BOLD PREDICTIONS
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Dedric averages a double double- is clearly the man on a talented team.
Charlie leads the team in assists.
Dotson and Grimes- one drafted in top 20, one comes back for soph year.
Next years starters- Charlie, KJ, returning from above, Big Dave and Lightfoot
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KJ adds an element of versatility that most college teams simply do not have. He can punish smaller guys inside, and terrorize bigger guys on the perimeter. At the same time, he’s quick enough to handle small guys on the perimeter, but big enough to handle 4s in the post.
He gives KU a distinct advantage on offense (will probably always have a MUA) without giving anything back on the other end, where he will likely never be at a disadvantage.
As for my predictions:
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Quentin Grimes averages 13/5/4, but is a first team all conference player based on incredible efficiency, as he shoots 50/40/85.
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Dedric is Big 12 POY, again based on startling efficiency, as his numbers don’t blow anyone away 15/10/3, but he shoots 55/35/75
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Doke shoots over 80%, but is on the bench at crunch time.
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KU’s crunch time lineup is Dotson-Grimes-Vick-KJ-Dedric
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Dotson does not start early in the year, but becomes the starting PG right after Finals.
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Vick’s averages drop (from 12/5/2 to 10/4/2), but, consistent with the trend above, his efficiency rises as he improves from 49/37/67 to 52/40/70.
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KJ Lawson is second team all conference despite not averaging double figures in points or rebounds, and despite not ranking in the conference top 10 in any major statistical category.
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Charlie Moore averages more assists than points, as he makes a name for himself feeding Doke, the Lawson brothers, Vick and Grimes off the bench.
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Devon Dotson turns heads on the defensive end. With the team having so many weapons, Dotson becomes the tip of the spear on the defensive end, leading the team in steals and playing the type of defense we haven’t seen since Russell Robinson.
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Marcus Garrett shoots better from three (around 33%), but plays limited minutes.
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@JayhawksandChill Next year’s starting lineup: Dotson/Charlie/KJ/ Mitch/ Big Dave. Or, Dotson/KJ/Hurt/JRE/Big Dave. Or, Charlie/Dotson/Garrett/unknown freshman/ Dave. BTW, Big Dave is killing it on his overseas trip:
http://www2.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2018/aug/15/ku-freshman-david-mccormack-nearly-avera/
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@justanotherfan Great stuff. I am definitely warming to KJ. Can you imagine how tough our perimeter defense will be with Dotson, Marcus, and KJ? They will flat get after people, and our huge front line will allow us to play the intense pressure defense on the perimeter that Russ and the gang played in their national championship march. No more Arizona St/Nova throw downs like last year.
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Don’t underestimate Grimes, either. With him having more talent around him, he will be able to exert more energy on defense without having to worry about trying to score 50 points a night.
The defense should be nasty.
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ROTF!!
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I’m intrigued with McCormack, too.
QGrime too high at 20, unless he grows a trey.
Vick will be a major force.
My guess is Silvio is the super Nova if there is one.
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I keep hoping Hudy and PTs and OTs have worked on Doke’s arm to give him the strength and control to develop a coordinated, efficient shooting motion. If they have, he will join KU’s list of great centers.
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@jaybate-1.0 yep.
I predict something happens at some point in the season: injury, ineligibility , something with our starters, and Silvio goes off.
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@jaybate-1.0 Grimes is an astonishing talent- he might be the best OAD yet. Even if he doesn’t hit 20 a game, I have no doubt he will be one of two overall leading scorers, along with Dedric.
The guy I am probably overlooking in all this is Marcus Garrett. If the Townsend magic works on Garrett’s 3 point shot the way it has worked with others, then we truly have a lethal weapon. Cause Garrett is damn good in every phase of the game EXCEPT shooting. If he solves that riddle, we’re talking a 4 year guy who is All Conference his junior yr, with a shot at All American his senior year. I noticed in the summer scrimmages that he’s been driving the ball to the rim with authority, with a quickness I haven’t seen since Tayshawn. Watching him, Dotson, and Grimes attack the basket will be something else.
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Great news about Garrett’s driving. He was kind of a blank slate waiting to be written on offensively. KU’s staff has a good record of finding ways for guys to offend that helps both them and the team. Occasional failures but mostly successes.
