Tennessee Post Game=PG Play
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OH MAN …did you see it? Did you catch it? Did you see the new star? You know…the guy with the swag in the middle?You know who I’m talking about…the star of the Jayhawks …the guy that had his coming out party today…Mr. Alexander? A star is born. The leader of our team made an appearance today, and he was HUGE. We are a different team when he is on the floor. I can’t wait to see what he will do against Sparty…
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@BeddieKU23 “I think we have seen some seperation in the rotation. Ellis, Mason, Svi, and Selden are clearly ahead. I think its wise to Keep Lucas with his size in there because he buys Cliff 4-5 minutes of non-fouls. Cliff is going to start at some point…”
I suppose the question is when to start Alexander and only Self knows. I feels as if we keep this trips rotation scheme in place for Sunday. For me it would be good to keep Lucas starting and protecting Alexander through the Florida, Georgetown stretch too. Utah is two weeks away, LaFayette is in three weeks and Kent State is a month out. Will it happen in December? If both Lucas and Alexander are going to be clocking the same amount of minutes that they are now then keep Alexander on the bench to save him for closing.
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Now we have MSU, Florida, & Georgetown back to back to back, with only the Florida game in the friendly confines of AFH. We’re going to get an early snapshot of just what these young men can become. Looking back, that friggin schedule last year was just absolutely brutal. Sure hope coach learned from that lesson about “too much, too soon.”
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Did you see calmly Mason dribbling through the trees to the foul line on a half court set then kicking the ball back to open guys on the perimeter? This was a glimpse of the x axis game everyone was waiting for. This and his finishes with floaters was less Sherron, more CP3/Nash. The deep deep oop to Alexander was spot on. I love seeing this guy have swag executing the right play. Also the steal on the sideline, instantly having control and pushing the ball the length of the floor for a transition bucket. FRANK FOR MVP.
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@globaljaybird Essentially, MSU has 3 vets ( Dawson, Trice, and Valentine) vs. Perry, Frank, and Wayne. Beyond that, we have worlds more depth than Sparty. The question is: can we limit their top 3? They scored at will against Marquette. I wish we were playing this game a month from now …
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Good comments. I am SOLD on Mason. Kid is solid. Like a faster VanVleet, just a bit more athletic (kid has springs), and I consider VanVleet an A-rated Div.1 PG. Sold on Graham, but he’s learning the O. Same for Oubre…I’m not down on Kelly at all, just needs time. Greene has a knack for big threes, but man does he seem to have clunky slow feet on D. Greene is the victor in the AW3 battle, as well as FrankampGate-exit. Svi can play! Again, he is the complete young player. Now we see why he is a 5star player, at age 17.
Big Cliff showing us the whole pkg, & I commented to family that he also shown he ca avoid quick fouls, compared to frosh TRob or Arthur.
Lucas = ready to play. Credit Self.
Credit Self with this unSelfian BeFreeTo3 mentality. To give a 17yr old kid + this whole team a green light on 3s just feels like new territory for Self. Hate to say it, but this inside-first, but now-OK to take a rhythm3 anytime in the possession resembles Duke a bit, but that formula shouldnt bother anybody. Its not Self copying anybody, but just happenning now based on time/circumstance of what skills we have on the roster.
Self realized, that to open up things for the bigs, he’s got to make people fear our 3gunners. Ultimately, we develop confidence in our 3game, and with Self’s tough inside play mentality, along with very versatile guards who are getting better at drive/dish/shoot decisions…we become a very balanced & deep team.
Finally, Oubre staying another year is a GOOD thing…he may be like Selden & stay multiple seasons. Better for him, better for Selden, better for Self’s system. Love to have top30 guys for multiple seasons!
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@KUSTEVE I just made similar comments on the other thread. They also have Forbes, who is a transfer and a very good shooter. They also have some other experienced guys (Costell, Schilling) I agree, they are further along than we are at this point in the season due to their experience.
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@ralster We would all like to see Oubre stay longer than one year. Based on the development so far that would seem to be a good possibility. But…he could demonstrate his potential, play a lot and go on a mini scoring binge for, say, 3 games in the post season…that could be enough for him to be guaranteed a high draft pick in today’s world. So, you never know.
