Tonight's game
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@kjayhawks said in Tonight's game:
@BigBad Self having zero accountability for this roster is laughable. We have 3 or 4 years guy…… they SUCK! We gave away 2 good recruits to get Hunt that would be 3 year players right now and are better than Hunt/KJ most nights. Hunt was lazy as hell last year but still brought back. AJ Storr is on is 3rd school in as many years and a known to half ass it. Self wanted him and he’s here.
“ZERO accountability”
What do you want? Him to be fired today? Send back his salary? What exactly? You don’t think the guy is embarrassed? He’s insanely competitive but all of his characteristics that make him a great coach don’t fit the transfer portal and soft kids era.
I’m not naive and understand the end is near. However, I believe he deserves more respect then what some people are showing.
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I think the issue is more with conflicting opinions in our echo chamber. We want other people to hold Bill more accountable. Imo.
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@dylans ah my bad man! I just assumed it was the last 3 seasons. Let me go back and look.
I think my point is the last 3 points have been a rapid and sustained drop
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@BeddieKU23 said in Tonight's game:
Self mailed in the game starting 3 bigs. That was a new low for him
Was a blatant middle finger to the fan base. Starting 3 centers and a non scoring threat PG.
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I’m still lost on 3 things still, they did BYU film prep, scouting and game preparation and came to the conclusion that starting 3 Bigs against a team that shoots a high % of 3’s and spaces the floor schematically was the best matchup to win this game. That seriously cannot be the outcome, but it literally happened.
I don’t believe the coaches put the players in the best position to win the game last night. The players quit as well for the most part. That level of play is not acceptable at any College Program, but we witnessed what felt like Rock Bottom.
We’ve seen poor play that leads to blowout losses. This was far beyond any of those kinds of games. You could see the turmoil in body language and reactions to plays. It was like the entire team was given a half speed pill before. There is actually a serious problem going on within this team.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Tonight's game:
I’m still lost on 3 things still, they did BYU film prep, scouting and game preparation and came to the conclusion that starting 3 bigs against a team that shoots a high % of 3’s and spaces the floor schematically was the best matchup to win this game. That seriously cannot be the outcome but it literally happened.
I don’t believe the coaches put the players in the best position to win the game last night. The players quit as well for the most part. That level of play is not acceptable at any College Program but we witnessed what felt like Rock Bottom.
Yes anyone with basketball knowledge can see we aren’t running correct line ups to succeed, our game plans are bad. Yes the players do some of the blame but the head guy that wanted them here and preps them deserves more
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Kenpom dropped KU 7 spots and offense went down 14 more spots to the #59 ranked offense. Still #6 defense (only 1 place down after giving up 91).
The Analytics are probably off on both ends tbh
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It would be nice if Self would pick his 7 guys and just run with them the rest of the year. The rest can sow dissent from the bench, instead of sabotaging the team unwittingly thru sloppy play. I just don’t think there are 7 “KU” guys on the roster.
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I agree, I would simply start with benching Hunter and seeing where the next 4-5 games go.
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We could play even with their 3rd-string lineup.
It looks now like every game dips lower. If this keeps up we lay eggs the remaining games and Self declines an invitation to the NIT. At this point, I’d hope he declines an invite to March Madness. We might have the worst loss in tournament history.
It should appear clear to everyone this is more than a few bad players. Heck, Juan and KJ played big roles on our championship team.
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@dylans said in Tonight's game:
@approxinfinity KUs three double digit loss seasons (so far in the last twenty five years!!!) are last year, 7 years ago, and 12 years ago. So no it’s not cherry picking to include all of Bill’s career and a bit of Roy’s to get to a quarter century of sustained success. If I go back further it get a bit darker only highlighting how good off all these newcomers to KU basketball that have only known Bill Self as the coach have had it.
Bill Self 3/22 years with double digit losses. (One more on the way)
Roy Williams 5/15 years with double digit losses.
Larry Brown 3/5 years with double digit losses.
Ted Owens 8/19 years with double digit losses. Three years below .500
I think this is really helpful for perspective.
The pit that I’m feeling is that it feels like the blow-out wins have become fewer, the 1-2 possession victories have increased in frequency, and the number of AND margin of defeats have grown. So it’s the sense of a trend that’s getting me.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Tonight's game:
I agree, I would simply start with benching Hunter and seeing where the next 4-5 games go.
