ISU Loss: The Good, The Bad, And The ... Positive
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HEM: good remarks, as usual.
Why did Alexander only play 14 min? Coach Self in his post game interview: “he did not have a motor tonight” - com’on man! He surely had a better motor than the other bigs…
Cliff: 6 rebounds and 6 points in 14 min Landon: 0 rebounds and 0 points in 19 min Jamari: 2 rebounds and 2 points in 15 min
Play Alexander more minutes!!!
Transition D was as poor as I have seen at KU in this game - embarrassing. We were surprised and poorly prepared, and did little to adjust after the first couple of run outs.
Coach burned all his time outs with 7-8 min left in the game. Was that really necessary?
Again, no O flow and in spite of good guard play, no creativity or game time adjustments in our stale offensive sets. Watch ISU and OU in their O and learn!
KU shot more threes than ISU! And we out-rebounded them 44-33!
We lost this one in transition D (+ 20 points for ISU in transition, mostly lay ups) and at the free throw line 10-26 FTA.
Discouraging but no time to panic. ISU was favored by 3.5 and won by 5…game on!
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Didn’t even watch the game tonite but felt compelled to reply because it’s so easy–same ol’ same.
First, Selden-- At this point, he’s just phoning it in. He’s to the point where he realizes Bill’s game will do nothing to showcase his talents so he’s just gonna bide his time (and not risk injury) and try his luck in the combines next spring. He’s already checked out.
Next, Lucas and Traylor–didn’t you just post last week about the end of “inside out?” If only. Unfortunately, the leopard can’t change his spots and Bill still thinks that’s where his bread is buttered.
And thirdly, Brannen Greene. Well, all I can say is, watching Phil Forte work so hard to get his shots last week just leaves me disillusioned and disappointed in Brannen Greene. Of course, it would help for the coach to recognize where his scoring potential is and gear his offense to get those scorers open.
You can trust in Self all you want, but given what we’ve seen so far (this year and in previous years) do you really think Bill’s gonna have this team prepared for an NCAA tournament run? I don’t.
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@jayhawk-007 Alexander looked like he was going to dominate inside in the 2nd half last night. No one on ISU can match up with his size if he gets the ball down low. And then we don’t see him play in the 2nd. I fully agree. Play Alexander!!!
I read on that other site this morning that this was “Thinking longterm, Self benches Alexander in second half”. What a crock of sh*t. Like most of us I thought this was one of our probably losses on the schedule but aren’t we past the point of the season for long term decisions? We are on the road in a game that if we win (which Alexander could only help us with) we take a 2 game lead in the Big 12 over the best teams in the conference. I don’t understand this at all. If Cliff isn’t playing with enough “motor” or “losing his man” then take him out of the game, cuss him out, sit him out for a timeout and then get him back in the game to correct his issues! I rarely if ever question Bill Self. He is the guy who gets paid millions to call the shots but I wholeheartedly disagree with Lucas being on the floor…ever. Mickelson is more productive and Alexander is obviously the guy who needs to be in the game. Alexander should be starting and we continue to watch him get disciplined. It is infuriating and on this one I blame Bill.
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Selden and Alexander: missing more than somewhat above the neckline. Lucas and Traylor: missing more than somewhat below the neckline. Greene and Self: who the hell knows? Not the most harmful loss on KU league schedule; but I came away feeling that this game could have been won.
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After-the-fact reflections: Subtract 15 from the combined minutes of Selden, Lucas, Traylor. Add those 15 to combined minutes of Graham and Alexander. SHAZAM!
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@HighEliteMajor Yes…I am one that had this down as a loss…and said that it would not hurt us, in theory, in the conference race. I commented on the live thread here that I was sick of seeing us being beat down the court…maddening! I also was going crazy that Cliff was not playing…then I read the article about Self’s reasons…I guess we’ll have to take it on faith that it will be good for Cliff, and the team, in the long run. I was thinking the same thing during our run at the end…our best lineup appeared to be Mason, Graham, Selden, Oubre, and Ellis. Lucas was totally out of place against ISU.
