Rocktagon the Chalktagon
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I think I’m getting more angry by the minute, KSU has completely owned us in most sports this year. Absolutely unacceptable.
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Son of a sheep lover…this team. SO many turnovers. Jeebus. I’d say that was pretty much the game. The harsh realization is that we have nearly zero ballhandlers. Even Dotson struggles when pressed. Grimes is kinda comical he’s so bad. How that guy even got a scholarship at a major program…hmmm. Hoping he stays and shows massive improvement next year.
On the bright side, Our defense was impressive for awhile. Albeit against a previously offensively challenged K-State team. Zone! Where’d that come from? Self is an enigma this year. Why go away from the plan/players that were keeping us in the game? Mitch, Charlie, etc.
K State once again game planned Vick out of the game. Self needs to do a better job of getting his guys in position to score.
Vick was benched the second I started screaming at the TV for his complete lack of effort or give a shit on D. I’m assuming that’s why. Anybody know otherwise?
The top moment of the game? When Mitch and Charlie bonked heads in the lane. Sums it up nicely.
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@mayjay That’s a good spot for him. He’ll carve out a larger role in Detroit.
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@jayhawkcsg You should yell at the TV earlier.
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kjayhawks said:
We were basically down 2 starters friends and showed our youth at the guard spots. Let’s take out some anger on OSU Saturday.
There is also a major bone to pick with OSU after their sweep last year, first in the HCBS era.
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Well if what I heard was right as I didn’t bother to watch the very end for just the reason I heard took place - -and that is that their so called fans rushed the floor and acted like idiots - -If that is the case - - - - -
Then in reality they are making themselves look really bad - - -even more so then our play. Cause as I’m sure we have all heard that when fans storm their court like that - -it detracts from what their team did ON the floor - -it’s like dis respecting your own guys , saying that they didn’t expect to win the game. - - It’s pretty classless ,people could and have been hurt. - -You remember when Jamari showed great restraint ? - and THAT was at K-Straight – I mean come on act like you belong - - act like you actually feel like you felt you could very easily win the game - -. - -this is just showing your ignorance. your taking away from what your team accomplished.
I thought the conference established fines for when league teams fans did this - -because of what K-Straight did the LAST TIME. RIGHT?
let me ask you - - how many times have you seen KU storm the court after winning a big game? - - -I mean obviously we sure the hell not going to storm the floor against league opponents - -I mean we beat their as so often - - -BUT how many times have you seen KU storm the court after we beat the likes of Say - - Kentucky ? - - - -N Carolina ? - - - -Michigan State ? – - Duke ? - -have you seen us storm the floor after we beat one of them ? - -the answer is a resounding - - NO - - - - why ? - - Why don’t we ? – - -the answer is simple - -because we have shown we belong - -we belong on the floor with these elite teams - I mean come on you fricken idiots - - so some class - - -some respect - -to us - - hell show it to your own players - - - - -Act like you belong -I’m sure it would be appreciated by ALL
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Another gem of a game from Grimes. He hit two 3’s. One of those was 10 feet long and banked in off the glass at 100 mph. He had five turnovers. He had four fouls. He had 1 rebound.
How was this kid the #8 recruit in the country and was a lottery pick on every board before the season started?
When does Bill put him on the bench? We have seen it before where Bill puts high ranked stars into the deep freeze. Why not Grimes? Not judging. Honestly asking. What is going on here?
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@joeloveshawks Its tough to see why Self would’t start Garrett over him once healthy. He’s had his time and hasn’t made the best of it. Maybe he would be better off the bench.
