FBI...here we go
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Woodrow said:
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I think Self was probably pretty upfront with Long during the hiring process. Remember Self sought out Long for the AD job and met with him. I don’t think this totally blindsided Long. Also Long was the AD at Arkansas. You don’t think he knows the name of the game?? He was in charge of a SEC football team for crying out loud!
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I was just talking to some people today that this has to be annoying / frustrating for Self and I absolutely think it could change his career path. I am still not convinced he is a NBA guy, but he has always said he doesn’t want to coach forever I would think this ups the timeline on his retirement date.
your words about changing Coach Self’s career is just what I was addressing and upping the timeline Matt Tait has a pretty solid piece on this check it out - -I have to agree with you - -only the thing I might differ on is he has mentioned about how he might would like to try and give the NBA a shot. - Like you say I think it just might change the timing of his timeline to what degree - -we just don’t know
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Either way all of this is almost certainly a black eye in the court of public opinion. No matter how valid. That’s the world we live in. Whats it do as far as tarnishing self’s legacy here? Maybe it’s still too early to tell.
If the NCAA sweeps it under the rug for monetary reasons. Which I do now firmly believe they have done in the past with other programs. How will we personally look at the legacy. And again the court of public opinion. I’m sure we’ve all heard or read the ole “Dollar Bill” thing and such from other fan bases. Ya know… Coach K ratface, Calipari Slimeball. It’s all out there. Just not sure how I’d respond now to that.
Missing on some big time recruits and sitting some guys over reasonable doubt about violations in the past was at least some ammunition to refute such claims even if you thought “eh, it could be going on everywhere”
Now what will I say… What will we say to the “dollar Bill the slimeball cheater” phrase when we are certainly sure to hear it. Ya ya, but he’s our slimeball!!! Idk
What a mess
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Woodrow said:
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I think Self was probably pretty upfront with Long during the hiring process. Remember Self sought out Long for the AD job and met with him. I don’t think this totally blindsided Long. Also Long was the AD at Arkansas. You don’t think he knows the name of the game?? He was in charge of a SEC football team for crying out loud!
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I was just talking to some people today that this has to be annoying / frustrating for Self and I absolutely think it could change his career path. I am still not convinced he is a NBA guy, but he has always said he doesn’t want to coach forever I would think this ups the timeline on his retirement date.
Agree on the first one. Hope you are wrong about the 2nd but I could see it.
@jayballer73 Not sure what article you are talking about? I went to kusports and checked Tait’s articles and didn’t see this particular one. Checked his twitter as well. If you could post a link for me, that would be great.
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@jayballer73 Nvm, found it.
Link
http://www2.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2018/oct/17/the-5-most-pressing-questions-kansas-fan/
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- Long knows.
- I was just thinking this. This entire process makes me think he has to be contemplating retiring more now than ever. And I can’t blame him. Either you play the game and get screwed. Or you don’t play the game and get screwed. Pretty much a lose-lose situation.
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BShark said:
Woodrow said:
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I think Self was probably pretty upfront with Long during the hiring process. Remember Self sought out Long for the AD job and met with him. I don’t think this totally blindsided Long. Also Long was the AD at Arkansas. You don’t think he knows the name of the game?? He was in charge of a SEC football team for crying out loud!
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I was just talking to some people today that this has to be annoying / frustrating for Self and I absolutely think it could change his career path. I am still not convinced he is a NBA guy, but he has always said he doesn’t want to coach forever I would think this ups the timeline on his retirement date.
Agree on the first one. Hope you are wrong about the 2nd but I could see it.
@jayballer73 Not sure what article you are talking about? I went to kusports and checked Tait’s articles and didn’t see this particular one. Checked his twitter as well. If you could post a link for me, that would be great.
sorry my friend I STILL haven’t figured out how to share links. I know you all have tried to help me but I guess I’m just thick doesn’t sink in , but gald you found it anyways. - So what DID YOU think about it - -I mean he does raise some valid points guy
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Imagine if Bill Self turned KU into Indiana or UCLA instead of winning at the unprecedented rate he has. But he did it “clean” (whatever people think that means). They’d want his f*ing head for tarnishing KU’s good name in basketball.
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Imagine if the FF banner comes down. Imagine if the 14th lil 10 title is stripped. Imagine if there’s a post season ban. Then we will get to say damn that was a great run of tourney appearances in between those violations and sanctions. It’s easy to see the response from those who think rules aren’t for them cause they don’t like the rules…
The NCAA screwed us. They punished us and let others get away with it. It’s a bunch of crap. Right?
