Wiggins

@Crimsonorblue22 That was a really cool video! Awesome seeing Wigs up there! I am only a couple hours south of where they are holding the pan am games…I think. Wish I could go. Maybe one day.

wrwlumpy

Looks like Wigs has added 15 Lbs. of Muscle.

https://twitter.com/sheilamikailli/status/623674638464237568

drgnslayr

@wrwlumpy

I know some people still support the Love trade… but I’m going to enjoy watching the Cavs and LeBron hide under their couches in the coming years when they get totally called out on one of the biggest screw-ups since Bowie was taken over Jordan in the draft.

Kcmatt7

@drgnslayr It was a HORRIBLE trade for several reasons:

Wiggins will have a better career than Love. He is clearly the next superstar in the league.
He would have been cheaper than Love for about 4 years.
They would have been more versatile on offense as you could go “small” putting Lebron at the 4 and not actually lose any size. Or you could go “BIG” and have FOUR 6’8 guys or taller. And if that isn’t scary I don’t know what is.
Wiggins would have had plenty of time to develop as Kyrie and Lebron were both hurt at the beginning of the season. Plenty of games where he would have been the main threat and had to develop the killer instinct he got in Minnesota.
Cavs love to play in transition. Who is better in transition? Love or Wiggins.
Your defense is unquestionably better with Wiggins. Love Brings nothing to the table in that arena. You could put Bron Bron on the best player and Wigs on the 2nd best and vice versa. Having two 6’9 uber-wings isn’t even fair!

That’s all I could think of. I’m sure you guys could come up with more, but that is at least my take on why they totally F’d up.

drgnslayr

@Kcmatt7

I think one huge factor is that Wigs is the perfect offensive addition for the Cavs because he is tailored made for running ISOs. Clear out a side, or a lane or the baseline for Andrew. This would have taken a great deal of pressure off of LeBron and Kyrie. Andrew represented one more guy that could take over a game.

Not sure they would have beat GS, but I bet they would have given them a run for their money with Wigs. Even though Wigs is still green, with his athleticism I could have seen him get the nod to defend Steph after Kyrie went down. Kyrie did a great job of shutting down Steph and I bet Wigs would have done a good job. Might even have him out front, sort of as a PG, even though LeBron was primarily running the offense from up top after Kyrie went down.

JayHawkFanToo

@Kcmatt7 @drgnslayr

I will have to politely disagree with you both. We live in a world of “here and now” and “what have you done for me lately” and Love was the present and Wiggins is the future. Unlike College teams, a NBA owner with deep pockets can build a championship caliber team with smart trades, upgrades and free agents and most teams use pretty much the same business model (with financial restrictions) to build a team for the upcoming season not a few years down the road. The only team in the NBA that has officially stated that they have long term plan to build the team is the 76ers and to a lesser extent the Knicks…how is that working out for them? Most would say, not well at all.

There is almost universal agreement that with a healthy Love and Kyrie, the Cavaliers would have beaten the Warriors. The one thing that money can’t but is unforeseen injuries; it happens and changes all plans at all levels…look at KU, with a healthy Embiid KU is a Final Four team, but he got injured and KU was left bare inside resulting in a quick exit.

drgnslayr

@JayHawkFanToo

“There is almost universal agreement that with a health Love and Kyrie, the Cavaliers would have beaten the Warriors.”

I think that is strictly hypothetical. I do think Kyrie was a huge loss. But for the offense Love is capable of you have to weigh that against his downright sh*tty defense. He would have been exploited as much as he would have exploited, especially considering that a big weapon for GS if footwork and footspeed, not exactly Love’s forte.

I thought Tristan Thompson played extremely well and offered a huge kick on rebounds, especially on offensive rebounds.

I know we live in an “instant gratification” period… but we are talking about THIS year’s playoffs, and if they had Wigs!

Crimsonorblue22

@drgnslayr could care less what coulda been w/cavs! Wigs is thriving and growing w/the wolves. They have some new young blood(wolves like), and kg to lead the pack. Wigs has put on 15 lbs and looks like he’s working hard!! Hungry!

drgnslayr

@Crimsonorblue22

Don’t mistake me for a Cavs fan. I like to harp on it just to keep pushing it on the Cavs. I hope to be “rubbing this in” for at least another decade!

clevelandjayhawk

I like to think that the trade (lebron probably ordered) lead to the cavs losing in the finals, cleveland is already cursed sports wise, but the #Wigginscurse could be remembered when Wigs is the MVP every year.