If I’m Bill Self, this is without knowing what the legal terms are of the NIL. I’m kicking Hunt and Storr off the team as soon as we get back. Clear out your lockers and get the hell outta here. We have 7 guys that care and can play Start Juan, Shak, Zeke, KJ and Flory. Learn some defense and muddy up the games over the next few weeks and tell Rylen he is on Americas shortest leash. Use Diggy and Rylen off the bench and Justin Cross to use if need be for blows for KJ and Flory while Zack is out. You can also run 4 guards most of the time.
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@kjayhawks i think we are at a point where everyone is shook and has their hands dirty. How do you decide to punt AJ but not Rylen? It doesnt seem to be by attitude but by performance. I dont think we can do that.
Bill needs to play the right guys, and figure out how to look up into a 7’2 paul bunyanesque ax murderers eyes and convince him that becoming college basketballs most expensive practice player can be a positive experience for everyone.
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I like Bill’s suggestion during his press conference ,let’s just go home and get away from each other and go get on your mother’s milk for a while and then come back in a Kumbaya circle
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You can’t enjoy the highs, if you aren’t hurt by the lows too. Welcome to the bipolar life of a normal basketball fan. The drug of Bill Self’s dominance has worn off this year. How will we handle the withdrawal?!? Sports sobriety, Ugg. Curl up in the fetal position and cry? Full body spasms as it works its way thru our system? Uncontrollable sweating and Tourette’s like swearing when watching a ball game.
Well, I’ll be damned if the hopium doesn’t have me hooked for at least another year…
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Ooga-Chaka Ooga-Ooga
Ooga-Chaka Ooga-Ooga
I can’t stop this feeling
Deep inside of me
Bill, you just don’t realize
What you do to me
When you hold players
In your arms so tight
I just want to know
That everything’s alright
I’m hooked on a feeling
I’m high on believing
That you will set us free.
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Lol
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@dylans hopium! Lol, good stuff
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@approxinfinity I think Griffen is much more engaged most of the time
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Ok look it’s easy to blame Coach Self , nothing to it & yes he IS – - ( part )OF the problem I think Most- -not all , but MOST people acknowledge that, BUT to imply from some here to say that Coach is the ( Majority ) part of this problem is just Wrong, nothing but Wrong , no other way simpler bottom that’s jest not true/WRONG
Coach Self can work these guys to death/ practicing on these glaring screw ups all day all night. During the game he can draw up the plays he want’s run-- he can diagram defensive schemes he wants run- offensive schemes he wants run -but at the end of the day it’s THE PLAYERS Themselves that have to EXECUTE these things, they have to accept responsibility, Coach can draw them up in the Locker room or timeout but thes kids that are now getting paid and paid well bottom line they have to work it out and Execute What Coach drew up/talked about
Sitting Screens-- - Getting pick & roll done right - -Dribbling the dam ball without dribbling it of your own foot or leg time after time after time. You have to a least try and defend instead of worry when we do get the ball wondering how fast I can jack up my shot. -Carrying through on what he want sis up to the Players to do NOT THE COACH, he can’t do it for you
We have people here bitching about well he isn’t giving this guy any minutes and or that guy any minutes— How when Coach gives them those minutes they get in-- sure enough they either throw some ridiculous pass-- or shot – or play the classic Ole defense. Then people bitch he plays favorites and yanks them right out, saying he just keeps playing these ame three
Not sure how close your watching the game but I sure see Dickinson- - KJ- & Juan all getting pulled a lot faster now then they was-- they screw up - -they come out, that’s Coach’s frustration- -The biggest one’s just playing so bad Dickinson & Storr- -You got Dickinson last night perfect examp;e He FINALY makes a three so all of a sudden he comes down and jacks up like three/four more like all of a sudden he is Steph Curry. In this game this was way to fast paced for him, this is a game where Flory should of been playing more and Dickinson backing hem-- lot more athletic faster, --Storr ? - -Storr ?- -nothing left to say about him
Yes for sure these guys getting paid now , and some paid really well - -no different then you and me in our regular 40 hour week job ew had to be accountable for things - we screwed something up - --w had to take responsibility for it & take the heat. - These kids are no different, no way do they get a pass.- - They are going to learn - - It’s a cold hard world out there and if they don’t get their crap together it is going to chew them up and spit them out period The cuddling time is over, they need to stand up and act like they got a pair
Gonna be real interesting how much of the backing they have at the Phog Saturday- won’t take much to start hear some booing trickle out if they play like dog crap- - AGAIN – so yes the players play a huge part and have to take responsibility not all Coach
9
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@SlimShaddy54 this sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy, of course they play poorly if they lack confidence, motivation and cohesion
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There is no lineup that fixes this. The spirit of this team is broken. I don’t think it’s fair to blast a few players placing blame.
