Tennessee Post Game=PG Play
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@JayHawkFanToo I agree, I watched Oubre play and he was a stud!! I think Self will rotate them and give the hot hand more time! That will change from game to game. No platoon! Never want to hear that again!
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Sorry???
Coach Self has been doing a lighter version of it already; maybe we can come up with name of our own…any ideas?
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@JayHawkFanToo he’s NOT subbing 5 for 5.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Also, as far as not having enough time. I just don’t buy it. If UK can find time for 10 McD All-Americans, I am sure Coach self can find time for his less heralded players.
I am sure that it is possible to play that many players (we are obviously seeing it at Kentucky), but what evidence have we seen from Self that he will change? This isn’t the first team we’ve thought was deep, yet come conference play, it’s 8 players. Maybe 9. You might not buy it, but you’re not the buyer. You have to sell it to Self. And for 10 plus years in Lawrence, he hasn’t looked to be in the market for that. As has been pointed out, we saw it in the Tennessee game. Come crunch time, his rotation shrinks. So yeah, they’ll be playing Lafayette in 3 weeks and in a blowout he’ll distribute the minutes out a little more, but for the majority of the season…don’t bet on it.
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@JayHawkFanToo Really, though, the all star games don’t mean much when translating to a coach Self coached team. But I saw the same thing you did. What we saw was not (Self) team basketball. What Oubre showed in those all star games may translate better to a non system coach, or to a coach that is not so demanding or precise in his requirements. I think that explains a bit why many other top 15 or so guys are starting every game, and playing big minutes. I think part of the answer too is that we have other options and thus he doesn’t get on the job training.
I will be surprised if Oubre starts this season based on merit vs. another national TV game against a team we’re competing with for recruits. This for one main reason – Svi.
I just struggle to see how he overtakes Svi. Is there anything that Oubre, even if you look at his potential, does better than Svi? All I can identify is perhaps slashing to the hoop. The game changer is that Svi is much, much better defensively than we could ever have imagined. He is a tremendous passer and ball mover. Svi won’t stagnate, either. Meaning, Oubre may start grasping more, but Svi will too. If Svi starts hitting the three, he will be the best all around player on this team.
Also, don’t forget that Svi is projected to go #4 in the 2016 NBA draft. He has as much or more “potential” than Oubre, who was projected top 10. (for whatever it’s worth, Oubre, has completely dropped out of the draft projection at nbadraft.net – Cliff is down to #15 by the way).
I think we just assume Oubre is going to magically get better, and adapt, and learn, and assimilate. Compare to the exact same discussion many of us had about Josh Selby. It is not a given. And I think the risk of non-assimilation is greater on a coach Self coached team.
Actually, I think Oubre’s chances to start next season hinge totally on two things – whether Selden and Svi return. If they both come back, I think both will start next season at the 2/3.
Think of it this way. If you could draft a team for next season from current KU players, who would be your first choice right now?
I’d pick Svi.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Lots of guys are studs in high school. Just like lots of guys are studs at the collegiate level. Yet that doesn’t always translate to the next level. Maybe Oubre comes around. It’s possible. But he’s behind the rest of the perimeter players right now, so it will be an uphill battle for him. The one thing he has working for him are his lofty high school ranking & credentials. As has been discussed, Self seemed to pander to that once and it’s well within the realm of possibility that it happens again.
The issue really isn’t whether Oubre can play or not. The issue is opportunity. Minutes. Available playing time. However you want to phrase it. HEM has discussed this at length on many occasions. We’ve seen it season after season. Someone is on the outside looking in at available playing time, and often that leads to a transfer. Look at CF. Last year Self did just enough with both him & Greene to keep them around. Not rotation level minutes, but (depending on how you want to look at it) he either carved out a limited role for them or threw them scraps of minutes. That led to both players returning this year. But after awhile CF saw the writing on the wall and knew it would be doubtful he cracked the regular rotation this season, and knew he’d be in a dogfight for playing time for the remainder of his time at KU, so he elected to leave.
That situation is what I am predicting for Oubre. Just an objective assessment of the situation. There’s no immediate playing time guaranteed to open up at the 2 or the 3, and he’s behind 3 players for minutes right now (4 if you include Graham playing alongside Mason for stretches). There’s also no guarantee Self doesn’t recruit over him with the next OAD flavor of the month. Circumstances could change, sure. The scenarios are as follows:
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He overtakes someone for playing time in the midst of the current season. The most likely candidate is Greene, due to his sub-par defense. Svi would be the next candidate, assuming he never finds his shooting touch and Oubre can make some gains on him in other areas.
