Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond)
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Here’s a good article for any white folks who are angry, upset, but not sure what to do about it. For people who want to take “personal responsibility” for their role in our society.
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If only white people posted more Instagram stories about race, then everything will be ok.
I swear by the end of this critical race theory is going to be more dangerous than COVID.
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@FarmerJayhawk So in your opinion, white people learning and seeking understanding of racism, it’s origins, and it’s current impact is bad? That seems helpful. Glad you’re doing your part.
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@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk So in your opinion, white people learning and seeking understanding of racism, it’s origins, and it’s current impact is bad? That seems helpful. Glad you’re doing your part.
I’m not going to let CRT, which dehumanizes people and when taken to its logical conclusion, ends with anarchy and then authoritarianism, dictate my thoughts and actions.
I’ve been fighting for immigration, police, and criminal justice reform since I could vote. I’m proud of that. Sorry I’m being # hash tag PRAWBLUMATIK
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@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of “whiteness” and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? I’m really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?
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Doing anything mindfully because you are a particular race may highlight a problem, and it may exacerbate it. But it doesn’t fix it.
I think a lot of people are tired of having to talk about race. And a lot of people feel they have to talk about it and/or should because of systemic inequality.
We tried to not see color, and that may have worked a little. We have tried equal opportunity and that might have worked a little. I don’t think it’s too late to grant some land and a modern day mule (maybe a Toyota Yaris) to every descendant of a slave. Either that or go with some sort of socialist agenda that grants free shit to all. I don’t know.
The scars of slavery need to be acknowledged and a concensus that we need to move past it aggressively needs to be acknowledged by all. The festering needs to stop. Bring the NAACP to the table and negotiate reparations. Let’s get this shit straight officially, so we can move on from it as one nation.
Once we address the backdrop of social inequality rooted in slavery, we can tackle separately the actions of racist assholes like this police officer and remove the powder keg behind it.
This doesn’t fix everything, but it gets us further down the road. Acknowledge, come to consensus, move on as a desired thing by all to achieve resolution, try not to go back. Rinse, repeat.
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@approxinfinity Failing to recognize your own position in society as a white person is one of many reasons racism continues to be one of the biggest problems in America. White people have a responsibility to step up right now and reckon with the disparity the current system has created.
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@approxinfinity Maybe you weren’t saying what I thought you were with the original shorter post.
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@benshawks08 I’m tired of being identified as a white person. That doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge that I am afforded certain privileges for being white. I’m just saying it’s f’ing exhausting, demeaning and unfair for everyone to be forced inside a box that is their race and have others look at them as their race being their primary characteristic. The very same thing that people resent on one side is the thing they are asking the other side to willingly embrace for themselves. It’s nonsensical.
At the heart of a position of privilege is finances. It’s something that can be resolved via agreement, whereas emotions and prejudices cannot. I would also argue that emotions and prejudices are reactive whereas addressing finances is proactive. So let’s get a number on the table financially and square that part of it up. The rest hopefully follows, albeit with a long tail.
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@approxinfinity That exhaustion you feel is what black people go through every moment of their life. It’s why we as white people have to do it. Racial disparity still exists no matter a persons finances. If a black person speaks, their voice is automatically racialized. So we as white people have to racialize our voice as well. To not, is to assume that white is the norm and anything else is divergent and different.
I agree it’s not fun. It’s exhausting. It’s frustrating. We can’t just buy our way out of our racist past and present. I totally agree that finances are a huge issue but perceptions, thoughts, and emotions can’t be bought. It takes work to shift those. Work that is exhausting and frustrating and in no way simple.
In order for there to be true equality, white people have to give up power. That’s going to be painful. People on the bottom asking those with it to step back and take a walk in their shoes is never nonsensical. That’s empathy. And it’s the least they can ask for.
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@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of “whiteness” and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? I’m really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?
I’m all for reading history and gaining an understanding of the world. However, CRT is the exact wrong lens for anyone to view what is obviously a horrific crime through. A theory that boils people down to their skin color and as one of its tenets says that to be of a particular race, you have to hold a specific set of views, is societal poison. A theory that accepts no dissent, no conversation except on its terms, and if you question it you’re obviously mentally defective at best is horrible for society. A theory and worldview that has an anchor of life is all about hierarchies and struggles for power foments those exact things. I’ve seen it when brought to these conclusions at Evergreen State College and Yale. We’ve seen it in the press the last couple days with certain segments of the population encouraging the riots and “burn it all (meaning mostly minority-owned businesses) down” in the name of “justice.”
I stand with Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) who marched with Dr. King, “Rioting, looting, and burning is not the way. Organize. Demonstrate. Sit-in. Stand-up. Vote. Be constructive, not destructive. History has proven time and again that non-violent, peaceful protest is the way to achieve the justice and equality that we all deserve.”
“Our work won’t be easy — nothing worth having ever is — but I strongly believe, as Dr. King once said, that while the arc of the moral universe is long, it bends toward justice.”
My focus has been and always will be on equality and equalizing everyone’s opportunities in society (i.e. equality instead of equity). Are we there yet? Of course not. But I’m tired of being told this is inadequate and shows my “privilege.” I want the boot of the state off the neck of the black community, the brown community, and everyone else. Don’t put the weight of the state behind or on top of anyone. Respect all our individuality and rights equally, and follow the liberal ordering of society.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of “whiteness” and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? I’m really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?
I’m all for reading history and gaining an understanding of the world. However, CRT is the exact wrong lens for anyone to view what is obviously a horrific crime through. A theory that boils people down to their skin color and as one of its tenets says that to be of a particular race, you have to hold a specific set of views, is societal poison. A theory that accepts no dissent, no conversation except on its terms, and if you question it you’re obviously mentally defective at best is horrible for society. A theory and worldview that has an anchor of life is all about hierarchies and struggles for power foments those exact things. I’ve seen it when brought to these conclusions at Evergreen State College and Yale. We’ve seen it in the press the last couple days with certain segments of the population encouraging the riots and “burn it all (meaning mostly minority-owned businesses) down” in the name of “justice.”
I stand with Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) who marched with Dr. King, “Rioting, looting, and burning is not the way. Organize. Demonstrate. Sit-in. Stand-up. Vote. Be constructive, not destructive. History has proven time and again that non-violent, peaceful protest is the way to achieve the justice and equality that we all deserve.”
“Our work won’t be easy — nothing worth having ever is — but I strongly believe, as Dr. King once said, that while the arc of the moral universe is long, it bends toward justice.”
My focus has been and always will be on equality and equalizing everyone’s opportunities in society (i.e. equality instead of equity). Are we there yet? Of course not. But I’m tired of being told this is inadequate and shows my “privilege.” I want the boot of the state off the neck of the black community, the brown community, and everyone else. Don’t put the weight of the state behind or on top of anyone. Respect all our individuality and rights equally, and follow the liberal ordering of society.
Ok, but if you agree we aren’t at equality yet then that is inadequate, right? How long have we been working towards equality? I’m tired of people doing everything they can to make sure we don’t “go too far.” Yes it sucks to be constantly reminded of the privilege we hold as white people but certainly it doesn’t compare to being constantly reminded that you don’t matter as much as people of another race.