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@Hawk8086 We’re more talented - they’re more experienced. Can we play with the poise that is necessary to beat an Izzo team?
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I will say that there is no way that we get back all of our perimeter players for next season. Six deserving players is one too many.
Someone will have to go.
I’ll go a step further - I think two will end up going after this season. All six are of the skill level that deserves major minutes, and not scraps. It has to happen.
In the meantime, we can enjoy perhaps the deepest group of perimeter players KU has ever had.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
I will say that there is no way that we get back all of our perimeter players for next season. Six deserving players is one too many.
Someone will have to go.
I’ll go a step further - I think two will end up going after this season. All six are of the skill level that deserves major minutes, and not scraps. It has to happen.
In the meantime, we can enjoy perhaps the deepest group of perimeter players KU has ever had.
The only way that holds true is if either situation happen:
Selden turns it on and becomes more of the offense, continues to play good d, keeps racking up the assists and keeps his 3pt shooting & FT #'s up. Right now I’d only say he’s racking up the assists & playing good d. That won’t get him the guaranteed 1st round pick. He’s going to have to really pick it up to be back in the stock rising column.
Oubre really gets over the freshman wall and starts playing instead of thinking. Becomes a key part of the rotation and shows the Athleticism, shooting and Defense we all know he’s got.
While there is plenty of time for both to do some of these things that will get scouts back on them, right now they haven’t. Right now there is a good chance everyone on the perimeter is coming back. We aren’t really recruiting guards, Dorsey seems likely going west, Jaylen Brown has seen other teams join the race since he singled out KU and UK this fall as “leaders”.
Greene has shown he can play and will be apart of the rotation. Svi has been better than advertised in area’s especially starting games this early. He will be back. Mason and Graham holding down the PG situation. We could in theory return everyone on the perimeter which would be great since our attrition at the guard spots has been horrid of late.
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@HighEliteMajor Two huh? You don’t think there’s enough minutes to go around for 5? I think Self might be able to keep 5 happy. To do this though, he has to acknowledge the top 5 and drop the 6th man (right now that’s Oubre) from getting minutes all together. He can’t give that 6th guy 4-5 mpg like he is now. Distributing those elsewhere is likely the difference between a guy playing 10 mpg and being disgruntled and leaving, and playing 15 mpg and being placated enough to stay.
This will also severly hinder any attempts to bring in a top tier perimeter recruit in the spring. Which I’d be fine with, assuming Self can keep 5 of the current players on the team. This is also operating under the assumption that no one turns pro, which as I was postulating earlier it doesn’t look like anyone on the perimeter is that close, IMO.
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@BeddieKU23 You seem to avoid the word “transfer.” Let say this – like, I’d bet a large some of money on it – all six won’t be back. You mention that “in theory” we could return all six. That’s not theory, that’s crazy talk, my man.
Let’s try one example. Say that Oubre gets more minutes, hits some threes, and plays good defense heading into February. He squeezes Greene’s minutes. Self shows a preference for Oubre over Greene. Svi stays at 20 mpg. Even now, the 6th guy is getting 4-5 minutes (Oubre). Say Greene is odd man out this season and Oubre returns for his sophomore year. All others are back. Why would Greene even consider returning? Or let’s assume that Greene remains ahead of Oubre but is the 5th perimeter guy; and Oubre leaves, but Self gets a commit from Jaylen Brown.
Example #2. Mason’s play regresses. Graham takes over in late January. Mason still gets 12 or so mpg, but Graham is clearly the man. Regardless of who comes back, wouldn’t Mason consider transferring given that a player one class behind him is preferred the starter? Meaning his career would be as a back up. Or flip it around. What if Mason is a stud and Graham is getting 12 per game? Will he want to stay at a spot where his only season to start might be his senior season?
Example #3. Oubre rides the bench all season. His draft stock slips. Everyone is back. It becomes clear that Oubre does not fit with what Self wants to do. Oubre needs to reestablish himself to get drafted. An Oubre transfer would then make sense.
One will go. Transfer or turning pro. Book it.
