Tennessee Post Game=PG Play
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@globaljaybird I know we exchanged observations on Self’s lack of the quick hook before the game, and Self stayed true to form. This is really a terrific, and refreshing, development. Greene threw up a bad NBA range three right as he got in the game. Self didn’t move. It’s just a different, more positive dynamic. I really hope it keeps up.
A few other observations:
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Post Play: Cliff is ready to start. Self may stick with Lucas at least for tomorrow. Cliff’s skills, hopefully getting 25 mpg, will make a positive impact. We all so how poorly Jamari played. It’s been that way all season – bobbles, bad passes, just out of sync. Good thing is that Lucas has filled the void. Lucas’ rebounds per minute played have to be pretty darn good. Ellis had a nice offensive effort. Alexander’s presence more often will only help.
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Mason: He obviously played better. @icthawkfan316 noted the fastbreak where he had two trailers to leave it for – but the line was sweet. 50% three point shooting on the season so far, too.
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Greene: Self went with Greene in crunch time. Great sign for Greene. Played confidently. One time on D where he got burned and got a foul. But having that type of shooter in the line up helps open the floor. Greene’s defender really extended to him most of the time.
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Svi: When Self references Oubre being young, or learning, or all of that – the real young guy is Svi. But he continues to play well. We will just continue to see him get more confident and do more offensively, like the drive to the hoop. There was a great sequence at the 17:50 mark where his terrific defense on the wing led directly to a turnover. Watching him play defense is really enjoyable. Regardless, the threes need to start falling. I think it’s just a matter of time.
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Three Point Shooting: Mason looks solid. Graham fine. Greene outstanding. Ellis an added dimension. And if Svi gets it going, look out. Selden started the season 1-8, but now has had two straight good shooting games from three. Self wants an identity. I like this.
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Oubre: Back when EJ and Releford were underclassmen, I was irritated with Self’s refusal to play those two through their mistakes. My rationale was that their upside was better than the guys Self was playing – that is, by March, the product would be better with EJ and Releford, and thus our chances at a national title would be improved; if Self would just let them learn, make mistakes, and get critical in-game experience. Is there any similarity here? I guess that I don’t think so. How much more talented is Oubre than Greene and Svi? I don’t see it. Personally, I think Svi’s flat more talented; and Greene’s our three point sniper. Not sure Oubre can match that critical skill. Self says that our best guys aren’t playing – I don’t like that comment. It is a touch demeaning to the guys on the court for my taste. Who is he referring to? Cliff vs. Traylor? Ok, I get it. But with Oubre vs. Svi and Greene, I wonder if it’s just a convenient fiction. Self’s in a tough spot. If we had two or three commits in the bag, it wouldn’t matter. It appears Selby-esque.
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Atlantis: I hope we never play there again. Just difficult to watch on TV. Horrible last season. Watching OU-Wisconsin now. Blue back lighting during game play, weird low ceiling, and weird spotlights during breaks. Yuck.
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This season vs. last season: We have talked about this team possibly being better. How do we lose a starting point guard and the first and third picks in the draft, and be better? Time will tell, of course, but we look much better. More active, smoother on offense, better defensively. We nit-pik Mason – he deserved it after UK. But goodness, his ball handling is the best I’ve seen in years and he works his ass off on defense. Graham and Mason are both better than Tharpe in literally all aspects (giving Tharpe credit for his shooting). And no pouting from either of them. This time in both of the last two seasons, Tharpe was questioning his role, Self had to bench him, and we had to hear about his whining. That’s gone, thankfully, But it’s the defense that stands out to me by Mason and Graham on the court. Also, notice how the pressure is a non factor? Mason controls it. And we are better without Wiggins, and everything Wiggins brought. Good defender, but soft as a marshmallow. Took too many bad shots. Negatively affected chemistry solely because of his unearned superstar status. Here’s a question – would you add Wiggins from last season to this team, right now? No way. Not a chance. Now, I’d take Embiid of course. But I wouldn’t mess this up with Wiggins.
@drgnslayr - Don’t you think the killer instinct thing was at least partially on display by the nice finish? I saw that as extremely positive. Last season, it would have been a one possession game inside the last minute. On Svi, is there a better guy at getting the ball into the high or low post than Svi, and doing it crisply? He seems to pop it in really well. Energy and momentum from defense – you are exactly right. Nice to see.
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I thought the guys showed some great grit from that 6 minute mark to pull out the win. Signs of a team that is on a mission finally. There definitely was some head scratching moments that just drive us fans nuts including blowing multiple double digit leads in a matter of minutes. But I was really impressed with the fight today and even when it seemed Tenn. has us on the ropes we found ways with clutch shots and stops.
I think we have seen some seperation in the rotation. Ellis, Mason, Svi, and Selden are clearly ahead. I think its wise to Keep Lucas with his size in there because he buys Cliff 4-5 minutes of non-fouls. Cliff is going to start at some point, having his lob ability and rebounding are so important.
Greene has come to play, he’s earned his time. Traylor and Oubre clearly need some help getting things together. Boy are they turnovers waiting to happen in there. I’m holding out on Graham, he was great yesterday and ehh today.
Some individual thoughts…
Hats off to Mason, he has played very well in this tourney. I thought today he really looked to get others involved and those monster lobs really helped keep us on top. Even some of his drives I expected him to shoot, but he has some great decision making. Now he did have a few bonehead plays including that 6 point swing in the first half but our PG isn’t going to be great all the time and he’s still learning this position. I thought his d was good until Richardson decided to be aggressive. His 3 point shot is so much improved and I thought the kid was as important to the win today as any.
Ellis has showed his swag so far these past 3 games. Love his quickness and willingness to take shots. I’m glad he gets he needs to score and be that consistent scoring threat. This is the Perry we need no matter the competition. I do think he’s shown more on defense and he looked like Self has got on him about rebounds 13 today.