The people in power ARE NOT “respecting all our individuality and rights equally” and have no intention of giving up that power if they are not forced to do so. To be clear, I think destroying property and “burning it all down“ with respect to businesses is wrong. That doesn’t mean I can’t empathize with why people feel the need to do such things. Peaceful protests have happened after every majorly covered instance of police violence and very little has changed. Police are more militarized than ever and the president is advocating the shooting and brutalization of folks out protesting. As far as I know, the penalty for looting is not and should not be death.
I’m tired of white people being tired. We’ve ignored the plight and tacitly accepted inequality for too long. I’m taking action by reading black voices, voting, donating time, donating money, Supporting community events, calling elected officials, VOTING, having tough conversations with my family, and calling out racism whenever and wherever I see it. If these things upset, frustrate, or exhaust white folks, I’m guess I’m ok with that.
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@benshawks08 There’s a difference between accepting guilt for something you didn’t do and being sympathetic. I’m sympathetic and always have been, but that’s because it’s who I am. Other people aren’t as sympathetic. And that’s who they are. You can’t force adults to be sympathetic. And it’s dangerous to try to. I’m not exhausted for being sympathetic, I pride myself on that. I’m exhausted for being blamed.
Articles entitled “Hey white people” can f right off.
That article mentioned that a disproportionate number of COVID victims were black. Finances will always be at the heart of black-white racial tension in this country. Health insurance, higher education, property, and a chance to pursue the same American dream.
People are quick to dismiss the notion of throwing money at the problem. To me, dismissing pursuing the financial side is a willingness to wallow in self loathing and resentment as a nation rather than attempting to find a way we can move on. As you said, white people need to give up power. Money is power and influence. More and more people of color are taking office. I would say that we are heading on the right track there.
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@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@benshawks08 There’s a difference between accepting guilt for something you didn’t do and being sympathetic. I’m sympathetic and always have been, but that’s because it’s who I am. Other people aren’t as sympathetic. And that’s who they are. You can’t force adults to be sympathetic. And it’s dangerous to try to. I’m not exhausted for being sympathetic, I pride myself on that. I’m exhausted for being blamed.
Articles entitled “Hey white people” can f right off.
That article mentioned that a disproportionate number of COVID victims were black. Finances will always be at the heart of black-white racial tension in this country. Health insurance, higher education, property, and a chance to pursue the same American dream.
People are quick to dismiss the notion of throwing money at the problem. To me, dismissing pursuing the financial side is a willingness to wallow in self loathing and resentment as a nation rather than attempting to find a way we can move on. As you said, white people need to give up power. Money is power and influence. More and more people of color are taking office. I would say that we are heading on the right track there.
Well all the guilt I have is for things I haven’t done! Slavery wasn’t my fault, I have no guilt for that. However, have I seen dramatic inequality by race and not acted? Yep. That’s the guilt I have and honestly it doesn’t get me anywhere. I’m not asking people to feel guilt. I’m asking people to take action. Living in guilt is exactly what you said, “wallowing in self loathing.”
Why is it dangerous to work to get folks to feel? To feel empathy and sympathy enrich my life and if we don’t encourage others to engage those feelings, what the hell are we doing?
Blame is a funny thing. So many people NEED someone to blame in almost every situation. I personally try to not be like that. Instead I’m trying to understand where people are coming from and what is motivating their action or a lack there of. That may not have come across in my recent posts. My biggest issue I think is that for so long racism has been a problem that black people have had to deal with and most white people (especially sympathetic ones like you and me) haven’t. But racism is white peoples problem. We are the one benefiting from systems admittedly we (as in you and I) didn’t create. But to me, if a person isn’t fighting to change those systems right now, then they are part of the problem.
I know you are a sympathetic person and I have a lot of respect for you based on what I’ve read in your posts. I hope you don’t think this exchange is changing that. It’s interesting to me that being called white is so upsetting to you. I wonder who is really wallowing in self loathing here? I’m not ashamed of being white. I have no guilt for being white. I have unearned power due to my race and feel responsible to use that power to make change where I can and give up that power wherever I can to empower voices not as readily heard as mine.
I’m pretty sure I agreed that the financial issue you brought up is a real one and money and power definitely go hand and hand. I’m not dismissing your idea as it’s a good one. And I do agree it’s the right place to start. I’d be hesitant to connect the reparations to a direct connection to slavery as a big part of slavery was a lack of ancestral tracing due to rape, family separatism etc. And honestly, with my partner being a part of the Potawatomi tribe, the US government doesn’t have a great track record regarding things like blood quantum, ancestral heritage and the like.
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@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@benshawks08 There’s a difference between accepting guilt for something you didn’t do and being sympathetic. I’m sympathetic and always have been, but that’s because it’s who I am. Other people aren’t as sympathetic. And that’s who they are. You can’t force adults to be sympathetic. And it’s dangerous to try to. I’m not exhausted for being sympathetic, I pride myself on that. I’m exhausted for being blamed.
Articles entitled “Hey white people” can f right off.
That article mentioned that a disproportionate number of COVID victims were black. Finances will always be at the heart of black-white racial tension in this country. Health insurance, higher education, property, and a chance to pursue the same American dream.
People are quick to dismiss the notion of throwing money at the problem. To me, dismissing pursuing the financial side is a willingness to wallow in self loathing and resentment as a nation rather than attempting to find a way we can move on. As you said, white people need to give up power. Money is power and influence. More and more people of color are taking office. I would say that we are heading on the right track there.
Here’s why throwing money at this particular issue won’t solve anything long term, it would just be a bandaid on a bullet holes. How many times have we seen people that don’t have much money win the lottery and end up broke shortly thereafter? How many athletes have ended up broke shortly after their playing careers? How people did you see on social media buying dumb stuff with their stimulus check instead of using it for its intended purpose?
If you really want to use money to create real change that will have a long term positive impact, use that money to invest in infrastructure of black communities. Invest in black businesses, build police precincts in black communities and hire black officers from those communities to be stationed at those precincts, invest in schools that have up to date technology staffed with black teachers from those same communities. Probably the most important thing would be don’t allow gentrification to happen when those communities start changing and forcing the black people out to find another neighborhood to live in because that just restarts the cycle again.
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@Crimsonorblue22 - “What a shitty world”
Interestingly enough, that was the original lyric for Louis Armstrong’s “What a Wonderful World”. They just weren’t sure how many records it would sell.
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Update: I will be voting this next election, for Biden obviously. Holy crap is Trump incompetent.
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@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of “whiteness” and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? I’m really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?
I’m all for reading history and gaining an understanding of the world. However, CRT is the exact wrong lens for anyone to view what is obviously a horrific crime through. A theory that boils people down to their skin color and as one of its tenets says that to be of a particular race, you have to hold a specific set of views, is societal poison. A theory that accepts no dissent, no conversation except on its terms, and if you question it you’re obviously mentally defective at best is horrible for society. A theory and worldview that has an anchor of life is all about hierarchies and struggles for power foments those exact things. I’ve seen it when brought to these conclusions at Evergreen State College and Yale. We’ve seen it in the press the last couple days with certain segments of the population encouraging the riots and “burn it all (meaning mostly minority-owned businesses) down” in the name of “justice.”
I stand with Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) who marched with Dr. King, “Rioting, looting, and burning is not the way. Organize. Demonstrate. Sit-in. Stand-up. Vote. Be constructive, not destructive. History has proven time and again that non-violent, peaceful protest is the way to achieve the justice and equality that we all deserve.”