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Look at the other options. Optics play a part here. Self cant afford to sit a highly decorated freshman for recruiting purposes. This isnt the oubre years anymore, these kids notice. I’m not saying that’s the main reason as his defensive effort is appalling to watch which should piss him off enough to consider other options. I think Grimes is the least of his issues though, Vick again showed why he is not mentally capable of being a teammate and mentor
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@joeloveshawks Bill read boards past and is letting Grimes play through his mistakes, you don’t want to shatter his confidence, ya know? Lol
Seriously, I just think Self has too few options on what was supposed to be a deep team. You’ve got to play Vick, or Moore, or Grimes, or KJ, or Mitch. Most games Grimes just disappears. You usually know when the other guys are in. Our McDonald’s AA Center can’t get off the bench even with the two guys ahead of him on the depth chart out for the year. This is not the team America expected last summer.
No leadership, no chemistry, not good…yet I still hold hope this squad will galvanize. It may be losing the streak on the court (not in the court) will motivate the fantastic fresman core to be dominate as Sophomores (and Juniors if I may be greedy). Heck it may be they figure it out after this loss, but it looked all to familiar for me think a turnaround is that eminent.
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It really drives me nuts that Weber is allowed to be so far on the floor, hope one of these days someone flattens him.
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Self hasnt changed with regarding Grimes, he just doesnt have many options. Vick(brain dead), Grimes(Everything), Garrett(cant shoot at ALL), Moore(cant play d or finish at the rim), and Agbaji(young dumb mistakes) all have issues.
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I think Vick might be attitude
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I thought we played excellent for a nice stretch. Mainly after Vick and Q were pulled. I liked the way we fought back to make it a game. This loss doesn’t bother me as much as the other ones. A young team playing an E8 team on the road. Their game of the year. Little brother’s break through game. We’ll be lower seeded this year, so no one will expect much from us in the tournament. So, maybe we put together a nice little tournament run, and surprise ourselves.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Maybe its onus for thinking Vick would be a new man this season. Same old Vick, can be great but only chooses to be 30% of the time.
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We gained the lead when Kansas St went over 7 minutes without a field goal. We looked better then the reality of the situation. Once st woke up in the 2nd half there was no hope. That Grimes play where he attempted to bat the ball out instead of grabbing the rebound right in front of his face then fouling was imo the difference in the game. It was a one possession game and everything spiraled from there like brain dead Vick playing 1 on 5.
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After I saw wade easily take Lawson to the goal more than once, it was over. Dedric can’t bend his knees, or slide his feet. I know he’s a 4, but so is wade. I wish he would be tougher! He’s been w/Hudy 2 years, I expect more out of him. I know he gets fouled, but he seems so weak. I know he’s our go to guy and I love the guy, I just can’t understand why he’s not better, tougher. I thought we looked like a jv. team against a varsity team. I give d dot a pass. Thought we should’ve stayed in the zone? Corner 3’s
If we don’t value the ball like that, more losses.
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@Crimsonorblue22 That’s why I have said he is gone, people think he could improve so much. I don’t think he can athletically, He’s a 4 year junior in the second half of the season, what you get is what you see. Defense against 3s have been terrible all year and it’s just not gonna change at this point unfortunately.
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It seems like the minute we think we have an answer, something screws up that answer.
I do know what we haven’t tried – starting and playing McCormack. I can’t say that is the answer. But it is worth a shot at this point. Would work fine in the middle of that 2/3 zone. It is worth a look. But I’m not suggesting it’s “the” answer at all. It’s an option worth exploring because what we’ve seen isn’t the answer.
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I can’t see all the posts, did anyone say that brown shouted out brannen Greene on his dunk at the end of the game?
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@Crimsonorblue22 This may have been what you saw. The only comment about Brannen was actually late in the second half when I said the dunk with a minute left did not bother me.
Texas Hawk 10 said:
So Barry Brown with the dick move to end the game?
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He did call it out. I read it on another blog. Just wasn’t sure you guys knew for sure.
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It was the one that didn’t count
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He took one dribble and then catapulted up and threw the ball down with one hand, only his shot came after the buzzer.
“No, no regret at all, man,” Brown said. “Shoutout Brannen Greene.”
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joeloveshawks said:
Another gem of a game from Grimes. He hit two 3’s. One of those was 10 feet long and banked in off the glass at 100 mph. He had five turnovers. He had four fouls. He had 1 rebound.