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@KUinLA said:
First, Selden-- At this point, he’s just phoning it in. He’s to the point where he realizes Bill’s game will do nothing to showcase his talents so he’s just gonna bide his time (and not risk injury) and try his luck in the combines next spring. He’s already checked out.
Really? Self’s game does nothing to showcase Wayne’s talents? First of all, I guess I’m curious as to what talents Wayne has that are being stymied by HCBS and his system. Outside shooting? No, that can’t be it, as Selden has shot more 3s than anyone on the team. Attacking the rim/dribble drive? No, Oubre & Mason seem to have no problem doing that in Self’s system, and the only problem Selden has “showcasing” that talent is that he has routinely clanged dunk attempts off of his own drives. Ball handling/passing/running the offense? No, he was given every opportunity to assume more of a “lead guard” role when Graham went out, yet he has shown to be fairly mediocre. Defense? Thought maybe this was where he could shine, and maybe elevate his game at that end of the floor to that of a lock-down perimeter defender. Instead he’s been up and down, with last night being one of his valleys while showing a complete lack of hustle and focus. Leadership? We all thought this could be “Wayne’s team”. Unfortunately, you have to step up and perform like one. General opportunity? No, despite a crowded perimeter Wayne has played the second most minutes on the team, trailing only Mason.
Really, what skill are you wanting to see that Selden possesses but think he’s been denied the opportunity?
Secondly, Selden has had plenty of games where he has successfully showcased the type of player he’s capable of being. Against Florida he scored 21. He had a stat stuffer game against Rhode Island where he went for 10 pts, 7 rebs, 4 asts, 2 blks, & 1 stl. The problem has been consistently getting quality performances out of him.
I know your reality is that Self sucks and is the cause of every shortcoming you perceive. I don’t worship the guy, and will readily acknowledge his actual failures or voice my concerns with any philosophies/strategies/moves that I disagree with. But I just don’t know what logic there is in saying Selden’s lack of success is because he thinks he can’t succeed in Self’s system.
Off the topic of Selden, but I’m not sure how posting the names “Lucas and Traylor” is evidence that Bill is still forcing the inside game. They played 19 & 15 minutes, respectively. Likely would have been less had Perry been able to play more than 7 first half minutes. Lucas attempted no shots, and Traylor attempted 5. Yeah…that stubborn Self. Trying to butter his bread with 5 shots from those guys! Again, no logic behind that. If anything, omitting Perry & Cliff, the two productive post players, and only citing the two that struggled (again, with very limited attempts) only serves to highlight your bias and undermine whatever point you were trying to make by simply saying “Lucas and Traylor”.
Losses frustrate me too. But as HEM stated, this wasn’t another Temple. ISU is a good team. I had this pegged as a loss going in. No shame in losing on the road to them.
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@HighEliteMajor @joeloveshawks @KUinLA
Alexander didn’t play because he couldn’t play defense. I believe a 3 pointer was made 3 times on him for not playing out on the perimiter. Hogue twice, Niang once, I believe Replay will confirm this. At this point I’m sick of Self sending him a message to him because of his “motor”. I’ll get more to Self in a minute.
To start from the top, @HighEliteMajor said it best, most expected to lose this game because in the end Iowa St. has this game penciled in every year now as their Super Bowl. It would have been huge to pull it out and we tried like heck in spurts to do that, but in the end the things that beat us will continue to beat us.
Defense: What can you say this was the poorest effort on D on all year. 50% shooting allowed, unlimited transition points. Perfect examples as ESPN showed, Oubre cuts the lead to 2 points with a monster dunk under the hoop, not even 3 seconds later McKay is dunking on the other end. You can rinse and repeat this statement at least 6-7 times. Selden totally blew his defensive assignments all night. It’s not like he’s an offensive rebound threat, for him to be beat consistently on D and giving up 3’s to Long that were daggers was just deflating to watch. Just another game in which you wonder what is going on with him. We had 4 days to prepare for this game and it was clear nobody payed any attention to Film assignments.
