The Only Question Was "Who"
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@drgnslayr IMO, CF and Craft are as different as night and day. Craft’s strength was being a tough-nose defender, fearless almost dirty. He had great handles. His weakness- shooting.
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Craft plays like Conner needed to if he was going to expect PT. I think the biggest difference was CF is a perimeter shooter, not so much a PG, and Craft was not a shooter, a definite PG.
The point was the scrappy play of Craft, and he represents what CF will have to do to compensate for his weakness. No one questioned Craft’s ability to play d… he’s all-d in the B10! He’s a guy who understands x-axis and that 96% of the game is played in an area where he can dominate.
Few know CF better than me. I’ve watched him since he was a tike. He has the ability to scrap every bit the same as Craft. He just needs his body to catch up to his mind. A perfect situation for Hudy!
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@JayHawkFanToo Last month, I let my wife make a major life decision.
We buy a snowblower or we move to Texas.
The snowblower looks very nice in my garage.
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@Crimsonorblue22 lol - for once I was being serious. They were very similar in my mind. How would you describe the differences? Besides the fact that Boschee actually got to play major minutes.
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@nuleafjhawk Boschee was a “player”. So far, CF was a poor shooter.
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Big differences between Boschee/Haase and Frankamp.
Boschee was a MC Donald’s All-American and stared all 4 year for Roy Williams not Coach Self (different systems) and in his first year he was selected Conference Freshman of the Year. A little taller at 6’-1"" but a lot bigger at 210 lbs. so he could hold his ground better on defense. He shot 0.356 from the 3 in his first year and has a career of 0.401 including 0.464 in his senior year.
Haase transferred from California and in his sophomore year he was select Conference Newcomer of the year, Second Team All-Conference, Conference All-defensive team and led KU in scoring. He started 99 of 101 games at KU and in his senior year he was a Wooden and Naismith award finalist. He was named a co-captain of the 1996-1997 team and was on the starting lineup with Jacque Vaughn, Scot Pollard, Raef LaFrentz and Paul Pierce, quite a line up for a team that many consider the best KU team of all time. Haase was also taller at 6’-3 and bigger at 195 lbs. He had a career 0.338 from 3 points so he was by no means a 3-point specialist, he was however a dogged defender and would have thrived on Coach Self’s system; the title of hi autobiography is aptly named Floor Burns - Inside the life of a Kansas Jayhawk.
Both Boschee and Haase had an immediate impact at KU and were starters from the beginning, while Frankamp was not. Like I mentioned before, in a different year with less talent Frankamp could have been a starter or a heavy contributor such as Conner Teahan or Kevin Young; however, he came at at time where he had superior competition and he could not separate himself from the field. Nothing beats being at the right place at the right time.
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I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. Craft and Frankamp are completely different players with opposite strengths and weaknesses.
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I have a 3 car garage and I can only fit one car inside and two stay in the driveway. I need to get rid of a lot of junk and make room for a snow blower. A couple of my neighbors have snow blowers which work fine for the lighter snow storms; when we have 18 inches the smaller units don’t really work all that well and the larger units are needed infrequently. I have a push sled that works amazingly well and can displace a lot of snow each pass…it is still a hard 2-3 hours of work though.
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@nuleafjhawk my neighbor got a new blower last year, lucky for me!!! They love “playing” w/it!
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@nuleafjhawk Tell her Texas wouldn’t have been a bad option either.
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@JayHawkFanToo You said, “Like I mentioned before, in a different year with less talent Frankamp could have been a starter or a heavy contributor such as Conner Teahan or Kevin Young.”
And that’s really all it is. Opportunity. Guys like White and CF could have been stars, and could have even been big contributors as freshmen. The opportunity to play, get their legs under them, and get better under fire.
It’s where I get tired of folks who say, “Well. CF didn’t shoot well last season.”
But he got no real opportunity for consistent playing time. If Wiggins had a year long staph infection, and Greene separated his shoulder, where would AW3 be right now?
My bet is he’d be considered a core performer. Self has to determine the best players, but that doesn’t mean the next guy isn’t good, too.
Heck, Self said today that some guys don’t show well in practice, but when they get in the game, they do. This exactly why Self’s evaluations are not always spot on. Self doesn’t let guys get in and get comfortable. Self recognized in a press conference earlier that the comfort level is important to producing. Self admits that guys don’t always show their best in practice, and that in games, it’s hard to get comfortable when you get the quick hook — to me, that proves the point that we can’t make really any good evaluation of the guys that get the quick hook. Not until they get meaningful, uninterrupted playing time.