How was this kid the #8 recruit in the country and was a lottery pick on every board before the season started?
When does Bill put him on the bench? We have seen it before where Bill puts high ranked stars into the deep freeze. Why not Grimes? Not judging. Honestly asking. What is going on here?
Who you replacing him with? - -Ochai is already on the court – Garret sure isn’t gonna help on the offensive end - - who else you got?
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
I can’t see all the posts, did anyone say that brown shouted out brannen Greene on his dunk at the end of the game?
YA – Class at it’s finest. - -but what does he have to worry about – Senior - -this is his last year - -he can play the fool - not have to worry - - the Phog Awaits
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joeloveshawks said:
Another gem of a game from Grimes. He hit two 3’s. One of those was 10 feet long and banked in off the glass at 100 mph. He had five turnovers. He had four fouls. He had 1 rebound.
How was this kid the #8 recruit in the country and was a lottery pick on every board before the season started?
When does Bill put him on the bench? We have seen it before where Bill puts high ranked stars into the deep freeze. Why not Grimes? Not judging. Honestly asking. What is going on here?
Remember when people said the 2018 class was garbage? They were right.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
He did call it out. I read it on another blog. Just wasn’t sure you guys knew for sure.
ya been reported also b Chasen that’s what he said on the last sec dunk
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@jayballer73 that’s where I read it
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So, interesting juxtaposition in our last 2 games. We get motivated by Devonte before the game Saturday, and go out and crush TTex.
Go to Manhattan, and find out that they are motivated by Brannen Greene. And apparently they have figured out how to make virtually our entire team channel our inner Brannen and play as shitty as he did.
Who ever predicted BG as a key to a KU game in 2019?
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@joeloveshawks Theory — Adidas paid Grimes. Self knows. Grimes knows Self knows. Leverage. Grimes starts every game. Just a theory to explain the inexplicable.
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@HighEliteMajor an excellent theory. And probably has weight. And to your earlier point. Why not more Big Dave at this point? I think the kid is good. I’ve been saying for weeks if not months this particular group of kids is better 3 around 2 if for no other reason than lack of great outside shooting. He just needs more time in there to find himself. But doesn’t get it. Why? 4-1 allows for the paid kid to be in more. I’m just done with it. The one time Self should sit the higher regarded (hs ranked) player he doesn’t. Or atleast not enough. Now one could say he should play Grimes more to let the this teams ceiling come to fruition. But I just don’t think he has it. Big Dave does . Give him the time. Idk. I feel each game like I either know less and less about this game, or it’s just changed beyond my comprehension.
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Lol worried about Greenes dunk from 3 years ago, wow get a life.
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Grimes is not the same player he was in the USA games. Self is trying to find that guy. Why wouldn’t any other player speak out that has sat? Anywhere!
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To make matters worse, our girls just blew a 7 point lead in the final 2 minutes and got beat by 10 in OT by KSU. I only watched late but KSU hit a 3 on an obvious walk and had a and 1 without being touched. Don’t know how the rest of the game was called. This team would be on the bubble if they learned to finish games out.
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mayjay said:
So, interesting juxtaposition in our last 2 games. We get motivated by Devonte before the game Saturday, and go out and crush TTex.
Go to Manhattan, and find out that they are motivated by Brannen Greene. And apparently they have figured out how to make virtually our entire team channel our inner Brannen and play as shitty as he did.
Who ever predicted BG as a key to a KU game in 2019?
pretty dam funny Brown still got Brennan playing games with his head - - guess all that therapy must of work - - Vent those frustration BERRY roflmfao - -oh Berry - -umm ONE little thing to let play MORE games with you - -you still coming to the Phog lmao - -we will be there - - have a great day
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kjayhawks said:
Lol worried about Greenes dunk from 3 years ago, wow get a life.
