Rider Recap
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@JayhawkFanToo - I realize you don’t “believe it.” Maybe you don’t want to believe it? Regardless, that’s your call. But I’m not saying it’s fact. I fully believe that this is speculation, and you might be right. I just think the evidence stacks up pretty well.
Just my opinion here after watching the game, combined with the other games – Oubre simply looks lost out there. Times when he’s turning around, like he’s not sure what to do. Or awkwardly hesitating. Times on defense where he seems frozen, and one when a guy from the weak side was driving and he just stood outside the far block. To anyone watching Oubre, it seems clear that he is behind Greene and Svi, isn’t it? Self has talked about others needing to “gain strength” – that guy needs it as much as anyone.
You say that Oubre was our “best player” vs. UK. Can’t argue with that. I really like his drive to the hoop. So then, with that, why did Self then not play him much? 13 minutes? Only 8th in minutes that game on the team. You have to admit that the evidence stacks up pretty solidly that the UK deal was a “show” start. Did you see the pregame video
Self had referred to Alexander before related to not doing things correctly of the court, by name. This reference was vague, and could have been anyone not in the starting lineup. But obviously sounds like either Cliff or Oubre. Never know, it could have been Traylor. He had that issue at one point (going to class or something).
All that said, Oubre is apparently extremely talented. We could see him more this weekend. If Self thinks he’s the best guy, I hope Self starts him and plays him more than the 13 minutes vs. UK, and the 15 minutes last night.
But right now, just the eye test here, I would say that Svi is the better all around player. Does more, and obviously knows more. Greene’s shooting is desperately needed on this team. It’s nice to have Oubre’s talent curve, waiting to explode upward.
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My take so far 3 games into the season. The starters or guys that have put in the most minutes have tallied up 107 points in 384 minutes of play. The next 5 guys with fewer minutes have 83 points in 187 minutes of action. If you flop the minutes our bench would have put up 169 points. Once the bench starts to play instead of think our guys are going to KILL IT!!! Hope it happens before conference play.
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@HighEliteMajor Pretty much the same way I see Oubre at the moment. He’s like that 3rd ACE lurking near the top of the stack in a five-card poker game. And, yeah, I concurred with your take on his starting vs. UK; although I can understand why JahawkFanToo and J. Newell anointed him best player in that hapless contest. If Kelly bears patience and determination, sooner or later he will burst forth. Right now he looks timid and a bit lost.
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@Statmachine Fascinating stats. Thanks for your post.
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@HighEliteMajor Referring to your opening post: very high quality analysis - I would say “as usual” if I didn’t think you were actually raising your own high standard. One sign of superior analysis: many can see what’s there, few check what’s missing - like Sherlock Holmes who noticed that the dog didn’t bark…
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Wasn’t able to watch the game in Nebraska so oh well, it was Rider.
Glad to hear some good things coming out of the game though. Sheldon’s 9 assist, Traylor was second on the team I saw in the stats. Ellis dunked??? WOW who knew he had it in him? He needs to do that a lot more.
Avi seems to slowly becoming a leader on the floor by his actions. Is this true or not?
Greene shooting and shooting well, that’s what he needs to get him going, now to just keep him within the team.
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@REHawk - “Pretty much the same way I see Oubre at the moment. He’s like that 3rd ACE lurking near the top of the stack in a five-card poker game.” ---- great analogy.
@Statmachine - So who should start then? I have had this weird, “why is Selden starting” thing in the back of my mind for a while. He’s the anointed one. I know, silly thought. If Oubre ends up being the stud, and ball handling is the commodity we all really know it is (as @joeloveshawks noted), then could our best perimeter lineup actually be Mason or Graham, paired with Svi and Oubre? Try this – is Svi better right now than Selden? Interesting to consider.
@ParisHawk – Thanks, much appreciated. It is a great time of the year. Three games in four days coming up. Doesn’t get much better than that. I’ll be locked down on Thanksgiving day, away from a computer post-game … don’t quite know how I’ll handle that.