“Our work won’t be easy — nothing worth having ever is — but I strongly believe, as Dr. King once said, that while the arc of the moral universe is long, it bends toward justice.”
My focus has been and always will be on equality and equalizing everyone’s opportunities in society (i.e. equality instead of equity). Are we there yet? Of course not. But I’m tired of being told this is inadequate and shows my “privilege.” I want the boot of the state off the neck of the black community, the brown community, and everyone else. Don’t put the weight of the state behind or on top of anyone. Respect all our individuality and rights equally, and follow the liberal ordering of society.
Ok, but if you agree we aren’t at equality yet then that is inadequate, right? How long have we been working towards equality? I’m tired of people doing everything they can to make sure we don’t “go too far.” Yes it sucks to be constantly reminded of the privilege we hold as white people but certainly it doesn’t compare to being constantly reminded that you don’t matter as much as people of another race.
The people in power ARE NOT “respecting all our individuality and rights equally” and have no intention of giving up that power if they are not forced to do so. To be clear, I think destroying property and “burning it all down“ with respect to businesses is wrong. That doesn’t mean I can’t empathize with why people feel the need to do such things. Peaceful protests have happened after every majorly covered instance of police violence and very little has changed. Police are more militarized than ever and the president is advocating the shooting and brutalization of folks out protesting. As far as I know, the penalty for looting is not and should not be death.
I’m tired of white people being tired. We’ve ignored the plight and tacitly accepted inequality for too long. I’m taking action by reading black voices, voting, donating time, donating money, Supporting community events, calling elected officials, VOTING, having tough conversations with my family, and calling out racism whenever and wherever I see it. If these things upset, frustrate, or exhaust white folks, I’m guess I’m ok with that.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m working toward equality every single day and am proud of what I’ve accomplished in that regard so far in changing public policy. I just get tired of other whites who don’t know me (most of whom are whiter than myself, since I have a Native great grandparent) that my efforts aren’t adequate.
And I still believe every worldview that doesn’t feel inequality is adequate is a poisonous mind virus that’ll tear society apart at the seams because its logical conclusions lead to some very, very scary stuff like depriving people of their own individual identities (like under CRT you’re not really black unless you hold the right views about race.) It’s a deeply pessimistic, cynical, and arguably paranoid view of society that never prescribes any real solutions (because it can’t, it says so explicitly in the theory under the banner of there being no such thing as objective truth). As an example, this quote directly from a CRT text, “Third, CRT questions liberalism and the ability of a system of law built on it to create a just society. An interest convergence critique posits that white elites will tolerate or encourage racial advances for blacks only when such advances also promote white self-interest.” Liberalism, understood as a societal code with equal protection under law, is the highest ideal. I’ll have nothing to do with CRT’s poison. And I admit that makes me analogous to the Klan under CRT but I really don’t care. My record speaks for itself.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4K5fbQ1-zps I believe a lot of what this saying, not everyone that’s white has privilege.
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I hear folks all over saying there needs to be an “honest” conversation. I’ve tried that. I tried it here. But whenever the conversation gets uncomfortable, or it strays into territories that leftists see as off limits, the conversation ends.
Remember, police have to have a high presence in high crime areas or the good citizens will be the victims. If there is not high crime, then there is not a high police presence. That’s how it works. When police see, day after day, black men committing horrible crimes, which is a fact in the inner city. It’s an undeniable fact. The lesser of those cops take the brutality route. Day after day, the same thing.
Policing in high crime areas is not nice. Policing attracts man folks that are on power trips and that have violent tempers. The worst sort of personality one might think for the job. In some situations, their aggressiveness may save lives.
But it’s why you have police brutality. Because you have many of the wrong personalities in police work. And they can’t control themselves based on what they see day to day.
There are many pieces to this puzzle. One is that the inner city black culture, the same stuff I have railed against, has to change. That’s one piece. And until there is some sort of moral foundation, that piece will never end.
A small sampling from Minneapolis, this one from the last September. And right, you see crap like this regularly.
Of course, my thread that pretty much devolved into anything but a discussion. There is no discussion when you challenge a leftist, even if the purpose and concern is to protect the lives and safety of the good inner city folks. It doesn’t matter. You say “race”, the leftist convulses.
Folks act in cultures. Many sub-cultures are grouped by race. This is one. The destructive inner city black culture.
But guess which else is one – the cop culture. This is a huge issue that is part of the problem. But see the leftists will only acknowledge “culture” when it works for them. An important distinction when it comes to rationality.
Until the the self-inflicted issues are address in the inner city, all the money thrown that way won’t do any good. The way people think and approach life is the only thing that keeps folks from killing and maiming.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/9118/inner-city-culture/24
Here’s a post I made in this topic when asked what I’d do in the inner city -
@Kcmatt7 At the core, this starts with acknowledging the problem. That’s the impasse. Until the problem is ID’d and acknowledged, you can’t attack it. The fact is it is an inner city culture of violence. Changing culture takes a long time.
First identify “inner city safety zones.”
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Public steps to involve the churches and faiths. Get people to church in these zones. The church is a huge factor in turning this around.
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Public steps to encourage and foster marriage. Inner city safety zones that reward folks for marriage and self sufficiency. But more, public efforts to discuss and call out the “baby mama” culture. This is the real enemy. 75% single mother births among blacks. Worse among inner city blacks. Much higher than other races or cultures.
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The president has to take the lead. I felt Obama missed an historic opportunity. Trump obviously can’t do it. We need another president to make this job one. The first domestic priority. The one where the most lives are lost/destroyed.
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Have special inner city safety zone courts that expedite prosecutions, warrants, and labeling of threats.
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We have hate crime legislation that leads to outrageous results. Use that logic. Huge sentences for crimes in inner city zones were the real violence is occurring. Drive by and shoot a little black child on a porch, life in prison regardless of whether there is a death. Wear a mask in a crime, 5 more years. Robbery, any kind, 40 years. Develop a ridiculously strict sentencing structure for inner city safety zones.
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Inner city gang affiliation prosecuted as RICO crimes. Increase sentences for inner city safety zones. You go to jail for being in a criminal gang. Just for affiliation.
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Stop and frisk permitted in inner city zones of all males. Horrible? Discriminatory? Yes on both counts. Too bad. Males are 95% of the problem.
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If you have a felony conviction for anything violent, or you are an ID’d gang member by the safety zone courts, inner city zone warrants automatically issued for random searches of home and auto. Inner city courts can order drug treatment without a trial. 90 day commitments.
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In inner city safety zones, curfews strictly enforced. Cars pulled over after 10:00. People off the streets. Only to and from work and a few other exceptions. Businesses close at 9:00.
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Posting of army style officers that walk a beat in these areas. In pairs. No female cops in these areas. No male cops under 200 pounds. Much higher pay. Elite training. Federal involvement in supporting/training.
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Air surveillance, like a war zone.
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Massive use of food kitchens. Free meals in all inner city safety zones. No one starves. No one steals for food. Involvement of churches is a must.
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Partnership program for schools with suburban districts. Vouchers (money) for “tuition” and transport. Partnership programs include working families so inner city kids can live with suburban families during the week and attend school there. Work with the suburban private schools too.
These are tax dollars I’m willing to pay.