Why are you worried about Green’s dunk? - - shouldn’t be - - I’m not - -Berry Brown was/is - - roflmao. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Sitting a highly decorated Top 15 player would look awful bad to recruits. Self was hammered for years by other coaches when he did this in the past.
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@BeddieKU23 Just give Grimes a different look off the bench is all. See if something can jump start him.
But I don’t understand why it’s ok then under that theory to banish a McDonald’s AA to the bench in McCormack. Is there some importance about the top 15 thing you think?
MCormack has been better than Grimes.
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So Grimes’ stat line is atrocious, 1 reb 6 pts 4 fouls 5 TOs, it’s true (I’m going by others posts on the TOs, espn doesn’t have it).
But when we were hanging tough, Grimes was out there on the floor. Vicks line was a little better,.7 pts 3 Reb, 2 assists, 0 PF, ? TOs. However, Vick killed us. Just killed us. Strictly in terms of on floor chemistry, is Grimes decent? Does the team play well with him out there?
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BeddieKU23 Just give Grimes a different look off the bench is all. See if something can jump start him.
But I don’t understand why it’s ok then under that theory to banish a McDonald’s AA to the bench in McCormack. Is there some importance about the top 15 thing you think?
MCormack has been better than Grimes.
I figured you would bring up McCormack and yes I do think there is something to the importance of Grimes being the much higher rated prospect coming in. The OAD train started on him well before he got to campus. There is pressure to satisfy him as well as future recruits that are looking at how Grimes is being used by Self. To counter that, Dotson has been a major win for Self considering a freshman PG hadn’t started here in a long time. Dotson’s success will have an impact on the type of PG’s Self will have a chance with in the future.
There’s always a few every year we are wondering why they get minutes or don’t get minutes. The whole Agbaji situation still baffles me as well.
Bringing Grimes off the bench I think has the chance to permanently damage the relationship. Kids leave nowadays at the change of the wind. If Q is the type that could be motivated by that tactic then Self should consider it when Marcus is healthy. Or as you suggested prior, play McCormack now and don’t wait. I think there is a ton of risk in sitting Grimes at this point. Self has believed in letting him play through all this. I don’t know he has to see what we see on tape especially on defense. Usually it isn’t tolerated. But then we have Vick…with his head in and out daily so you wonder what is going on with a lot of things in this program. Too many distractions and issues at this point in the season.
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The K-St game was clear evidence that Vick cannot be trusted. He was toxic on the court Tuesday.
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The PER does support that McCormack (14.9) has been the better player then Grimes (8.4) despite the disparity in their minutes. In Conference play Dave’s PER is lower 5.2 to Grimes 8.3 which may be why he’s played so little. Both numbers are terrible. Actually when you look at everyone’s you wish you didn’t. Moore-4.5, Mitch-4.7, Dave-5.2, Lawson-6.9, Grimes-8.3. About as bad as it gets from those 5
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@BeddieKU23 As usual, you make very good points.
I am a big, big believer in playing the guy that will be the best player, letting the talent develop, and work towards having the better talent at the end of the season. My struggle with Grimes is that I’m just not seeing much and I seriously question his effort. That’s a lot different than Cliff, or Diallo, or Releford, or Selby, or EJ.
To put this in context, I’d start Jamari Traylor over Grimes right now.
But your points are the pragmatic ones. I understand that may be more rational.
Good point on McCormack’s PER in conference play. I think if he was able to play, get his legs under him some, we’d be satisfied with his play. Self seems married to the 4/1 now (which I just don’t think matches this team very well).
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BeddieKU23 said:
Sitting a highly decorated Top 15 player would look awful bad to recruits.
Yet, we end up sitting those recruits anyway because they are deemed ineligible.
To change the game we have to quit playing the game and do what’s best for the team. Right now I don’t even see a team out on the floor. I see five individuals with no cohesion, no cohesiveness and no chemistry.
I don’t care who got paid what at this point and I certainly don’t care about hurt feelings or some fraudulent pecking order. I don’t care about the number of stars next to their name or how great the “experts” think they are. I also don’t care about past performance or “potential”. Play the guys who have the desire and the hustle and the want-to. I don’t even care if THAT starting five are the most talented.