Selden has showed he can’t be replaced in the lineup. His passing, defense and occasional offense are not replaceable in the lineup. Hopefully his offense continues to come to him because it would be great if he was averaging 12-13 pts a game. When he came out, our game suffered a lot.
Cliff has started to show us what we all expected from him. Now he’s basically a Jeff Whithey without the height right now. He needs his offense to be set up for him but he has delivered and right now is the perfect offensive option off the bench. It limits his foul tendency and buys him more minutes when we really need it. I say keep him there for a while until he makes it impossible not to start him. His alley-oops are the perfect way for him to get going. What a beast he is.
I’m believing more in Greene by the game. His ability to hit the 3 is well noted. He rebounds now and his passing is much better. Keep it up.
Svi finally showed a new dimension on offense with that drive and finish. Still misses too many open 3’s. He could make us even more lethal hitting more. Defense is great and moving the ball around. He has earned his spot so far just wish his offense would click more.
What can you say about Oubre and Traylor. This week hasn’t been kind to them at all. It seemed whenever they entered the game negative plays happened. We know both can help this team but right now they haven’t helped in this tourney. Such good kids, hopefully they can put it behind them.
Looking forward to sunday against most likely Izzo. It would be nice to get one against him as he has dominated us lately.
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@HighEliteMajor I like the numbered points, and have a few responses for many:
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Re: Cliff starting, I don’t know that he needs to start, but definitely an uptick in minutes. I kind of like the Lucas/Perry pairing at the start of games. Cliff off the bench sort of reminds me of Arthur coming off the bench his freshman year.
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I think we have just grown so accustomed to criticizing our PG play, we naturally have been nit-picking Mason. Not that his shoot first mentality and occasional questionable decisions haven’t been worth mentioning, but as you reference later, I think the improved PG play has been the number 1 reason we can be better offensively.
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I’m glad to see him getting crunch-time minutes. Not too long ago we were speculating/fearing that his PT could possibly slip and cause him to transfer. But he’s the type of player Self needs to build around: the talented, skilled 3-4 year guys. Hopefully his D comes around to a serviceable level.
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Just waiting on Svi!
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The difference between Oubre’s situation and that of EJ & Releford is the guys playing in front of them. Svi & Greene both have NBA level talent/ceilings. No one thought that about B-Star & Reed. There’s not much upside in letting Oubre play through the mistakes right now. Regarding Oubre’s game specifically, I thought his defense was going to be what set him apart. I thought maybe it would be just a notch below Wiggins’ level last season. So far he looks about as poor as Greene did a season ago. Kind of a big let-down in my opinion. It’s early so I don’t think he needs to be banished to the end of the bench just yet, but if he can’t bring something to the table soon I think he becomes the next player on the transfer watch list. Think about it - Selden doesn’t look ready to turn pro after this season (just not enough scoring yet), assuming Svi doesn’t either get homesick or chase the $$$ back overseas he’ll be back. As long as Greene continues to get minutes he isn’t going anywhere. Where does that leave Oubre next season? Would he consider a redshirt, or just transfer outright? Again, I know it’s early, but we’re always monitoring the roster situation and this looks like where it’s headed.
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I’ve been thinking that too for the last 2 days. Idk who said it last year (could have been me for all I know) but it’s like a basketball game broke out during an episode of “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?”
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I wouldn’t add Wiggins to this team, mainly because Wiggins would be gone after the season and the guys I mentioned at the 2 & 3 (Selden, Svi, Greene) are all good and most likely back next year as well, but I don’t share your criticisms of him from a year ago. “Soft as a marshmellow?” I just don’t remember him like that. “Too many bad shots?” Maybe, but I think that was more a product of our offense and with other guys not stepping up. Selden was pretty passive last year. Tharpe was abysmal. That was our perimeter offense - Tharpe, Selden, & Wiggins. He had to shoot, but I never got the sense that it was a “I’m gonna get mine” gunner mentality. Like I said, I wouldn’t add Wiggins to this team just because of the long-term potential we have with some of this core, but it would have been nice to see how Wiggins performed a year ago with a real PG and competent players surrounding him on the perimeter.
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@icthawkfan316 & @HighEliteMajor
You just helped me understand what I thought I saw the last two games, the makings of a TEAM! The three outside guys today whipped the ball around quickly and decisively w/out the ball sticking. They hit the high post nicely (although not as much as hcbs wanted.) and reversed the court 2-4 times till they found an open shot.
I think these boys are getting coached up and listening…well most of them! I think Svi understands the offense already just needs to hit some shots. I loved his pump fake and drive/finish at start of 2nd half.
Someone mentioned it on Jesse’s in game blog that our zone offense looked better today than at ANY point last year.
Ok…gotta go see the Christmas tree lighting in Beaver Creek!
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Interesting game of spurts or maybe I should say lapses.
The good things:
Mason is crazy good dribbling the ball and bringing it up; his 3 point shot is coming along; he also has a little Rajon Rondo in him where he know how to position himself for rebounds…
Graham progressing nicely.
Ellis is actively looking for the 3 often going to the corner to take the shot but not yet being noticed by the team that he wants to shoot the 3. Does anyone have better moves than Ellis around the basket? He sure has some great spin moves and he is starting to become more aggressive.
Alexander is playing well and finally getting into the groove. Selden is playing steady and brought up the ball up several times and his assists are a nice bonus.
Svi court awareness and poise is something to behold. He never gets flustered and his passing is crisp, One of these days his shots will start to fall. Is there a younger player in Division I?
Green shooting.
Team 3-point shooting stil above .400, a nice development.