On a side note the cavs took Bennet over Noel and BMac, then traded him also for Love.

REHawk

Well, it did appear that Cleveland’s front office gave LeBron the green light to pick his own teammates, then pretty much coach the squad throughout much of the season. For whatever reasons, the scheme ultimately failed, though it worked quite well until the two key injuries. Wigs probably was fortunate to move into a situation wherein he was allowed to grow out of his teens w/o super stresses to win games or dance to the frantic tyranny of The Established Superstar.

Crimsonorblue22

@REHawk well said!

elpoyo

Cleveland/Lebron’s ultimate goal was to win a championship and take away the freak injury to love, i’m pretty sure they would have won it all. So, the trade was the right move esp since no one knew what they were getting with Wiggins.

i personally wouldn’t have done it and kept Wiggins- but for whatever reason- either Wiggin’s not so stellar performance while @ KU or maybe Chalmer’s really turned him off on KU…Lebron wanted to go the other direction.

I wouldn’t have done it, but can’t blame cleveland- they wanted to win and did what they thought was the right thing @ that point in time.

if they did win a championship, everyone on this board would be much quieter or singing a different tune.

Crimsonorblue22

@elpoyo but they didn’t, and meanwhile Wigs keeps getting stronger!

JayHawkFanToo

@Crimsonorblue22

but…the trades were not the reason why they didn’t win, like it has been implied in many posts, injuries were the real reason and that is something that cannot be planned. Look at Oklahoma, they had assembled a Championship contender and then injuries to Ibaka, Westbrooke, most of all Durant and even Collison, made them into an also run.

Th trade worked out well for Wiggins, who is with a team where he was given lots of playing time to move up the learning curve with little or no pressure; a perfect spot for a talented yet inexperienced player. Had he stayed in Cleveland and much like Mario in Miami, he would have been at the receiving end of LeBron’s bad moods. No question the LeBron is the best player in the world right now, and when he is done he will be top 3 of all-time…maybe even the best, but as a teammate he is very…shall we say…high-maintenance?

drgnslayr

@JayHawkFanToo

“when he is done he will be top 3 of all-time…”

I’m curious who you have in that top 3? Wilt, Michael J, and LeBron?

I respect and admire LeBron’s game. Hard not to. But I’m not sure where to put him amongst the greats of basketball. Not sure I could put him in the top 3. But not to take anything away from LeBron.

What factors are most-important in determining the top 3? Career stats? Eye test? Importance to the team? Monumental performances?

clevelandjayhawk

@JayHawkFanToo Top 3? Best all time? Not so sure about that… Wilt #1 I have about 5-10 guys in front of Lebron. Its a fun debate, but my opinion is if LBJ is the best or top 3 player of all time, then why cant he win a championship without making a damn all star team?

Crimsonorblue22

@JayHawkFanToo the only thing I care about in that scenario is Wigs and his development.

Makeshift

I wouldn’t call LeBron’s Miami teams “all-star” - Dwayne Wade was the only other true superstar on that team. I like Bosh, but he wasn’t always a high-producer, and they never had a real good point guard (sorry but LeBron and Wade made Mario look better than he is). And we’re now starting to see Wade take the path of Kobe late in his career… The success of those teams was largely due to LeBron with Wade as the sidekick; every good team has a good supporting cast.

JhawkAlum

I don’t know about top 3 but Lebron is definitely top 5.

Jordan, Wilt, Oscar Robinson or Lebron (those are interchangeable), and Kareem.

I’m not sure how you can keep Lebron out of the top 5.

I could go on and on about this one. Jordan is the greatest ever. But he’s not untouchable. Couldn’t win with an average team but got help then took over the league.

I always find it amusing that people say “Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem are easily top 5”. And they just happened to play around the time the media exploded and just happened that they were the ones they watched growing up. Get some perspective people! 4 of the greatest players to ever play the game just happened to play in the same decade by coincidence? Come on now.

elpoyo

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

but they didn’t, and meanwhile Wigs keeps getting stronger!

wig would be getting stronger no matter what. Not sure what your point is here.

this comment reminds me of a typical MU trash fan…KU didn’t win the Natl championship, meanwhile, MU keeps on getting stronger.