Of course, this is all discriminatory. I want to discriminate IN FAVOR of protecting good inner city folks. I noticed that over 70% of Baltimore residents were in favor of police air surveillance while the ACLU says it’s discriminatory. That should tell everyone something. The majority of inner city folks aren’t part of the culture. They want safety, security, and the ability to succeed.
These thugs are the enemy. Try to change their hearts and minds, but attack the criminals is they won’t change. Culture change takes time.
This isn’t perfect. It’s a discussion point. I am just sickened by the violence and the loss of lives that no one values.
Just off the top of my head. I know, impossible. But you asked.
I’ve also posted this before. I want a high quality police force. Pay officers $120,000 year or whatever is high for an area. Attract better people. It seems simple, but better people make better decisions. The “cop” mentality – I’m the boss, I’m in control, I have power – is a high contributor. The cop culture. Personally, I think non-cops should be in charge of cops. Folks that understand the law. Folks that aren’t part of the culture.
To change certain elements of the police requires non-police to be in charge. And when the shroud of the cop culture is lifted, the many, many excellent officers will be able to change that culture.
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@HighEliteMajor I’m going to try real hard to engage in conversation that doesn’t immediately turn you off. I am disagreeing with you but that doesn’t mean it’s not dialogue.
Do you honestly believe further militarizing The police and increasing the discriminatory actions of those more militarized police will fix this problem? This is the least logical plan I have ever seen. Those tactics are the exact reason for these protests and your solution is do more of it? Are you listening at all to the people on the streets this week crying out to be heard?
We agree that cop culture is an issue. My brother is a police officer and I noticed changes in the way he thinks and talks after about 3 months. I just don’t understand how a person can see cops on a power trip and then think providing that culture with unlimited resources and power is the way forward. It doesn’t matter how much you pay a person. If you tell them their job is to as you say discriminate every day and give them military style weapons and resources to do so, you are creating power hungry racists. Humans just aren’t capable of the extraordinary level of compartmentalization that would entail.
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@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
I hear folks all over saying there needs to be an “honest” conversation. I’ve tried that. I tried it here. But whenever the conversation gets uncomfortable, or it strays into territories that leftists see as off limits, the conversation ends.
Remember, police have to have a high presence in high crime areas or the good citizens will be the victims. If there is not high crime, then there is not a high police presence. That’s how it works. When police see, day after day, black men committing horrible crimes, which is a fact in the inner city. It’s an undeniable fact. The lesser of those cops take the brutality route. Day after day, the same thing.
Policing in high crime areas is not nice. Policing attracts man folks that are on power trips and that have violent tempers. The worst sort of personality one might think for the job. In some situations, their aggressiveness may save lives.
But it’s why you have police brutality. Because you have many of the wrong personalities in police work. And they can’t control themselves based on what they see day to day.
There are many pieces to this puzzle. One is that the inner city black culture, the same stuff I have railed against, has to change. That’s one piece. And until there is some sort of moral foundation, that piece will never end.
A small sampling from Minneapolis, this one from the last September. And right, you see crap like this regularly.
Of course, my thread that pretty much devolved into anything but a discussion. There is no discussion when you challenge a leftist, even if the purpose and concern is to protect the lives and safety of the good inner city folks. It doesn’t matter. You say “race”, the leftist convulses.
Folks act in cultures. Many sub-cultures are grouped by race. This is one. The destructive inner city black culture.
But guess which else is one – the cop culture. This is a huge issue that is part of the problem. But see the leftists will only acknowledge “culture” when it works for them. An important distinction when it comes to rationality.
Until the the self-inflicted issues are address in the inner city, all the money thrown that way won’t do any good. The way people think and approach life is the only thing that keeps folks from killing and maiming.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/9118/inner-city-culture/24
Here’s a post I made in this topic when asked what I’d do in the inner city -
@Kcmatt7 At the core, this starts with acknowledging the problem. That’s the impasse. Until the problem is ID’d and acknowledged, you can’t attack it. The fact is it is an inner city culture of violence. Changing culture takes a long time.
First identify “inner city safety zones.”
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Public steps to involve the churches and faiths. Get people to church in these zones. The church is a huge factor in turning this around.
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Public steps to encourage and foster marriage. Inner city safety zones that reward folks for marriage and self sufficiency. But more, public efforts to discuss and call out the “baby mama” culture. This is the real enemy. 75% single mother births among blacks. Worse among inner city blacks. Much higher than other races or cultures.
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The president has to take the lead. I felt Obama missed an historic opportunity. Trump obviously can’t do it. We need another president to make this job one. The first domestic priority. The one where the most lives are lost/destroyed.
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Have special inner city safety zone courts that expedite prosecutions, warrants, and labeling of threats.
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We have hate crime legislation that leads to outrageous results. Use that logic. Huge sentences for crimes in inner city zones were the real violence is occurring. Drive by and shoot a little black child on a porch, life in prison regardless of whether there is a death. Wear a mask in a crime, 5 more years. Robbery, any kind, 40 years. Develop a ridiculously strict sentencing structure for inner city safety zones.
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Inner city gang affiliation prosecuted as RICO crimes. Increase sentences for inner city safety zones. You go to jail for being in a criminal gang. Just for affiliation.
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Stop and frisk permitted in inner city zones of all males. Horrible? Discriminatory? Yes on both counts. Too bad. Males are 95% of the problem.
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If you have a felony conviction for anything violent, or you are an ID’d gang member by the safety zone courts, inner city zone warrants automatically issued for random searches of home and auto. Inner city courts can order drug treatment without a trial. 90 day commitments.
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In inner city safety zones, curfews strictly enforced. Cars pulled over after 10:00. People off the streets. Only to and from work and a few other exceptions. Businesses close at 9:00.
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Posting of army style officers that walk a beat in these areas. In pairs. No female cops in these areas. No male cops under 200 pounds. Much higher pay. Elite training. Federal involvement in supporting/training.
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Air surveillance, like a war zone.
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Massive use of food kitchens. Free meals in all inner city safety zones. No one starves. No one steals for food. Involvement of churches is a must.
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Partnership program for schools with suburban districts. Vouchers (money) for “tuition” and transport. Partnership programs include working families so inner city kids can live with suburban families during the week and attend school there. Work with the suburban private schools too.
These are tax dollars I’m willing to pay.
Of course, this is all discriminatory. I want to discriminate IN FAVOR of protecting good inner city folks. I noticed that over 70% of Baltimore residents were in favor of police air surveillance while the ACLU says it’s discriminatory. That should tell everyone something. The majority of inner city folks aren’t part of the culture. They want safety, security, and the ability to succeed.
These thugs are the enemy. Try to change their hearts and minds, but attack the criminals is they won’t change. Culture change takes time.
This isn’t perfect. It’s a discussion point. I am just sickened by the violence and the loss of lives that no one values.
Just off the top of my head. I know, impossible. But you asked.
I’ve also posted this before. I want a high quality police force. Pay officers $120,000 year or whatever is high for an area. Attract better people. It seems simple, but better people make better decisions. The “cop” mentality – I’m the boss, I’m in control, I have power – is a high contributor. The cop culture. Personally, I think non-cops should be in charge of cops. Folks that understand the law. Folks that aren’t part of the culture.
To change certain elements of the police requires non-police to be in charge. And when the shroud of the cop culture is lifted, the many, many excellent officers will be able to change that culture.
