HEM: Semi-Regular Observations
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@JayHawkFanToo What about the one entitled “Anquan Boldin and Malcolm Jenkins speak at congressional forum on community-police relations. For the second time in six months, NFL players visit Capitol Hill to push for change”
That sounds like doing something off the field to me.
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You also need to re-read my post in which I already indicated that many players do great community/charity work so there is no need to lecture me on something I readily acknowledged on my original post. All the links except one about ride alongs are about charity work and most about basketball players.
The “football” players protest was not and is not about charity but about the claim that police kill black people indiscriminately and I don’t see much being done by the players to address this particular issue.
Maybe you took the time read the one article I cited and would care to comment on it?
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@JayHawkFanToo ah, but you did admit it wasn’t about disrespecting the flag. I would never and my boys would never not stand for the NA. But, I’ve coached a lot of kids and witnessed 2 black kids on my team treated like pos! The other white kids were completely left alone. This was in Wisconsin. These 2 kids were as good as gold, so until you walk in someone’s shoes or have seen such injustice, maybe you can’t get it. Believe me, I asked for the manager of the place and let them have it. I have no place in my heart for people who are racist!
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No, that is not what I said. Unfortunately the protest chose to carry out their protest by disrespecting the flag on company time.
Racism and discrimination are the result of ignorance and abhorrent in all their forms and by anyone and should never be tolerated; I certainly do not condone or tolerate it. That is not to say that racism does not exist, it does, but the best way to defeat it is by education, teaching understanding and tolerance and not by one sided confrontation. I commend you for speaking out agains racism.
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@JayHawkFanToo I think where there seems a disconnect is that you aren’t acknowledging that the charity work these players are doing is in many ways directly attempting to address the problem of relationships between the black community and police. For example, this one from @justanotherfan s list:
http://themalcolmjenkinsfoundation.org/tag/community-service/
They are clearly trying to make a difference through channels they believe make a difference.
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@JayHawkFanToo I read the link you posted, and i think we can agree that systemic crime is a complicated thing, with many causes, and needs to be addressed from many angles. Certainly law enforcement needs to be a friend to the people and not positioned oppositionally, and that is why the charity work these athletes do can’t be understated. But it isnt everything.
This isn’t just about police violence against black people. It’s about profiling, and assumption of guilt, and about black Americans feeling safe.
Malcolm Jenkins, on why he raised his fist instead of kneeling:
“The reason I don’t kneel is not because I think it’s disrespectful. It’s because I think it’s misunderstood,” Jenkins said. “I want my demonstration to be effective and received. I think whatever that is is going to be to the individual, but everybody’s saying the same thing: We need change. We want to be that vehicle to change our communities, and we need to use the platform that we have to do that. So, hopefully, people can begin to listen to some of those issues.”
What’s so wrong about that? What does it say that people feel the need to break this mentality down and make it stop?
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I don’t need you to tell about the good work players do. My comment was about the protesting football players and most of your references are about basketball players.
For those who didn’t click through my links, I linked to three articles about Colin Kaepernick, 4 about Malcolm Jenkins, 2 about Marcus Peters, 1 about Brandon Marshall, 2 about Michael Bennett, 1 about Martellus Bennett and one about Arian Foster. I also linked to four articles each about Lebron James and Steph Curry.
So @JayHawkFanToo, that’s 14 articles about football players and 8 about basketball players. 14 is more than 8. Your statement was either outright false or at least misleading.
Again, this is what I wrote…
“If this issue is so important, I always wondered why is it that all these players that kneel on company time don’t do it on their own time? They have the money, resources and connections to set up events like town hall meetings or press conferences to discuss the issue outside the football field but I just don’t see this happening.”
The Kaepernick article about his donations shows the types of organizations he has supported, including organizations that work on things like fighting mass incarceration, assisting single mothers, mental health treatment for former inmates, and organizations combating police brutality.
Malcolm Jenkins and Anquan Boldin spoke to congress about police brutality.
Malcolm Jenkins’ foundation works with high school students in New Orleans to improve graduation rates and provide resources for under-resourced communities.
Jenkins also did a ride along with Philadelphia police.