Crimsonorblue22

@elpoyo Ewww! I don’t think Wigs would have developed as fast w/Lebron coaching the team.

clevelandjayhawk

@JhawkAlum I like Russel and a few others more, but top 6-8 is easy

JayHawkFanToo

@clevelandjayhawk

You make a point and then immediately contradict it. You talk about James not winning a title without and all-star team and then you have Wilt at #1…How many titles did Wilt win? Two, the same as LeBron…and Mario Chalmers…and they are still playing with a chance of getting more; Bill Russel has 11.

The knock on Chamberlain is that he had great individual stats but his teams always lost. He played against Bill Russel and the Celtic 8 playoff series and each time he had better stats than Russell but the Celtics won 7 of the 8 series. Makes you think, doesn’t it? This is one of the reason why many rank Russel ahead of Chamberlain and cite that he made his teams better.

At this time, Michael Jordan is probably the top player but with a good run in the remainder of his playing days, LeBron can catch him. I don’t care much for LeBron as an individual but as a player, he is not only great but he is an athletic freak as well. He is the only player since Magic that can play all 5 position competently.

I just browsed over several “top xx NBA players of all time” rankings and none has Wilt at #1, many don’t even have him in the tops 5. As much as you and I like Wilt, the rest of the world does not seem to thinks he is the best of all time.

JayHawkFanToo

@elpoyo

I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. At Cleveland, Wiggins would not have had as much playing time as he had last season with the Wolves and he would have not developed nearly as much as he did.

elpoyo

@JayHawkFanToo said:

@elpoyo

I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. At Cleveland, Wiggins would not have had as much playing time as he had last season with the Wolves and he would have not developed nearly as much as he did.

True, but take love out, and put wiggins in…with Kyrie’s injury, Wiggins playing time would have increased dramatically in the playoffs…and the experience he would have gotten…playoffs and the finals- you can’t recreate that and even with Kyrie out and wiggins in, Cavs chances of winning it all become very very doable. IMO they would have won the playoffs with that setup

JayHawkFanToo

@elpoyo

Ah, yes…and if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle. Way too many hypothetical situations and assumptions. My point was simply that “development-wise,” Wiggins ended up in a much better situation with the Wolves than he would have been with the Cavs. I am sure that we can go back and forth on this issue and probably will end up in the same place…agree to disagree?

clevelandjayhawk

@JayHawkFanToo Wilt- They had to chagne the rules because of him…goaltending, 3 sec lane, etc. Russel had how many hall of famers on his teams?

Lebron is good, but not anywhere near top 5, in my opinon. Thats all this is, opinions.

I respectfully disagree with you, Wilt is the greatest basketball player of all time. Maybe not the best winner, but he made them change the rules of basketball.

jaybate 1.0

@JayHawkFanToo

Cleveland hung in with a ton of injuries even without Wigs.

With Wigs, and a few less injuries, maybe even just with Wigs and the same injuries, Cleveland almost certainly would be hanging a banner.

I don’t see how Wigs would not have made Cleveland sharply better than they were during the play-offs.

And careers tend to go better with championships won.

I reckon a championship would make Wigs an even hotter property than he already is.

Wigs increasingly appears to have been sand bagging at KU.

He apparently could have stepped in and had a very good season with any team in the NBA, I reckon.

Playing with Lebron?

My god, Wigs would hardly have been guarded at all much of the time with the overshifting and help needed to keep Lebron under wraps; that could only have helped Wigs.

Wigs might have scored quite a bit more on Cleveland than in the land of Chainsaw Ice Sculptures and no Lebrons.

It only seems logical that a player’s scoring, or at least scoring efficiency, goes up when they get to play with a great player, instead of being the focus of another team’s defense, while playing for a weak team.

Right?

JayHawkFanToo

@clevelandjayhawk

Please note that I wrote…

"At this time, Michael Jordan is probably the top player."

This is by no means a statement of fact or even an endorsement, but simply and observation based on what the prevailing opinion is. Also, the basketball rules were still in flux at the time, as the game had just started to take off. Had Jabbar or Olajuwon or another similar player would have come along at that time instead of Wilt, chances are the rules would have been changed as well. This by no means diminishes what Wilt accomplished and he should, by all means, be in the conversation for top player.

Again, we all have our own opinions and as such, they are not right or wrong. I am not saying that Wilt is or isn’t the best player of all time, frankly, I don’t know who I would pick. All I am saying is that the prevailing opinion (and by not means absolute) is that Jordan is at the top. Retired players can no longer do anything to change that, so the only active player with a chance of doing enough to overtake Jordan appears to be LeBron. That’s all.

justanotherfan

To properly assess the trade, you’re asking three questions.