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Selden turns pro after this season. As I’ve said, I find this unlikely at this point, as he would have to see a moderate uptick in his scoring.
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Svi heads home after one season.
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Injury.
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He doesn’t overtake anyone for minutes this season, yet he feels he improves enough between his freshman & sophomore campaign that he can unseat someone next year.
Over the summer I had predicted Oubre would step right in for Wiggins and would be the starter, so it’s not like I haven’t been high on him as you and @JayHawkFanToo still are. But so far, even including the Kentucky game (which for all the talk about him being the best player in that game, Self saw fit to play him a whopping 13 minutes), he looks to be lagging behind, which if he stays there puts him on the transfer watch.
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@icthawkfan316 I agree with you completely. Every year (except 2011-12) we’re deep. We’re going to expand the rotation. 2009-10 (TRob, EJ), then 2010-11 (Releford, EJ), 2012-13 (White and Adams), and last season. It never happens.
I’d say 2010-11 is the best comparison. We had 10 guys average over 10 mpg during the season. But even that was misleading. Many of Releford’s minutes were token minutes. That left nine. Mario Little didn’t really play many meaningful minutes. EJ was shut out of many, many important situations. Four of those guys (Little, Releford, EJ, and Selby) got ditched in many key games and situations.
The idea on a rotation is that they are regular and consistent contributors. Self has never done that.
Look at the boxscore for the Big 12 title game. EJ had played admirably for TT during his suspension, then got just a handful of minutes. Selby had averaged bigger minutes, then hardly anything. Look at the box score for our first round NCAA game vs. the vaunted Boston Terriers. 7 guys in double figures on a team where 10 guys averaged double figures.
The point is that even with an incredibly deep team, and even with the #1 recruit on the bench, Self will revert to prior form. He’ll choose his most trusted guys, and go with them when it counts.
Heck, look at it right now. He’s already done that this season in the second half of games.
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@HighEliteMajor Your points on Svi are valid. But, I could see Oubre take some of Greene’s minutes…or a combination of Greene and other players.
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@icthawkfan316 did you see Oubre play this past summer? He was playing against other standout players. I’m not talking about hs. Guess we will wait and see.
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@Hawk8086 Svi needs to start hitting. I thought he was doing better last game, but didn’t play much. I think we use the 10.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Agreed, Svi needs to hit his 3s.
Also, remember, we may “use” 10 guys. Self “used” 10 in 2009-10 for over 10 mpg. But we clearly didn’t have a 10 man rotation. We didn’t have a 9 man rotation. He’d give Releford some minutes in the first half, then a nibble in the second. He added minutes in mop up to get to 10. Much the same way with Little. He’d basically get a some here and there, and when fouls were an issue to get to 13 per game. EJ would flat sit for long stretches. No “rotation” there.
Do you see that differently; or when you say “use”, do you mean just “use” in terms of "play, and not a rotation of 10?
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@HighEliteMajor I think we rotate 10, providing Oubre improves like I think he will. Cliff will have trouble w/fouls, Greene could get in the doghouse, injuries, cold shooting. Mostly match ups. With 3 pt shooting, some days you are off, next guy might be hot. Selden has been looking better, but before these last few games I could see him sitting more. Jmo
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah I saw him at the Nike Hoop Summit. He guarded Emmanuel Mudiay and looked very good doing it. But how much stock do we put in all-star games? Games with thrown together talent meant to showcase those individual talents. The purpose of those games is not to win. How one fits onto a team, within a system, and against a majority of players who have adapted to the college game is very different than how someone looks against other high school stars all looking to get theirs. I’m with HEM…how much do those summer games really mean when trying to translate his performance to a Self coached team?
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@icthawkfan316 I guess I do. I saw superb athleticism, desire to keep his man from scoring, and a team player.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
I saw superb athleticism, desire to keep his man from scoring, and a team player.
And if all those were translating from summer league all-star games to Self’s system, don’t you think he’d be playing more? Those are all things Self values, especially the defense.