Brandon Marshall met with Denver police to begin a dialogue between urban communities around Denver and the police.
Martellus Bennett and Michael Bennett donated all of their profits from 2017 jersey sales to after school programs and inner city garden projects, as well as inner city schools as a way of expanding education opportunities.
Kaepernick, Jenkins, Marshall and the Bennett brothers have been among the most consistent protesters.
Again, the articles I linked to addressed what you said specifically. Your statements were, again, either outright false, or at least misleading.
Now, maybe you can give your opinion on the article I cited.
I will give my opinion on the article you cited, but only after you acknowledge that the statements that you made, which I cited above, were either outright false, or at least misleading. Otherwise, you do not merit my response to your question.
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Is it me or is it getting hot in here? LOL
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@DoubleDD did you escape the 'nados in Iowa?
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8/1/18 - A march in Chicago against violence is scheduled in favor the poor and those victimized by rampant inner city violence. But where oh where are the black athletes that speak vehemently against the killing fields in our inner cities? Where are the black athletes challenging and demanding that young blacks stop the killing, maiming, robbing, and violent behavior in our inner cities? Where are the black athletes that actually demand personal responsibility among inner city blacks? Where are the black athletes that stand up for the victims of black inner city crime (ironically, the victims are mainly black)? Where are the black athletes demanding changes among their own race? Where are they? If the inner city black culture of violence doesn’t change, nothing will change. The baloney you see above is that of an apologist. One that favors victimhood over personal responsibility and accountability. One that will use “black power” as his avatar, but in the same breath makes post after post demonstrating the weakness of those that kneel and insult our nation. Real “black power” is looking inward and demanding change – personal responsibility. Not whining the whine of the perpetual victim. Just like the millions of blacks that aren’t in this inner city culture of violence, and who don’t buy the victim mentality – the ones that achieve. The ones that seize opportunity. Where are these wonderful black athletes? Do they stand up for the nightly victims of black inner city violence? No. They cower just as the leftists do. Blame others. It’s a convenient and pathetic exercise. They focus their efforts on a symptom of the inner city black culture, not the cause. I don’t want cops killing innocent people. But a sure fire way to decrease that chance is to have less need for contact with the police (Odd how that works). You know, when you there are crime ridden sh–holes, the innocent residents need protection. Otherwise, they die. Remember that. Without the police, innocent inner city blacks die at even a greater rate.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-lake-shore-drive-shutdown-protest-20180723-story.html
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Let’s start w/LeBron and his new school. Education. Please don’t get personal. I know you don’t care what anyone thinks, so I’m just asking. It’s very ugly.
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Again, you are conveniently changing the subject and showing mostly charity and contributions, something that I acknowledged in my original post. You listed a number of links but they refer to only a handful of individuals and not the 100s of players that actively participated on the football protest. This was the gist of my post that you conveniently ignore.
Lets go over some of the items…
The Kaepernick article about his donations shows the types of organizations he has supported, including organizations that work on things like fighting mass incarceration, assisting single mothers, mental health treatment for former inmates, and organizations combating police brutality.
And none shows where he attempted to reach out and start a dialog with the other side. Instead he insulted lae enforcement agencies and wore sock with pigs dressed as police men creating a greater divide instead. He also praised Castro and Che Guevara, two blood thirsty sociopaths that have done more to oppress people including black and along with North Korea represent the most repressive regimes in the world and whose security forces make the worst alleged police crimes look like a walk in the park. I know this first hand. This is the epitome of hypocrisy when you condemn institution that, while not perfect, are by and large good and praise a totalitarian regime that is orders of magnitude more oppressive, repressive and bloody. Google “El paredon Cuba” and you will learn first hand what a real repressive regime is like.
Malcolm Jenkins and Anquan Boldin spoke to congress about police brutality.
Excellent, there is one that wants to make a difference although change will not come from congress where members are more interested in their own welfare and r-election that solving issues.
Malcolm Jenkins’ foundation works with high school students in New Orleans to improve graduation rates and provide resources for under-resourced communities.
Great work, but how is this addressing the issue at hand?
Jenkins also did a ride along with Philadelphia police.