Controversial Hunch: Vick still being sharply underestimated. Self had him playing the domestique role last season and he got in a funk about it, but played the role well when positive. Guys that have done this role for Self as underclassmen have tended to have large senior seasons, even despite stormy stretches of impatient youth the next to last season. Look at it this way: Vick started and did pretty much everything one can do for a team as domestique for a Final Four team. He is a gifted athlete who has been in the toughening box. He has had an off season to work on his dribbling. Self may play OADs so as to get more OADs, but Self could give the keys to the Ferrari to Vick and know he could run LeMans and win. You know Self. He can play Charlie and Garrett with Dotson and Grimes, or he can play Vick 30, who has started in a Final Four with them, and rotate Garrett with known defense and a drive for 20 and rotate Charlie for all of them to keep ball handling as needed.
I see a starting perimeter of Vick, Grimes and Dotson if Dotson can handle D1 speed and violence, else Garrett.
I know folks doubt Vick’s dribbling/passing at point, but he is the best perimeter player on the team and, like Tyshawn once upon a time, offers an unparalleled MUA in athleticism/height/speed tradeoff in D1.
If Self can believe in Vick’s Head, which is probably hard for Self, Self has a championship perimeter to go with his flock of six bigs.
I believe Self, the river boat gambler, as Slayr calls him, will let it all ride on Vick at point to start. Even if Vick crapped out early, it would buy development time for the newbies.
Vick is ripe for the role.
And Self tends to try to scheme to get his five most talented guys that are sufficiently developed on the floor as starters.
Vick is one of those three perimeter guys out of the gate.
Self has to ride him, or spend a season with every guy on the team knowing the team could be better.
Self won’t let that happen.
Self’s only viable alternative is to give the keys to Grimes or Dotson and pray for instant maturity (and low TOS), which even Mario Chalmers, Josh Jackson, and Josh Selby lacked to be given the keys as frosh, and let Vick play the wing.
Don’t see Self doing this first half season except for development stretches against weak teams.
Vick fails the eye test for many, because he looks a little crazed with the stare and the hair. He also looked a little awkward ball handling, because he was obviously more overwhelmed doing all the chores than was Devonte before him, who made domestique look so easy Devonte’s junior season.
But I argue that, except for Vick’s funk (and its a rare KU player that doesn’t have one under Self’s relentless needle) and short trey slump, Vick did the domestique role as well, or better, than Devonte otherwise.
Vick is a right tail character, if you will. Most fans hate uniqueness, when it comes down to point guards. They will tolerate and even relish freaks elsewhere, but they want the eye test passed at point. Fans struggled with Tyshawn and Elijah, because both failed the eye test and legacy expectation of how the position “should” be played. They over focused on both those players’ traditional deficiencies and underestimated the benefits of their unorthodoxies.
But here is the proof in the pudding. KU crapped out in March with eye test orthodoxies, like Devonte and Frank, same as it crapped out with eye test unorthodoxies, like Tyshawn and Elijah.
I grew up with racial eye tests that said you couldnt start five blacks and win a ring. You couldn’t start a black point guard unless he was super human like Oscar Robertson. I grew up with eye tests saying Magic was too tall for point guard. I grew up with eye tests saying Bird couldn’t make it in the NBA because he was white and couldn’t jump.
I. DON’T. BELIEVE. IN. EYE. TESTS.
Vick is like many unorthodox talents. His flaws are used as evidence he cannot get better and do what his team needs.
This team needs Vick to lead it AND be point guard to become the best team it can be, or else Vick needs to have the greatest season a KU wing ever had and pray Grimes or Dotson can mature and protect and distribute instantly. No one else can make KU as good as Vick at point could make it.
Most are sure Vick can’t do it, same as most were sure Tyshawn and Elijah couldn’t do it. But Tyshawn and Elijah both led KU to titles and post season, same as Frank and Devonte did.
Vick da man!
He is about to learn what real loneliness is. He thinks being viewed as weird is bad. He thinks not being accepted is bad.