What can we expect moving forward? With my limited experience of seeing teams broken at this level I’d say expect the unexpected. But in this case, I’m not expecting these guys to have the ability to string together 40 consecutive minutes of execution. I expect everything to be very stiff and laborious.
I previously said there should be a performance clause in their NIL contracts. I guess indirectly this exists already because most, or all, their NIL values have dropped and they continue making new deals.
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@drgnslayr said in Tonight's game:
We could play even with their 3rd-string lineup.
It looks now like every game dips lower. If this keeps up we lay eggs the remaining games and Self declines an invitation to the NIT. At this point, I’d hope he declines an invite to March Madness. We might have the worst loss in tournament history.
It should appear clear to everyone this is more than a few bad players. Heck, Juan and KJ played big roles on our championship team.
The worst loss in NCAAT history clearly belongs to Marquette on the biggest stage when we were beating them by 40 points, doubling their point total throughout almost all of the 2nd half. They had a dude named Duane Wade so they weren’t chumps!
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@drgnslayr said in Tonight's game:
There is no lineup that fixes this. The spirit of this team is broken. I don’t think it’s fair to blast a few players placing blame.
What can we expect moving forward? With my limited experience of seeing teams broken at this level I’d say expect the unexpected. But in this case, I’m not expecting these guys to have the ability to string together 40 consecutive minutes of execution. I expect everything to be very stiff and laborious.
I previously said there should be a performance clause in their NIL contracts. I guess indirectly this exists already because most, or all, their NIL values have dropped and they continue making new deals.
I think it WAS fair to point out some of the earlier issues and focus on what one or two players/coaches/etc. could do to address some weaknesses and amplify some strengths but for it to get to where we are now it is such a total failure that no one can really escape blame. Everyone is responsible for this. There is still strangely a lot of basketball left. Seems to me there are three real possibilities.
- Everyone stays checked out and hating each other and we lose out. I don’t see how a team that plays like they played last night would win another game. (I hope to god this isn’t the path they choose)
- There is some form of reconciliation that brings the guys together to spark more energy in some upcoming games. In this scenario we can still win some home games, maybe pick off Colorado on the road. Limp into the tournament and maybe win a game two at most. (this seems most likely at this point)
- This team players and coaches included, does some SERIOUS soul searching and has it out until they get to some consensus. With rekindled effort, adjusted scheme, and a real passion for the product they put on the court, there is still a chance for a run. There are always the legends of those players only meetings that changed the season, but this team needs more than that. Real change has to happen at ALL levels for anything close to a “successful season” being the end result. To me an elite 8 run would be successful. Win 3 tournament games. anything else is really special. (this seems like the least likely scenario at this point)
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@dylans said in Tonight's game:
You can’t enjoy the highs, if you aren’t hurt by the lows too. Welcome to the bipolar life of a normal basketball fan. The drug of Bill Self’s dominance has worn off this year. How will we handle the withdrawal?!? Sports sobriety, Ugg. Curl up in the fetal position and cry? Full body spasms as it works its way thru our system? Uncontrollable sweating and Tourette’s like swearing when watching a ball game.
Well, I’ll be damned if the hopium doesn’t have me hooked for at least another year…
Well said!
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Blame game!
Juan - this guy receives all kinds of accolades from other coaches, including Bill. He has his strengths and weaknesses. We’ve all wished for a different Juan… scoring more. Someone correct me, but I think his scoring is slightly up and we do see him shooting more. Are we sure we want him shooting more now? Is he to blame on our meltdown? I’d say NO!
KJ - I’ve been on his case all year to rebound better. After his shoulder injury and Self coming down on him, he has shown more energy and had a few great games. Is he at fault for the meltdown? NO!