Thus is why CF (and hid dad) made a wise decision. You could be the 2nd best quarterback on the planet, but if you’re on the same team with the best quarterback, you get zero playing time.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Hmmm. I’ve never heard Conner described as a “poor shooter”. Now I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not.
If he was a poor shooter, it probably was because he was out of practice. It’s very hard to shoot a high percentage with your ass glued to the bench.
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@JayhawkRock78 I lived in Austin for a year in my youth. My wife and I lived in Houston for almost 10 years after we got married. I have a lot of love for the state of Texas. (not the sports teams though! lol)
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@nuleafjhawk he had the worst 3 pt shooting % on the team last year.
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@nuleafjhawk Moving to Texas was a very good move for us.
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Close…Embiid was worse at 1-5 for 0.200…
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I would simply add to everyone’s points above…We all have seen and cussed/discussed WildBill’s quick hooks. Then there’s Bill’s opposite supastar rules, I used to call it the RushRules, where you play early, often, and hardly ever get yanked. Recall Bobby Knight basically going off about poor play from Sherron, saying he’d “sit him down”, but no quick yank from Bill on senior Sherron. Live & die with the horse that brought ya, and maybe that’s another way that Self rides the percentages? Most nights I’d bet on Sherron too.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Here’s the deal. I think we all know that on paper, we can make statistics say whatever we want them to say.
Perry Ellis was the leading 3 pt shooter last season. .471. You want Perry bombing from downtown all day long? Nor do I.
Frankamp has the ability to push that number close to 45% consistently - IF he gets enough playing time to stay sharp. Of course he was a lousy shooter last year, he only averaged 8 minutes a game and many games he saw way less than that.
If you were just looking at paper, you could say Conner should have started instead of Andrew Wiggins - look at the turnover ratio. CF had 3 - THREE turnovers. An avg of .111
Andrew Wiggins had 80 turnovers. An avg of 2.286.
That’s why stat’s aren’t the only thing to consider.I’m not Bill Self. He probably knows what’s best. But it’s hard for me to fathom not playing a guy like CF who is deadly from beyond the arc and the foul line, and doesn’t commit a lot of stupid turnovers.
I’ll be willing to bet his next coach doesn’t make the same mistake.
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@Crimsonorblue22 You know that CF was not the worst three point shooter on this team – you correctly cite the percentages, but you know the percentages in this case aren’t a fair indicatory. The sample size was too small, and the nature of the sample skews the reliability.
Self has admitted that he knows that his handling of shooters hurts their productivity.
But Self simply values the three point shot less than many of us do. That’s all. He can’t stomach what he sees as other deficiencies when compared to draining 4 of 6 threes. It’s just the weight or importance he places on it.
@nuleafjhawk My bet is CF goes to a school that values his greatest attribute.
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@nuleafjhawk when CF was in and not hitting, his defense killed us. That’s why coach said he needs to be a player not just a shooter. He was a very “safe” pt guard. Coach likes his pt or combos, to create.
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@HighEliteMajor “But Self simply values the three point shot less than many of us do.”
You’re right. He may want to reconsider. I know he’s in love with the high-lo, but most of the time, when I do the math 3 > 2.
How many games have we lost by being outgunned? Several.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I know that is a popular theory, but how do you prove it? I don’t remember thinking he was a pushover on defense. Shorter than most maybe - but not afraid to step in front of someone and take a charge.
The other thing is, as stated above, he did NOT turn the ball over. Almost ever. He was smart and he was a very good free throw shooter.
Hopefully after tonight we won’t be talking about him, but I just think he got a bit of a raw deal. I’m trying to put myself in his position. I’m a very competitive person and if I thought I had more to offer on the court than on the bench, I’d want to go elsewhere too.