Again, that’s what we’re talking about: not what we saw prior to his arrival at KU, but what we’ve seen on the court now. I don’t disagree with what you saw. I saw it too. But I haven’t seen those things translate to this level. And my point is when it does translate, will it be too late to overtake Svi or Greene for minutes? Because they are going to continue to improve as well, likely at a higher rate because they are seeing more game action right now. He’s not going to steal them from Selden, barring a complete breakdown of Self-fundamentals on Wayne’s part.
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@icthawkfan316 just a difference of opinion.
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“Don’t you think the killer instinct thing was at least partially on display by the nice finish?”
Finishing well is probably the #1 characteristic you want to see in a team.
But for me… “killer instinct” is the instinct of pouncing on your prey when you already have them down to finish the job. Killer instinct is another positive characteristic you want to have because it prevents you from always having to finish well just to win.
We clearly were the better team. We brought the best players, and the better athleticism. There were times when we lowered ourselves to their level of play and Tenn responded with a come back.
Still… it’s November and we are young. This was a nice victory, especially on the road in an early tourney, where kids are often distracted by things like Disneyworld.
I hope we bring the focus and effort against Izzo.
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@icthawkfan316 Sooo what do you and HEM look for when recruiting kids for ks?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well I can’t speak for HEM, and obviously I am not doing any actual recruiting. I kind of get the sense this is not a real question but rather a barb directed at my assessment at Oubre, as if you’re saying “since you don’t think he belongs on the team, what are you looking for when you recruit?” Could be wrong, but if it is what you meant I’ll again say that I was impressed with Oubre coming in as well. I’ve admitted I saw the same things you saw and was stoked we got him. It doesn’t change my assessment that he is lagging behind and that I think it’s going to be hard for him to earn minutes.
But assuming it was a real question, what I like to see in the kids Self recruits depends on the needs of the team, but I’ll list a few general things. Personally I’m over the OAD craze. I’d like to see us focus on non-presumed OAD talent. For years I’ve also been hoping Self would get away from the “combo guard” situation and go out and recruit actual PGs. I do value athleticism, but not at the expense of basketball IQ, meaning I don’t like the Al Davis approach to things in which you just recruit athletes because they have physical gifts you can’t teach and your ego tells you that you can teach them the game. So I like it when we bring in guys like Svi, or Graham, who seem to just “get it”. I think he needs to start adding more height in the post.
There’s obviously tons of desirable traits, both tangible and intangible, in incoming recruits: coachability, good attitude, hard worker, good student, team player, outside shooting touch, toughness, nose for the ball, ball handling, passing, hops, speed, hates Missouri, etc.
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@icthawkfan316 Heavy on the 'hates Missouri"…lol. I think she was gigging you with her question…lol.
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@HighEliteMajor and @icthawkfan316
After the game ESPN had a programs called “The Experts” where they had a round table discussion moderated by Jay BIlas with Jim Boeheim, Mike Krzyzewski, Rick Pitino and Roy Williams. Among the different things they discussed was the potential separation of the top conferences from the NCAA; one of the points Pitino made was about the current NCAA Tournament format and he indicated that under the current format any team can upset a higher seed team and win the Tournament but if they would switch to a NBA-like series, talent would win every time, which is something I have mentioned many times.
The analogy can be expanded to the Oubre, Greene, Svi situation. There is no question that fundamentals-wise, Svi is head and shoulders above the other two, a result no doubt of having played in professional leagues in Europe, Greene is the better shooter but athleticism-wise, Oubre is the best of the bunch. Let’s keep in mind that unlike the NCAA Tournament, this is not a sprint and it is more like conference play, more of a marathon. Much like a series instead of single elimination games, in the end talent when paired with experience will prevail. Yes, Svi has the edge in fundamentals and Greene has one extra year in the system but in the long run, and once the game “slows down” for him, Oubre might end up being the better player.
Whitey mentioned that when he came to college the game seemed so much faster than what he was accustomed but once he got some experience, the game slowed down and he became a dominant rim protector, perhaps the best we have had since …well Chamberlain…and yet, when he went to the NBA he experienced the exact same thing all over again, where the game seemed a lot faster than what he was accustomed, but now that he as playing experience, the game has once again slowed down. I believe that in time,. the game will “slow down” for Oubre and we will see some great playing from him. I would not quite dismiss him based on what we have seen in handful of games and would wait longer to gauge his progress and potential.