I find it interesting that food and education are the last two steps of your plan. I’m glad they are there but they have to be the top priority.
You start with marriage and church which are great for some people but are not viable solutions for a big block of people. Not believing in god and being a single parent does not make someone a bad person.
I agree Obama could have done more. I think the immense pressure of being the first black president made him shy away from directly taking on problems with racism and an opportunity was missed. Why can’t trump do it? I agree he can’t but I know at least originally you were a big supporter. Has that changed? Or was this not really that important of an issue in 2016?
I strongly disagree with the idea that putting more people of color in prison for longer periods of time is going to somehow fix violence in inner cities. How many people get out of prison after long sentences and are changed for the better? I would argue focusing on the humanity all people, even (Maybe even especially) the ones committing crimes is a better way forward. I’m thinking mental health resources, counseling, job training, community involvement. I’ve met gang members and most join because they are looking for a sense of community and belonging. Find ways to give folks that and direct the energy of young people toward the public good. If you take a charismatic 18 year old and throw him in prison for 30 years, you’ve missed an opportunity to foster leadership and change in a community.
As for number 7. As far as I know, inner cities are still part of America even if they do vote blue. I wonder how many of these ideas you’d submit to yourself?
Overall, I just fundamentally disagree with most of this “plan.” A bigger hammer hitting more often is just going to cause more push back and violence. Deescalation is the key and all most of those points are going to do (besides rob people of their freedom) is cause a more violent and angered response. We have to stop thinking about PEOPLE as enemies. People are human beings and I’m always weary of what treating them as anything different does to their humanity as well as that of the enforcers.
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Here is an article showing some of the emotional toll of some of HEMs tactics: https://theathletic.com/1845455/2020/06/01/i-remember-you-crying-encountering-racism-by-staffers-at-the-athletic/
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Financial literacy is a huge issue. Some people can’t be helped with it black or white but we need to try.
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The truth is that unless you have engaged with and talked to black people you don’t understand. It helps to have seen situations first hand too. Like encountering cops while being white with a black friend. That was a fudging eye opener for a young naive to the world bshark many years ago. I stand with all my black brothers and sisters against prejudice and brutality.
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I didn’t notice any sentencing or punishment suggestions for police brutality and murder in the numerated plan above. Thoughts there?
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@benshawks08 those stories are heart breaking! I had 2 kids on my team followed around in a store in Minnesota. I asked to speak to the manager then I proceeded to tell them about their grades and the school activities they participated in and that they didn’t deserve to be Followed! I was shaking cause I was so upset! The tourney before that, in Robinson gym, hotter than hell, one of those kids would wipe the sweat of the chair for me each time we got up. Later, when school started in the fall, that same kid, a 9th grader at hutch, didn’t wake up on a sat am. A congenital heart condition. He was a straight A kid, had scored a goal for the varsity soccer team the pm before, played bb, could pitch or do track, he also was in the symphony. All of us that day in Minnesota had just a small taste of what it felt like to walk in their shoes. He had a mom and a dad.
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Happens more to people of color but just last week I was an employee following around a couple rougher looking white guys.
@benshawks08 at a minimum all four officers need to be fired. We need better laws in place to protect citizens that are abused by the police. No more temp leave, being shuffled to another town etc. You kill someone and it is shown to be not due to their own life being in danger and they should be done, and probably in jail. It starts with tougher admissions to becoming a cop.
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Thank goodness for cell phones now, at least some of them are getting caught. I pray George Zimmerman gets his!
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@Crimsonorblue22 It’s great you stood up for your kids. Just to push a little harder though because I know you can take it. What if they weren’t straight a students and involved in school activities? Would they deserve to be followed?
I get that same shaking feeling you had a lot and I think it really shows how out of touch we are with what people of color go through. It’s honestly I big reason why I started posting so much on this board. To practice confronting racism in as non threatening a place as exists for me helps me be better prepared when I encounter it in the real world. My fingers shake sometimes just typing on my phone. I’m in no danger but that adrenaline does a real number on our bodies.
Keep standing up for people with compassion and love. We need more people like you in this world.
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@benshawks08 oh yeah! They were all like my kids!
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@benshawks08 Cool. The turnoff, of course, has never been the disagreeing part.
Remember, people are and should be considered enemies from a personal/family preservation standpoint. The inner city thug that wants to kill me is my enemy. The cop that is a murderous thug is my enemy. If you want to destroy America and overthrow the government – enemy. If he wants to talk then it’s different. But let’s be clear. People are the ones that cause harm. People are who we defend against.
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On Trump, I voted for him. Trump is disgusting to me. His policies are what I strongly support. But the man is repugnant. If I could have either Obama or Trump to my house for dinner, I’d go with Obama without thinking about it. Hillary was nearly as personally repugnant and worse because she was such a part of the system. My vote was defensive, as well, to oppose what I see from the left.
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Trump is truly incapable of doing anything here. He is so hated by the left that no matter what he does, it’s mocked. Anything. But I don’t find him capable at all of being one that could unite. I do think Biden could do that. But I revert my defensive vote … the more he embraces left, left, left, the less I can really even consider that. Where is Joe Lieberman when you need him, or John Kasich for that matter?
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On point 7, if my area was high crime, out of control, I’m good with it. Further, if I travel to those areas (as I am tomorrow), I’d be good with being searched. I find it interesting that the left is very quick to ok the removal of personal liberties when there is a virus with a 3% death rate but won’t consider it in war zones. To stop the bloodshed and violence, I’ll sacrifice a bit to get that under control.
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I’d moderate on the extra prison stuff. Perhaps that wasn’t my best idea. I’m not a fan of hate crime stuff anyway. But … my motivation is to protect those that are victimized. The six year old shot on his porch because his uncle angered a drug dealer.
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Of course, being a single parent and an atheist does not make one bad. But the dynamic in the inner city is striking. Rahm Emanuel, who is very much “left” and was the mayor of Chicago for 8 years, said, near the end of his tenure -
“This may not be politically correct," he said, "but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”
It is a critical element in the discussion and should not be ignored just because some folks are anti-religion and have find it threatening when the nuclear family is valued. We know the left hates that.
The Chicago Sun-Times noted the correctness of Emanuel’s the message.
But then there are those that don’t want to discuss ALL of the issues. Countless articles. Interestingly, now, when you search, you can barely find anything reporting the comments. Rather, just the attacks. It’s all about being a victim.
An example of the anger - Shari Runner, former president and CEO of the Chicago Urban League, deemed the remarks insensitive. "I cannot see the victims of racist policies and bigoted practices shamed by anyone who says they need to do better or be better in their circumstance. I won’t accept it,” Runner said
This is a huge part of the problem. Victim. Victim. It’s a mindset.
Part of the mindset is blaming guns. Anything BUT the individual.
Further, the left says you can’t be a perpetrator if you are also a victim. It’s what we see now. All the ridiculous fawning over the proteste … er, rioters. It’s the “in” thing for all public figures to have to comment on. And if you say something that doesn’t fit the message, like Tiger Woods today, it’s attack – Woods said, correctly, that it makes no sense to burn your own neighborhoods. Can you imagine that?
But I’m sure he’s not “black” enough – at least according Biden, right? To the left, you “ain’t black” if you don’t fall in line with the left’s message.
