The Only Question Was "Who"
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@Kip_McSmithers I guess what I mean is that Mason, Graham, Svi would be the three guys handling the 1 and 2 spots. If Brown came in, given history, Brown plays over Greene as you mentioned. That makes Greene the #5 guy. Why stay to be the #5 guy again?
For that matter, if Oubre stays, same thing. I agree. Dorsey wouldn’t be ahead of Greene, but Dorsey is more of a ball handler type. A true two guard, with PG aspirations. Greene more of a 3, who could play the 2 with ok ball handling. So Dorsey would fill a different role. Dorsey could be sold on the idea of getting the 2 spot his sophomore season, after Svi presumably leaves.
But I want to see this play out … heck, Greene could explode this season. I’d love to see it.
@KansasComet Maybe just a 6’8" Conner Frankamp?
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Frankamp scored at will on Svi in the scrimmage
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@DanR I don’t know about that. I only watched it once. But I recall one blow by and that was it – the one where CF made a tough layup. Svi got a lot of shots, just didn’t go in. Don’t recall how many were vs. CF.
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@HighEliteMajor That must be the case. The only thing that makes sense.
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@HighEliteMajor We’ve talked about this countless times thru the years. Is the reality every year & effects recruiting positively & negatively each year going forward. While many of us don’t like the OAD/blue chip mindset of 21st century CBB, we just have to see it as it is until the rules of eligibility are altered when kids are trying to earn PT. The bottom line is “What have you done for me lately?” Unfortunately for the kids that only get one crack to make their mark, if not enough then have a seat or hit the road. Personally I just do not like this mindset-guess I’m just too old school. Our loss will be someone else’s big gain.
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@globaljaybird Question for all to consider – Does anyone think that we could not have won a national title with CF starting at the 2 and Andrew White at the 3?
Maybe I’m in the small minority here, but I think we could have. I think both players have tremendous talent. I think both could have been major contributors in their sophomore seasons.
We lament the OAD dilemmas. And I can’t stand it.
What if? What if no Wiggins, no Oubre, no Graham? Selden turned pro. Assume we have White starting at the 3, CF at the 2, with Greene the first perimeter guy off the bench. Are you any less encouraged about our NC possibilities? Not me. But am I delusional?
As it is now, we’re hoping Oubre develops, learns our system – becomes ready this season. Same with Graham. We’re hoping. We saw White last season. He was ready. CF proved he is ready. Self complains every season about being “young”, but he has asked for it. He chose Graham over CF. He chose Oubre over White. We’re young because he wants young. Don’t complain about it, or use it as an excuse, anymore.
I saw a tremendous comment by a poster at kusports.com – he said that KU has gone from developing players, to replacing them on an annual basis.
This is exactly right.
I know every player on our roster isn’t an OAD. I know there are players in the gray area – “maybe” OADs. But look at the impact. In my post above, I mentioned that OADs weren’t direct cause of CF leaving, but suggested an indirect connection.
Upon reflection, I think it’s bigger than that. It’s not just OADs, but it’s getting recruited over. It’s the lack of loyalty and the lack of commitment by Self to guys on our roster. But we want that, right? We want the best players, and better players, right? The complication here is that with the highly ranked guys and OADs, they aren’t coming if they don’t play. That throws off the entire “competition” thing. But did Wiggins deserve to start? Sure. Embiid? Yep.
But that’s not the point. Both are gone. We go from Embiid, to Alexander, to the next OAD. Or we recruit a 3-4 year guy that holds that scholarship. The Karviar Shepherd question.
This is confusing. It’s a dilemma. But I feel like we’re in the twilight zone. A perpetual limbo. Not knowing what the “core” of our program is. It is an uneasy feeling. Heck, we have no commits right now in the first part of November. None. When is the last time that occurred? This is some objective evidence of our state of limbo.