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@JayHawkFanToo You could be right about Oubre. But you’re dealing with all hypothetical “if this, then that” scenarios. Yes Oubre “might” end up being the better player. You “believe” that in time… All I’m doing right now is objectively analyzing the situation. What actually is right now.
You mention Withey and what happened with him. You say “once he got some experience.” Here is my point: does Oubre have that kind of time? Withey had to wait years before playing time opened up and he had the opportunity to garner that experience. I’ve laid out the scenarios for Oubre to see more PT and increase his opportunities. Greene certainly could leave the door open for Oubre to overtake him, but will even that be enough? Today both saw 6 minutes (and neither impressed). Self could very well go with 4 main perimeter players as we saw today, leaving both out of the main rotation. If that’s the case, and Selden & Svi both return next year, how patient will Oubre be? How long would he be willing to wait?
(And yes, Self could find time for him this year even if he is the 5th or 6th perimeter player. But he definitely won’t if he’s the 6th, and it could be sporadic if he’s the 5th)
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@icthawkfan316 no barbs, just wondered. I usually agree w/you! Self said he looks for 3 things in recruits, athleticism, shooting and I forgot the 3 rd one
! Hasn’t Self said that when Oubre gets what’s going on he will be awesome? I know he said he wasn’t worried about him figuring it out. Right now Greene (and I hate it) is his own worst enemy! The other night Svi hardly played. Beats me who will show up, but it’s nice to have choices.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t know all the things that he’s said, but during the game today something that kind of gave me pause was Dick Vitale and the other announcer saying that Self said he thought he’d be a great college player, but that his best basketball wouldn’t come at the college level. As if to say that his game is more suited for the NBA than it is for college.
One of my concerns with Oubre is that his best offensive attribute is supposed to be his slashing ability. The ability to drive the ball to the wing. I’ve always thought that was a hugely de-emphasized talent to have in a Self offense. There have been a lot of guys, great athletes, come through the program that were said to have that ability, but who can we really count as huge successes that relied primarily on that skill? Tyshawn & Sherron, and that’s about it really. Wiggins to a lesser extent. And it’s easier to do that from the PG position than from the wing. Rush was pretty good at it, but he also had a great outside shot. In Self’s offense, you usually need to be either a big or a sharpshooter to be great.
I’m rooting for the guy. It’s not as if I want him to fail and transfer. I’ve just been speculating on his opportunities.
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@icthawkfan316 I didn’t hear that. Guess we will see. I’m really wishing him to live up to his hype. Can’t see him in the nba at all at this point!
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@icthawkfan316 Svi has changed the entire equation for several players. Coach has no reason to play Svi other than ability, and he gets more minutes than Perry Ellis against MSU. That says it all. It is like having an instant veteran inserted straight into the line up. Our team shot terribly, but I never felt like we were going to lose after we took the lead in the 2nd half. Svi adds years to our team experience-wise, imo.
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I agree. The kid Svi plays more like a veteran than most of our guys. He sees the game better than everyone on our team. Hard to leave a guy like that on the bench. You know, eventually, his shot is going to come, and when it does, this team will be hard to beat. Svi is the only perimeter player we have that can create his shot at will.
Oubre should get some minutes when he plays up to D1 (and Self ball) speed. Let’s not forget, Kelly is a 3. He gives us some muscle, which we can really use at the 3, especially with this short team.
Who is our other 3? Wayne? Maybe playing the 3 has created issues for Wayne’s game. Wayne is a two… though… many of us felt he could play anything from a 1 to 4, but maybe that isn’t really true.
Svi is definitely not a 3. He just doesn’t have the strength. Yet.
Brannen also doesn’t have the strength, or the toughness, to play well at the 3. He’s a 2.
When we get in B12 play, we will need strength at the 3. League play is all about possessions… and we’ll need a decent rebounder at the 3, as well as someone who can d against other strong 3s.
The guy who seems most lost today is Wayne… and I think that has to do with the fact that he is being asked to do different things this year… like play at different positions. I think it has been too much to ask him to play everything from 1 to 4. Now he seems lost. Problem is… we now have two tall 2s that can nail the 3.
I always felt Wayne would like to play some 3… slashing muscle ball. Maybe I’m wrong.
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@drgnslayr Wayne’s puzzling!
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@drgnslayr said:
The guy who seems most lost today is Wayne… and I think that has to do with the fact that he is being asked to do different things this year… like play at different positions.