But just ask Devonte, or Frank, or Tyshawn, or Elijah, or Sherron, or Marcus, or Brandon, or anyone given the keys, when KU is down 14 with ten to go on an opponent’s floor and no teammate can hit shit, or find a weakness in his match up, or stop their best guy. Ask them how lonely it is when you take the ball and begin the long grind back everyone doubts can be made. Ask them how lonely it is when you come up short and have to face the reporters and your teammates are all showering and your coach’s eyes are saying: it’s on you dude. You wanted the keys. I can’t play for you. It’s your team. Find a way to make it work—to make them believe again.
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@jaybate-1.0 I envision Vick with a different role, simply because we have 3…possibly 4 skill sets on the perimeter that are already developed at the point, and Bill is always going to try to utilize what he has, unless he doesn’t have it ( EJ…Nadiir). KJ is way too tall, and although his handles are not bad for a 6’7" guy, I think bringing up the ball, setting the offense, dribbling out of traps etc might not put his best foot forward. That leaves Grimes, Charlie, and Dotson as our primary ball handlers. Grimes could play point for us right now, but he most likely won’t. He’s too good off the ball to load him down with the point responsibilities. That leaves Charlie and Dotson. Both are tailor made for pg. Dotson is very well coached, and considered to be a very good defender. His bugaboo is outside shooting, which will be a point of emphasis, I’m sure. Charlie will surprise a lot of people on here. You take a tough Chicago kid with a chip on his shoulder, and we could see shades of the good Sherron…although the defense might not be as good as a Dotson.
The wildcard for me at point isn’t Vick…the wildcard is Marcus Garrett. Garrett was running point in summer scrimmages, and looked pretty damn good, imo. Not saying he’s going to start at point, but if Dotson isn’t ready, and Charlie starts flinging shots up all over the place playing hero ball, Marcus made all state playing the point. If he gets his trey % up, maybe Marcus finds some minutes at the point. Coach will figure out a way to get Marcus in the game, and this might be a way to give him 5+ extra minutes.
My thoughts with Vick are he is such an offensive weapon, it would a crime to put him at point, even if he could probably technically play there. You have a 3 baller deluxe, who is used on plays to jump practically out of the gym on lobs. He is our zone buster in the middle of the lane, and he can drive and rock the rim in a twitch. And there is no doubt Vick is our best outside bomber. That said, Vick doesn’t shoot 3s off the dribble- he is a set shooter. He has to be fed. To me, he’s simply too good an offensive weapon to burden him with trying to run the team. I think him and KJ share the 3 spot, with Vick also splitting with Garrett the available minutes at the 2 when Grimes is out of the game.
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Garrett would be a good investment at point because he will be at KU for two years. Vick, Grimes and Dotson will all be gone in one. But he is at least a year away developmentwise. So: it still comes down to choosing between Grimes, Dotson and Vick for a starting PG to get the best 5 for stArters. I could see Garrett bumping Dotson one season at non PG
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Bold prediction: Kansas football wins its first road game this decade this season.
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@jaybate-1.0 I don’t see Dotson going to the NBA for at least two years. Such is life for the short guys.
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At this point I would think that Moore will start at PG although Dotson might take over as the season progresses; either way, both will take the bulk of the time. In a pinch or when a taller PG is needed, I can see Grimes playing PG; he did extremely well playing the position at the U19 tournament and Coach Self would have no problem having him play the position. Next, it would be Garret who already has PG experience. Pretty decent depth for the position and I just don’t see Vick running point but likely sliding to the SG when needed.
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Then there’s no way Dotson will be good enough to start and Self really only signed 1 OAD.
I’m ok with that assessment. Garrett might likely start ahead of him.
Vick still da man for me at pg.
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@jaybate-1.0 @KUSTEVE thank you both for the food for thought about Vick or Garrett at point. I had not really thought about it… But if either could do it well… Look out!
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We are both doing some envelope stretching.
It could be Charlie at PG, because of chemistry, orthodoxy, years remaining at KU, and Self being able to go two deep at both the wing spots with Charlie and Dotson at point.
But Self has a history of breaking from orthodoxy to get a scheme that gets his best 5 on the floor and his best 7 in March. It all depends on whether his best five can mesh via unorthodoxy and play best, or whether an orthodox 5 with less ability can play best?
Self will surely explore both paths, because he just has not shown a willingness to go long bench with an 8-10 man rotation in March, even when he has had that kind of depth in the past.