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Regarding Aaron Craft, a 6’1-6’2 sized kid who was a fighter…I’d say our best chance at an Aaron Craft was Tyrel Reed–& I think Reed had a bit more athleticism & talent than Craft, and had a ton of heart as a jayhawk. And I dont question Craft’s heart either. But as we saw, Mr. Craft was outclassed, outplayed, and defeated (deep in March) by Mr.Taylor+Mr.Johnson. In those games, for reasons Im not sure (maybe just high stakes Madness), I was rooting sooo hard against Craft, not just rooting “for” KU. Maybe it was because of all that nauseating press that was all about Craft. Well, I just wanted the world to see that Bill’s Boys were better, just as much of fight & heart, and beat Craft head2head, even wanted Craft to have an awful outing. And we did. Similar to how I felt after yrs of Hummel-hype. Kind of how KC made Tom Brady look awful. And deep down, I think RussRob would eat Craft’s lunch, then steal the empty lunchbox back…Just like when former big10 coach Self is able to out-tough a B1G team, especially since Izzo has our number. And TRob did outplay his buddy Sullinger, just as Self outcoached Matta in those games.
Classic battles. Thanks to my kubuckets buddies for allowing me to vent about TheOhioSt…
RCJH
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@ralster I think it’s terrible to single out Craft.
You should take out your wrath on ALL Buckeyes (isn’t that an acorn?) everywhere.
I have so much contempt for them that I don’t like anyone from Ohio, anyone that wears any combination of red/silver/gray and white or anyone who has ever driven through or flown over the state of Ohio. Blah.
They are extremely close on my hate register to Mizzou, Hitler and Ebola.
But I mean that in the nicest possible way.
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Here’s a better comparison to CF: Brannen Greene. At work now dont recall his 3% last season, but he got just as scarce mpg (it seems) as CF did, but Greene seemed to connect on 3s alot better than CF. And both were coming in cold off the bench. And Greene got quick yanks too. So if anyone can comparo Greene’s mpg & 3% then we’d be enlightened.
Additional corrollary to this cold3%shooting, is it reveals a player who is efficient of mechanics, to the point it can hit off the bench. Recall frosh Teahan, frosh Sherron were straight up money(!) from 3land off the bench. CF, methinks, is a volume shooter.
And we are really only discussing CF at all because of 3 made-3’s in a lost game. My hopes for him died with each and every 3 miss all season long, just as my hope for Greene rose with each made-3 all season long.
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Haha, nuleaf, yes you are correct!
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@ralster said:
Here’s a better comparison to CF: Brannen Greene. At work now dont recall his 3% last season, but he got just as scarce mpg (it seems) as CF did, but Greene seemed to connect on 3s alot better than CF. And both were coming in cold off the bench. And Greene got quick yanks too. So if anyone can comparo Greene’s mpg & 3% then we’d be enlightened.
Additional corrollary to this cold3%shooting, is it reveals a player who is efficient of mechanics, to the point it can hit off the bench. Recall frosh Teahan, frosh Sherron were straight up money(!) from 3land off the bench. CF, methinks, is a volume shooter.
And we are really only discussing CF at all because of 3 made-3’s in a lost game. My hopes for him died with each and every 3 miss all season long, just as my hope for Greene rose with each made-3 all season long.
Greene played 2 minutes less per game and hit 0.02% better from 3. BG also had a better FG% and FT%. He did average 0.5 to’s to CF’s 0.1 to’s.
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@nuleafjhawk yikes, rough crowd (I’ve flown and driven in Ohio)
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Thanks for the assist on the stats, Kip! Hmm, not that much of a discrepancy…maybe my recollection was flawed. CF did protect the ball very well, while Greene was a bit careless, no doubt. Or, 3 made 3’s in the final game boosted CFs % because both he and Greene dont have a big sample size of total 3att’s? Good discussion. Obviously Self is looking at every aspect, not just 3%.
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@JayhawkRock78 …sigh…well, I used to like you. lol
OK - sometimes I get a tad carried away.
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“I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. Craft and Frankamp are completely different players with opposite strengths and weaknesses.”
I think I goofed my communique… I realize the difference between these two players. I just feel CF needed to get the same scrappy side as Craft. CF and Craft have different skill sets, and CF only weighed 165 lbs soaking wet. But he has the capacity and potential attitude to become a scrappy player. That was a way in which CF could have earned big minutes in a Jayhawk uniform.
BTW: great to see some brisk conversation in here again! I guess everyone is getting psyched for the season to roll in!
@nuleafjhawk - You do get carried away sometimes… that’s what I like about you! Keep it up, bud!
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@nuleafjhawk I beg to differ, you did not get carried away. @JayhawkRock78 should be shunned and banned from here like the French!
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ouch…
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@HighEliteMajor I’m glad Coach Self realized he was pressuring his shooters. I don’t think Roy ever admitted he did the same thing.