The CF transfer brings those feelings to the surface. As I’ve thought about this, it sickens me really. Maybe it’s because we have lost a sure 4 year player. Maybe it’s because I think Self destroyed his spirit a bit. Maybe it’s because I think Self mismanages shooters. Maybe I don’t know what the he** I’m talking about. I don’t know. And I don’t know the answer.
What I do know is that time is the only thing that will give us the answer. We won a national title with “developed” players. We have not won a national title with OADs and a “young” team yet.
I balance this against the trust of coach Self to pick the best talent for his team, and to jettison, either forcefully (Tharpe) or as a result of recruiting (White) or as a result of competition (CF).
I just enjoyed getting to know players, counting on their development, seeing their improvement, and watching them go through the program. To a large extent, that’s ending.
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“I just enjoyed getting to know players, counting on their development, seeing their improvement, and watching them go through the program. To a large extent, that’s ending.”
Not likely anyone could have summed up a post to define our programs present & future any better. Willing to wager that about 75% of rats on this site lament your feelings exactly the same. And I’m damn sure one of them.
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The truth is that none of us knows what happens behind close doors. Coach Self knows every little details of what happens with the team and every individual player down to the minutia. All we can do is speculate and wait until the next version of “Beyond the Phog” comes out and we get the players and coaches perspective after the fact.
We live in a very dynamic world where things are in a constant state of flux. The OAD phenomenon is here to stay until the next trend comes along; we don’t have to like it and I am sure that all coaches not named Calipari hate it as well, but unfortunately, it is the reality we live in and coaches have to learn to adapt and live with it or be left behind.
I really hate to see Frankamp leave. He along with Perry are clean cut, homegrown kids, good students, capable players and good teammates…in other words the textbook definition of “student-athlete” but in the current environment that apparently is no longer good enough. I am old fashioned and in my opinion this is not a good development; it is not good for the student-athletes, not good for the coaches, not good for the programs and not good for the sport at large, but as long as we have the Caliparis of the sport, the we are in a de-facto arms race and it is sink or swim and survival of the fittest, all rolled up in neat sports apparel package.
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@HighEliteMajor I am totally with you that part of the fun of watching KU basketball (college ball in general) is seeing players develop over the years and go from the bench, to a contributor, to a star. We have been blessed to see this from Releford, Withey, EJ, Tyshawn, Morris Twins, TRob, etc. But I also agree that it is a conundrum. Can Self simply quit recruiting guys who are highly ranked? I don’t think so. You play with the guys you have an you hope that they are the best players possible. The two best teams under Self (2008 and 2011 in my opinion) were packed with highly ranked high school recruits who just happened to stay around for 2-3 years. Chalmers, Rush, Collins, Shady, Morris Twins, T Rob. These guys were all very high recruits. Some of them even top 10 guys coming out of high school. I think these two teams were the perfect storm and it is what we have to hope for. Highly ranked guys with insane talent who take a year or two to develop and don’t jump to the NBA right away. This is really what I was assuming Joel was going to be. A guy that by his sophomore or junior year would be great…not the #3 pick in the draft after 1 season. I am 100% convinced that is what we need. Guys like Greene, Oubre, Alexander, Ellis, Selden to all stay past year one. The OAD thing is tough to watch and UK has proved that it can be feast or famine. They are going to be great this year but if all 10 guys leave for the NBA it is going to be a tough year next year such as the NIT trip not so long ago.
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What I looked forward to most this season:
1… Ellis making the sophmore to junior jump like the Morrii and TRob made
2… Jamari playing like (6-10) another two inches over his actual height
3… Frankamp nailing a few late game soul-crushing daggers from three against Texas and ISU.
4… Selden playing at 100%
5… Mason and Greene playing under control
6… Michelson blocking shots, running the floor and giving interviews (sharp guy)
7… Lucas being a solid oak tree when guys get in foul trouble
8 - 99… Other stuff (e.g., eating popcorn at AFH, watching Georges Niang get called for flopping, shoveling snow, getting diarrhea during my February trip to Mexico, etc )
100… Inexperienced freshmen
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I can help you with shoveling snow part. You can do my driveway; I shoveled close to 70 cubic yards when we had that 18" storm a winter ago. I believe this officially qualifies you as a Bobcat front end loader.