Also, Chicago is very much an interesting case study. I encourage everyone to spend time and review the volatility during Emmanuel’s tenure. What you will find is constant complaining about over policing, under policing. About stopping crime. About harassment and brutality. I wasn’t able to find it but there was one councilman that complained one time about too many police and then a year later about not enough police to stop the crime. It’s really a sick comedy.
But it is encapsulated in the quote from the Ms. Runner above. The leftist inner city leadership takes zero responsibility, by and large. The quote is gold. They have been in charge. They claim things have gotten worse. Makes you think, if you want to think.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@BShark I have never heard that before. I hate violence! But I hate what happened to mr Floyd even more. I would’ve been arrested if I’d have been there. I couldn’t stand there and watch that. That’s murder.
Part of the tragedy of the killing of George Floyd is that the officers and bystanders all knew the same truth - there was nothing any of the bystanders could have done to intervene without putting themselves in harms way. They basically had no choice but to watch a man slowly suffocate to death, hoping (praying) that Derek Chauvin would have the humanity to let him breathe before the ultimate damage was done.
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@justanotherfan you don’t know me, lol, I still would have yelled! Called 911, something! All of that. I’ve never been arrested, but I probably would’ve been.
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In case anyone thinks this shit is just an America thing
https://mobile.twitter.com/CleKino13/status/1267645253881823233
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@BShark said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
In case anyone thinks this shit is just an America thing
https://mobile.twitter.com/CleKino13/status/1267645253881823233
Racism in the Balkans and former Soviet Block is still pretty bad with quite a few of those countries having had to play international soccer matches behind closed doors (empty stadiums) because of crowds doing/chanting racist stuff at black players. I know racism against Indians and Chinese is pretty bad in the Middle East. I’m guessing there’s still a lot of racism against black people in South Africa considering Apartheid only ended less than 30 years ago there.
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Easy solution to the cop problem. Designate areas by race and allow only cops of that race. So when your getting your ass kicked by a cop we can quickly eliminate racism as a motive and allow the media to change the focus and get rid of the bad cops quicker.
Like the link below… see I bet you never heard about. Why because both cop and suspect are the same race. Now investigate the situation without the world screaming RACISM!
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@BigBad Police brutality is not just a race problem but race is obviously a factor. Pretty sure segregation isn’t the answer. It’s been tried and failed.
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Trying to get my head wrapped around this. Serious police oversight and reform is good. Is there an honest assessment of the makeup of the protesters somewhere? I’ve heard differing stories of who is doing the looting and who is inciting action vs peaceful protest.
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Interesting video from a former longhorn: watch the whole thing for him to cover many of the questions and topics discussed above. (Sorry not your question @approxinfinity)
https://twitter.com/themanacho/status/1267609472589090816?s=21
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@approxinfinity I think you are hearing differing stories because different people are doing it everywhere. Are black people Peacefully protesting and occasionally rioting out of pure anger and frustration, yes. Are Some black people taking advantage of the chaos to loot, yep. Are other people of color doing all of the things listed above? Probably. For the same reasons? Likely? Are white people? Yes. For the same reasons? Sometimes. But their are also folks (predominantly white) who are looting, burning, commuting acts of violence, simply to discredit the peaceful protests and put people of color into further danger from police violence. It’s all of the above unfortunately which makes sorting it all out nearly impossible.
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@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
I hear folks all over saying there needs to be an “honest” conversation. I’ve tried that. I tried it here. But whenever the conversation gets uncomfortable, or it strays into territories that leftists see as off limits, the conversation ends.
Remember, police have to have a high presence in high crime areas or the good citizens will be the victims. If there is not high crime, then there is not a high police presence. That’s how it works. When police see, day after day, black men committing horrible crimes, which is a fact in the inner city. It’s an undeniable fact. The lesser of those cops take the brutality route. Day after day, the same thing.
Policing in high crime areas is not nice. Policing attracts man folks that are on power trips and that have violent tempers. The worst sort of personality one might think for the job. In some situations, their aggressiveness may save lives.
But it’s why you have police brutality. Because you have many of the wrong personalities in police work. And they can’t control themselves based on what they see day to day.
There are many pieces to this puzzle. One is that the inner city black culture, the same stuff I have railed against, has to change. That’s one piece. And until there is some sort of moral foundation, that piece will never end.
A small sampling from Minneapolis, this one from the last September. And right, you see crap like this regularly.
Of course, my thread that pretty much devolved into anything but a discussion. There is no discussion when you challenge a leftist, even if the purpose and concern is to protect the lives and safety of the good inner city folks. It doesn’t matter. You say “race”, the leftist convulses.
Folks act in cultures. Many sub-cultures are grouped by race. This is one. The destructive inner city black culture.
But guess which else is one – the cop culture. This is a huge issue that is part of the problem. But see the leftists will only acknowledge “culture” when it works for them. An important distinction when it comes to rationality.
Until the the self-inflicted issues are address in the inner city, all the money thrown that way won’t do any good. The way people think and approach life is the only thing that keeps folks from killing and maiming.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/9118/inner-city-culture/24
Here’s a post I made in this topic when asked what I’d do in the inner city -
@Kcmatt7 At the core, this starts with acknowledging the problem. That’s the impasse. Until the problem is ID’d and acknowledged, you can’t attack it. The fact is it is an inner city culture of violence. Changing culture takes a long time.
First identify “inner city safety zones.”
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Public steps to involve the churches and faiths. Get people to church in these zones. The church is a huge factor in turning this around.
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Public steps to encourage and foster marriage. Inner city safety zones that reward folks for marriage and self sufficiency. But more, public efforts to discuss and call out the “baby mama” culture. This is the real enemy. 75% single mother births among blacks. Worse among inner city blacks. Much higher than other races or cultures.
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The president has to take the lead. I felt Obama missed an historic opportunity. Trump obviously can’t do it. We need another president to make this job one. The first domestic priority. The one where the most lives are lost/destroyed.
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Have special inner city safety zone courts that expedite prosecutions, warrants, and labeling of threats.
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We have hate crime legislation that leads to outrageous results. Use that logic. Huge sentences for crimes in inner city zones were the real violence is occurring. Drive by and shoot a little black child on a porch, life in prison regardless of whether there is a death. Wear a mask in a crime, 5 more years. Robbery, any kind, 40 years. Develop a ridiculously strict sentencing structure for inner city safety zones.
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Inner city gang affiliation prosecuted as RICO crimes. Increase sentences for inner city safety zones. You go to jail for being in a criminal gang. Just for affiliation.
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Stop and frisk permitted in inner city zones of all males. Horrible? Discriminatory? Yes on both counts. Too bad. Males are 95% of the problem.
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If you have a felony conviction for anything violent, or you are an ID’d gang member by the safety zone courts, inner city zone warrants automatically issued for random searches of home and auto. Inner city courts can order drug treatment without a trial. 90 day commitments.
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In inner city safety zones, curfews strictly enforced. Cars pulled over after 10:00. People off the streets. Only to and from work and a few other exceptions. Businesses close at 9:00.
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Posting of army style officers that walk a beat in these areas. In pairs. No female cops in these areas. No male cops under 200 pounds. Much higher pay. Elite training. Federal involvement in supporting/training.
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Air surveillance, like a war zone.
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Massive use of food kitchens. Free meals in all inner city safety zones. No one starves. No one steals for food. Involvement of churches is a must.