First, how does this help us right now, because the long term is hard to pin down in sports?

Second, what do we have to give up that could otherwise help us right now?

Third, is there another way to get what we need without giving anything (or as much) up?

Now let’s answer those questions.

Cleveland got Love, a top 15 player in the NBA. That helps them become much more offensively diverse because Love can score both in the post and on the perimeter, and, for all his shortcomings as an individual defender, he is one of the best rebounders in the league on both ends. He would certainly have helped in the Finals because unlike Tristan Thompson and Mozgov, Love is an actual low post scorer. He would have really made Golden State think about constantly playing small because he could have dominated inside against smaller defenders, and he is such a skilled passer that tons of open threes would have been there for the taking, not to mention the gravity he creates in the post. GS played the entire Finals guarding the post one on one with smaller guys. They don’t do that if Love is on the floor. So you get one of the best 10 offensive players in the NBA, and an elite rebounder with defensive deficiencies. Pretty good.

So what are you giving up? I’m going to focus on Wiggins and Bennett here, even though there are other parts to the trade. Bennett had what most people consider to be the worst rookie season of a number one pick in at least 15 years. Kwame Brown was better. Bennett was out of shape, then ineffective. That’s what Cleveland saw from Bennett. He wasn’t hurt. He was just bad. The entire league saw that. There were a lot of people questioning whether Bennett could actually play in the NBA after that rookie season - not if he would become a good player - if he could stay in the league. That’s HUGE when evaluating trade value. Bennett was on a bullet train to Bust-ville. So his value was very limited.

Adding in Wiggins, the #1 pick that everyone agrees has tons of potential can get you a top 15 player. So now the question is “When will Wiggins become a top 20 NBA player?” As a rookie, certainly not, doubtful his second year, either. Best case scenario, Wiggins becomes a top 20 NBA player in his third season. Love is a top 15 player right now.

So Cleveland knows that Wiggins may be an MVP candidate in five years, and will likely be a potential all star in three years, but probably will be just a rotation level or starter level player the next two years. That matters, because Cleveland’s championship window likely closes (or remains only slightly ajar) once Lebron passes 33. You get four shots with the James/Love/Irving group (including last season) with all four coming with those guys as potentially elite players. You only get 2 shots with a James/Wiggins/Irving combo all as elite players because Wiggins is not yet an elite NBA player.

Here are Wiggins’ lines of Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals and Blocks, broken out by month for his rookie season, along with a comp for that line:

November - 12.3/3.8/1.0/1.1/0.5 (Kyle Korver without the 3s)

December - 14.6/4.1/1.8/0.9/0.6 (James Posey about 10 years ago, but with fewer steals)

January - 19.8/4.6/2.5/1.4/0.6 - Reggie Miller in the mid 90’s, with more rebounds, but with fewer 3s, assists and a much lower shooting %.

February - 16.8/4.8/2.3/1.0/0.8 - Cedric Maxwell of the early 80’s Celtics, but with fewer rebounds

March - 17.9/4.8/1.8/0.8/0.5 - Cedric Maxwell again

April - 23.3/6.0/4.0/1.0/0.9 - Young Ray Allen around 2000, 2001

Overall - 16.9/4.6/2.1/1.0/0.6 - Cedric Maxwell is close, but was always a better rebounder than Wiggins was last year. That season doesn’t exactly scream all time great. Maxwell was exactly what Wiggins projected as last year - a solid starter on a title caliber team (which Maxwell was) but not a star by any means.

Could Cleveland have landed Love or his equivalent without giving up what they did? Absolutely not. There’s just no way Minnesota does the deal (surrender top 15 player) for anything less than Wiggins and Bennett.

So there are the three answers. Wiggins will eventually be an outstanding player, but by the time he is that guy, Lebron will be 32 or 33 and Cleveland will be fading.

JayHawkFanToo

@jaybate-1.0

See my reply to @elpoyo.