Ball movement. Players are finally doing what Coach Self wanted all along, move the ball and not juts hold it
Poise. The team got punched hard a couple of time by Tennessee runs a and responded every time. Looks like the teams is now coming together.
The bad:
Turnovers.
Greene still cannot move his feet sideways and gets burned and he fails to provide help from the weak side; overall his defense is lagging his offense and it is the one thing that is holding him back.
Turnovers.
Mason still taking ill advised shots but slowly improving in this area; maybe Coach had him watch RussRob tapes.
Turnovers.
Oubre still trying to get a handle of the system and lagging behind the other players with comparable experience; too much raw talent to ride the pine for too long.
Turnovers.
Jamari had a well below average game; maybe he need to abandon the Oubre hair style and go back to the original.
Did I say Turnovers? 16 turnover against Tennessee is way too much; if TOs would have been kept in single digits, Tennessee never gets the runs and this game is a blowout. TOs are momentum killers.
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Sigh… I still haven’t gotten over that major spanking UK just gave us. It’s not that we lost, I know that losing is part of the game, and that UK is just silly good this year. It’s just all their new McD kids made our new McD kids look they should have stayed in high school for another year.
It took awhile, but I got over the Stanford loss over the summer, and my fears that we still didn’t have a superior PG and/or a replacement 7footer and/or 3pt deadeye. But I read all the glowing reports on these boards and slowly got psyched again at the start of the season… such a plethora of new talent coming in.
But outside of Alexander, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed so far. Pretty hopeful for Svi -he seems to have the goods and just needs the shots to start falling in. Ellis is solid and gets his points, but seems to fold a bit when the going gets tough. A number of others show me flashes while some others make me wonder how they are still getting playing time.
Somebody posted the question about just how many quality wins do we have in the last few years outside of our conference besides Duke last year. Not many I’m afraid. And those early exits from the big dance smart and let these little doubts creep in.
Yes, I love winning the Conference tourneys every year, it’s amazing how much we dominate our pretty good conference. And yes I love how much we win all the friggin time year in and year out, and gotta like our Big Dance '08 win. And yes, got lots of love for our coach and our tradition too.
So as I sit here still stuffed from Thanksgiving, I need to remind myself I have lots to be thankful as a diehard KU fan.
It’s just… well sometimes I feel like if we were really as good as I think we are, we’d go a little further in the Dance each year, and we’d scratch a few more quality wins against non-big 12 teams during the season. I know greedy right?
Well, a nice win on Sunday vs Michigan State would really help continue that warm fuzzy thanksgiving feeling this year.
Oh and Santa, you could continue that warm fuzzy feeling with Oubre catching on fire and Greene shooting lights out from the three for the rest of the season…
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@HighEliteMajor " I know we exchanged observations on Self’s lack of the quick hook before the game, and Self stayed true to form. This is really a terrific, and refreshing, development. Greene threw up a bad NBA range three right as he got in the game. Self didn’t move. It’s just a different, more positive dynamic. I really hope it keeps up. "
More than likely this is due to the paint presence last year of Embid & Black & the slashing ability of Wiggins. In past years his patience was always tested by freshman, but Svi, Cliff & Graham are playing above that typical level & the rest have been in his system for awhile now. Admittedly patience isn’t exactly Bill’s strong suit either. Chemistry is beginning to take a little shape & vs UK they had not experienced a battle before them. They took a couple of good punches in the chops today & their response the final 5 min encouraged me. Agree it is refreshing as hell-no Wiggins to cater to is a lot of it IMO. Also agree the token start for Oubre vs UK was exactly that. Hope we do get MSU Sunday to test the waters further. Am really enjoying getting to finally see what we have for the season & may watch the game again before I hit the hay-many distractions today during the live broadcast.
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Yesterdays 7 are todays 7 too: Mason, Selden, Svi, Ellis, Lucas, Alexander, Greene
In this game I saw a first team and a second team in the first 10 minutes. Team Selden was so much better than Team Traylor. Team Traylor (Graham, Greene, Oubre, Traylor, Alexander) gave back all that was built by Team Selden (Mason, Selden, Svi, Ellis, Lucas) in the opening shift.
14:05 The change over begins with KU up 10-6. Alexander for Lucas and Greene for Svi.
12:23 Graham for Mason to complete the switch to Team Traylor with KU up 14-7.
10:26 Team Traylor leaves the court in a mass substituion with the game tied at 17-17.
At 8:49, down 19-18, Team Selden is in the game stopping the Tennesse momentum that began with Team Traylor on the floor.
7:27 Selden’s three to establish a 25-19 lead! Set up by one Mason’s D boards. Out of all the positives for him today, Mason also hit the defensive glass.
6:19 Alexander for Lucas. Alexander is a monster off the bench.
5:02 Greene replaces Svi with KU up 29-22. Svi’s second shift is 5:24, to put him over 11 minutes in the first half. Svi’s shifts are +11 so far today.
KU gets to the break with that 11 point lead: 40-33.
Team Selden starts the second half.
14:59 Kelly Oubre is subbed into the game for Svi and Svi is done for the day with 19 minutes and 7 points. KU 54-43
14:19 Graham for Selden. Mason moves to shooting guard and KU has more handles to deal with the Tennesse tempo, press, presure which does not work.
12:52 Traylor for Ellis. Mason is the only one left for Team Selden. Greene has yet to check into the game and Kansas keeps turning the ball over for easy Tennesse buckets.
12:32 Selden for Mason. Strange that we don’t yet see Greene. Tennesse with a 3, a steal at half court from pressure to cut the lead to 1: 54-53
12:12 Self turns to Mason, Selden, Greene, Ellis, to finish the game. At this point Traylor joins them.