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Partnership program for schools with suburban districts. Vouchers (money) for “tuition” and transport. Partnership programs include working families so inner city kids can live with suburban families during the week and attend school there. Work with the suburban private schools too.
These are tax dollars I’m willing to pay.
Of course, this is all discriminatory. I want to discriminate IN FAVOR of protecting good inner city folks. I noticed that over 70% of Baltimore residents were in favor of police air surveillance while the ACLU says it’s discriminatory. That should tell everyone something. The majority of inner city folks aren’t part of the culture. They want safety, security, and the ability to succeed.
These thugs are the enemy. Try to change their hearts and minds, but attack the criminals is they won’t change. Culture change takes time.
This isn’t perfect. It’s a discussion point. I am just sickened by the violence and the loss of lives that no one values.
Just off the top of my head. I know, impossible. But you asked.
I’ve also posted this before. I want a high quality police force. Pay officers $120,000 year or whatever is high for an area. Attract better people. It seems simple, but better people make better decisions. The “cop” mentality – I’m the boss, I’m in control, I have power – is a high contributor. The cop culture. Personally, I think non-cops should be in charge of cops. Folks that understand the law. Folks that aren’t part of the culture.
To change certain elements of the police requires non-police to be in charge. And when the shroud of the cop culture is lifted, the many, many excellent officers will be able to change that culture.
I’m good with encouraging better behavior. It’s abundantly clear from the data that if you graduate high school, get married, then have children (the order is important), the chances of you being in poverty are minuscule, like under 1%.
- Absolutely unconstitutional.
- Hate crime legislation is dumb, but frankly state and local governments don’t have the resources to handle the huge increase in policing and warehousing of inmates. If we want a real world example, look at 3 strikes laws. Most of the evidence doesn’t find much effect on crime. And the costs of enforcement are obviously sky high.
- Re: stop and frisk, it did reduce crime but not to the extent most believe and costs are exorbitant.
- Very unconstitutional.
- Emergency powers are pretty limited outside narrow circumstances of an ongoing emergency, think like a hurricane. Courts would not look kindly on a permanent declaration, as we’ve seen from some of the COVID politics.
- Militarization of police doesn’t really reduce crime, just makes police more lethal. Pass on that. Montana is a model in demilitarizing its police forces.
- School choice is a good idea. Should be expanded.
So what would I do? There are a handful of low hanging fruit type things we can do to both reduce police violence and crime. And I’m trained public policy doctor (i.e. not the kind that helps people) so I can geek out on things we know worked. And I have receipts, as the youths would say.
- End qualified immunity. It makes no sense to protect police from all but the worst criminal conduct. Effectively, you can only sue and win for getting killed, which seems not ideal.
- Ban police unions. I wish we’d get rid of all public sector unions, but I’ll start here. Unions have one purpose: to protect its members. For example, union contracts can wipe officer disciplinary records every 60 days (!), give officers access to video of incidents before they give a statement, and gives officers paid leave after a shooting. Just reprehensible stuff. Probably the best paper on this I’ve seen found the right to bargain led to a 40% (!) increase in violent police incidents.
- End the Pentagon’s program of transferring military equipment to local PD’s. A pretty solid paper found 1033 transfers caused a 129% increase in civilian deaths in a given county. Police in our cities looking like paramilitary forces decreases trust, makes it more dangerous for both cops and citizens, and is generally a waste of money.
- De-police some 911 calls. In a former life, I was part of an effort dispatch mental health first aid workers instead of or with police on calls that involved an obviously sick individual. I can’t find the source (since it’s Kansas, it’s probably not electronic, woof) but something like 10% of calls involved dispatching a mental health worker. If we have pros who are used to dealing with the mentally ill, we drastically reduce the risk of a cop killing someone who’s sick and needs treatment, not prison.
- The federal government needs robust resources to conduct civil rights reviews on local PD’s. Turns out, accountability works.
- Limit use of force police can lawfully take. Biggest few items are: use firearms as a last resort, ban chokeholds, and increase reporting of incidents (see #2). All these bans reduced police-involved killings by over 20%.
- Screen applicants to police jobs by IQ. Yeah, IQ is controversial, which has always struck me as weird, but turns out we’ve done this and it worked. Like really well. Nobody with an IQ below 95 should be eligible to become a police officer. Full stop.
- And the final salvo, end the drug war. Seriously, by almost every metric it’s been a complete and utter failure. The most prominent results are people like Pablo Escobar and the Mexican cartels. Just to put some more meat on these bones, we’ve really cracked down on cocaine and marijuana possession since the 70’s, yet we’re importing as much cocaine now as we did in the early 80’s. Effectively, the War on Drugs has not stemmed the supply side of hard drugs here in the US. As a success story, Texas instituted drug courts to funnel people to treatment instead of jail and ended up closing about one prison per year over the last decade.
Tl;dr. We can do this by trusting individuals to do the right thing and repealing a bunch of bad laws. Change incentives and behavior changes. It’s a Christmas miracle!
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@FarmerJayhawk Those all sound like a good start.
I go back and forth on unions because as a teacher (and specifically as a special Education teacher for 5 years) I’ve seen the good and bad of teacher unions. They provide a singular voice that can advocate for raises and structural changes that have made life better for teachers. At the same time, I’ve watched unions handcuff administrators from getting rid of objectively bad teachers.
With more and more money filtering up instead of trickling down, unions are essential to leveling the playing field but I agree the police unions are notoriously awful and a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
Your list is about as good of list as I’ve seen and I appreciate you note they are “low hanging fruit” meaning there are larger systems changes need beyond those as well.
Well done.
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@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk Those all sound like a good start.
I go back and forth on unions because as a teacher (and specifically as a special Education teacher for 5 years) I’ve seen the good and bad of teacher unions. They provide a singular voice that can advocate for raises and structural changes that have made life better for teachers. At the same time, I’ve watched unions handcuff administrators from getting rid of objectively bad teachers.
With more and more money filtering up instead of trickling down, unions are essential to leveling the playing field but I agree the police unions are notoriously awful and a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
Your list is about as good of list as I’ve seen and I appreciate you note they are “low hanging fruit” meaning there are larger systems changes need beyond those as well.
Well done.
Thank ya. My view is teachers’ unions are net negatives to kids (Caroline Hoxby has done great work on the topic). But police unions are an obvious negative. In general, I’m very uncomfortable with the notion of public servants striking against the neediest in society.
The one thing I didn’t get to because I don’t have my head wrapped around entirely yet is a rewrite of criminal codes. I think we have far too many laws and regulations on the books, which complicates the job of law enforcement beyond what is necessary or even good. That’s sort of the coup de gras I’m after in this whole shindig. My man Chris Arnade (if you haven’t read his boom Dignity, please do. It’s required for understanding real poverty) calls it libertarianism for the upper class, authoritarianism for the lower class. I want the forever for everyone!