Now, @icthawkfan316, the question becomes will there be two? I don’t think that there is enough to go around for 5 guys unless Self changes his normal philosophy. Usually, that 5th spot is limited minutes. You are exactly right. He could keep 5 happy, but he’d have to eliminate the gratuitous 6th man minutes all together --> Ex. Mason 30, Selden 30, Svi 22, Greene 20, Graham 18. But that would require a major change in how Self does things. What will make that hard is what we saw yesterday (and throughout his tenure). In crunch time, he’ll go with who he feels most comfortable with. He chose Greene over Svi. That means four guys at most. Fifth guy with lower minutes. We think he could do more, but when the game’s on the line, he plays the guys he thinks will win the game.
I agree, as well, that I’d be fine if we could keep 5 of the 6 and get no new recruits. Actually, that is my major preference. I particularly don’t want to lose guys because we get the next OAD (Brown, for example). Let’s just get Bragg and another big.
Heading into next season, this group of perimeter players will be the best in the country. I wouldn’t trade this group for any other group.
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@HighEliteMajor So the Frankamp transfer, given its timing, was a practically necessary clarification. If Frankamp was leaving, much better leave the team now and not use up a single minute - easier to say when everybody else is hitting 3s… Same for AWIII when you think of it.
What you really meant is 3 will have left for sure, and probably 4 - counting those two.
On not recruiting a perimeter player for next year: I get the reasoning, but what about later years? If too many of those guys leave at the same time, our cupboard is bare and we’re back to the problem that put us on the OAD merry-go-round in the first place.
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@ParisHawk speaking of CF- quitter- he and his family at the WSU game, again.
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@ParisHawk Ah yes, the OAD merry-go-round. Tyler Dorsey is ranked #19 by Rivals and Brandon Ingram at #18 would not be likely OADs. Jaylen Brown and Malik Newman are considered likely OADs. That’s it on the perimeter. Last I heard, we’re not leaders on any of them. @konkeyDong’s input would be helpful here. I had heard Ingram was either KU or UK, but then I heard UNC was more likely. Many think Dorsey is leaning to California. But we’re squarely in with him.
They’re the only perimeter guys we’re now recruiting. Ingram is more of three. Dorsey a two that wants to be a PG. So perhaps perfect situation is that one leaves (not Mason or Graham as we need the PGs), and we sign Dorsey as our sixth.
What does become tough, though, is getting caught – say we keep 5 and get none of the perimeter guys this season. Perhaps we add an unranked scrub as our 6th guy. Then the next season we lose three of them. That’s where the merry-go-round inflicts some pain.
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Some how I see it as highly unlikely that Oubre transfers. If he does that he would have to sit one year and then play at least one more. His best shot, time-wise, is come up to sped and improve his stock this year and maybe stay an extra year. The other option would be going to the Development League or Europe. He is got too much potential to delay his entry in the League by at least two years if he transfers. I was not surprised to see Frankamp transfer since his schedule is quite different and he is long, long shot to make it to the NBA, so an extra year in college would not hurt and may actually help him.
Greene is a different situation insofar as he has already invested 2 years at KU. He has NBA level potential on offense but his defense is lagging far behind. If he can improve his defense, and stays 2 more years, I can see him playing in the NBA; no better place to learn defense than KU.
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@HighEliteMajor The PG scenarios you laid out in your “Example #2” are the scariest. We’ve been searching for solid PG play for so long! We got close to a year of it with senior Tyshawn (and maybe first semester junior Tyshawn too I suppose). That’s it since Sherron left. And now we have two guys, a sophomore & a freshman, that I think most are very excited about. It would be a shame to lose either.
@JayHawkFanToo I think regarding Oubre you are caught up on his “potential” and high school ranking. You are not alone. Obviously Self is (or was) in the same boat, hence the UK start. But who is he going to overtake for minutes? It’s highly unlikely he’s going to shoot as well as Greene. Svi looks to be more polished at every phase of the game, so surpassing him seems unlikely. He’s not going to surpass Selden. His best shot is that Selden leaves after this year, thus allowing him to at least be the 5th perimeter option. But ask yourself: in a scenario where Selden, Graham (who could steal minutes at the 2), Svi, & Greene all stay…how is he going to improve his stock at KU? Who do you honestly see him beating out?