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@nuleafjhawk first I like CF. I’ve said this before, I think it was Baylor game, CF fouled a 3 pt shooter then fouled a 2 pt shooter, 7 pts, back to back possessions. He got the hook. He’s a great kid that has broken records, but if he’s not hitting, it hurts to have him out there. Maybe he’s better this year, I don’t know???
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@nuleafjhawk our family can’t stand them either!! Didn’t you take an ohio state fan to our game when we played them?
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@JayHawkFanToo Think back about that team with Jacque Vaughn, Scot Pollard, Raef LaFrentz, Paul Pierce and Boschee, how many here would’ve bet the house on them winning a NC? Who knows, someone here may have.
@Crimsonorblue22 What’s a snowblower? I also have a 3 car garage that I can only get my wife’s car in. One stall has a garden tractor and a zero turn mower, and the other is full of power tools. But nothing called a snowblower.
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@brooksmd no boat?
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@Crimsonorblue22 You mean that hole in the water you throw money into? Nope.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yes, several years ago. Thank goodness we won. I would have walked the three hours home…
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I have stated several times that a National Championship requires a lot of luck and by no means the best team wins. The '88 team got lucky and won the tournament but by no means was the best team that year. On the other hand, there were several KU teams including the on that we are talking about, that was head and shoulders above the others but one poor game cost them the title. This is one of the reason why I value regular season conference titles since they represent continuous excellence throughout the season and not a lucky run.
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You enjoy a boat two days, the day you buy it and the day you sell it.
Boats, much like swimming pools, are things that your friends end up enjoying more than you do; they enjoy them…a lot…and go home. You on the other hand have to maintain them, repair them, buy supplies, insurance…oh well. I have had both and I don’t believe I would again.
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I am not surprised that Frankamp transferred. He was always a guy that wanted to play at KU moreso than a guy that could absolutely play at KU.
That’s not a knock on Conner, because there aren’t many guys out there that could even get recruited to play at KU. But the tough thing is, being recruited to play at KU and being able to play at KU are two completely different things.
Remember Quintrell Thomas? He was kind of like Jamari Traylor. Maybe not quite as athletic, but a very similar player. He stayed one year, then went to UNLV and was a productive backup player for three years there. He likely never would have played had he remained at KU. I can’t begrudge him for counting the minutes and realizing he would always be the odd man out at Kansas.
Conner was in much the same situation. I think he should seriously consider heading home to Wichita and playing for the Shockers. His size and skills would play very well in the Valley, where I think he could play 20+ mpg on a good team.
Either way, best of luck to Conner. Sometimes, the situation just isn’t working, and there is nothing wrong with moving on from that.
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@JayHawkFanToo A “lucky run”? Yikes … tournaments are how real champions are decided at every level. So you value the AFC West title more for the Chiefs than a “lucky” Super Bowl run? Or if the Royals won the division, that being more valuable than a “lucky” World Series run?
“Luck” is involved in everything. In MLB, the Royals missed out on winning the division by a couple of games. So some weird bounce in a game in May, and a bad call in a game in June decided that fate then. 162 games came down to the last few games. That’s no different than a tournament. Then the teams that won during the regular season didn’t pan out in the playoffs. So the Royals dominant run was “lucky?”
I think it’s way too dismissive to suggest that, for example, UConn’s run was “lucky.”
Regardless, it is how true champions are crowned, and it’s how they always have been.
Sorry, not trying to start this debate again. The Royals run just added to it for me.
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…and this is exactly why every major sport not called football plays elimination series (playoffs) and not single elimination.
You don’t think KU had a lucky run in '88? Do you honestly think it was the best team that year? I am as big a KU fans as they come and I freely admit that KU was not the best team in '88 and if that tournament is played another 99 times, KU likely does not win it again. FWIW, several simulation ran afterwards verified this much after the fact. You don’t think KU had a “little luck” in their win in the Championship game in '08? What do you think that the outcome would be in '08 if KU plays Memphis in a best of 3 series?
You don’t think UConn was lucky last season? Going into the tournament they were not even ranked in the top 20 and there is no way you can say that they were the best team last year; KU with a healthy Embiid beats them 8 out of 10 times. They lost 2 times to SMU and Louisville and also to Houston and yes, Stanford among others. At the Tournament, they barely beat a #10 St. Joseph in OT and if not for the Niang injury they don’t get past Iowa State…I call this luck. What do you think the outcome would have been had Embiid been 100% for the Tournament? Final Four? KU’s bad luck was Stanford’s good luck.