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@HighEliteMajor I haven’t got completely into gear and this is a really small sample size. For example if you gave Mickelson Traylors minutes he would average 15pts 5 boards and 5 blocks. I would have to think that Ellis, Alexander, and Lucas would be our 3 bigs. No more Mason, and start Selden at point Mason has 5ast to 5 turnovers and Selden 12 to 5 and has about the same stat line outside of that. Go with Svi, and Green starting with Oubre coming off the bench. The rest is situational depending on who we are playing and needs of the team.
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@HighEliteMajor On Oubre, is he more of a product of AAU ball where it’s run and gun, little D and try and out score the other team, run a motion offense when you are in the half court?
Only got to see him in the KY game and well I won’t judge anyone from that game.
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@JayHawkFanToo somebody else said Mari. Who knows?
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@wrwlumpy love the pic, send it to SZ!!
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@JRyman oubre came in known as an awesome defender! I saw him play in quite a few all-star games, so surprising to see him so timid!
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@Statmachine your stats don’t tell us how it works the other way- how many pts would Mari’s man have if Hunter was guarding him? IMO, you can’t just plug in stats that way.
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@Crimsonorblue22 You’re right BUT when the objective is to out score your opponent then scoring is kind of a big deal. A difference of 80 points over 3 games is a heck of a lot of points and I am sure that the drop in defense doesn’t account for 80 points. If you add 80 points over 3 games we would have an average of about 90pts per game. Our opponents would have had to hang over 90 points on us to beat us… I can see the reason HCBS plays the guys he is playing but seriously when our guys start to fire on all cylinders its going to be night and day better than what we have now…
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@Statmachine not saying scoring’s not a big deal, or I don’t appreciate your stats, BUT if Hunter would get that that many pts against the top bigs, why wouldn’t coach start him? There are so many intangibles the box score doesn’t show. Jmo
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@JayHawkFanToo my son just reminded me, I forgot, that coach referenced Cliff being tardy to off the court stuff a couple of games ago.
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@HighEliteMajor Interesting to consider for sure but I think Selden is a guy that we have to have playing huge minutes. Even if he is not playing the best right now he is a guy this team needs to be playing well late. The only way he plays well in March is if he is getting minutes all year and he will. You can just tell that Bill loves him. He started every game as a freshman. I like Mason at the PG still. The Graham sample size is still too small.
As far as the other best perimeter lineup I think you have to have Greene in there after last night. He is the only dead eye shooter on our entire team. Svi has flashes of a beautiful shot but I don’t think he is as good from deep as Greene. I love seeing Svi out there, though. I did not see his skills being this advanced this early in any way. What a nice surprise. Thankfully he can’t pull a Jo Jo and leave us after his one year of surprisingly good results.
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I have been wondering if lifting weights is effecting Svi’s shot? ALL of his shots are long if you have been keeping an eye on it. Is the strength and conditioning bothering his shot? Could be mental could be physical but as for right now its a very real thing. Oubre is shooting 50% from 3 just like Greene but he is not playing? I don’t know how all the pieces are coming together but I trust HCBS to fit it together.
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@joeloveshawks I agree w/you!! Greene just needs to keep his butt down and playing D so he can stay out there! Svi is so refreshing, I’m hoping his hustle and desire is contagious! Selden did a good job covering the pt, except on the press. Can’t have him there if we play a tough pressing team! We need him consistently at 2 or 3, but if he struggles, more than 1 guy can step in. Nice to know that, and hopefully that inspires Selden!
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My perspective is very limited since I cannot watch the games and have to rely on either the radios broadcast or the game live stats, so I am pretty much guessing what happens on the court at game time.
One question I asked but you did not address is the reason for the difference in performance between the two halves. Like I said, not being able to actually watch the game makes it difficult to see what happened.
It seems pretty clear that the newer players are having difficulty learning the system which was developed before the OAD era and depends on players staying longer than one year; the '08 team with experienced players executed the system beautifully and won the Championship. If Coach Self is going to continue pursuing the OADs, then maybe his system need to be modified to account for the shorter time available to learn the system. or else, he needs to go back to recruiting top 20-30 players that will stay at least 3 years and that he can develop into NBA capable players. Of the 13 KU players currently in the NBA that played for Coach Self, only Henry, Wiggins and Embiid were top 10 players and Embiid got there after signing with KU; the other 10 were not top 10 but developed nicely with several going lottery.