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Great post, HEM. Ive posted a few times myself your exact question: “why’d Self recruit CF to KS?” Unless CF turned out to be a quick penetrating 6ft guy like A. Miles as a PG…but we see that wasnt CF. CF lives for his own shot. Without that offensive production, CF is nothing. Definitely not glue guy.
One parallel type player could be Jeff Hawkins, a 6ft wafer mid mad-game in practice, who his own teammates voted as the best player on the team…but he couldnt get any real mpg. Naadir only played out of necessity, & Self still chose dysfunctional Naa over greenFrankamp because Naa’s 3gun wasnt broke like CF’s was last year (worst 3% for the season). And Self picked Mason for mpg over CF because CF’s skillset and scoring mentality were NOT PG material. Mason was a penetrating 190# dynamo, like a Tyshawn with a marginal 3%. CF was definitely not a slasher. Mason beat Duke the old fashioned way. CF couldnt beat Stanford. And he was trying the Hoiberg way (3’s), not the Self way. Self =who he is, and CF =who he is. Bad match, didnt work. Im ok with it, as it never made sense his being here. As you once so deftly put it regarding certain recruits: insurance for recruiting misses. CF got edged out by recruiting ‘hits’.
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Can’t sleep…oh well…I can catch up on some EXCELLENT kubuckets reading!
Love this thread. Hate to lose CF. But VERY well stated above everyone.
Question, in this new world we live in (post 2012 title game) would Jeff Boschee be given a chance? Jerod Haase?
Is HCRW doing the same thing at UNC?
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@VailHawk There were a lot of similarities between Boschee and CF.
Yep - Boschee would have been toast on this team.
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@VailHawk I think Self would love those guys, ex. Travis. IMO Conner’s defense held him back, more than anything. I think that’s what Self meant when he said that about being a “player” rather than just a shooter.
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@nuleafjhawk I can’t tell if you are being truthful or sarcastic?? Big difference in those 2!
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“IMO Conner’s defense held him back, more than anything.”
I think we all thought that last year… and he clearly couldn’t defend well enough in D1. But the word was out that he worked hard on his d over the summer and was vastly improved. That fed into people like me that Conner would definitely earn plenty of floor time this year. That matched my opinion of CF; he is a guy who will find a way to contribute.
I really thought CF would become another Aaron Craft. Maybe not this year… but by his junior year he would become a big factor and a huge factor by his senior year. The focus was off his volume scoring, and became more about his will and attitude, and projecting that on the floor, also to inspire his teammates.
That as the Conner Frankamp I felt like we lost on Friday.
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@drgnslayr IMO, CF and Craft are as different as night and day. Craft’s strength was being a tough-nose defender, fearless almost dirty. He had great handles. His weakness- shooting.
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Craft plays like Conner needed to if he was going to expect PT. I think the biggest difference was CF is a perimeter shooter, not so much a PG, and Craft was not a shooter, a definite PG.
The point was the scrappy play of Craft, and he represents what CF will have to do to compensate for his weakness. No one questioned Craft’s ability to play d… he’s all-d in the B10! He’s a guy who understands x-axis and that 96% of the game is played in an area where he can dominate.
Few know CF better than me. I’ve watched him since he was a tike. He has the ability to scrap every bit the same as Craft. He just needs his body to catch up to his mind. A perfect situation for Hudy!
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@JayHawkFanToo Last month, I let my wife make a major life decision.
We buy a snowblower or we move to Texas.
The snowblower looks very nice in my garage.
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@Crimsonorblue22 lol - for once I was being serious. They were very similar in my mind. How would you describe the differences? Besides the fact that Boschee actually got to play major minutes.
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@nuleafjhawk Boschee was a “player”. So far, CF was a poor shooter.