7:17 Alexander for Traylor. A couple of threes keeps the ‘Hawks up though they don’t look sharp over the last 5 minutes. 62-60
5:29 Alexander is the best player on the floor during this two minute stretch to create that important 5 point cushion with 5 minutes left. KU 67-62
KU finishes the game out well without giving Tennesse a sniff at it.
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OH MAN …did you see it? Did you catch it? Did you see the new star? You know…the guy with the swag in the middle?You know who I’m talking about…the star of the Jayhawks …the guy that had his coming out party today…Mr. Alexander? A star is born. The leader of our team made an appearance today, and he was HUGE. We are a different team when he is on the floor. I can’t wait to see what he will do against Sparty…
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@BeddieKU23 “I think we have seen some seperation in the rotation. Ellis, Mason, Svi, and Selden are clearly ahead. I think its wise to Keep Lucas with his size in there because he buys Cliff 4-5 minutes of non-fouls. Cliff is going to start at some point…”
I suppose the question is when to start Alexander and only Self knows. I feels as if we keep this trips rotation scheme in place for Sunday. For me it would be good to keep Lucas starting and protecting Alexander through the Florida, Georgetown stretch too. Utah is two weeks away, LaFayette is in three weeks and Kent State is a month out. Will it happen in December? If both Lucas and Alexander are going to be clocking the same amount of minutes that they are now then keep Alexander on the bench to save him for closing.
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Now we have MSU, Florida, & Georgetown back to back to back, with only the Florida game in the friendly confines of AFH. We’re going to get an early snapshot of just what these young men can become. Looking back, that friggin schedule last year was just absolutely brutal. Sure hope coach learned from that lesson about “too much, too soon.”
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Did you see calmly Mason dribbling through the trees to the foul line on a half court set then kicking the ball back to open guys on the perimeter? This was a glimpse of the x axis game everyone was waiting for. This and his finishes with floaters was less Sherron, more CP3/Nash. The deep deep oop to Alexander was spot on. I love seeing this guy have swag executing the right play. Also the steal on the sideline, instantly having control and pushing the ball the length of the floor for a transition bucket. FRANK FOR MVP.
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@globaljaybird Essentially, MSU has 3 vets ( Dawson, Trice, and Valentine) vs. Perry, Frank, and Wayne. Beyond that, we have worlds more depth than Sparty. The question is: can we limit their top 3? They scored at will against Marquette. I wish we were playing this game a month from now …
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Good comments. I am SOLD on Mason. Kid is solid. Like a faster VanVleet, just a bit more athletic (kid has springs), and I consider VanVleet an A-rated Div.1 PG. Sold on Graham, but he’s learning the O. Same for Oubre…I’m not down on Kelly at all, just needs time. Greene has a knack for big threes, but man does he seem to have clunky slow feet on D. Greene is the victor in the AW3 battle, as well as FrankampGate-exit. Svi can play! Again, he is the complete young player. Now we see why he is a 5star player, at age 17.
Big Cliff showing us the whole pkg, & I commented to family that he also shown he ca avoid quick fouls, compared to frosh TRob or Arthur.
Lucas = ready to play. Credit Self.
Credit Self with this unSelfian BeFreeTo3 mentality. To give a 17yr old kid + this whole team a green light on 3s just feels like new territory for Self. Hate to say it, but this inside-first, but now-OK to take a rhythm3 anytime in the possession resembles Duke a bit, but that formula shouldnt bother anybody. Its not Self copying anybody, but just happenning now based on time/circumstance of what skills we have on the roster.
Self realized, that to open up things for the bigs, he’s got to make people fear our 3gunners. Ultimately, we develop confidence in our 3game, and with Self’s tough inside play mentality, along with very versatile guards who are getting better at drive/dish/shoot decisions…we become a very balanced & deep team.
Finally, Oubre staying another year is a GOOD thing…he may be like Selden & stay multiple seasons. Better for him, better for Selden, better for Self’s system. Love to have top30 guys for multiple seasons!
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@KUSTEVE I just made similar comments on the other thread. They also have Forbes, who is a transfer and a very good shooter. They also have some other experienced guys (Costell, Schilling) I agree, they are further along than we are at this point in the season due to their experience.
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@ralster We would all like to see Oubre stay longer than one year. Based on the development so far that would seem to be a good possibility. But…he could demonstrate his potential, play a lot and go on a mini scoring binge for, say, 3 games in the post season…that could be enough for him to be guaranteed a high draft pick in today’s world. So, you never know.
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@Hawk8086 We’re more talented - they’re more experienced. Can we play with the poise that is necessary to beat an Izzo team?
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I will say that there is no way that we get back all of our perimeter players for next season. Six deserving players is one too many.
Someone will have to go.
I’ll go a step further - I think two will end up going after this season. All six are of the skill level that deserves major minutes, and not scraps. It has to happen.
In the meantime, we can enjoy perhaps the deepest group of perimeter players KU has ever had.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
I will say that there is no way that we get back all of our perimeter players for next season. Six deserving players is one too many.
Someone will have to go.
I’ll go a step further - I think two will end up going after this season. All six are of the skill level that deserves major minutes, and not scraps. It has to happen.
In the meantime, we can enjoy perhaps the deepest group of perimeter players KU has ever had.
The only way that holds true is if either situation happen:
Selden turns it on and becomes more of the offense, continues to play good d, keeps racking up the assists and keeps his 3pt shooting & FT #'s up. Right now I’d only say he’s racking up the assists & playing good d. That won’t get him the guaranteed 1st round pick. He’s going to have to really pick it up to be back in the stock rising column.
Oubre really gets over the freshman wall and starts playing instead of thinking. Becomes a key part of the rotation and shows the Athleticism, shooting and Defense we all know he’s got.