Excellent. I posted on different thread before that everybody should do this one time to understand what being a police officer is like. I did one and I now how a lot more admiration and respect for the work they do.
Brandon Marshall met with Denver police to begin a dialogue between urban communities around Denver and the police.
Again, excellent and a good step toward finding common ground and a solution to the problem.
Martellus Bennett and Michael Bennett donated all of their profits from 2017 jersey sales to after school programs and inner city garden projects, as well as inner city schools as a way of expanding education opportunities.
Great charity work that I acknowledged before but does not address the police or flags issues.
So we have what…a small handful of players, 3? 4? 5? addressing the issue? Where are the rest of the hundreds that protested during games? I can post 100 links about 3 or 4 people and it is still about 3 or 4 people and not 100, right?
If every one of the players involved would go to his home town and organize a town hall meeting with police and local residents and organizations then we would to see the intent of wanting to find a solution and maybe the beginning of one but I have not seen that. Having the issue appears to be more important than finding the solution.
Now perhaps you will address the article I originally cited although I am not holding my breath.
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@JayHawkFanToo https://www.sbnation.com/2017/9/29/16375378/nfl-players-charity-donations-jj-watt-hurricane-harvey-patrick-peterson-foundation
Don’t forget many White players knelt to support their teammates
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I should also include @wissox. So many educators are working in the inner cities and so underpaid. @wissox choses to do this.
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I am a lawyer. Because of that, I read and analyze things a certain way.
Your first statement, which I refuted with a few minutes on Google was as follows:
I know of many players that quietly do a lot of outstanding community work without looking or asking for the limelight or credit but the more vocal protesters do nothing.
You even wrote it in bold so it would stand out.
So I looked up the most vocal protesters - Colin Kaepernick, Malcolm Jenkins, the Bennett brothers, Brandon Marshall, plus Marcus Peters for some local flavor - and posted links that I found after doing a simple Google search about stories of them doing community service.
You attempted to respond in two ways. First you tried to re-frame your statement, saying you were talking not about community work, but work focused specifically on the police violence issue. You said:
Here, I was talking about discussing the issue at the center of the protest, not charity work,
That would have been a good argument, except that, as you yourself had to admit
Malcolm Jenkins and Anquan Boldin spoke to congress about >police brutality.
Excellent, there is one that wants to make a difference although change will not come from congress where members are more interested in their own welfare and r-election that solving issues.
I can’t help that Congress is lousy. They make our laws. These players went to try and make change happen, which was something you specifically said they did not do.
Jenkins also did a ride along with Philadelphia police.
Excellent. I posted on different thread before that everybody should do this one time to understand what being a police officer is like. I did one and I now how a lot more admiration and respect for the work they do.
Brandon Marshall met with Denver police to begin a dialogue between urban communities around Denver and the police.
Again, excellent and a good step toward finding common ground and a solution to the problem.
These were things I directed you to. Yet, you said in your initial response that I hadn’t cited any of that work.
You also said that:
I don’t need you to tell about the good work players do. My comment was about the protesting football players and most of your references are about basketball players.
That was easy to dispel because, well, math.
These were false or misleading statements that I called you on, but that you don’t want to acknowledge.
You then tried the old tactic of moving the goal posts, claiming that you were talking about all protesters, not just the “more vocal protesters”:
So we have what…a small handful of players, 3? 4? 5? addressing the issue? Where are the rest of the hundreds that protested during games? I can post 100 links about 3 or 4 people and it is still about 3 or 4 people and not 100, right?
There were a number of players that met with the NFL regarding donations and charity work to address this issue. You can find stories about that here, here and here.
But that doesn’t change the fact that this is not what you initially said. A timeline:
- You said “the more vocal protesters do nothing”
- I disproved your statement
- You claim I didn’t address your initial statement, and said I provided more links to basketball players.
- Several other posters on this board point out that the links I posted address those concerns.
- I point out that 14 is more than 8.
- You claim that it’s not just the more vocal protesters, but all protesters.
It sad, honestly. If we were two opposing lawyers dealing with an issue in court and that same scenario played out as I listed above, you would likely be in line to be informally admonished by the court, or possibly formally sanctioned.