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Big differences between Boschee/Haase and Frankamp.
Boschee was a MC Donald’s All-American and stared all 4 year for Roy Williams not Coach Self (different systems) and in his first year he was selected Conference Freshman of the Year. A little taller at 6’-1"" but a lot bigger at 210 lbs. so he could hold his ground better on defense. He shot 0.356 from the 3 in his first year and has a career of 0.401 including 0.464 in his senior year.
Haase transferred from California and in his sophomore year he was select Conference Newcomer of the year, Second Team All-Conference, Conference All-defensive team and led KU in scoring. He started 99 of 101 games at KU and in his senior year he was a Wooden and Naismith award finalist. He was named a co-captain of the 1996-1997 team and was on the starting lineup with Jacque Vaughn, Scot Pollard, Raef LaFrentz and Paul Pierce, quite a line up for a team that many consider the best KU team of all time. Haase was also taller at 6’-3 and bigger at 195 lbs. He had a career 0.338 from 3 points so he was by no means a 3-point specialist, he was however a dogged defender and would have thrived on Coach Self’s system; the title of hi autobiography is aptly named Floor Burns - Inside the life of a Kansas Jayhawk.
Both Boschee and Haase had an immediate impact at KU and were starters from the beginning, while Frankamp was not. Like I mentioned before, in a different year with less talent Frankamp could have been a starter or a heavy contributor such as Conner Teahan or Kevin Young; however, he came at at time where he had superior competition and he could not separate himself from the field. Nothing beats being at the right place at the right time.
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I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. Craft and Frankamp are completely different players with opposite strengths and weaknesses.
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I have a 3 car garage and I can only fit one car inside and two stay in the driveway. I need to get rid of a lot of junk and make room for a snow blower. A couple of my neighbors have snow blowers which work fine for the lighter snow storms; when we have 18 inches the smaller units don’t really work all that well and the larger units are needed infrequently. I have a push sled that works amazingly well and can displace a lot of snow each pass…it is still a hard 2-3 hours of work though.
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@nuleafjhawk my neighbor got a new blower last year, lucky for me!!! They love “playing” w/it!
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@nuleafjhawk Tell her Texas wouldn’t have been a bad option either.
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@JayHawkFanToo You said, “Like I mentioned before, in a different year with less talent Frankamp could have been a starter or a heavy contributor such as Conner Teahan or Kevin Young.”
And that’s really all it is. Opportunity. Guys like White and CF could have been stars, and could have even been big contributors as freshmen. The opportunity to play, get their legs under them, and get better under fire.
It’s where I get tired of folks who say, “Well. CF didn’t shoot well last season.”
But he got no real opportunity for consistent playing time. If Wiggins had a year long staph infection, and Greene separated his shoulder, where would AW3 be right now?
My bet is he’d be considered a core performer. Self has to determine the best players, but that doesn’t mean the next guy isn’t good, too.
Heck, Self said today that some guys don’t show well in practice, but when they get in the game, they do. This exactly why Self’s evaluations are not always spot on. Self doesn’t let guys get in and get comfortable. Self recognized in a press conference earlier that the comfort level is important to producing. Self admits that guys don’t always show their best in practice, and that in games, it’s hard to get comfortable when you get the quick hook — to me, that proves the point that we can’t make really any good evaluation of the guys that get the quick hook. Not until they get meaningful, uninterrupted playing time.
Thus is why CF (and hid dad) made a wise decision. You could be the 2nd best quarterback on the planet, but if you’re on the same team with the best quarterback, you get zero playing time.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Hmmm. I’ve never heard Conner described as a “poor shooter”. Now I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not.
If he was a poor shooter, it probably was because he was out of practice. It’s very hard to shoot a high percentage with your ass glued to the bench.
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@JayhawkRock78 I lived in Austin for a year in my youth. My wife and I lived in Houston for almost 10 years after we got married. I have a lot of love for the state of Texas. (not the sports teams though! lol)
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@nuleafjhawk he had the worst 3 pt shooting % on the team last year.