As I’ve said in previous posts, I thought he was supposed to be a stud on the defensive end, and that would endear him to Self and thus enable him to see the court for significant minutes. It could still happen; he has the height, length, & athleticism that make him an attractive option. But the point is he was supposed to further along already; more “out-of-the-box” ready. Apparently he isn’t, so it must be taught & learned. And that’s put him on the outside looking in, where his opportunities to impress will be extremely limited.
I could be wrong, and Self could get paranoid about scaring off top recruits and begin playing him without merit again. Or everything could click for him, the game could slow down, and he might live up to his lofty ranking this year after all. But if he can’t make up ground in-season this year and overtake someone for minutes, and if nobody leaves, why would he stay?
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@icthawkfan316 I agree that it is difficult to see whom Oubre is going to beat out. But I think he does have an advantage over Greene and Svi. While he may not have the basketball IQ that Svi does or the pure shooting stroke that either one has, I think he is an overall better athlete. I think he is quicker, faster, stronger than they are…that is why he was a McDonald’s AA and a success on the AAU circuit. He hasn’t shown much of those skills because he is “thinking rather than playing”. He has shown a couple of flashes of talent…a couple of drives to the basket that looked very quick and smooth to me. His time could come out of a combination of Greene/ Svi/ Graham minutes. This would result in more guys in the rotation than Self usually employs…and you would be justified in saying that won’t happen. But, I think one way or the other Oubre’s natural talent, and Self’s desire to get playing time for a McDonald’s AA will result in Oubre playing more as the season progresses.
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It is not potential alone. I have seen Oubre play in a couple of all-star games and he was excellent; also, if you look at the Kentucky game, granted not the best game to evaluate players, but Oubre was the best KU player at that game. I have no doubts that Oubre can play, he is just having a harder time than other players adapting to Coach Self’s system, maybe thinking too much like @Hawk8086 mentioned, but once he becomes more familiar with it, I would not be surprised if he starts later in the season.
Also, as far as not having enough time. I just don’t buy it. If UK can find time for 10 McD All-Americans, I am sure Coach self can find time for his less heralded players. There is no reason why the team cannot have 5 players averaging 25+/- minuted and 5 others averaging 15+/- minutes. Maybe We can platoon like UK…
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@JayHawkFanToo I agree, I watched Oubre play and he was a stud!! I think Self will rotate them and give the hot hand more time! That will change from game to game. No platoon! Never want to hear that again!
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Sorry???
Coach Self has been doing a lighter version of it already; maybe we can come up with name of our own…any ideas?
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@JayHawkFanToo he’s NOT subbing 5 for 5.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Also, as far as not having enough time. I just don’t buy it. If UK can find time for 10 McD All-Americans, I am sure Coach self can find time for his less heralded players.
I am sure that it is possible to play that many players (we are obviously seeing it at Kentucky), but what evidence have we seen from Self that he will change? This isn’t the first team we’ve thought was deep, yet come conference play, it’s 8 players. Maybe 9. You might not buy it, but you’re not the buyer. You have to sell it to Self. And for 10 plus years in Lawrence, he hasn’t looked to be in the market for that. As has been pointed out, we saw it in the Tennessee game. Come crunch time, his rotation shrinks. So yeah, they’ll be playing Lafayette in 3 weeks and in a blowout he’ll distribute the minutes out a little more, but for the majority of the season…don’t bet on it.
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@JayHawkFanToo Really, though, the all star games don’t mean much when translating to a coach Self coached team. But I saw the same thing you did. What we saw was not (Self) team basketball. What Oubre showed in those all star games may translate better to a non system coach, or to a coach that is not so demanding or precise in his requirements. I think that explains a bit why many other top 15 or so guys are starting every game, and playing big minutes. I think part of the answer too is that we have other options and thus he doesn’t get on the job training.
I will be surprised if Oubre starts this season based on merit vs. another national TV game against a team we’re competing with for recruits. This for one main reason – Svi.
I just struggle to see how he overtakes Svi. Is there anything that Oubre, even if you look at his potential, does better than Svi? All I can identify is perhaps slashing to the hoop. The game changer is that Svi is much, much better defensively than we could ever have imagined. He is a tremendous passer and ball mover. Svi won’t stagnate, either. Meaning, Oubre may start grasping more, but Svi will too. If Svi starts hitting the three, he will be the best all around player on this team.