For all the convos over the years. A prevalent one has been. Would you trade any big12 titles for just one more NC, 2 more, etc. Would you miss the tourney one year for just 1 more NC etc. And of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion on all of it.
I’m capable of holding things in perspective. So here it is. And I know… Ppl arent commonly good with “IF, THEN” statements here…
If everyone else is cheating, and if that is an undeniable fact. And we are not. And that is an undeniable fact. Then… I don’t care if the program is as successful as it is now.
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@cragarhawk But you do care that it is successful, correct?
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What level of success is ok, as long as we are “clean”?
Really, what is the worst you are willing to be as long as it means staying “clean”?
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I don’t have a set standard on it. That really would be no better.
If you’re willing to trade dirt for wins, what’s a lil more dirt for a few more wins and another NC or 2 while we’re at it.
Clean is clean, and I’ll live with the record it produces. I’m not gonna stop loving Ku basketball if they lose.
I’d honestly rather hear that my team sucks and be able to say ya you’re right they aren’t very good this year, but we absolutely aren’t cheating, which is the right message for the kids we’re sending out into the world. Than to hear, 15 straight bought and paid for big 12 titles huh Mr jayhawk fan… and have to say… Ya you’re right, we bought better recruits and paid more money then you did losers…
And yes I know it’s 2018 and I don’t fit in for having that mentality. And that’s okay. My opinion doesn’t require anyone’s validation
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@cragarhawk You watch KU Football games?
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@cragarhawk You a Royals fan?
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Under the assumption that most players are getting paid, it still boils down to identifying players that fit your system, talent evaluation and coaching.
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@Kcmatt7 and of course I care that the program is successful. Winning is always more fun than losing. But I also don’t know that I believe a program absolutely can’t be successful unless they’re dirty. There’s different levels of success and sometimes the most important levels go beyond the score board. Again, in my own opinion
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@cragarhawk I absolutely think a program could be successful playing it clean. Once in a blue moon. When a genetic freakshow grows up a local fan. Like Harrison Barnes growing up in Ames.
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@cragarhawk no I don’t watch alot of Ku football games,. I have at times, and no I don’t watch alot of royals games but I have at times.
But that would be unfair as I don’t watch alot of football or baseball period. I love the game of basketball.
Ku basketball… I don’t wanna ever miss another game, and I don’t ever wanna love another program or sport like I do KU basketball.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@cragarhawk I absolutely think a program could be successful playing it clean. Once in a blue moon. When a genetic freakshow grows up a local fan. Like Harrison Barnes growing up in Ames.
LOL
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I think a lot of people actually would not really care much about or be invested in KU basketball if it was clean. Going back to Larry Brown all the winning is what built up the fan base. If the team was a perennial loser it would basically be like football, which would suck.
Jmo.
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@BShark largely I think you’re probably correct, and I also think that sad and unfortunate
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I admit. I still just do not understand the Preston thing if we’re a dirty program…
I mean there is the argument that paper trail was more blatant. Until this recent evidence about desouza, and what could have been potentially with Williamson and or Ayton. That kinda blows that argument doesn’t it?
Beyond that, what is the difference here? Dollar amount? Does that change the fact that it’s a blatant rules violation In the current system?
Why play desouza and keep Billy out? Or also. Why not play Billy too of we’re dirty and we know it and the NCAA doesn’t really care as long as it gets it’s bank?
It makes me think there’s just so much more to all of this than we will ever know.
Maybe I just refuse to see it all for what it is. I just want a smoking gun the other direction. I wanna be able to say Dammit, see… Bill does it right and largely overchieves at it in spite of that
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@cragarhawk Nobody in this business has overachieved to the level of success of a Wooden or a Self or a Knight without some “help.”
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UK fans hoping and praying.
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@Kcmatt7 let’s say that is the truth
It taints the game doesn’t it? The game, the history of it and everything included.
Who do you personally hold in higher regard… Roger Maris? Or Bonds, Sosa, and Mcquire?
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Knight never cheated. That guy hated Wooden because he knew about Sam Gilbert.
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@BigBad And 48 hours ago apparently half of our fanbase thought Bill Self was a saint.
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Go read about Knight. The guy barely recruited. He had to be begged by assistants to go look at guys. LOL.
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Yeah if there is a guy I’d believe was clean, it’s Knight.