He will long bench through February to keep everyone happy, but the close games against good teams will reveal which 5 and 7 will the path decided on for March.
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Moore might start ahead of him but Dotson is plenty capable of taking over the position by the time conference play starts. Grimes played PG under Self for the USA Team in the U19 Tournament and he was the MVP of the tournament; he will likely play PG in the NBA and would certainly play PG ahead of Vick and so would Garret who was the HS Gatorade POY in Texas playing as PG. Highly unlikely Vick plays PG, he is the best returning 3 point shooter and likely will play like he did last season positioning himself in the corner for open 3s or driving the baseline for layups or dunks.
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The trouble is Garrett isn’t ready for the keys, he’s not an option developmentally.
Dotson probably won’t be ready for the keys all season either, unless he’s more special than Devonte, Frank, Tyshawn, Elijah, Sherron, Chalmers and RussRob. The chance of Dotson being better than all those guys, since he is not penciled as an OAD, seems slim.
This brings us back to Vick and Charlie. Charlie is an orthodox choice that has played a year of D1 and matured a year sitting. But Charlie is just no where near the athlete, defender, driver, or 3 pt shooter that Vick is.
Vick has the experience of backing up Devonte at PG and of sharing bringing the ball up on a Final Four team. He was clearly being groomed for PG duty, until he apparently failed to commit and Self signed Dotson.
Vick at PG is who you swing for the fence with—who you risk everything on at PG to hold MUA at PG every game of the tourney to try to win a ring.
Charlie is who you compromise with hoping Dotson will mature into a solid, very talented 20 mpg backup to Charlie (like Sherron was for RussRobb) and hope Grimes and Vick make 39% from trey and you ride your bigs. It’s the conservative play unless Grimes, Doke, and Dedrick are a murderers row like Chalmers/Rush/Shady. Dotson also has to be willing to stay a second season to make it work also.
A perimeter of PG Vick, 3 Grimes, and 2 Garrett/Dotson would be unstoppable in D1. It would likely hold MUA every game at all spots.
Rings or titles?
Which does Self want to play for?
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Vick did not play PG last season at all. Graham was the primary PG and averaged almost 38 mpg and when he was not playing PG, his primary back up was Newman and even Svi would bring the ball up the court occasionally as did Garret but not Vick. If Vick would have shown any potential to play PG, Coach Self would not have played Devonte as much as he did.
Take a look at the Dotson videos, he is one of the faster if not the fastest PG in a recent memory. He might not be a OAD (but he could well be) but perhaps a TAD. If one of those two is not available, Grimes would be the next choice; he played PG for the U19 National team coached by Self and he made the All-Tournament team and was named the Tournament MVP. Grimes is perhaps the most complete and ready to the next level play KU has had in a long time.
The backcourt will be primarily Moore, Dotson Grimes and Garret and Vick will share time with K. J. at the wing/SF and he might slide to SG when they are both in the same lineup, depending on matchups but I just don’t see Vick playing PG at all when there is a better role for him and 4 quality player available and better suited to the PG position.
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KUSTEVE said:
@jaybate-1.0 I don’t see Dotson going to the NBA for at least two years. Such is life for the short guys.
There was an excellent article last week addressing just that - that the NBA’s smallest guys are getting bigger, making it tougher for smaller guys to succeed in the pros.
That’s also bad news for the career prospects of a guy like Frank Mason, who is certainly on the small side for an NBA player. According to the article I linked to, 6-2.25 is the average size for an NBA PG.
Dotson is listed as either 6-1 or 6-2, depending on who you read, so likely a little below average size for an NBA PG. That doesn’t mean he can’t make it in the NBA. It does mean that it will be that much more of a challenge for him to make it in the NBA.
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@justanotherfan He’ll have to develop a trey gun to go to the pros. Everything else is right there. I think he’ll play a ton this year.
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Vick rested Graham during play many times a game, same as Devonte used to do for Frank. Vick also initiated from wing point, same as Devonte used to do for Frank. Next.
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5 star/OADs have to be given 20mpg and start, or there is recruiting blowback downstream, so Dotson WILL likely get 20 mpg somewhere. It’s a much bigger step to 30-35 mpg with the keys. Odds are he won’t make that next step, unless he is an OAD type, or willing to commit to two seasons. Self has to groom someone for PG for the following season, as he always does, by either giving him 15-20 mpg, as a backup PG, or by starting him as a domestique at the two.