Hunter - he has hit a bad spot… missing close to the basket. And his defense is atrocious. It’s always been bad. His problem has always been (and remains) how he is used. That guy should live in the paint on both sides of the ball. He’s the same player he was last year and last fall. We’ve had all this time to mold defense around him, as well as build offense around him staying in the low post. It’s not going to happen at this point. Is Hunter the cause of our meltdown? NO!
Zeke - NO!
Flory - NO!
AJ - never really got on track and still has missed assignments, but at times he also offers small sparks, like a few key rebounds. His impact is small. Is he the cause of the meltdown? NO! He’s just not offering a real net gain.
Raylen - he’s pretty much like AJ but more a deep threat. NO!
David - NO!
Could ALL these guys perform at a higher energy? Of course. Do we know the inner workings of this team responsible for the low energy? I’d say NO! Do these guys have no ability to play together? NO! We’ve seen periods when they came together on defense so we know it’s possible for them to execute as a team. Does this team simply not like each other? There could be small issues here, but that is typical on most teams. Have we seen big problems here? NO!
My biggest complaint on Self has always been his inability to cheerlead his teams. It’s not his style. I will say I doubt there are many coaches in this country that care more for their players! Bill’s methods for teaching and controlling his teams does not seem based on him being a big, positive motivator. He’ll never be a Bruce Pearl! Might this be the biggest issue that has allowed this team to sink? I’d say… definitely YES!
I’ll put it like this. If Bruce Pearl took the helm right now to complete the season I believe we’d see an instant spark and improvement in play! Bill’s kryptonite is on full display right now! This team “got away from him” and he doesn’t have the skill set to pump them back to fight!
There is a very good chance this gets a lot uglier moving forward. I hope people don’t go venting out on any of these players. There is no way you can say a player or two caused this collapse!
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I appreciate this @drgnslayr – I never thought that Hunter was a team cancer, just that his recruitment was a mistake and his usage has been atrocious. This all comes back to Bill. But I appreciate your willingness to move past the “structure of the roster” blame, and focus on the bleeding edge of where Bill actually could right the ship if he met up with the ghost of Hunter S Thompson and tripped balls in Tijuana for a week, then came home.
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@approxinfinity they have checked it in, Coach’s not trustin players- - players not trusting Coach’s confrontations among players in the locker room.- -Hell Self walked out of the locker room after the BYU game.
Also for the first time EVE since Coach Self has been here someone ask Self in post game -how do they re-group and get things turned around ?- - Bill’s response after a second - - — -I DON’T KNOW , we will fly back get in around 5 in the morning and then rest and we got to get away from one another the players getting away from other players, players getting away from Coach’s & Coach’s getting away from players. There is so much conflict in that locker room right now. - Zeke yelling at the Coach’'s Juan shutting the team down.
I watched a KU pod cast off you tube-- - -it’s called- - -Could be wrong, pretty good pod cast but they brought up a question- -good question and the others response to it is what I have been thinking and it was same with them. The question was how much longer does Coach Self stick around? They said ONE - - ONE more year , which I fully believe too, but Nick came back and ask and was a petty good point he says - -OK if you seriously think Self is here for only ONE more year then it’s had to cross your mind that THIS could be his last year.
Makes sense with the way this Season has played out – last Season has played out and with this fricken NIL & Portal Bill might just join along with all these other big name Coachs and say screw this I’m not doing it-- just call it quits not worth it --look at Roy Williams – - Coach K from Duke - - Jay Wright- - - Tony Bennett- - Jim Boeheim, they all said screw it- - they are tired of what College Basketball has become.
The guys on the pod cast too is that these College Coach’s don’t want to be held hostage by these big NIL players --which is exactly is happening, These kids don’t give a dam about the Schools history, the Name of the School, they just want to go to the highest bidder.- -A Kid that has that big bank money now he doesn’t care if they win or not- - he is getting his money- -he tells the Coach now trying to hold tehm hostage and say if you don’t play me 30 minutes- -I’ll just leave- -I’ll just move on to my next School and these Coach’s are tired of this crap
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@SlimShaddy54 If nothing else, this weeks happenings should have Goff clearing the war room table and starting the search, be it now or next year. Gotta hit a homerun.