It is indeed an interesting dilemma. Do we recruit OAD players and the the publicity (read $$$) they bring, even when the team will not be as good, or do we stop recruiting OADs, get much less publicity but end up with a better product? Do we no longer have the recruiters that can spot raw talent that can be developed? Is a top tier player with little experience better than second tier player with experience? Lots of questions and really no right or wrong answers.
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@JayHawkFanToo Julian (now playing in Europe) was a top 10 recruit. I think Chalmers and Rush were both top 15 as was Arthur. Sherron was top 20. That group of guys was so stacked and the fact that all of that talent hung around (I know Julian left after 2007) was amazing and will probably never be duplicated in the OAD era by KU or any other college team.
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I left out Wright because he was not a consensus top 10; he was ranked as high as #5 and as low as #15…maybe borderline top 10???
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I am concerned about the Oubre situation. He looks like he is really struggling with his game, which is troubling for a player as naturally gifted as he is. He is questioning all of his moves, doing more thinking than actual playing. That is not good.
I think Oubre will get on track - he’s too good not to - but this does concern me as far as the coaching that is being done. A player that is that good should not be so bogged down with the system that they forget how to play basic basketball. Kelly needs to clear his head and play ball.
As for the rest, I like that Perry was aggressive offensively. I’d like to see him be that aggressive to the hole against bigger guys. It’s nice to dunk on some 6-7 guys from Rider, but they won’t block your shot either way. You need to dunk on bigger guys, because they will throw that shot back.
Mason is our best bet at PG. His speed makes a huge difference for this team. Self needs to give him the keys and let him drive. He will make mistakes along the way, but he’s the best bet for this team achieving its potential.
Svi and Greene will help space the floor all year. They should play together as often as possible to stretch the D in a lot of different directions.
Traylor and Alexander need to start getting minutes together. I’d like to see Self put out a lineup of Mason, Svi, Greene, Traylor and Alexander for a few minutes. That would basically let the big guys hammer the offensive glass with spacing because they have Svi and Greene to stretch the floor, and Mason has some drive and dish options. This is a lineup that should be cultivated.
Mickelson looks like the odd man out in the big rotation. Tough break for a guy that transferred in, but I can’t figure how he will find minutes either this year or next.
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@HighEliteMajor I also have wondered about Selden for the most of 2 yrs. Average shooter, often careless with the ball, better than avg defender. That may be Bills mantra to be the golden child so to seem. But I like Svi & Greene a lot, especially with Ciff on the floor. Wonder if Landon is still slowed by the injury? Oh we’ll maybe Ellis will dunk again before Christmas? Tray lot is a spark plug off the bench but not a starter either.
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How about Tarik Black? Going undrafted to the #10 spot on the NBA Rookie ladder!!!
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Mason is a very good player and a tough high value competitor. Do not underestimate his contribution and athleticism and place on this team. His ONLY weakness is height and maybe youth. He is getting better and is a STUD.
KU as a team cannot be a poor man’s UK, We need to be a team like the ones we have had over the past decade but without the 3-4 year players. This is a major adjustment in the OAD era. How to play sophisticated O and D with newbies?
The answer is not the OAD but the two and three year players who have superior talent but need to learn the game, and specifically the KY game.
We are short and fragile against length and height and great athletes. We compensate by pressuring on D (GOOD JOB COACH SELF, at long last) and being scrappy and tough on the boards, and smart on O.
But we have to let the 3 fly 15-20 times a game (and not just at the end of the shot clock) and make 35% and 70% free throws. If we do this, we will be good this year and next…ROCK CHALK!
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I believe Mason’s main problem is his mindset. He still plays like the HS volume shooter/scorer that the was and not the game manager/ball distributor the team needs him to be.
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Tarik fell into good situation in Houston. With Howard being injured and missing games, he had the opportunity to get lots of minutes that he would not have had otherwise…and he is making the most of it.