While there is plenty of time for both to do some of these things that will get scouts back on them, right now they haven’t. Right now there is a good chance everyone on the perimeter is coming back. We aren’t really recruiting guards, Dorsey seems likely going west, Jaylen Brown has seen other teams join the race since he singled out KU and UK this fall as “leaders”.
Greene has shown he can play and will be apart of the rotation. Svi has been better than advertised in area’s especially starting games this early. He will be back. Mason and Graham holding down the PG situation. We could in theory return everyone on the perimeter which would be great since our attrition at the guard spots has been horrid of late.
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@HighEliteMajor Two huh? You don’t think there’s enough minutes to go around for 5? I think Self might be able to keep 5 happy. To do this though, he has to acknowledge the top 5 and drop the 6th man (right now that’s Oubre) from getting minutes all together. He can’t give that 6th guy 4-5 mpg like he is now. Distributing those elsewhere is likely the difference between a guy playing 10 mpg and being disgruntled and leaving, and playing 15 mpg and being placated enough to stay.
This will also severly hinder any attempts to bring in a top tier perimeter recruit in the spring. Which I’d be fine with, assuming Self can keep 5 of the current players on the team. This is also operating under the assumption that no one turns pro, which as I was postulating earlier it doesn’t look like anyone on the perimeter is that close, IMO.
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@BeddieKU23 You seem to avoid the word “transfer.” Let say this – like, I’d bet a large some of money on it – all six won’t be back. You mention that “in theory” we could return all six. That’s not theory, that’s crazy talk, my man.
Let’s try one example. Say that Oubre gets more minutes, hits some threes, and plays good defense heading into February. He squeezes Greene’s minutes. Self shows a preference for Oubre over Greene. Svi stays at 20 mpg. Even now, the 6th guy is getting 4-5 minutes (Oubre). Say Greene is odd man out this season and Oubre returns for his sophomore year. All others are back. Why would Greene even consider returning? Or let’s assume that Greene remains ahead of Oubre but is the 5th perimeter guy; and Oubre leaves, but Self gets a commit from Jaylen Brown.
Example #2. Mason’s play regresses. Graham takes over in late January. Mason still gets 12 or so mpg, but Graham is clearly the man. Regardless of who comes back, wouldn’t Mason consider transferring given that a player one class behind him is preferred the starter? Meaning his career would be as a back up. Or flip it around. What if Mason is a stud and Graham is getting 12 per game? Will he want to stay at a spot where his only season to start might be his senior season?
Example #3. Oubre rides the bench all season. His draft stock slips. Everyone is back. It becomes clear that Oubre does not fit with what Self wants to do. Oubre needs to reestablish himself to get drafted. An Oubre transfer would then make sense.
One will go. Transfer or turning pro. Book it.
Now, @icthawkfan316, the question becomes will there be two? I don’t think that there is enough to go around for 5 guys unless Self changes his normal philosophy. Usually, that 5th spot is limited minutes. You are exactly right. He could keep 5 happy, but he’d have to eliminate the gratuitous 6th man minutes all together --> Ex. Mason 30, Selden 30, Svi 22, Greene 20, Graham 18. But that would require a major change in how Self does things. What will make that hard is what we saw yesterday (and throughout his tenure). In crunch time, he’ll go with who he feels most comfortable with. He chose Greene over Svi. That means four guys at most. Fifth guy with lower minutes. We think he could do more, but when the game’s on the line, he plays the guys he thinks will win the game.
I agree, as well, that I’d be fine if we could keep 5 of the 6 and get no new recruits. Actually, that is my major preference. I particularly don’t want to lose guys because we get the next OAD (Brown, for example). Let’s just get Bragg and another big.
Heading into next season, this group of perimeter players will be the best in the country. I wouldn’t trade this group for any other group.
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@HighEliteMajor So the Frankamp transfer, given its timing, was a practically necessary clarification. If Frankamp was leaving, much better leave the team now and not use up a single minute - easier to say when everybody else is hitting 3s… Same for AWIII when you think of it.
What you really meant is 3 will have left for sure, and probably 4 - counting those two.
On not recruiting a perimeter player for next year: I get the reasoning, but what about later years? If too many of those guys leave at the same time, our cupboard is bare and we’re back to the problem that put us on the OAD merry-go-round in the first place.
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@ParisHawk speaking of CF- quitter- he and his family at the WSU game, again.
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@ParisHawk Ah yes, the OAD merry-go-round. Tyler Dorsey is ranked #19 by Rivals and Brandon Ingram at #18 would not be likely OADs. Jaylen Brown and Malik Newman are considered likely OADs. That’s it on the perimeter. Last I heard, we’re not leaders on any of them. @konkeyDong’s input would be helpful here. I had heard Ingram was either KU or UK, but then I heard UNC was more likely. Many think Dorsey is leaning to California. But we’re squarely in with him.
They’re the only perimeter guys we’re now recruiting. Ingram is more of three. Dorsey a two that wants to be a PG. So perhaps perfect situation is that one leaves (not Mason or Graham as we need the PGs), and we sign Dorsey as our sixth.
What does become tough, though, is getting caught – say we keep 5 and get none of the perimeter guys this season. Perhaps we add an unranked scrub as our 6th guy. Then the next season we lose three of them. That’s where the merry-go-round inflicts some pain.
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Some how I see it as highly unlikely that Oubre transfers. If he does that he would have to sit one year and then play at least one more. His best shot, time-wise, is come up to sped and improve his stock this year and maybe stay an extra year. The other option would be going to the Development League or Europe. He is got too much potential to delay his entry in the League by at least two years if he transfers. I was not surprised to see Frankamp transfer since his schedule is quite different and he is long, long shot to make it to the NBA, so an extra year in college would not hurt and may actually help him.