Also, don’t forget that Svi is projected to go #4 in the 2016 NBA draft. He has as much or more “potential” than Oubre, who was projected top 10. (for whatever it’s worth, Oubre, has completely dropped out of the draft projection at nbadraft.net – Cliff is down to #15 by the way).
I think we just assume Oubre is going to magically get better, and adapt, and learn, and assimilate. Compare to the exact same discussion many of us had about Josh Selby. It is not a given. And I think the risk of non-assimilation is greater on a coach Self coached team.
Actually, I think Oubre’s chances to start next season hinge totally on two things – whether Selden and Svi return. If they both come back, I think both will start next season at the 2/3.
Think of it this way. If you could draft a team for next season from current KU players, who would be your first choice right now?
I’d pick Svi.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Lots of guys are studs in high school. Just like lots of guys are studs at the collegiate level. Yet that doesn’t always translate to the next level. Maybe Oubre comes around. It’s possible. But he’s behind the rest of the perimeter players right now, so it will be an uphill battle for him. The one thing he has working for him are his lofty high school ranking & credentials. As has been discussed, Self seemed to pander to that once and it’s well within the realm of possibility that it happens again.
The issue really isn’t whether Oubre can play or not. The issue is opportunity. Minutes. Available playing time. However you want to phrase it. HEM has discussed this at length on many occasions. We’ve seen it season after season. Someone is on the outside looking in at available playing time, and often that leads to a transfer. Look at CF. Last year Self did just enough with both him & Greene to keep them around. Not rotation level minutes, but (depending on how you want to look at it) he either carved out a limited role for them or threw them scraps of minutes. That led to both players returning this year. But after awhile CF saw the writing on the wall and knew it would be doubtful he cracked the regular rotation this season, and knew he’d be in a dogfight for playing time for the remainder of his time at KU, so he elected to leave.
That situation is what I am predicting for Oubre. Just an objective assessment of the situation. There’s no immediate playing time guaranteed to open up at the 2 or the 3, and he’s behind 3 players for minutes right now (4 if you include Graham playing alongside Mason for stretches). There’s also no guarantee Self doesn’t recruit over him with the next OAD flavor of the month. Circumstances could change, sure. The scenarios are as follows:
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He overtakes someone for playing time in the midst of the current season. The most likely candidate is Greene, due to his sub-par defense. Svi would be the next candidate, assuming he never finds his shooting touch and Oubre can make some gains on him in other areas.
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Selden turns pro after this season. As I’ve said, I find this unlikely at this point, as he would have to see a moderate uptick in his scoring.
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Svi heads home after one season.
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Injury.
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He doesn’t overtake anyone for minutes this season, yet he feels he improves enough between his freshman & sophomore campaign that he can unseat someone next year.
Over the summer I had predicted Oubre would step right in for Wiggins and would be the starter, so it’s not like I haven’t been high on him as you and @JayHawkFanToo still are. But so far, even including the Kentucky game (which for all the talk about him being the best player in that game, Self saw fit to play him a whopping 13 minutes), he looks to be lagging behind, which if he stays there puts him on the transfer watch.
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@icthawkfan316 I agree with you completely. Every year (except 2011-12) we’re deep. We’re going to expand the rotation. 2009-10 (TRob, EJ), then 2010-11 (Releford, EJ), 2012-13 (White and Adams), and last season. It never happens.
I’d say 2010-11 is the best comparison. We had 10 guys average over 10 mpg during the season. But even that was misleading. Many of Releford’s minutes were token minutes. That left nine. Mario Little didn’t really play many meaningful minutes. EJ was shut out of many, many important situations. Four of those guys (Little, Releford, EJ, and Selby) got ditched in many key games and situations.
The idea on a rotation is that they are regular and consistent contributors. Self has never done that.
Look at the boxscore for the Big 12 title game. EJ had played admirably for TT during his suspension, then got just a handful of minutes. Selby had averaged bigger minutes, then hardly anything. Look at the box score for our first round NCAA game vs. the vaunted Boston Terriers. 7 guys in double figures on a team where 10 guys averaged double figures.
The point is that even with an incredibly deep team, and even with the #1 recruit on the bench, Self will revert to prior form. He’ll choose his most trusted guys, and go with them when it counts.