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Apparently, I am THE most naive, ignorant person on the face of the earth. I CANNOT believe that race is even a thing. I can’t believe it. I’m not going to sit here and tell you I’m a saint. Most of you know that’s BS and my family and friends will all attest to the fact that I am NOT. But I can tell you this for sure - I don’t give a shit what color someone’s skin is. What does that have to do with ANYTHING??? I talk to people on the phone all day long - most of them I’ve never met and probably never will meet. I don’t know if they’re short, tall, black, white, in a wheelchair, whatever. I like or dislike that person based on their personality. If I met them in person (and many I have) it doesn’t change what I think of them. I have talked to guys that sound like Mr Rogers and look like one of the Duck Dynasty guys. I’ve met women that sounded like Marilyn Monroe and looked like Mama June (old style Mama June). It doesn’t matter. I didn’t say, “Well, shit - they don’t meet my physical profile needs. I’m done with them.” NO - I had already established that I liked them and their appearance doesn’t change that.
What the hell, people? Try liking / trusting / helping someone first. THEN, if they screw you over - throw them under the bus. Preferably not literally. I just can’t believe we call ourselves a civilized society and treat people like this.
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@FarmerJayhawk I’m conflicted on unions. A couple of years ago, I failed a student because they were lazy and never did any work and the kid and their parents tried to get me fired claiming I was bullying and targeting the kid and filed a complaint against me with the school board after the school year ended. The lawyer the union provided me was able to prove this was a pattern of behavior by the parents, but because my district always kowtows to parents, our union is the only thing keeping a lot of teachers from undeservedly losing their jobs.
I would go with unions need to be reformed, but they are definitely still needed in a lot industries, including education.
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@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@benshawks08 Cool. The turnoff, of course, has never been the disagreeing part.
Remember, people are and should be considered enemies from a personal/family preservation standpoint. The inner city thug that wants to kill me is my enemy. The cop that is a murderous thug is my enemy. If you want to destroy America and overthrow the government – enemy. If he wants to talk then it’s different. But let’s be clear. People are the ones that cause harm. People are who we defend against.
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On Trump, I voted for him. Trump is disgusting to me. His policies are what I strongly support. But the man is repugnant. If I could have either Obama or Trump to my house for dinner, I’d go with Obama without thinking about it. Hillary was nearly as personally repugnant and worse because she was such a part of the system. My vote was defensive, as well, to oppose what I see from the left.
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Trump is truly incapable of doing anything here. He is so hated by the left that no matter what he does, it’s mocked. Anything. But I don’t find him capable at all of being one that could unite. I do think Biden could do that. But I revert my defensive vote … the more he embraces left, left, left, the less I can really even consider that. Where is Joe Lieberman when you need him, or John Kasich for that matter?
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On point 7, if my area was high crime, out of control, I’m good with it. Further, if I travel to those areas (as I am tomorrow), I’d be good with being searched. I find it interesting that the left is very quick to ok the removal of personal liberties when there is a virus with a 3% death rate but won’t consider it in war zones. To stop the bloodshed and violence, I’ll sacrifice a bit to get that under control.
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I’d moderate on the extra prison stuff. Perhaps that wasn’t my best idea. I’m not a fan of hate crime stuff anyway. But … my motivation is to protect those that are victimized. The six year old shot on his porch because his uncle angered a drug dealer.
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Of course, being a single parent and an atheist does not make one bad. But the dynamic in the inner city is striking. Rahm Emanuel, who is very much “left” and was the mayor of Chicago for 8 years, said, near the end of his tenure -
“This may not be politically correct," he said, "but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”
It is a critical element in the discussion and should not be ignored just because some folks are anti-religion and have find it threatening when the nuclear family is valued. We know the left hates that.
The Chicago Sun-Times noted the correctness of Emanuel’s the message.
But then there are those that don’t want to discuss ALL of the issues. Countless articles. Interestingly, now, when you search, you can barely find anything reporting the comments. Rather, just the attacks. It’s all about being a victim.
An example of the anger - Shari Runner, former president and CEO of the Chicago Urban League, deemed the remarks insensitive. "I cannot see the victims of racist policies and bigoted practices shamed by anyone who says they need to do better or be better in their circumstance. I won’t accept it,” Runner said
This is a huge part of the problem. Victim. Victim. It’s a mindset.
Part of the mindset is blaming guns. Anything BUT the individual.
Further, the left says you can’t be a perpetrator if you are also a victim. It’s what we see now. All the ridiculous fawning over the proteste … er, rioters. It’s the “in” thing for all public figures to have to comment on. And if you say something that doesn’t fit the message, like Tiger Woods today, it’s attack – Woods said, correctly, that it makes no sense to burn your own neighborhoods. Can you imagine that?
But I’m sure he’s not “black” enough – at least according Biden, right? To the left, you “ain’t black” if you don’t fall in line with the left’s message.
Also, Chicago is very much an interesting case study. I encourage everyone to spend time and review the volatility during Emmanuel’s tenure. What you will find is constant complaining about over policing, under policing. About stopping crime. About harassment and brutality. I wasn’t able to find it but there was one councilman that complained one time about too many police and then a year later about not enough police to stop the crime. It’s really a sick comedy.
But it is encapsulated in the quote from the Ms. Runner above. The leftist inner city leadership takes zero responsibility, by and large. The quote is gold. They have been in charge. They claim things have gotten worse. Makes you think, if you want to think.
I just can’t disagree more about the enemy stuff. No one is going to want to talk if you show up armed to teeth with preconceived notions about them being the enemy. I fully believe that what you get from people is mostly a reflection of what you put out. And if all you can think is enemy enemy enemy, enemies you will have.
Help with the logic on Trump. You dislike him, find him Repugnant, would rather have obama over for dinner (?), and are positive he cannot fox what you yourself have claimed to be the biggest issue facing our nation and one that is life or death. But with all that said are still pretty sure you will vote for him over Biden (who you admit might be able to address the issue) because “the left.”
What could possibly be more dangerous than a vile repugnant man incapable of fostering unity being allowed to “lead” (because are you leading of a majority aren’t following) the country for four more years, knowing that he’s already been impeached and it would be virtually impossible to remove him for anything he might do. Remember this repugnance we are all witnessing is him trying to get re-elected. What does it look like when he no longer cares?
I believe you when you say you care about life and people. And I can generally see from your posts you are not stupid. So I just can’t understand this stance.
As for the church stuff, know my dad was a preacher and I grew up basically living in united Methodist churches. But the government cannot get involved in sponsoring religious activities. Do churches with an abundance from their affluent suburban flock need to do more outreach? Yes. These mega churches drive me crazy with the amount of tax free revenue they seem to only reinvest in their own blossoming communities (generally newer bigger buildings for themselves to use). But the government cannot and should not be advocating or sponsoring any religion as part of policy.
As for the less police, more police dynamic you speak of, the goal should be to reduce police presence AND increase services at the same time.
Victim hood is a dangerous mindset but I would argue oppression is more dangerous. Work to fix the inequity and then there are no victims. It always seems you are advocating for “personal responsibility” for those who are shouldering the heaviest burden and have the least power and control in society. I’m glad to see you agree the police officer in this most recent incident is responsible for murder. If he was willing to do that with a smirk on his face as people recorded him and three other officers helped, how much pain and suffering did those officers cause in that community when no one was looking. Who is responsible for that communities distrust of authority? Who is responsible for the anger bubbling over right now? It’s tough to take personal responsibility with a knee on your neck and four more on your back. That’s what I think Shari Runner’s quote is saying. And yeah, it’s gold.
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Here is an org with a clear plan and actionable steps to enact change of anyone is interested. A lot of similarities to stuff posted by @FarmerJayhawk