By the way, when you say that: “Wigs increasingly appears to have been sand bagging at KU.” In my opinion, you are not being fair to Wiggins and you diminish what he accomplished at KU. Wiggins did exactly what Coach Self asked him to do and he did it well and you never heard him complain or second guess the coaching staff. He had the best freshman season of any player ever at KU, better than even Danny Manning’s freshman season…that is quite a feat, don’t you think. Obviously we disagree on this so there is no need to reply, let’s each of us have our own opinion and move on.

drgnslayr

This whole business of “top whatever” in the league is mostly a popularity contest. That’s why no one mentions Kobe Bryant. His career highlights and awards exceeds LeBron’s in some categories, lower in others… still…

5× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2009–2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
17× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2015)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002, 2012)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)
Los Angeles Lakers all-time leading scorer
Naismith Prep Player of the Year (1996)

The league has had plenty of superstar players, all playing under different conditions. Impossible to just compare apples to apples. Without a good PG, a player typically won’t build a great stat line.

LeBron is pretty good under the eye test. But it relates mostly to his size and that he can do quite a bit for a guy his size. But skill wise… if you take out his size as a factor, he doesn’t really dominate anything else. His ball handling is good, not great. Shooting… good not great. Defending… good not great (when you toss out his height as a consideration).

JayHawkFanToo

@drgnslayr

Bryant is at the end of his career while LeBron still has a few year to surpass Bryant…and I like Bryant a lot more than I do LeBron.

As far as defense…LeBron has consistently finished in the top 5 in the vote for Defensive POY and twice he has been the runner up. He has also been in the NBA All-defensive-team just about every year. He is currently the only player in the NBA that routinely defends all 5 positions. LeBron is not just a good defender he is one of the top defensive players in the League, as the vote for Defensive POY and inclusion in the All-defensive team appear to indicate.

drgnslayr

@JayHawkFanToo

Good points! I think when most people think MVPs and top players they think of offense… but what may separate LeBron most is his quality defense riding along side his overwhelming offensive abilities.

JayHawkFanToo

@drgnslayr

Jordan used to get the same criticism and he was a perennial All-Defensive-Team and Defensive POY one year, but people just thought of him not as a defender but as scorer and ball hog…which he also was…:(

JhawkAlum

@drgnslayr you can’t take away what kind of player Lebron is because of his size and speed. That’s like taking away Jordan because he was more athletic than everyone else. They both are superior athletes to everyone on the court.

The frustrating part when talking to Jordan lovers is they want to hang championships as a measurement to being the greatest player. But if you bring up Russell, it’s because of the all star team he had. Their equation for championships/pure talent just happens to match up perfectly with who they watched growing up.

If you think championships measure the greatest, than it’s Russell. If it’s pure basketball talent, then you can’t automatically count out Lebron.

I openly admit, I grew watching Jordan and absolutely hated him. If people call Lebron arrogant, they must not remember Jordan’s post game comments and commercials. But personal opinions about the individual shouldn’t matter when discussing performance on the court.

When people ask “Which Lebron are we going to see? Magic or Jordan”? 2 of the top 3 players of all time in many people’s opinion, how can you keep him out of the top five?

drgnslayr

@JhawkAlum

Good post!

It just isn’t possible that we judge these guys without our own personal biases getting involved. I definitely consider LeBron one of the greats. I just don’t know how to pick a list and try to defend it and not have it sound like I’m just picking my personal favorites that I like the most, or who I relate to most concerning style of play, or…

Putting LeBron in the top 3 means (for most of us anyways) putting him in company with MJ and Wilt. He may deserve to be there, but I’m not ready to discount the rest of the pile of greats in the process.

The closest thing I have towards a list is my top 2: Wilt and Michael. Who do I pick as #1? Got to go with Jordan. But if I was picking which player was the most-superior during his time, I might just flip over to Wilt.

I’m okay with my top 2 and still feel like I’m giving the proper credit to the rest of the crowd by not having them up there. So I have 1 and 2, and I sort of pile about 10 players in the next group, which would definitely include LeBron, and he sure wouldn’t be #10!

Is LeBron better than Bird? I can’t answer that. Both incredible players with a very different skill set. Should we favor athleticism more than court intelligence? I know, I know… LeBron certainly doesn’t lack basketball IQ, but Bird was a rare species of bird.

I don’t think we could find all the right footage… but I’d feel better ranking individual highlight plays. It would be great to find some of the best clips of all these top players and rank them… say… the Top 100!

What is the all-time greatest play in NBA history? I put it to all of you. If it is that great, there must be a clip of it to post from youtube! Bring on the gold and glitter to the fabulous careers of all these magnificent players!