Heck, look at it right now. He’s already done that this season in the second half of games.
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@HighEliteMajor Your points on Svi are valid. But, I could see Oubre take some of Greene’s minutes…or a combination of Greene and other players.
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@icthawkfan316 did you see Oubre play this past summer? He was playing against other standout players. I’m not talking about hs. Guess we will wait and see.
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@Hawk8086 Svi needs to start hitting. I thought he was doing better last game, but didn’t play much. I think we use the 10.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Agreed, Svi needs to hit his 3s.
Also, remember, we may “use” 10 guys. Self “used” 10 in 2009-10 for over 10 mpg. But we clearly didn’t have a 10 man rotation. We didn’t have a 9 man rotation. He’d give Releford some minutes in the first half, then a nibble in the second. He added minutes in mop up to get to 10. Much the same way with Little. He’d basically get a some here and there, and when fouls were an issue to get to 13 per game. EJ would flat sit for long stretches. No “rotation” there.
Do you see that differently; or when you say “use”, do you mean just “use” in terms of "play, and not a rotation of 10?
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@HighEliteMajor I think we rotate 10, providing Oubre improves like I think he will. Cliff will have trouble w/fouls, Greene could get in the doghouse, injuries, cold shooting. Mostly match ups. With 3 pt shooting, some days you are off, next guy might be hot. Selden has been looking better, but before these last few games I could see him sitting more. Jmo
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah I saw him at the Nike Hoop Summit. He guarded Emmanuel Mudiay and looked very good doing it. But how much stock do we put in all-star games? Games with thrown together talent meant to showcase those individual talents. The purpose of those games is not to win. How one fits onto a team, within a system, and against a majority of players who have adapted to the college game is very different than how someone looks against other high school stars all looking to get theirs. I’m with HEM…how much do those summer games really mean when trying to translate his performance to a Self coached team?
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@icthawkfan316 I guess I do. I saw superb athleticism, desire to keep his man from scoring, and a team player.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
I saw superb athleticism, desire to keep his man from scoring, and a team player.
And if all those were translating from summer league all-star games to Self’s system, don’t you think he’d be playing more? Those are all things Self values, especially the defense.
Again, that’s what we’re talking about: not what we saw prior to his arrival at KU, but what we’ve seen on the court now. I don’t disagree with what you saw. I saw it too. But I haven’t seen those things translate to this level. And my point is when it does translate, will it be too late to overtake Svi or Greene for minutes? Because they are going to continue to improve as well, likely at a higher rate because they are seeing more game action right now. He’s not going to steal them from Selden, barring a complete breakdown of Self-fundamentals on Wayne’s part.
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@icthawkfan316 just a difference of opinion.
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“Don’t you think the killer instinct thing was at least partially on display by the nice finish?”
Finishing well is probably the #1 characteristic you want to see in a team.
But for me… “killer instinct” is the instinct of pouncing on your prey when you already have them down to finish the job. Killer instinct is another positive characteristic you want to have because it prevents you from always having to finish well just to win.
We clearly were the better team. We brought the best players, and the better athleticism. There were times when we lowered ourselves to their level of play and Tenn responded with a come back.
Still… it’s November and we are young. This was a nice victory, especially on the road in an early tourney, where kids are often distracted by things like Disneyworld.
I hope we bring the focus and effort against Izzo.
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@icthawkfan316 Sooo what do you and HEM look for when recruiting kids for ks?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well I can’t speak for HEM, and obviously I am not doing any actual recruiting. I kind of get the sense this is not a real question but rather a barb directed at my assessment at Oubre, as if you’re saying “since you don’t think he belongs on the team, what are you looking for when you recruit?” Could be wrong, but if it is what you meant I’ll again say that I was impressed with Oubre coming in as well. I’ve admitted I saw the same things you saw and was stoked we got him. It doesn’t change my assessment that he is lagging behind and that I think it’s going to be hard for him to earn minutes.