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We must have watched different games.
More to the point, why would Coach Self play Vick at the PG when he has 4 player, 5 if you count K. J., that have proven they can play PG? Is not like he need to groom Vick for next season, right?
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The PG rotation is Dotson/Moore (or Moore/Dotson if you prefer) followed by Grimes and Garrett (probably in that order).
The wing rotation is Grimes, Vick, KJ, Garrett, Agbaji, mixed and matched to your preference.
The big rotation is Dedric, Doke, KJ, De Sousa, Big Dave, Mitch, also mixed and matched to your preference.
Agbaji is probably the odd man out on the perimeter. Mitch is probably odd man out inside.
That gives us a rotation of Moore, Dotson, Grimes, Vick, Garrett, KJ, Dedric, Doke, De Sousa, with Big Dave getting spot minutes inside, and either Garrett or one of the PGs getting short minutes on the perimeter.
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Agreed. The only one I have a question mark is Lightfoot. If you saw video of summer practice/scrimmages, he has been hitting the 3 extremely well and might move from being the odd man out to the ace in the hole.
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@JayHawkFanToo We’re going to need two basketballs. How Bill is going to manage minutes will be flat crazy.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
We must have watched different games.
More to the point, why would Coach Self play Vick at the PG when he has 4 player, 5 if you count K. J., that have proven they can play PG? Is not like he need to groom Vick for next season, right?
We watched the same games. You’re just struggling squaring what you saw with what you want to believe.
Outside of avoiding OAD blow back, why would Self start anyone but Vick, who is the only one with even intermittent experience running the team for 30+ games and a deep run in the Carney giving Devonte 5-10 mpg on floor rests?
If it weren’t for recruiting blowback risk with putting Dotson behind Vick (or anyone else), we prolly wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Remember how long it has taken UK OAD 1s to get the hang of D1 running Cal’s high school offense? And you’re not saying the 5-11 Dotson is the equivalent of John Wall, or the other UK OAD 1s, right? Or are you? In any case, there is a little more to Self ball than hop, skip and jump at UK.
Why do you insist on putting this crazy level of expectation and responsibility on Dotson. He’s a good recruit deserving of a chance to develop. Cut him some slack.
For Self to start and play Dotson 30-35 mpg this season, it looks like Self would have to kiss his conference title run goodbye.
Best case for Dotson seems a 20/20 split with Charlie.
But man, why settle for that when you can have a proven D1 guy Self has been grooming for PG for 2-3 years for 30-40 mpg? Except for his funk stretch, Vick was often almost as much of a man of steel as Devonte.
I just don’t see any logic in your thinking here at all. And I’ve tried hard to see what you might be thinking.
Not saying Self won’t compromise and go the 20/20 with Charlie and Dotson to avoid OAD blowback and play just to win another conference title, while hoping 6 bigs lets him foul and defend his way to 30+ Ws.
Saying I can’t find even a micron fiber’s width shred of logic to your position.
No offense though.
Just saying, as you like to just say.
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First, every publication I have seen and the KU website list Dotson as 6’2” not 5’11” as you wrote.
Second, I have yet to find any publication that indicates Vick ever played or will play PG at KU, he didn’t play that position before and now, with 4 players capable of playing PG, he will not play that position this season either; he will get decent minutes as SG or wing but not nearly as many as he did last season with a serious undermanned team. See @justanotherfan post above, he lists the same 4 players I did as playing PG as do all publication I read. Maybe you can find one that backs your point?
Third, I did not say Dotson will play 30 mpg; in fact, I indicated that Moore will likely start the season at the PG although Dotson might as the season progresses. Dedric and Grimes are the only players that might play 30 mpg, all the rest will have to share playing time.
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KU inches.
Next.
What did Vick do all last season, while Devonte was resting on the floor? Did KU somehow magically operate on mental telepathy from Devonte, or Self?
Next.