It’s okay to be wrong if you own up to it. It’s not okay to be wrong and change the topic.
So, given that, are you now ready to acknowledge that your statements were either outright false, or at least misleading, or will we continue to have to wait?
I do have a response about that article, by the way. But it can wait.
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Once again. In my original post I did mentioned about players that do charity work precisely because I wanted to concede that and did not want to mix the charity or community work with the stated reason for the protest. My point about the more vocal protesters is that they do not do much about what they are protesting, i.e the alleged one side killing of black people by the police. If it was not clear in my first post I repeated the same thing again in every post since then and you keep merging the two issues which was not at all my intent. Basketball players are not even part of the conversation because the protest took place on the football field and not on the basketball court.
You can spin it any way you want but I have consistently maintained the same point and did agree with you about some of the things a few out of hundreds of players involved are doing to address the issue in question, namely killing of black people by the police but it does not fit your narrative and you keep steering back to what it does. I get it. You just don’t want to address the items in the article I cited so you accuse me of changing the gist of my post and use it as an excuse not to address it…it’s ok, you really don’t have to do it and don’t need an excuse.
This horse has been beaten to death…
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I nominate @jayballer73 to be the judge of this raft between @JayHawkFanToo and @justanotherfan. May the odds forever be in your favor lol
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By Dr. Seuss From The Sneetches and Other Stories Copyright 1961 by Theodor S. and Audry S. Geisel:
One day, making tracks In the prairie of Prax,
Came a North-Going Zax And a South-Going Zax.
And it happened that both of them came to a place
Where they bumped. There they stood.
Foot to foot. Face to face.
“Look here, now!” the North-Going Zax said, “I say!
You are blocking my path. You are right in my way.
I’m a North-Going Zax and I always go north.
Get out of my way, now, and let me go forth!”
“Who’s in whose way?” snapped the South-Going Zax.
“I always go south, making south-going tracks.
So you’re in MY way! And I ask you to move
And let me go south in my south-going groove.”
Then the North-Going Zax puffed his chest up with pride.
“I never,” he said, “take a step to one side.
And I’ll prove to you that I won’t change my ways
If I have to keep standing here fifty-nine days!”
“And I’ll prove to YOU,” yelled the South-Going Zax,
“That I can stand here in the prairie of Prax
for fifty-nine years! For I live by a rule
That I learned as a boy back in South-Going School.
Never budge! That’s my rule.
Never budge in the least!
Not an inch to the west!
Not an inch to the east!
I’ll stay here, not budging!
I can and I will
If it makes you and me
and the whole world stand still!”
Well…Of course the world didn’t stand still. The world grew.
In a couple of years, the new highway came through
And they built it right over those two stubborn Zax
And left them there, standing un-budged in their tracks.
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kjayhawks said:
I nominate @jayballer73 to be the judge of this raft between @JayHawkFanToo and @justanotherfan. May the odds forever be in your favor lol
UMMMM - - - NOPE -lol - -not gonna get mixed up in this lol - - heck probably if I said anything they would BOTH turn on me lol - -gonna let those dogs run and hunt leave them alone lol. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Thanks for the break from the summer doldrums!
White privilege is misunderstood in my view. On the one hand Obama proves a black man can be elected to the highest office. That was a great event for many of my older African American friends. But a black woman, a few heartbeats from the presidency in Condeleeza Wright gets stopped in a Texas airport walking with the presidential party a few years back by some dolt who assumed she didn’t belong with Bush because of her skin color.
Schools have been desegregated yet they’re still obscenely segregated, most often by race, but sometimes by class as well. If you’re not sure how this matters, a simple tour of facilities would suffice. Visit the athletic complex in your average suburban HS and then find the athletic complex, if it exists, in the underserved communities. The contrast is striking. I’ve seen light polls erupt in flames, and a single bulb explode and fall into the stands with spectators. The brightness of stadium lights, soccer pitches with large mudholes vs. playing on turf fields. Inside the hallways, I had 10 principals in 11 years. I’ll let you guess which type of school that was. Teacher turnover leads to despair among poor students. Not happening out in the whiter areas generally. This is the issue I care most about.