But assuming it was a real question, what I like to see in the kids Self recruits depends on the needs of the team, but I’ll list a few general things. Personally I’m over the OAD craze. I’d like to see us focus on non-presumed OAD talent. For years I’ve also been hoping Self would get away from the “combo guard” situation and go out and recruit actual PGs. I do value athleticism, but not at the expense of basketball IQ, meaning I don’t like the Al Davis approach to things in which you just recruit athletes because they have physical gifts you can’t teach and your ego tells you that you can teach them the game. So I like it when we bring in guys like Svi, or Graham, who seem to just “get it”. I think he needs to start adding more height in the post.
There’s obviously tons of desirable traits, both tangible and intangible, in incoming recruits: coachability, good attitude, hard worker, good student, team player, outside shooting touch, toughness, nose for the ball, ball handling, passing, hops, speed, hates Missouri, etc.
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@icthawkfan316 Heavy on the 'hates Missouri"…lol. I think she was gigging you with her question…lol.
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@HighEliteMajor and @icthawkfan316
After the game ESPN had a programs called “The Experts” where they had a round table discussion moderated by Jay BIlas with Jim Boeheim, Mike Krzyzewski, Rick Pitino and Roy Williams. Among the different things they discussed was the potential separation of the top conferences from the NCAA; one of the points Pitino made was about the current NCAA Tournament format and he indicated that under the current format any team can upset a higher seed team and win the Tournament but if they would switch to a NBA-like series, talent would win every time, which is something I have mentioned many times.
The analogy can be expanded to the Oubre, Greene, Svi situation. There is no question that fundamentals-wise, Svi is head and shoulders above the other two, a result no doubt of having played in professional leagues in Europe, Greene is the better shooter but athleticism-wise, Oubre is the best of the bunch. Let’s keep in mind that unlike the NCAA Tournament, this is not a sprint and it is more like conference play, more of a marathon. Much like a series instead of single elimination games, in the end talent when paired with experience will prevail. Yes, Svi has the edge in fundamentals and Greene has one extra year in the system but in the long run, and once the game “slows down” for him, Oubre might end up being the better player.
Whitey mentioned that when he came to college the game seemed so much faster than what he was accustomed but once he got some experience, the game slowed down and he became a dominant rim protector, perhaps the best we have had since …well Chamberlain…and yet, when he went to the NBA he experienced the exact same thing all over again, where the game seemed a lot faster than what he was accustomed, but now that he as playing experience, the game has once again slowed down. I believe that in time,. the game will “slow down” for Oubre and we will see some great playing from him. I would not quite dismiss him based on what we have seen in handful of games and would wait longer to gauge his progress and potential.
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@JayHawkFanToo You could be right about Oubre. But you’re dealing with all hypothetical “if this, then that” scenarios. Yes Oubre “might” end up being the better player. You “believe” that in time… All I’m doing right now is objectively analyzing the situation. What actually is right now.
You mention Withey and what happened with him. You say “once he got some experience.” Here is my point: does Oubre have that kind of time? Withey had to wait years before playing time opened up and he had the opportunity to garner that experience. I’ve laid out the scenarios for Oubre to see more PT and increase his opportunities. Greene certainly could leave the door open for Oubre to overtake him, but will even that be enough? Today both saw 6 minutes (and neither impressed). Self could very well go with 4 main perimeter players as we saw today, leaving both out of the main rotation. If that’s the case, and Selden & Svi both return next year, how patient will Oubre be? How long would he be willing to wait?
(And yes, Self could find time for him this year even if he is the 5th or 6th perimeter player. But he definitely won’t if he’s the 6th, and it could be sporadic if he’s the 5th)
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@icthawkfan316 no barbs, just wondered. I usually agree w/you! Self said he looks for 3 things in recruits, athleticism, shooting and I forgot the 3 rd one
! Hasn’t Self said that when Oubre gets what’s going on he will be awesome? I know he said he wasn’t worried about him figuring it out. Right now Greene (and I hate it) is his own worst enemy! The other night Svi hardly played. Beats me who will show up, but it’s nice to have choices.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t know all the things that he’s said, but during the game today something that kind of gave me pause was Dick Vitale and the other announcer saying that Self said he thought he’d be a great college player, but that his best basketball wouldn’t come at the college level. As if to say that his game is more suited for the NBA than it is for college.