Wayne’s lost? Not the Wayne I’ve seen. That same Wayne that missed 10 shots today made 5/6 FTs, grabbed 5 boards, and added 2 assists, a steal, and a block. After getting off to a shaky start, he held Denzel Valentine to just 2 pts in the second half. Wayne is always going to be a volume scorer, but he contributes in all areas of the game (a poor man’s Marcus Smart) and has shown consistent and total improvement in all aspects of his play (including his shooting form, despite the misses). Even with the bad performance against UK and weak shooting today, he’s managed to improve all of his stats except FG%.
The only question I have about Wayne is “is this a shooting slump, or has Wayne’s ability to finish gone the way of Elijah Johnson?” Obviously, my hope is that once he sees the ball fall through a few time, the plug will become uncorked and he’ll finish strong (a la Releford at the beginning of the 2013 season), but the fact that he’s missed 3 dunks this year (one in the exhibition) because he couldn’t get the ball over the rim is disconcerting. Hopefully, with more rehab, he can get his strength back. Time will tell.
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Wayne has been taking some ill-advised shots. He definitely forced up some shots that didn’t look natural and flowing at all. That was my point. And when he does that he looks more like a freshman than a sophomore.
It’s pretty tough to go 0 for 10.
I don’t consider it a slump. He’s never going to make a high percentage on some of the shots he took (forcing it). He’s just off track right now.
And his feeble stuff attempt at the end was the possession loss when MSU made it a one possession game. That wasn’t the Wayne we know. Taking up a weak, one-handed stuff attempt. He should have gone up strong, with both hands on the ball, and smashed it down. The guy can jump out of the gym. Maybe his esteem is down.
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Wayne vs. MSU: 0 for 10 shooting, 2 assists. For a player whom Bill Self calls The Guy to Lead This Team, 0 for 10, 2 assists??? After miss #8, my wife moved her chair to the other side of the room to shy away from my grousing. Granted, he did a great job on Valentine and played a steady hand, other than the selfish offense. But, hey, this wasn’t exhibition play vs. Podunk State. Wayne was hogging some shots vs. teammates with hotter hands in a tournament championship contest against an opponent and coach with a history of success vs. Bill Self and Jayhawk Hoops. Leadership?
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I am not certain that Wayne had all that many selfish shots. Certainly less than the three three point attempts by Perry.
Wayne is still playing some pretty tight D and has been slashing to the basket in an attempt to get back on track. I would prefer that some of his shots actually go in, but right now, I am not alarmed. If this persists, then I will get nervous, because I think we really need him.
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I agree, most of the shots Wayne took were good looks and nothing like the “high degree of difficulty” shots MSU was taking and making. In any case, most coaches will tell you that the only way for a player to get off a slump is to continue shooting.
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@REHawk I didn’t see it that way. I wonder if the 3 games in 4 days took a toll on his knee, and he needs to rest it. Don’t like the 0 for 10, but his defensive work in the 2nd half more than made up for the rough shooting night. I know what kind of a player Wayne can be - I saw what he can do in the Red vs Blue game with the outside shot. If he continues to struggle, he’ll quit shooting, so even if the numbers stink at the moment, I want him to still shoot. I understand the frustration, though.
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I’m going to continue to differ with you 3 guys. After the Kentucky debacle, this tournament was a huge televised opportunity for Jayhawk Basketball to shed some ugly. Even with the trophy, we barely budged in the AP and Coaches’ Polls. Sunday’s championship contest pretty much came down to the wire with Jamari’s freethrows playing a big part in saving the closing seconds. This was NOT the occasion for Wayne to choose to get back on track offensively and shed his shooting slump. 7 misses, maybe; but to continue firing blanks beyond that certainly put his team in jeopardy. 2 more assists and 3 fewer shot attempts would not have stirred my ire. At the moment, Bill Self is depending on the experience of Wayne, Perry and Frank especially to lead this squad toward fundamentally sound winning ways. Yesterday, they were probably the only 3 team members who might have gotten away with such pitiful offensive production w/o being yanked. Wayne’s defense was essential to holding down Valentine, and he did a marvelous job; his ball control was admirable. I can understand Self’s reasoning (and patience) in not benching him. But yeah, if it continues in the Florida, Georgetown or Utah games, I’d recommend sitting him on the pine for enough time to capture his attention.