Coach Self: I’m putting a lot of this loss on him. I don’t care what anyone has to say but he was out coached tonight. I understand that when a starter gets 2 fouls, its hard to play him in the first half with risk of another. He should have played Ellis because our offense just puttered without him out there. He was in a rhythm with 7 points before getting yanked. Ellis was aggressive and besides the deficiencies he’s had all year played well enough for this team to win, but he didn’t have enough help.
What about playing Lucas 19 minutes. Please anyone but him, he’s not a KU caliber player. Not a single rebound for a post player get out of here. Greene 5 minutes, Alexander 14, Mickelson 5. What is he doing??
Now to the Cliff saga. I pointed out that Cliff blew defensive assignments and I believe that was why he didn’t play. I was unhappy with his effort guarding the perimeter but I would have lived with it for his production he was getting. He would have easily had a double double had he been in there. 6pts 6 rebounds, he could have stopped Dejean-Jones from getting 3 huge offensive rebounds.
Whatever point Self is making to Cliff at this point is negatively impacting this team. We rely on Cliff for Energy plays, the lobs, the putbacks, rebounds & blocks. When he is sitting he cant do any of that and his replacement (Lucas) is a turnover waiting to happen. This is where the stubborn Self comes out and its his biggest negative trait.
Individuals:
Mason was awesome, without him it would have been a blowout. What more can we say about our general. Ellis was aggressive, next game he will disappear. We should be used to this by now, Oubre was largely ineffective. He was basically their 6th man for a while as he clanked shot after shot. 10 misses and some were bunnies or shots he usually hits. Traylor, man when he plays bad he really helps us lose quick. He clanked a jumper (Why does he have the green light for jumpers) then on the other end they score. Then he got perfect position for a layup/dunk, whiffed air-balled from point blank, 3 seconds later Naz Long is making a 30 footer in transition. That 5 point swing was deflating. I’m not even going there with Selden. When he made shots he was fine, then he just disapears… Lucas, I’d rather play our walkons then watch him waste our time.
REFS: It was clear early that the “CHECK CLEARED”. Was it ESPN, was it the Mayor, was it the
I understand getting calls on the road is a tuff thing to get but man the unbalance in the first half calls and 2nd half calls left me baffled. Lucas was called for an offensive foul for getting held, great call ref. Lucas was called for a foul on the Mckay lob Dunk for what standing their while he jumped over him. Ellis got his 4th foul without touching Morris, then on the other end we get hacked by 2 players. Ellis was body slammed to the ground ala Ridley to Embiid with no call then Iowa St got a layup on the other end. Selden’s Charge was bogus. Niang would have fell had you thrown a penny at him. Obvious charge/ shouldn’t have been called in the situation because it was game over. How is an offensive player supposed to stop running to the hoop, Wayne is 230 pounds. Oubre was called for a charge and the player just ran in front of him while still moving, another baffler. The bald head ref called a travel on Cliff is the first half, he blew his whistle before he even moved. I could go on and on.
Time to regroup and hold serve against Oklahoma. They played us to a scrappy game last year and they only got better. Cousins and Hield will be fun to guard.
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@HighEliteMajor Dude, fully that was exactly how I felt. Although your version is quite a bit more technical and eloquent. I KNEW we werent going to win this game. I knew it. I knew it would be close too. 5 point loss. I also know our guys are tough, no quit indeed. What I didnt see coming was the ineffectiveness of our bigs beyond Perry, and the laziness of our defensive rotations. I thought our boys would have done better at that.
Are you going to call in to Hawk talk and press HCBS on the main issue at hand here? He is clearly a genius level coach but he needs to quit banging his head against the door to open it and turn the knob. He needs to let our offense loose. He needs to tailor his line ups and plan of attack based on the team he is facing instead of doggedly relying on Lucas and Traylor to be our best bigs.Coach K on the other hand, I saw him scratch his normal game plan for the Louisville game by playing Zone defense and it worked! The guy just totally threw a curveball and made an on the fly adjustment and it worked, it worked out bigtime! HCBS needs to take a few pages from Coach K’s book. Im not saying he needs to play zone D, what I am saying is he needs to be more flexible with how he schemes to beat the next team and the next one after.