Greene is a different situation insofar as he has already invested 2 years at KU. He has NBA level potential on offense but his defense is lagging far behind. If he can improve his defense, and stays 2 more years, I can see him playing in the NBA; no better place to learn defense than KU.
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@HighEliteMajor The PG scenarios you laid out in your “Example #2” are the scariest. We’ve been searching for solid PG play for so long! We got close to a year of it with senior Tyshawn (and maybe first semester junior Tyshawn too I suppose). That’s it since Sherron left. And now we have two guys, a sophomore & a freshman, that I think most are very excited about. It would be a shame to lose either.
@JayHawkFanToo I think regarding Oubre you are caught up on his “potential” and high school ranking. You are not alone. Obviously Self is (or was) in the same boat, hence the UK start. But who is he going to overtake for minutes? It’s highly unlikely he’s going to shoot as well as Greene. Svi looks to be more polished at every phase of the game, so surpassing him seems unlikely. He’s not going to surpass Selden. His best shot is that Selden leaves after this year, thus allowing him to at least be the 5th perimeter option. But ask yourself: in a scenario where Selden, Graham (who could steal minutes at the 2), Svi, & Greene all stay…how is he going to improve his stock at KU? Who do you honestly see him beating out?
As I’ve said in previous posts, I thought he was supposed to be a stud on the defensive end, and that would endear him to Self and thus enable him to see the court for significant minutes. It could still happen; he has the height, length, & athleticism that make him an attractive option. But the point is he was supposed to further along already; more “out-of-the-box” ready. Apparently he isn’t, so it must be taught & learned. And that’s put him on the outside looking in, where his opportunities to impress will be extremely limited.
I could be wrong, and Self could get paranoid about scaring off top recruits and begin playing him without merit again. Or everything could click for him, the game could slow down, and he might live up to his lofty ranking this year after all. But if he can’t make up ground in-season this year and overtake someone for minutes, and if nobody leaves, why would he stay?
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@icthawkfan316 I agree that it is difficult to see whom Oubre is going to beat out. But I think he does have an advantage over Greene and Svi. While he may not have the basketball IQ that Svi does or the pure shooting stroke that either one has, I think he is an overall better athlete. I think he is quicker, faster, stronger than they are…that is why he was a McDonald’s AA and a success on the AAU circuit. He hasn’t shown much of those skills because he is “thinking rather than playing”. He has shown a couple of flashes of talent…a couple of drives to the basket that looked very quick and smooth to me. His time could come out of a combination of Greene/ Svi/ Graham minutes. This would result in more guys in the rotation than Self usually employs…and you would be justified in saying that won’t happen. But, I think one way or the other Oubre’s natural talent, and Self’s desire to get playing time for a McDonald’s AA will result in Oubre playing more as the season progresses.
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It is not potential alone. I have seen Oubre play in a couple of all-star games and he was excellent; also, if you look at the Kentucky game, granted not the best game to evaluate players, but Oubre was the best KU player at that game. I have no doubts that Oubre can play, he is just having a harder time than other players adapting to Coach Self’s system, maybe thinking too much like @Hawk8086 mentioned, but once he becomes more familiar with it, I would not be surprised if he starts later in the season.
Also, as far as not having enough time. I just don’t buy it. If UK can find time for 10 McD All-Americans, I am sure Coach self can find time for his less heralded players. There is no reason why the team cannot have 5 players averaging 25+/- minuted and 5 others averaging 15+/- minutes. Maybe We can platoon like UK…
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@JayHawkFanToo I agree, I watched Oubre play and he was a stud!! I think Self will rotate them and give the hot hand more time! That will change from game to game. No platoon! Never want to hear that again!
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Sorry???
Coach Self has been doing a lighter version of it already; maybe we can come up with name of our own…any ideas?
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@JayHawkFanToo he’s NOT subbing 5 for 5.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Also, as far as not having enough time. I just don’t buy it. If UK can find time for 10 McD All-Americans, I am sure Coach self can find time for his less heralded players.
I am sure that it is possible to play that many players (we are obviously seeing it at Kentucky), but what evidence have we seen from Self that he will change? This isn’t the first team we’ve thought was deep, yet come conference play, it’s 8 players. Maybe 9. You might not buy it, but you’re not the buyer. You have to sell it to Self. And for 10 plus years in Lawrence, he hasn’t looked to be in the market for that. As has been pointed out, we saw it in the Tennessee game. Come crunch time, his rotation shrinks. So yeah, they’ll be playing Lafayette in 3 weeks and in a blowout he’ll distribute the minutes out a little more, but for the majority of the season…don’t bet on it.
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@JayHawkFanToo Really, though, the all star games don’t mean much when translating to a coach Self coached team. But I saw the same thing you did. What we saw was not (Self) team basketball. What Oubre showed in those all star games may translate better to a non system coach, or to a coach that is not so demanding or precise in his requirements. I think that explains a bit why many other top 15 or so guys are starting every game, and playing big minutes. I think part of the answer too is that we have other options and thus he doesn’t get on the job training.
I will be surprised if Oubre starts this season based on merit vs. another national TV game against a team we’re competing with for recruits. This for one main reason – Svi.
I just struggle to see how he overtakes Svi. Is there anything that Oubre, even if you look at his potential, does better than Svi? All I can identify is perhaps slashing to the hoop. The game changer is that Svi is much, much better defensively than we could ever have imagined. He is a tremendous passer and ball mover. Svi won’t stagnate, either. Meaning, Oubre may start grasping more, but Svi will too. If Svi starts hitting the three, he will be the best all around player on this team.
Also, don’t forget that Svi is projected to go #4 in the 2016 NBA draft. He has as much or more “potential” than Oubre, who was projected top 10. (for whatever it’s worth, Oubre, has completely dropped out of the draft projection at nbadraft.net – Cliff is down to #15 by the way).