One of my concerns with Oubre is that his best offensive attribute is supposed to be his slashing ability. The ability to drive the ball to the wing. I’ve always thought that was a hugely de-emphasized talent to have in a Self offense. There have been a lot of guys, great athletes, come through the program that were said to have that ability, but who can we really count as huge successes that relied primarily on that skill? Tyshawn & Sherron, and that’s about it really. Wiggins to a lesser extent. And it’s easier to do that from the PG position than from the wing. Rush was pretty good at it, but he also had a great outside shot. In Self’s offense, you usually need to be either a big or a sharpshooter to be great.
I’m rooting for the guy. It’s not as if I want him to fail and transfer. I’ve just been speculating on his opportunities.
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@icthawkfan316 I didn’t hear that. Guess we will see. I’m really wishing him to live up to his hype. Can’t see him in the nba at all at this point!
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@icthawkfan316 Svi has changed the entire equation for several players. Coach has no reason to play Svi other than ability, and he gets more minutes than Perry Ellis against MSU. That says it all. It is like having an instant veteran inserted straight into the line up. Our team shot terribly, but I never felt like we were going to lose after we took the lead in the 2nd half. Svi adds years to our team experience-wise, imo.
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I agree. The kid Svi plays more like a veteran than most of our guys. He sees the game better than everyone on our team. Hard to leave a guy like that on the bench. You know, eventually, his shot is going to come, and when it does, this team will be hard to beat. Svi is the only perimeter player we have that can create his shot at will.
Oubre should get some minutes when he plays up to D1 (and Self ball) speed. Let’s not forget, Kelly is a 3. He gives us some muscle, which we can really use at the 3, especially with this short team.
Who is our other 3? Wayne? Maybe playing the 3 has created issues for Wayne’s game. Wayne is a two… though… many of us felt he could play anything from a 1 to 4, but maybe that isn’t really true.
Svi is definitely not a 3. He just doesn’t have the strength. Yet.
Brannen also doesn’t have the strength, or the toughness, to play well at the 3. He’s a 2.
When we get in B12 play, we will need strength at the 3. League play is all about possessions… and we’ll need a decent rebounder at the 3, as well as someone who can d against other strong 3s.
The guy who seems most lost today is Wayne… and I think that has to do with the fact that he is being asked to do different things this year… like play at different positions. I think it has been too much to ask him to play everything from 1 to 4. Now he seems lost. Problem is… we now have two tall 2s that can nail the 3.
I always felt Wayne would like to play some 3… slashing muscle ball. Maybe I’m wrong.
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@drgnslayr Wayne’s puzzling!
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@drgnslayr said:
The guy who seems most lost today is Wayne… and I think that has to do with the fact that he is being asked to do different things this year… like play at different positions.
Wayne’s lost? Not the Wayne I’ve seen. That same Wayne that missed 10 shots today made 5/6 FTs, grabbed 5 boards, and added 2 assists, a steal, and a block. After getting off to a shaky start, he held Denzel Valentine to just 2 pts in the second half. Wayne is always going to be a volume scorer, but he contributes in all areas of the game (a poor man’s Marcus Smart) and has shown consistent and total improvement in all aspects of his play (including his shooting form, despite the misses). Even with the bad performance against UK and weak shooting today, he’s managed to improve all of his stats except FG%.
The only question I have about Wayne is “is this a shooting slump, or has Wayne’s ability to finish gone the way of Elijah Johnson?” Obviously, my hope is that once he sees the ball fall through a few time, the plug will become uncorked and he’ll finish strong (a la Releford at the beginning of the 2013 season), but the fact that he’s missed 3 dunks this year (one in the exhibition) because he couldn’t get the ball over the rim is disconcerting. Hopefully, with more rehab, he can get his strength back. Time will tell.
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Wayne has been taking some ill-advised shots. He definitely forced up some shots that didn’t look natural and flowing at all. That was my point. And when he does that he looks more like a freshman than a sophomore.
It’s pretty tough to go 0 for 10.
I don’t consider it a slump. He’s never going to make a high percentage on some of the shots he took (forcing it). He’s just off track right now.
And his feeble stuff attempt at the end was the possession loss when MSU made it a one possession game. That wasn’t the Wayne we know. Taking up a weak, one-handed stuff attempt. He should have gone up strong, with both hands on the ball, and smashed it down. The guy can jump out of the gym. Maybe his esteem is down.