On the other hand, KU has had a few teams that in a “best of X” format would have won the title on more than one occasion.
As far as the Royals, in their single elimination game against Oakland, you don’t think there was a “little luck” in the 9-8 win in 12 innings? On the other hand, their wins in the series were not based on one game, and the other teams had several chances to catch up. There is no luck involved when you sweep your opponents 3-0 and 4-0. If it would be single elimination in the World Series, San Francisco would have won after the first game that they won 7-1, but KC had a chance to come back and go down to the last play of the 7th game on a best of 7 series; evenly matched teams with one player (Bumgarner) being the difference.
Look at the major sports:
Basketball (NBA) - best of 5 and best of 7 series
Baseball - best of 5 and best of 7 series
Hockey - best of 7 series
Soccer (MLS) - Home and away with aggregate goal tie breaker
Soccer (world Cup) - Elimination Series and only semifinals and finals are single elimination
Tennis - Best of 5 sets
Golf- Aggregate score of 4 rounds played on 4 different days.
Football - Only sport with single elimination due to logistics. Cannot play more that once a week and series would take forever.
I am not saying that going to playoffs/series in college basketball or any other sport eliminates luck, but it would certainly makes it a whole lot less relevant than it is now
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@JayHawkFanToo Detail: Soccer World Cup there are 32 teams. After the pools, there are 16 teams that play single elimination. So there are 4 rounds of single elimination, not just 2.
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@HighEliteMajor I think there’s a big difference between a single elimination tournament and a multi-game playoff system. The longer a series goes, the more you can mitigate statistical noise (what we usually deem as “luck” ), and thus, the more likely the best team is to emerge the victor. Obviously no system can eliminate luck completely (nor would I want one that did), but it’d be foolish to think that the NCAA tournament is really a great indicator of who the best team is in any given year. That said, the matter of luck and the way the tournament format emphasizes it is what makes March Madness March Madness. It also makes those years when you do break through all the more precious. Basketball is also a lot more like baseball than football in that the affects that any given individual player exerts on the whole team are much, much greater in forming a particular outcome, and thus, one bad game by a couple of key players is way more likely to torpedo the whole effort (although, of course, QBs have a massively disproportionate affect in football, most other positions can be covered for in one way or another).
So I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying in 2014 in particular, UConn was more lucky than good (and UK too, for that matter). I would say the same thing about Zona in 97, KU in 88, or NC State in 83. That’s not to say there aren’t plenty of years where the best team dominates the dance (Florida in 06 and 07, UNC 09, UK 12), nor that there aren’t a lot of worthy teams that get there too (UConn 11, Cuse 03). But as often as 1 seeds win the whole damn thing (a stat you’re very fond of pointing out), it’s actually fairly rare that they’re playing fellow 1s for the title.
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I get the logic, and get the series stuff.
But this isn’t about who is the “best team.” It is about who is a “champion.” Best teams aren’t always champions, under any format.
Best 4 of 7 doesn’t account for a hot team either. We’ve seen that too many times to count.
It is funny how so many top programs somehow get lucky and win the NCAA tourney, isn’t it? Duke, NC, KU, UConn, Kentucky, etc.
But there is no escaping the logic the two of you have suggested here. I just can’t stand the inference that KU has an excuse for failing so many times to win 6 games in March. Just win the damn thing.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’ve heard that said before (about boats). I guess it depends on the individual. I LOVE my boat. I get it ready to hit the water in late March or early April, weather permitting and use it every chance I get until late November or early December. The kids still enjoy tubing and skiing (my bones aren’t wild about either one anymore) and the wife and I fish as much as we possibly can.
I had an 18’ above ground pool one time that we enjoyed for 3 or 4 years, but it WAS a lot of maintenance and don’t think I’d do the pool thing again. I’ll just swim at the lake from my boat!
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I am not much of a swimmer and I can sunbathe every bit a swell on my deck and the pool maintenance is a killer. I did enjoy the boat but got tired of doing all the work and having everybody else enjoy it without the responsibility. I am now perfectly happy to be a guest on somebody else’s boat without any responsibility other than bringing drinks.
I am happy that you get to enjoy your boat.