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Also I knew Jason Collier personally(he went to school with my younger sister). He said Knight mentioned others will offer you things I wont.
Side note. I tried to convince Jason to go to Kansas. Told him he would be the next Lafrentz. 7’ lefty.
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@cragarhawk Absolutely taints the game. The game has been tainted since the 50s. But it is the system we place upon it that doesn’t work, not those inside of it. There is so much money in the game and we expect those generating the product to not want to take a bite of the apple. You guys say it is about integrity, but the ones without integrity are the ones who ignore the rules in the first place. The NCAA. You can only expect as much integrity out of the system as you put into the system. The NCAA has no desire to stop the payments, so they don’t.
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I’d like to say I absolutely believe Coach Knight was
clean. Would definitely have before…In light of recent events I’m skeptical about everyone for the last 50 to 60 years I guess…
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@BigBad An arrogant asshole who verbally (and probably physically) abused players and doesn’t recruit but was amazingly successful for 35 years. Sounds totally legit.
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He got more out of them cause they were scared of being choked the eff out!!! Lol
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I didnt say the guy was a saint. I said he didnt pay players.
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@BigBad I’m not saying he did. I’m just not saying someone else around the program didn’t.
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Also recruiting was waaaay different back then. You could still find kids in the 80s. Shoecos in the 90s changed things and with the internet now almost all prospects are known.
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@BShark kinda adds up. That’s when Knight’s teams really began to fall off badly
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Knight didnt need to cheat. Most kids in Indiana looked at Basketball as religion and Knight as a deity. He got almost every top Indiana recruit and that was always a stud. When did Knight start losing? When he started missing on all those recruits. Why did he miss? Others paying.
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I also find it funny that when Prop 48 came out there were plenty of kids who were not eligible to play as freshmen. Studs like Larry Johnson and Glenn Big Dog Robinson. Now NOBODY fails the SAT. Id bet my life its all cheated.
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cragarhawk said:
@BShark kinda adds up. That’s when Knight’s teams really began to fall off badly
And when Duke took off. Plus the fab five and those Tark UNLV teams.
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BigBad said:
I also find it funny that when Prop 48 came out there were plenty of kids who were not eligible to play as freshmen. Studs like Larry Johnson and Glenn Big Dog Robinson. Now NOBODY fails the SAT. Id bet my life its all cheated.
Imagine being Derrick Rose, the only kid to get caught.
KU has had some partial qualifiers under Self. I still say what if Ben was eligible in 2012. That UK team was really good but maybe he makes enough of a difference. Ben was so good.
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That jumper was smooooooooth
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@BShark hell ya. Why not say it makes a difference. We still had a legitimate shot at beating UK that year as is. Couple balls bounce a different way and we win that game. One of my most favorite teams…
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Yeah I just can’t help but think he could have made the difference. Conner Teahan played 21 minutes a game for that team after all.
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Here is a question that has been intriguing me for awhile, but which I have never seen addressed:
Will adidas be sanctioned by the Frankfurt stock market (traded there, acc to Wikipedia) or Euro regulators if its agents are found in these cases to have engaged in widespread criminal activity on behalf of the company? We know the Euros are willing to impose huge fines on American companies (MSoft, Google, Facebook) that have done bad things in Europe. Will they punish one of their own for violations in America? Does the failure of the stock price to be very affected by the indictments play a role?
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Knight did not need to cheat, he had plenty of boosters working on the background doing the dirty work to steer kids to Indiana. I would say most coaches maintain a healthy distance to have plausible deniability but they generally know what’s happening even when they are not doing it hands on.
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@JayHawkFanToo If true, I am guessing the major NCAA violation called “failure to exercise institutional control” is essentially the failure to have enough obscuring layers in place to support schools’ Sgt Schultz act?
So, most schools have probably had boosters or friends of the program help recruits get laid. But Louisville had a BB staffer do it with hookers brought to their residence some 20 times. No layer at all, or the thinnest possible one, shielding Pitino. Should have used Uber or a cab, given the driver a grand or two, and had them taken to a local ‘restaurant’ for the innocent dinner planned for them to interact with the local Pole community–er, pole community.
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Incidentally, I had a close friend awhile back who worked in the 70s and 80s for a company that did lots of lighting and audio installations in the famous NYC clubs. He said they had a local brothel and high-end call girls pretty much on retainer and they would help convince financiers and club operators to choose his company.
It ain’t just basketball.
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@mayjay It’s in everything unfortunately especially the government.