Why do you persist in this antic endeavor of pretending Vick was not doing the domestique 2 guard role same as Devonte did and same as Frank did before taking over the point? Are you really trying to make yourself think he didn’t? Why? It’s such an odd thing to try to make yourself think—such an odd disconnect. Vick has on the job training and grooming of the kind that Frank, a 2 in high school, and Devonte a 1 in high school, received the years before they took over the point. Heck, add Tyshawn. Add Elijah. You appear waaaaaaaaaay out there on this. “Aw, how does it feel, with no direction home, like a rollin’ Stone…” It feels a little strange to me, but I want to be as supportive as I can be. It’s the off season after all.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
KU inches
ESPN, Rivals, Scout, Sports Illustrated and every ranking publication list him ad 6’2”
Next.
What did Vick do all last season, while Devonte was resting on the floor? Did KU somehow magically operate on mental telepathy from Devonte, or Self?
He parked himself at the corner waiting for a pass from Newman (who was the primary PG backup or Garret or Svi to hit the open 3 or drive the baseline for a layup or dunk or cut for an alley oop.The one exception was the Washington game where he parked himself at the top of the key to take advantage of the Washington extended defense that left the paint open; he scored 28 points.
Next.
Why do you persist in this antic endeavor of pretending Vick was not doing the domestique 2 guard role same as Devonte did and same as Frank did before taking over the point? Are you really trying to make yourself think he didn’t? Why? It’s such an odd thing to try to make yourself think—such an odd disconnect. Vick has on the job training and grooming of the kind that Frank, a 2 in high school, and Devonte a 1 in high school, received the years before they took over the point. Heck, add Tyshawn. Add Elijah. You appear waaaaaaaaaay out there on this. “Aw, how does it feel, with no direction home, like a rollin’ Stone…” It feels a little strange to me, but I want to be as supportive as I can be. It’s the off season after all.
The reason he did not is because he is NOT a PG, he is not even a combo guard. He is a SG/wing. When Devonte was not directing the team, Newman was.
Next.
I see you still cannot find even one article, analysis or publication that backs up your claim. Until you find something…anything to back up your claim you will have to argue with yourself.
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@jaybate-1.0 I love you, man…but Vick has never played point guard.
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@KUSTEVE Makes it a bold prediction I suppose. Funny how some won’t make any predticitions, but are quick to shoot them down.
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UK’s team melts down after an early season loss to KU destroys their fragile psyche.
KU’s continued dominance of the Big12 gets at least one coach fired and brings about apathy at 3 other schools.
Kansas will hand Iowa State it’s keister so bad it’s fans will stop whining and start singing praises of the Jayhawks. (Realizing it’s better to give it your all and lose to the best than to cry about losing to a team you “should’ve beat”)
Higgins will don a KU t-shirt (that he burns on the court at half time)
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@dylans “Kansas will hand Iowa State it’s keister so bad it’s fans will stop whining and start singing praises of the Jayhawks. (Realizing it’s better to give it your all and lose to the best than to cry about losing to a team you “should’ve beat”)”
Yes, this type of adulation of dominant opponents always happens in sports!
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Let’s hope Vick has used all of his developing months working on his handles. We don’t need him at PG on offense (but he could be our BRush top of key defender in the championship game!).
Imagine if Vick’s handles matched his athleticism! Imagine Vick with an explosive first step! Imagine Vick blowing by everyone!
He really needs to improve his handles because he doesn’t get to take advantage of his athleticism with the ball because the ball can’t keep up with his speed.
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Back at you, he never has played point same as Frank hadn’t. But he did exactly what Tyshawn, Elijah, Frank and Devonte did the year before each took over the point. It’s just a fact.
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Of all of KU’s domestiques-both those like Frank and Tyshawn, without high school PG experience, and with it, like Elijah, and Devonte, and Sherron, Vick was most I’ll-suited to the mental flexibility required of the domestique 2 guard role. It was a super challenge for Vick to learn all the other jobs and help roles, and focus on going to iron every possession. The very aspects of Vick’s personal struggles last season are what could make him such a terrific PG with every game MUA on both ends all the way to the finals.
Most are questioning his handles, as they questioned Tyshawn’s. There would be similar growing pains if Vick were given the keys for sure, but there are going to be even bigger growing pains (or structural deficiencies) with all the other PG candidates; that is what everyone is underestimating.
Vick only has to work on his handles. The rest of his game is Final Four tested. The rest of the candidates have vastly more too learn on both ends than Vick does. Further, I suspect his handles only looked limited, because he was being asked to do so much other than handle than he had ever had to before.