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When Perry dunked, we saw that hidden raw talent and explosiveness.
When Seldon passed last night we saw leadership and selflessness.
When Landon hit the reserve lay up, we saw Jo-Jo footwork and great potential for this year and next and next.
When Svi had that 3 minute stretch, we saw how he will contribute HUGE this year and next.
When Greene went for 17, we see the scoring potential of a 15 /game guy.
When Kelly matched up against UK, we saw the skill and talent in a mirror,
Alexander the Great is better than T-Rob and will be the key player in Feb and March, Can he learn to stay on the floor 25 + min / game?
Traylor is a STUD. Put him in anytime against anyone as the disruptor.
Graham is the LEADER…he will win us a few games this year a lot of games in Y2-4.
Hunter will come into two games this year in conference play and win them for us,and at least 2-3 next year as well. He might play in Europe.
Coach Self and assistants have a plan: the 2-3 year dones and a mixed model of UK and KU - only concern is need to upgrade the Offense.
roxck Chalk!
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Well the way I see this game is, as a team we didn’t get any better. And after the week this team had I would have thought that maybe we would come out and utterly dominated. We did the first half but the 2nd half wasn’t good. Good teams can put away an over-matched team both halves and right now we aren’t that.
Maybe I’m expecting too much, but its Kansas and success is all we know in the Self Era.
I’ve expected more from this team, not an unrealistic thing to expect and I’ve been pretty upset with individual play so far. I do think that with more games things will start to even out and Self will be able to get these guys to buy into what he’s selling.
It starts Thursday. We play basically 2 over-matched games before a possible Michigan St team. In order to win we need Selden to score and become that 2nd consistent scoring threat. He’s not shown much improvement so far. I loved his 9 dimes last night but he needs to score no matter what. When the minutes thin out and he’s getting 30, we can’t have him with zero points no matter the other ways he may impact the game.
Let’s hope practice goes well the next few days…
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I disagree with your statement that as a team KU did not get better. From reading reports of the game looks like KU played the best half of basketball so far in this season. Yes, the second half was not equally good and I am still not sure what changed; I posed that question earlier but I did not get an answer. Maybe Coach Self did not want it to become a blow out and get the players overconfident. BTW, the Vegas line for this game was 20 points so KU easily exceed the project spread.
I also disagree with Rhode Island being an over matched game. They are 3-0 having won their first two games easily and then beating #21 Nebraska, a team that is expected to contend in the Big 10; nothing over matched about that game. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Remember this game?
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
I disagree with your statement that as a team KU did not get better. From reading reports of the game looks like KU played the best half of basketball so far in this season. Yes, the second half was not equally good and I am still not sure what changed; I posed that question earlier but I did not get an answer. Maybe Coach Self did not want it to become a blow out and get the players overconfident. BTW, the Vegas line for this game was 20 points so KU easily exceed the project spread.
I also disagree with Rhode Island being an over matched game. They are 3-0 having won their first two games easily and then beating #21 Nebraska, a team that is expected to contend in the Big 10; nothing over matched about that game. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Remember this game?
Remind you we played Rider. We didn’t improve enough to believe that the ship has been fixed in one week. It’s probably asking too much for that to happen in such short fashion. KU will have to start playing at a much higher rate to win the better games still left on the non-conference slate.
Individually it was nice to see Svi and Greene make some baskets. Perry was solid against guys his size, Alexander was fantastic the first half and awful the 2nd. We played spirited D the first and let up the 2nd. I liked Lucas starting but it sounded like that was more to Self making a point with either Traylor or Cliff or both.
We certainly don’t have a lineup or rotation set and hopefully those things start to play out soon so that by conference play we have an identity. We need a spirited, improved team in Orlando!
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“Self’s has said before that he thinks good teams prefer being pressed.”
Yes, he said that. But he shouldn’t have because he, basically, inferred many of his teams were not good teams. I’ve never actually seen a Self team “prefer” to be pressed. I’ve seen many commit big time TOs under presses and perimeter guard pressure.