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Win at all costs and the fans cry about not looking to the future. Sit Cliff and lose tonight with an eye on the future and fans cry. It’a a good thing KU basketball coach isn’t an elected position. The man has done nothing but win games at a historic rate. KU is 14-3 with a freshman and sophomore dominated line-up in what has been the hardest schedule in the nation. I’m estatic with the win loss record, but think there is much room for improvement in play. That’s what has me excited, KU will be better in March and even better next year.
If Bill manages to win the conference title this year it will be quite the feat with 8 teams in a 10 team conference having been ranked in the top 25. That means 8 teams have been rated in the top 7% of all college basketball. KU will have to earn this championship!
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As others have noted, no shame in a loss at Hilton - the Clones are a good team and they present major match-ups problems. Frankly, what is surprising is how we were within 3 at the half and ended up just loosing by 5. We were clearly outplayed the most of the game. Went back and watched it again this morning, and it became apparent that it could easily have been a blow-out. ISU missed a lot of free throws and several shots at the rim when they blew by our guys. Give our guys credit for continuing to battle, but give up 50 points in the 2nd half?! So, while not a bad loss in the grand scheme of things, there don’t seem to be too many positives to take away from this - Perry at least showed up (but, he still can score in the post when he has to initiate and the other team focuses on him (even if they’re not L&A), and he still can’t defend), Mason was again our best player, and Graham was solid. Negatives were many - as most have noted, transition defense was horrible (esp. Selden), we can’t stop penetration, we don’t block out, and we can’t finish at the rim. The latter problem is because our supposed slashers can’t handle the rock - they get into the paint full tilt and can’t adjust. Selden really has no handle - can’t believe Self ever thought he was an option at the 1. Oubre not much better, but with him, it’s a matter of experience and would expect continued improvement. Greene has shown he can score going to the basket, but apparently Self has decided that his defensive shortcomings outweigh his ability to generate offense.
Half way through the season, we still don’t have an identity. Difficult to figure out what kind of team will show up from game to game. We need Mason, Graham and Oubre on the floor together more. They’re the most consistent players and the only ones that create turnovers and generate transition buckets. More minutes to Alexander. Perry if his head is in the game. More of Svi and Greene and less of Selden and Traylor.
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On the bright side, KU shot 23 treys (9-23). I know most of us were expecting mid-teens with 25 treys being the promised land. Too bad they didn’t make two more of them.
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@BeddieKU23 Really good post.
Cliff didn’t play because he couldn’t guard the perimeter. Sure. I knew that. But in the second half, I would have been willing to trade defense for offensive production. It’s not like Lucas was doing anything defensively and he’s nothing more than an glorified telephone pole on offense. I can’t really say anything about Cliff that everyone else already hasn’t. Self’s stubbornness is hurting this team’s chances to win games. Enough said.
I will disagree with you on self being out-coached. Self was most definitely not out-coached because that implies that Hoiberg out-coached Self. He did not. ISU didn’t do anything other than what we expected them to do. They ran out in transition and shot the three. We knew they were gonna do that. If Self was out-coached, it was Self out-coaching himself.
I don’t like complaining about officials… But I’ll say this, ISU fans are notorious for crying about officiating. They did the same thing last year in Ames when they shot double the amount of free throws than we did, and they’re a 3-point shooting team. Last night, to not get a free throw for the first 30 minutes of the game was appalling. As you pointed out, the play where Lucas got pulled down from behind and was called for the foul pretty much sums it all up.
You’re right about ISU though. This is their Super Bowl. Biggest game of the year for them. God I hate their fans though. They were booing travel calls for god’s sake! Their stadium just looks like a McDonald’s rally. In the last two minutes, we weren’t gonna get a call. You knew they weren’t gonna call a block on Niang after 2013. It might as well have been written on the officials.
Tough loss. But we can’t let it affect us long, because we have a big game on Monday.