I think we just assume Oubre is going to magically get better, and adapt, and learn, and assimilate. Compare to the exact same discussion many of us had about Josh Selby. It is not a given. And I think the risk of non-assimilation is greater on a coach Self coached team.
Actually, I think Oubre’s chances to start next season hinge totally on two things – whether Selden and Svi return. If they both come back, I think both will start next season at the 2/3.
Think of it this way. If you could draft a team for next season from current KU players, who would be your first choice right now?
I’d pick Svi.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Lots of guys are studs in high school. Just like lots of guys are studs at the collegiate level. Yet that doesn’t always translate to the next level. Maybe Oubre comes around. It’s possible. But he’s behind the rest of the perimeter players right now, so it will be an uphill battle for him. The one thing he has working for him are his lofty high school ranking & credentials. As has been discussed, Self seemed to pander to that once and it’s well within the realm of possibility that it happens again.
The issue really isn’t whether Oubre can play or not. The issue is opportunity. Minutes. Available playing time. However you want to phrase it. HEM has discussed this at length on many occasions. We’ve seen it season after season. Someone is on the outside looking in at available playing time, and often that leads to a transfer. Look at CF. Last year Self did just enough with both him & Greene to keep them around. Not rotation level minutes, but (depending on how you want to look at it) he either carved out a limited role for them or threw them scraps of minutes. That led to both players returning this year. But after awhile CF saw the writing on the wall and knew it would be doubtful he cracked the regular rotation this season, and knew he’d be in a dogfight for playing time for the remainder of his time at KU, so he elected to leave.
That situation is what I am predicting for Oubre. Just an objective assessment of the situation. There’s no immediate playing time guaranteed to open up at the 2 or the 3, and he’s behind 3 players for minutes right now (4 if you include Graham playing alongside Mason for stretches). There’s also no guarantee Self doesn’t recruit over him with the next OAD flavor of the month. Circumstances could change, sure. The scenarios are as follows:
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He overtakes someone for playing time in the midst of the current season. The most likely candidate is Greene, due to his sub-par defense. Svi would be the next candidate, assuming he never finds his shooting touch and Oubre can make some gains on him in other areas.
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Selden turns pro after this season. As I’ve said, I find this unlikely at this point, as he would have to see a moderate uptick in his scoring.
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Svi heads home after one season.
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Injury.
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He doesn’t overtake anyone for minutes this season, yet he feels he improves enough between his freshman & sophomore campaign that he can unseat someone next year.
Over the summer I had predicted Oubre would step right in for Wiggins and would be the starter, so it’s not like I haven’t been high on him as you and @JayHawkFanToo still are. But so far, even including the Kentucky game (which for all the talk about him being the best player in that game, Self saw fit to play him a whopping 13 minutes), he looks to be lagging behind, which if he stays there puts him on the transfer watch.
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@icthawkfan316 I agree with you completely. Every year (except 2011-12) we’re deep. We’re going to expand the rotation. 2009-10 (TRob, EJ), then 2010-11 (Releford, EJ), 2012-13 (White and Adams), and last season. It never happens.
I’d say 2010-11 is the best comparison. We had 10 guys average over 10 mpg during the season. But even that was misleading. Many of Releford’s minutes were token minutes. That left nine. Mario Little didn’t really play many meaningful minutes. EJ was shut out of many, many important situations. Four of those guys (Little, Releford, EJ, and Selby) got ditched in many key games and situations.
The idea on a rotation is that they are regular and consistent contributors. Self has never done that.
Look at the boxscore for the Big 12 title game. EJ had played admirably for TT during his suspension, then got just a handful of minutes. Selby had averaged bigger minutes, then hardly anything. Look at the box score for our first round NCAA game vs. the vaunted Boston Terriers. 7 guys in double figures on a team where 10 guys averaged double figures.
The point is that even with an incredibly deep team, and even with the #1 recruit on the bench, Self will revert to prior form. He’ll choose his most trusted guys, and go with them when it counts.
Heck, look at it right now. He’s already done that this season in the second half of games.
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@HighEliteMajor Your points on Svi are valid. But, I could see Oubre take some of Greene’s minutes…or a combination of Greene and other players.
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@icthawkfan316 did you see Oubre play this past summer? He was playing against other standout players. I’m not talking about hs. Guess we will wait and see.
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@Hawk8086 Svi needs to start hitting. I thought he was doing better last game, but didn’t play much. I think we use the 10.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Agreed, Svi needs to hit his 3s.
Also, remember, we may “use” 10 guys. Self “used” 10 in 2009-10 for over 10 mpg. But we clearly didn’t have a 10 man rotation. We didn’t have a 9 man rotation. He’d give Releford some minutes in the first half, then a nibble in the second. He added minutes in mop up to get to 10. Much the same way with Little. He’d basically get a some here and there, and when fouls were an issue to get to 13 per game. EJ would flat sit for long stretches. No “rotation” there.
Do you see that differently; or when you say “use”, do you mean just “use” in terms of "play, and not a rotation of 10?
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@HighEliteMajor I think we rotate 10, providing Oubre improves like I think he will. Cliff will have trouble w/fouls, Greene could get in the doghouse, injuries, cold shooting. Mostly match ups. With 3 pt shooting, some days you are off, next guy might be hot. Selden has been looking better, but before these last few games I could see him sitting more. Jmo
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah I saw him at the Nike Hoop Summit. He guarded Emmanuel Mudiay and looked very good doing it. But how much stock do we put in all-star games? Games with thrown together talent meant to showcase those individual talents. The purpose of those games is not to win. How one fits onto a team, within a system, and against a majority of players who have adapted to the college game is very different than how someone looks against other high school stars all looking to get theirs. I’m with HEM…how much do those summer games really mean when trying to translate his performance to a Self coached team?