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@drgnslayr I used to LOVE for teams to press us when Roy was coach. Oh my gosh, that was simply a work of art watching our guys destroy presses.
BTW, in case I forget: Misery got stomped by Arizona … Booyah!
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…and Purdue too!!!
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@HighEliteMajor Well, I thought the tutoring reference was Traylor…he had been starting before and Lucas was kind of out of the blue…but we don’t know what has been going on in practice. I like Traylor as a back up also. Clearly, Oubre is behind Greene and Svi in terms of being in the right spot. But Self said, and it appears to be so…he is still trying to figure out who our best players are. I thought Mason was OK…did some good things…got in the lane…the one fast break layup was vintage Mason…but still needs to improve a lot. I do believe that Self will stick with him for a long time…Self seems to like what Mason brings to the table and will do everything he can to give the guy a chance to learn the position…unless Graham becomes the guy…Self has said that Frank is a scoring point…aka the 2nd ball handler.
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@JayHawkFanToo Nice catch!!! I was watching the Grapes vs Az, and they flashed the Purdue/Misery score…made me realize that Fizzou is piling up losses faster than even Jethro Bodines’ mathematical skills can keep up with. LOL.
Final Score : Purdue 82, Misery 61 …
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Worst part? I had the option of watching all of MU games; I don’t have the option of watching all of KU games. SUCKS!!!
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@JayHawkFanToo “Mindset” – exactly right. This is what will determine Mason’s fate. Because he ain’t gonna score like high school.
@jayhawk-007 – You certainly see the glass half full.
@Hawk8086 – I had a twitter exchange with Rustin Dodd. He thought the tutoring reference he thought Self was referring to guys that had started before, thus not Cliff. Sounds like maybe Traylor as you suggest.
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@HighEliteMajor funny, we all think differently on the late to tutoring!!
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Svi and the Freshman wall: when a 17 year old plays all summer on the international circuit then without break shows up for Bill Self’s boot camp, does a guy hit the Freshman wall in early October and are we watching him play through that while he finds his legs to drain game time three’s?
Svi arrives late to the team, and it seems that the team floor chemistry when the ball is not in play is lagging on the Svi love. Svi is making plays, he’s dialed into the flow. Where are the flying chest bumps and high fives, especially when he goes on a 10 point tare in 3 minutes to make believers into knowers through out Jayhawk nation. Svi gets the start and he makes it feel like he should be starting over this holiday weekend-maybe he swaps back and forth with Greene.
Why does the spell check on this site tell me that ‘Jayhawk’ is misspelled?
Svi is way ahead of Oubre in fitting into the team game. Svi is way ahead of most of the team in terms of playing organized ball. Ellis, Svi and Selden. Then Greene-for his length, confidence, scoring, energy and slowly that experience from being in the program. After watching last nights game I see why Graham’s point guard skills are key for this team. Alexander will arrive and Alexander will deliver. Traylor will be better in his role this year than last year. Lucas takes Black’s role in pairing with Traylor to be a solid and dangerous frontcourt bench. Mason fits into the rotation much better now than Oubre.
How does KU not play 10 this year?
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@KJD I think we have 10 in rotation too, some match ups will require different guys. Foul trouble, cold shooting, bad D will keep them out.
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This post is deleted!
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@JayHawkFanToo I don’t think we played badly the 2nd half per se- I think it’s more of a “we have this one in the bag, let’s coast”. I don’t think the lead ever dropped below 25 points, so young team laying the whup to a team by 30 at half goes through the motions the 2nd half. I wouldn’t read anything into the 2nd half.
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Thanks. I have been wandering what caused the let down, and since I cannot watch the game, I depend on the kindness of fellow Jayhawk fans.
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@JayHawkFanToo I was puzzled (actually disgusted) with our second half production fall-off in the Rider contest. In retrospect, I think Bill Self chose to let it happen. He was bent on heading toward the Thanksgiving tournament w/o the chest thumping which Jayhawks demonstrated after last season’s Duke game. If he had left Alexander in the game, we would not have lost the second half to Rider. Self chose to discipline his new player(s) rather than to allow them to run AAU Rampant.