@DCHawker Ya, but I think my biggest problem is that we could’ve gone into halftime with the lead. ISU wasn’t doing anything special. They hurried to inbound the ball and run. That’s something I’d like to see KU do. We should’ve been much better prepared for that, although I don’t know what more you can do besides yell at your team to get back. I would be interested to see what could’ve happened if we had been ahead at half.
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I think Self did get out coached because a five point loss can be broken down into a few flaws in the game. You get 34 minutes from 2 posts players and get 0 points. That’s a complete waste.
You sit your best post option for 26 minutes trying to send a message but yet you fail to understand Lucas having 3 turnovers and 3 blown transition baskets for dunks is even worse.
You say that your point guard at halftime is not running sets but yet their defense was the reason with the downing ball screens and jumping passing lanes on swing passes.
Coach K played zone it worked, Notre Dame played 5 guards to compete with Miami’s ball screen action. Get the point, both these teams did something different and won because of it. What did we do, watched isu torch us and get basket after basket in transition.
I wasn’t complaining about the refs as much as pointing out how bad they treat teams. Some blatant plays that just contributed to the loss. It was clear that for ku to win it wasnt going to get much help. The technical was a bad call but mason didn’t help by missing a ft. It was severe homerism at its best.
I don’t agree that this team has a higer ceiling that it will show in march. This is who we are, we play with energy at home and struggle away. Its clear that our older guys don’t have the leadership yet. We just need to regroup for monday because that game will be just as hard as last night
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What was really scary is that ISU fans did not storm the court, as if they now expect to win every game in Hilton. That is our mind set. I remember the game where Collision had the greatest game as a Jayhawk and we beat Texas. Fans began to storm the court and Kirk kept yelling, “This is Kansas, we don’t storm the court!”
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A few observations before and during the game…
During game day the comment …KU has one top front lines in the country had me ROTFLAMF.
Bilas showed up wearing Nike sneakers with huge swooshes on the side and sat at the end with the Nike logo prominently displayed…how tacky. As far as I could tell all the other announcers wore plain dress shoes.
Jay Williams uncovering an ISU t-shirt under his shirt ala Superman…cheesy way to play to the crow, but then…he is a dukie
Calipari had 2 segment that I saw. In the first one he was asked what he would do if he was appointed NCCA commissioner for 1 day and his answer was: first, eliminate that rule that limits foreign junkets to 1 every 4 years and allow teams to travel overseas basically whenever they want, and second, allow teams to play anyone they want during pre-season including other Division teams ( he mentioned Duke) and the games would not count on the official record, and for the teams that do not want not do this, allow more days of practice before the season. Sounded like a PR attempt to control damage in view of the formation that UK paid for other teams to travel to the Bahamas.
In the second snippet I saw they asked him about the number of players he should play and he indicate that “the ideal number of players in the rotation is 7 and 6-1/5 is even better and 8 is too many and 9 way too many.” As I indicated before, most coached favor that number including Self.
Look like ESPN has now elevated Hoiberg to a level reserved only for Calipari and coach K; the whole game day was like a “tribute” to Hoiberg. By the way Bilas kept saying “to be the champ you have to beat the champ” hmmm…where did I see that before? Maybe Bilas reads KUBuckets???
Bilas criticizing the “T” for “bouncing the ball over his head”…Hello Jay…by rule when a player bounces the ball over his head is an automatic T; really a no brainer call.
The referees apparently missed the lecture on over the back fouls. In one sequence there were 3 over the back fouls that were not called. One of my guests (and MU fan) commented that KU was getting shafted. The dunk by MCKay was an over the back foul and he not only got the basket but a free throw as well…this was at least a 3 and potentially 5 point swing and to me, a key play that swung the game to ISU. The charge on Lucas was ridiculous. Looked like the refs did not want fans jumping from the stands wanting to punch them so they decided to call the game heavily in favor of ISU and not risk life and limb.
The commentators repeatedly indicated that KU needed to get the ball inside and every time I kept thinking this the one that sends @HighEliteMajor to emergency.