All but Devonte among the domestique 2s have struggled with handles juggling at times the diversity of roles of the domestique 2. Except for 5-9 (non KU inches) Charlie, the rest of the point guard candidates have never started for a single season in D1. Marcus Garrett looked more deficient handling the ball last season than Vick. Grimes and Dotson have never played a second, when Blue Meanies were smashing them at D1 speeds. Who knows about their D1 handles? Really, Grimes and Dotson as freshman should be grateful if Self keeps them out of PG duty unless, it’s cup cake time. Garrett at PG? Are people vacationing in OREGON and spending all their time at the stores with green cross flags? Garrett couldn’t really sustain starting at any non PG slot last season. Board rats are just not remembering that starting at PG in highschool is not a free pass to start at PG in D1! And don’t even get me started on the freshmans’ learning curves on defense at point guard.
All of which brings us to Charlie. He has actually played PG for a season. Thus he merits consideration for starting, or backing up. But he is going to be 5-9 on defense every second he is on the floor? Is Charlie an explosive leaper and an unparalleled tough nut like Frank? Can he shoot like Frank? Can he anticipate on defense like Frank? Is the NBA going to find a slot for Charlie, as it has for Frank? Can Charlie bring 3/4s of what Frank and Devonte brought for 30-40 38 minute games? That’s what KU needs from short PGs even just to make good runs in March. Can Charlie seriously step in and meet or beat Frank, because short PGs at KU come up against future NBA PGs inevitably in March. Is everyone positive Charlie can hold his own against guys like KU’s recent point guards and ones drafted higher from UK, Duke, UNC, etc.?
Really, the more I look at Self’s options at PG, the more I think he has to gamble on developing Vick into 20 mpg at PG MINIMUM, if Self wants more than a conference title. It’s scary, because it would be unconventional and Vick doesn’t pass the eye test.
But Vick is the only PG candidate that is an athletic freak with back court FF experience, very good D, decent protection, and a potential 40% trey, ready this season.
I say swing for the ring and rely on 6 bigs an Grimes at 2/3 to cover up Vick’s learning curve.
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@jaybate-1.0 We’ll deem it a “BOLD PREDICTION”.
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@dylans There ya go.
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Ok, we’ve narrowed our point guard down to 6 different people…now I’m going blow your mind…
WELCOME TO KU BASKETBALL : HOME OF THE POINT FORWARD !!!
MAY I INTRODUCE OUR NEW POINT FORWARD…DEDRIC LAWSON…
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I enjoyed your lengthy explanation.
I think right now (actually a few months ago) Vick should be focusing on his future. What position can he play at the next level?
His athleticism is nice at the D1 level. I don’t think he is anything unique with his athleticism in the NBA. Then size, durability, and skill set really decide if a guy like Vick can play at that level. Then add in aspects like matchups and being fortunate to play for a team where they need his specific potential.
Yes… it would be really something to see Vick mastered in the skills required at PG. PG will always be a position in the NBA where he won’t have a size disadvantage.
The one thing I think all of us can agree on… Vick needs to improve his handles. And that then leads to other areas… like being able to create scoring space… like having a blistering crossover move… developed slash moves… All these areas really squeeze into the “handles” tag.
And then there is the question about his hunger. Vick needs to develop more of a “Type A” persona. Maybe it is there already, but masked under other issues… like self-esteem and just needing to grow up more. I do believe he is a very good person and he’s had to deal with the same issues most young people have to go through at that age; what is his identity?
One thing I know about him is that we haven’t really experienced ANY of his real athleticism! Another thing I know is Bill Self isn’t going to stop any young person from going for their dream! If Vick has his mind set on being the next KU PG and makes basketball his 24/7 religion from here on out, who knows?
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I have always liked the idea of point forward, since Bird showed it could be done from 4.
Magic was at times a point forward, depending on who Riles ran with him on the perimeter in LA.
If Dedrick can run the car, give HIM the keys!!!
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Vick is a long shot cuz he left for a time.
You’re right about whatever happens with Vick coming down to whether he can develop unity of purpose and get comfortable with mates. His basketball future depends on NOW! He might not be up to the challenge, or Self might not trust him.