What we’re trotting out there now doesn’t work. So, try something else.
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BeddieKU23 said:
The K-St game was clear evidence that Vick cannot be trusted. He was toxic on the court Tuesday.
Self won’t do it but I wonder if just straight kicking Vick off the team would be a net positive right now.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Good point on McCormack’s PER in conference play. I think if he was able to play, get his legs under him some, we’d be satisfied with his play. Self seems married to the 4/1 now (which I just don’t think matches this team very well).
I am not sure but I think a mix would be best. Mitch and KJ can be serviceable at the 4.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BeddieKU23 As usual, you make very good points.
I am a big, big believer in playing the guy that will be the best player, letting the talent develop, and work towards having the better talent at the end of the season. My struggle with Grimes is that I’m just not seeing much and I seriously question his effort. That’s a lot different than Cliff, or Diallo, or Releford, or Selby, or EJ.
To put this in context, I’d start Jamari Traylor over Grimes right now.
But your points are the pragmatic ones. I understand that may be more rational.
Good point on McCormack’s PER in conference play. I think if he was able to play, get his legs under him some, we’d be satisfied with his play. Self seems married to the 4/1 now (which I just don’t think matches this team very well).
I’m also a big believer in playing the better player. The effort thing you mentioned is my biggest issue with him as well. He is loafing on defense almost to the point you wonder if he’s in “protect the goods” mode. Except he’s no longer a first round pick so what’s he protecting? I don’t see any team drafting him after this season either. The tape will expose Grimes in a bad way. So his issue still seems to be mental. His recent interview talking about his struggles to do everything perfect reminds me of the last guy we had with that mentality- Perry Ellis. That was a big thing that held him back in his younger days and I see the similarities. If he sticks around past this season I think he’ll be the player we recruited in time. The problem is we expected that player this year.
The last thing I want to mention in regards to Q is I think he’s shown he’s not an off-the-ball perimeter player. I know Self recruited the Dotson/Grimes duo to play together but I think what Self ended up with is two guards that are meant for the same position. If we throw in Garrett’s lack of perimeter shot I think we have 3 guys for one spot on offense. We have Batman’s but no Robins. That’s where Malik Newman would have saved this team. The dominance Grimes showed in HS was primarily because his role never changed. He was the PG and primary scoring option at all 3 levels (Texas, AAU, Team USA). He was physically bigger then guys who guarded him and his skill level with the ball in his hands made him the player he was projected to be. At KU he’s had to learn how to play without the ball for the first time and its showing. He looks slower, he looks disinterested in playing defense especially if a player gets a step on him. When he gets a rebound or an effort play you feel like that’s the first time you’ve seen him do that ever in a KU uniform. I think a lot of the offensive fouls he’s been called for this year have zapped his confidence in driving to the hoop. He’s more of a straight line driver instead of having some wiggle. That probably is attributed to him being an average athlete at this level which wasn’t his problem in HS. His streaky outside shot has also been a disappointment. I have mentioned several times he rushes. He shot near 40% from 3 as a Senior on over 200 attempts so its interesting to see his struggles because a lot of his misses are often wide open.
I agree about Dave. I think he’d prove with the minutes to be valuable to this team. You don’t have to teach effort with him like it seems with others. Self seems to have a big issue with his defensive positioning though. I remember him being out of position on his first defensive trip Tuesday where he was caught in front of his man who got a wide open layup. Those mistakes seem to be the kiss of death for a freshman big under Self. But those are ultimately mistakes I think Self should live with in order to build him up. He’s going to need him the next 3 years and after all the injuries his lack of playing time just doesn’t make much sense.
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No arguments from me on everything you said. Self wants to win though. Normally his teams are buckling down and forming an identity. Not sure this group will get there.
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@BeddieKU23 They’re not buckling down, but they’re forming an identity.