A few game stats:
- First half 3 points: KU 5-10, ISU 3-10
- Second half 3 points: KU 4-13, ISU 6-10
- Points off turnovers: KU -14, ISU 13
- Second chance points: KU 15, ISU 5
- Bench points: KU 19, ISU 14
- Points in the paint: KU 34, ISU 40
- **Fast break points: KU 10, ISU 21 - Most critical stat **
In my opinion, the highlighted stats were key. KU’s 3 point shooting percentage dropped in the second half and ISU doubled, but clearly the transition game was the biggest factor.
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@dylans Im not bagging on Coach Self for losing this game, I just think he could have gone small sooner than 2:30 left in the second half to make the game out come in our favor. We could have won that game, although as I said, i never expected us to win it from the tip. And you are right Dylans, we are going to be even better next year. I am betting we get nearly everyone back next time and add a couple key players.
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Wish I could have participated yesterday … lots of family stuff.
I really like @lulufulu’s observation – he’s not criticizing Self for sitting Alexander, if Self had a good reason; but he doesn’t understand why we didn’t go small earlier. Bingo. This was an obvious move, against a team where we lose nothing because they don’t play feed the post.
Compare to last season where Embiid played great and we were able to attack inside because of our personnel. This season, we just don’t have that personnel and that was made worse by Lucas/Traylor over Cliff. Sure then, bench Cliff if that’s what has to be done. But at least give us a real chance to match up. Feed the post isn’t a bad thing. It just doesn’t work when you can’t score at the rim at 65%, compared to shooting threes.
Look at 2:20 of the second half. We go small, spread the floor, Mason attacks and we score.
Also, there is no doubt that @JayHawkFanToo is correct. From a stats point of view, we lost the game in transition. It was the most critical stat – together, in my book, with Lucas and Traylor’s combined minutes.
If we stop transition, perhaps we win. And the biggest culprit there was Wayne Selden.
Great thread … don’t get this sort of post game discussion anywhere else. I enjoyed reading everyone’s comments.
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I agree with you guys that we should have gone small in this one since we didn’t use our size advantage on offense by attacking in the post.
To be honest, no substitutions were going to fix this game. We didn’t have the energy nor the focus to play to our potential. Self said it… our guys weren’t running his offense.
We weren’t ready to play in Ames. I don’t know if Self tried to get these guys ready, or he had this game setup to “throw them to the wolves” so we can be a stronger team later?
I hate it when our guys look like “deer in the headlights.” On one camera shot it showed Wayne and it looked like he was crying.
Our visuals are horrible. Bad body language. It’s posture, movement, facial expressions… we need to work on this asap!
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@drgnslayr Body language, Posture, Facial expressions.
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That’s how I was looking, maybe yelling a lot more!!
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There were other places where the body language was worse.
Perry walking back to the huddle with his head down looking at the floor. I saw that twice.
I also mentioned Wayne’s expression.
We need our guys to be upbeat, even under harsh conditions. How will they create the energy to compete without being upbeat?
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Ok…why didn’t we simply go with Frank, Devonte, BG, Kelly, and Hunter, and beat them at their own game? Press the inbounds, trap the ball on the perimeter, get RUN OUTS…
I’m a lot like a younger version of my Grandpa Ray ( 54 yes, I am young and restless ). My grandmother would make him take me to the Liberal Bee Jay games ( no dirty comments ). He’d sit there, along 50 other old men, and yell at the umpire the whole game. You talk about a peanut gallery - those old coots would slam the ump the whole night…booing, caterwauling…it was quite a spectacle. And my grandpa would always compete with two other old farts for most obnoxious of the night. One time, the guy running the P.A. system got on them over the loud speaker for yelling smack at the opposing manager. I’m kind of like that when we lose…I always come up with a “better plan”…LOL.
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@KUSTEVE HA! Love the Grandpa Ray story! I’ll be giggling about that all night ;0)
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@KUSTEVE good story!! Were you embarrassed?
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I knew the color in your posts had to be rooted in a colorful past! Keep-em coming, my friend!