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@nuleafjhawk Moving to Texas was a very good move for us.
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Close…Embiid was worse at 1-5 for 0.200…
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I would simply add to everyone’s points above…We all have seen and cussed/discussed WildBill’s quick hooks. Then there’s Bill’s opposite supastar rules, I used to call it the RushRules, where you play early, often, and hardly ever get yanked. Recall Bobby Knight basically going off about poor play from Sherron, saying he’d “sit him down”, but no quick yank from Bill on senior Sherron. Live & die with the horse that brought ya, and maybe that’s another way that Self rides the percentages? Most nights I’d bet on Sherron too.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Here’s the deal. I think we all know that on paper, we can make statistics say whatever we want them to say.
Perry Ellis was the leading 3 pt shooter last season. .471. You want Perry bombing from downtown all day long? Nor do I.
Frankamp has the ability to push that number close to 45% consistently - IF he gets enough playing time to stay sharp. Of course he was a lousy shooter last year, he only averaged 8 minutes a game and many games he saw way less than that.
If you were just looking at paper, you could say Conner should have started instead of Andrew Wiggins - look at the turnover ratio. CF had 3 - THREE turnovers. An avg of .111
Andrew Wiggins had 80 turnovers. An avg of 2.286.
That’s why stat’s aren’t the only thing to consider.I’m not Bill Self. He probably knows what’s best. But it’s hard for me to fathom not playing a guy like CF who is deadly from beyond the arc and the foul line, and doesn’t commit a lot of stupid turnovers.
I’ll be willing to bet his next coach doesn’t make the same mistake.
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@Crimsonorblue22 You know that CF was not the worst three point shooter on this team – you correctly cite the percentages, but you know the percentages in this case aren’t a fair indicatory. The sample size was too small, and the nature of the sample skews the reliability.
Self has admitted that he knows that his handling of shooters hurts their productivity.
But Self simply values the three point shot less than many of us do. That’s all. He can’t stomach what he sees as other deficiencies when compared to draining 4 of 6 threes. It’s just the weight or importance he places on it.
@nuleafjhawk My bet is CF goes to a school that values his greatest attribute.
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@nuleafjhawk when CF was in and not hitting, his defense killed us. That’s why coach said he needs to be a player not just a shooter. He was a very “safe” pt guard. Coach likes his pt or combos, to create.
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@HighEliteMajor “But Self simply values the three point shot less than many of us do.”
You’re right. He may want to reconsider. I know he’s in love with the high-lo, but most of the time, when I do the math 3 > 2.
How many games have we lost by being outgunned? Several.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I know that is a popular theory, but how do you prove it? I don’t remember thinking he was a pushover on defense. Shorter than most maybe - but not afraid to step in front of someone and take a charge.
The other thing is, as stated above, he did NOT turn the ball over. Almost ever. He was smart and he was a very good free throw shooter.
Hopefully after tonight we won’t be talking about him, but I just think he got a bit of a raw deal. I’m trying to put myself in his position. I’m a very competitive person and if I thought I had more to offer on the court than on the bench, I’d want to go elsewhere too.
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Regarding Aaron Craft, a 6’1-6’2 sized kid who was a fighter…I’d say our best chance at an Aaron Craft was Tyrel Reed–& I think Reed had a bit more athleticism & talent than Craft, and had a ton of heart as a jayhawk. And I dont question Craft’s heart either. But as we saw, Mr. Craft was outclassed, outplayed, and defeated (deep in March) by Mr.Taylor+Mr.Johnson. In those games, for reasons Im not sure (maybe just high stakes Madness), I was rooting sooo hard against Craft, not just rooting “for” KU. Maybe it was because of all that nauseating press that was all about Craft. Well, I just wanted the world to see that Bill’s Boys were better, just as much of fight & heart, and beat Craft head2head, even wanted Craft to have an awful outing. And we did. Similar to how I felt after yrs of Hummel-hype. Kind of how KC made Tom Brady look awful. And deep down, I think RussRob would eat Craft’s lunch, then steal the empty lunchbox back…Just like when former big10 coach Self is able to out-tough a B1G team, especially since Izzo has our number. And TRob did outplay his buddy Sullinger, just as Self outcoached Matta in those games.