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@icthawkfan316 I guess I do. I saw superb athleticism, desire to keep his man from scoring, and a team player.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
I saw superb athleticism, desire to keep his man from scoring, and a team player.
And if all those were translating from summer league all-star games to Self’s system, don’t you think he’d be playing more? Those are all things Self values, especially the defense.
Again, that’s what we’re talking about: not what we saw prior to his arrival at KU, but what we’ve seen on the court now. I don’t disagree with what you saw. I saw it too. But I haven’t seen those things translate to this level. And my point is when it does translate, will it be too late to overtake Svi or Greene for minutes? Because they are going to continue to improve as well, likely at a higher rate because they are seeing more game action right now. He’s not going to steal them from Selden, barring a complete breakdown of Self-fundamentals on Wayne’s part.
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@icthawkfan316 just a difference of opinion.
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“Don’t you think the killer instinct thing was at least partially on display by the nice finish?”
Finishing well is probably the #1 characteristic you want to see in a team.
But for me… “killer instinct” is the instinct of pouncing on your prey when you already have them down to finish the job. Killer instinct is another positive characteristic you want to have because it prevents you from always having to finish well just to win.
We clearly were the better team. We brought the best players, and the better athleticism. There were times when we lowered ourselves to their level of play and Tenn responded with a come back.
Still… it’s November and we are young. This was a nice victory, especially on the road in an early tourney, where kids are often distracted by things like Disneyworld.
I hope we bring the focus and effort against Izzo.
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@icthawkfan316 Sooo what do you and HEM look for when recruiting kids for ks?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well I can’t speak for HEM, and obviously I am not doing any actual recruiting. I kind of get the sense this is not a real question but rather a barb directed at my assessment at Oubre, as if you’re saying “since you don’t think he belongs on the team, what are you looking for when you recruit?” Could be wrong, but if it is what you meant I’ll again say that I was impressed with Oubre coming in as well. I’ve admitted I saw the same things you saw and was stoked we got him. It doesn’t change my assessment that he is lagging behind and that I think it’s going to be hard for him to earn minutes.
But assuming it was a real question, what I like to see in the kids Self recruits depends on the needs of the team, but I’ll list a few general things. Personally I’m over the OAD craze. I’d like to see us focus on non-presumed OAD talent. For years I’ve also been hoping Self would get away from the “combo guard” situation and go out and recruit actual PGs. I do value athleticism, but not at the expense of basketball IQ, meaning I don’t like the Al Davis approach to things in which you just recruit athletes because they have physical gifts you can’t teach and your ego tells you that you can teach them the game. So I like it when we bring in guys like Svi, or Graham, who seem to just “get it”. I think he needs to start adding more height in the post.
There’s obviously tons of desirable traits, both tangible and intangible, in incoming recruits: coachability, good attitude, hard worker, good student, team player, outside shooting touch, toughness, nose for the ball, ball handling, passing, hops, speed, hates Missouri, etc.
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@icthawkfan316 Heavy on the 'hates Missouri"…lol. I think she was gigging you with her question…lol.
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@HighEliteMajor and @icthawkfan316
After the game ESPN had a programs called “The Experts” where they had a round table discussion moderated by Jay BIlas with Jim Boeheim, Mike Krzyzewski, Rick Pitino and Roy Williams. Among the different things they discussed was the potential separation of the top conferences from the NCAA; one of the points Pitino made was about the current NCAA Tournament format and he indicated that under the current format any team can upset a higher seed team and win the Tournament but if they would switch to a NBA-like series, talent would win every time, which is something I have mentioned many times.
The analogy can be expanded to the Oubre, Greene, Svi situation. There is no question that fundamentals-wise, Svi is head and shoulders above the other two, a result no doubt of having played in professional leagues in Europe, Greene is the better shooter but athleticism-wise, Oubre is the best of the bunch. Let’s keep in mind that unlike the NCAA Tournament, this is not a sprint and it is more like conference play, more of a marathon. Much like a series instead of single elimination games, in the end talent when paired with experience will prevail. Yes, Svi has the edge in fundamentals and Greene has one extra year in the system but in the long run, and once the game “slows down” for him, Oubre might end up being the better player.
Whitey mentioned that when he came to college the game seemed so much faster than what he was accustomed but once he got some experience, the game slowed down and he became a dominant rim protector, perhaps the best we have had since …well Chamberlain…and yet, when he went to the NBA he experienced the exact same thing all over again, where the game seemed a lot faster than what he was accustomed, but now that he as playing experience, the game has once again slowed down. I believe that in time,. the game will “slow down” for Oubre and we will see some great playing from him. I would not quite dismiss him based on what we have seen in handful of games and would wait longer to gauge his progress and potential.
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@JayHawkFanToo You could be right about Oubre. But you’re dealing with all hypothetical “if this, then that” scenarios. Yes Oubre “might” end up being the better player. You “believe” that in time… All I’m doing right now is objectively analyzing the situation. What actually is right now.
You mention Withey and what happened with him. You say “once he got some experience.” Here is my point: does Oubre have that kind of time? Withey had to wait years before playing time opened up and he had the opportunity to garner that experience. I’ve laid out the scenarios for Oubre to see more PT and increase his opportunities. Greene certainly could leave the door open for Oubre to overtake him, but will even that be enough? Today both saw 6 minutes (and neither impressed). Self could very well go with 4 main perimeter players as we saw today, leaving both out of the main rotation. If that’s the case, and Selden & Svi both return next year, how patient will Oubre be? How long would he be willing to wait?
(And yes, Self could find time for him this year even if he is the 5th or 6th perimeter player. But he definitely won’t if he’s the 6th, and it could be sporadic if he’s the 5th)