But bottom line he has less to learn than anyone but Charlie, and he’s 6-2 or so, not 5-9.
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I believe this is where Self is probably under-appreciated as a coach.
He left the door open to Vick. He gave him a second chance. This is what Self is all about… his players!
Self checks his ego at the door and focuses on life for his players. This may be his strongest quality as a coach! He mentors players!
I’m not putting expectations on Vick this year. It’s all up to him. The sky is the limit, but only Vick can decide his outcome.
And I hope Vick knows Jayhawk fans are there for him, too! No one has given up on him!
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drgnslayr said:
I believe this is where Self is probably under-appreciated as a coach.
He left the door open to Vick. He gave him a second chance. This is what Self is all about… his players!
Self checks his ego at the door and focuses on life for his players. This may be his strongest quality as a coach! He mentors players!
I’m not putting expectations on Vick this year. It’s all up to him. The sky is the limit, but only Vick can decide his outcome.
And I hope Vick knows Jayhawk fans are there for him, too! No one has given up on him! ————————
This should be on the mast head of this site.
In the Boothe Hall.
On the wall of the practice locker room.
At the base of his statue next to Forrest one day.
You have come as near the heart of why I am a KU BASKETBALL fan as I can come here.
Self is a hard man.
He has a relentless needle.
He can finesse most six ways from Sunday.
He puts players in the most difficult out-of-position situations imaginable.
He can be too stubborn.
He can refuse to ever play the deserving and hard working, if another player under another scheme can take the team’s and program’s potential to be their best even a micron more.
He can cut any player, crony, or friend loose, if the team, or program would be better off.
But my how unsparingly fair the man is!!!
My how far he will go for players that he believes the team and program needs.
My how he enables them to get better.
My how he helps those with the necessary talents that commit fully to the team grow in every way possible!!!
My how he does not let TPTB bully him, or break him.
My what resilience he has.
My how willing he is to introduce players to the harsh reality that the world of the have nots faces routine unfairness all the way to the top and survives and excels on commitment and hardwork and synergies of team.
My how he walks the talk that he can’t coach want to and basics after year 1 and that players have to take responsibility.
And my how he gives those giving it everything they’ve got second chances.
But no third chances.
If you can’t learn from mistakes, you may as well not come to Kansas.
Self will drive you till you make them, so you CAN learn from them.
But fail to learn from mistakes and you lack the criterion he looks for and insists on.
Self is clearly annoyed with and finally unwilling to support those that will not learn from mistakes. He realizes some insights and skills take more reps than others to acquire, but in the end Self is a mentor teaching players a hard lesson that is deeply true in life: get better, or get gone.
It results in some players—some jerks, but all some really good guys—that he decides he cannot and will not help. It’s tragic to watch, but there is a tragic dimension to life, whether we like it or not. It is only bearable to watch, because Self does appear to give players their shot. It may not be as big of a shot as we wish, or think some players deserve, but it’s a shot, and in this cold cruel world, how lucky one is to get any shot at all.
(Note: Sam Cunliffe was right. They did not see eye to eye and that’s enough. They were men about it and I am sure they will be men about it. Self could have queered his shot in Evansville and apparently didn’t. Life is about getting and making the most of shots that come along. It takes lots of shots.)
But it has been amazing how many Self HAS helped!!! How many guys no other elite program sniffed at that Self gave a shot and created the conditions for a shot and getting better. Frank Mason is the most successful example, but a guy like Conner Teahan was just as remarkable at a lower level of ceiling. He hung around and hung around as a shooter and then miraculously contributed as a scrambling, indispensible sixth man to a team even shallower than Frank’s that went even deeper than Frank’s. Conner Teahan, when no one but Self believed in him, came to a team’s and a coach’s rescue and enabled it to make a run at a ring all the way to the second half against one of the greatest NCAA teams of all time in 2012. Conner and Frank were just two of many of these improbable successes that Self’s mentoring and development enable. There are many more.
It has been amazing how many guys that did and didn’t pass the eye tests that Self has helped become unexpectedly well rounded contributors to fine teams and helped mature into apparently more well-rounded, effective human beings in the years after; and that is for me the difference between just a winner, and a great coach.
Self is a great coach, at a very tough time to be one.
Go, Bill, go!!!