Classic battles. Thanks to my kubuckets buddies for allowing me to vent about TheOhioSt…
RCJH
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@ralster I think it’s terrible to single out Craft.
You should take out your wrath on ALL Buckeyes (isn’t that an acorn?) everywhere.
I have so much contempt for them that I don’t like anyone from Ohio, anyone that wears any combination of red/silver/gray and white or anyone who has ever driven through or flown over the state of Ohio. Blah.
They are extremely close on my hate register to Mizzou, Hitler and Ebola.
But I mean that in the nicest possible way.
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Here’s a better comparison to CF: Brannen Greene. At work now dont recall his 3% last season, but he got just as scarce mpg (it seems) as CF did, but Greene seemed to connect on 3s alot better than CF. And both were coming in cold off the bench. And Greene got quick yanks too. So if anyone can comparo Greene’s mpg & 3% then we’d be enlightened.
Additional corrollary to this cold3%shooting, is it reveals a player who is efficient of mechanics, to the point it can hit off the bench. Recall frosh Teahan, frosh Sherron were straight up money(!) from 3land off the bench. CF, methinks, is a volume shooter.
And we are really only discussing CF at all because of 3 made-3’s in a lost game. My hopes for him died with each and every 3 miss all season long, just as my hope for Greene rose with each made-3 all season long.
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Haha, nuleaf, yes you are correct!
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@ralster said:
Here’s a better comparison to CF: Brannen Greene. At work now dont recall his 3% last season, but he got just as scarce mpg (it seems) as CF did, but Greene seemed to connect on 3s alot better than CF. And both were coming in cold off the bench. And Greene got quick yanks too. So if anyone can comparo Greene’s mpg & 3% then we’d be enlightened.
Additional corrollary to this cold3%shooting, is it reveals a player who is efficient of mechanics, to the point it can hit off the bench. Recall frosh Teahan, frosh Sherron were straight up money(!) from 3land off the bench. CF, methinks, is a volume shooter.
And we are really only discussing CF at all because of 3 made-3’s in a lost game. My hopes for him died with each and every 3 miss all season long, just as my hope for Greene rose with each made-3 all season long.
Greene played 2 minutes less per game and hit 0.02% better from 3. BG also had a better FG% and FT%. He did average 0.5 to’s to CF’s 0.1 to’s.
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@nuleafjhawk yikes, rough crowd (I’ve flown and driven in Ohio)
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Thanks for the assist on the stats, Kip! Hmm, not that much of a discrepancy…maybe my recollection was flawed. CF did protect the ball very well, while Greene was a bit careless, no doubt. Or, 3 made 3’s in the final game boosted CFs % because both he and Greene dont have a big sample size of total 3att’s? Good discussion. Obviously Self is looking at every aspect, not just 3%.
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@JayhawkRock78 …sigh…well, I used to like you. lol
OK - sometimes I get a tad carried away.
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“I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. Craft and Frankamp are completely different players with opposite strengths and weaknesses.”
I think I goofed my communique… I realize the difference between these two players. I just feel CF needed to get the same scrappy side as Craft. CF and Craft have different skill sets, and CF only weighed 165 lbs soaking wet. But he has the capacity and potential attitude to become a scrappy player. That was a way in which CF could have earned big minutes in a Jayhawk uniform.
BTW: great to see some brisk conversation in here again! I guess everyone is getting psyched for the season to roll in!
@nuleafjhawk - You do get carried away sometimes… that’s what I like about you! Keep it up, bud!
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@nuleafjhawk I beg to differ, you did not get carried away. @JayhawkRock78 should be shunned and banned from here like the French!
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ouch…