The protest you mentioned today in Chicago. It’s way more about the economic disparity between Chicago’s north side and it’s south and west side. You have to understand something about the evils of redlining which created segregated neighborhoods. When someone is prevented the ability to own a home in a decent neighborhood several things happen. There’s a divide between classes and races. Owning property is a way families develop a legacy for children that someday they can own or benefit from. Simply put, it creates wealth of varying degrees.
Read the book Evicted. This is a great expose on a sometimes necessary but oftentimes evil practice that obviously impacts the underserved in our cities and suburbs.
National anthem? Sorry, but some of the stuff I’ve read here bothers me. Just because the rich athlete didn’t suffer the injustice doesn’t mean they shouldn’t protest does it? By that logic no rich, successful people can protest, speak out, etc. Totally harmless but effective protest. I thought our country stood for that.
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Just Mercy by Brian Stephenson is a startling book about the inequities in capital murder cases in Alabama. Even among criminals there’s white privilege.
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@wissox your kids are blessed to have you!
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8/3/18 The Kansas City Star runs another media hit job on a conservative, attacking Kris Kobach. But this is a much larger issue than Kobach. It’s how it is done that is the problem. Let me illustrate the problem. The KC Star runs an editorial claiming that Kobach is “not fit to serve.” An EDITORIAL. Editorials are just that. The opinion of the Editorial board. May not like it, but it’s clearly opinion and clearly under the editorial section. However, the KC Star also runs a front page story attacking Kobach less than a week ahead of the primary - that corresponds to the publication of the editorial. The alleged “news” is moving in lockstep with the “editorial.” That is the problem. The reason the news media is viewed as the “enemy” by conservatives is quite simple - The mainstream news media blatantly favors the democrats and the left, while claiming that they are objectively “reporting” the news. They make their opinion, the news. It is comical that folks attack Fox News. If Fox News leans right, then we must be clear ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC lean left. The overwhelming weight of the media leans very much left. But the left demeans folks that watch Fox as “drones” as we see above, or in other ways. Same way they’d refer to Rush Limbaugh, as if those folks are robots. It’s a typical leftist tactic. The news reported on Trump is nearly 90% negative by many reports. Look, I know. The media has always been left leaning. But this gets me to an important point that I started above related to the KC Star – the media is now couching its “opinion” as news. With the KC Star, one obvious area is immigration. The KC Star will run front page stories on immigrants, their sob stories, run front page photos, follow an immigration hearing of a professor here illegally. All because they favor open borders and open immigration. They refuse to run stories with front page placement, and proper headlines, on the other side of that story. They will place stories on the front page with headlines that are noted as “commentary” – which is opinion, not news. Importantly, they phrase headlines to influence opinion – to play up their view, or diminish the position they disagree with. Not to report news objectively. So they choose to run an attack piece on Kobach, who is obvious rigid on the immigration issue. During the court case related to Trump’s immigration policy (which he won at the Supreme Court), the KC Star and the rest of the media refused to report on his most powerful arguments (that the statute/law was undeniably clear). They would bury the arguments deep in the story. This is propaganda couched in objectivity. This is why the media is the enemy to conservatives. Look where the “media” and it’s member give money for campaigns. I personally favor a media that challenges those in authority. The problem is, when a liberal/leftist is the one in authority, the media shades its reporting, crafts its headlines, diminishes its aggressiveness. The mainstream media is the enemy of conservatives. The media nearly unanimously refuses to report on the violence of the left against conservatives. And at the height of its hypocrisy, the media continues to fawn over women who are “leftists” but attack women on the right. Women in power on the right are not admired by the media as they do on the left. They attack them. It is why the media is the enemy. The media is the enemy because the media controls information. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube,and other media target conservatives, limit opinion, and seize accounts, while permitting the leftist opinions a much wider range of freedom of expression. The only folks that deny the overwhelming bias and purposeful promulgation of propaganda by the mainstream media are folks that are blinded by they viewpoint (intentionally or otherwise).
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A couple of observations.
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@wissox is doing some tremendous work in the education system. Inner city schools are often strapped for resources at every level, from books and lab equipment to sports facilities. It takes a special person to work in that environment, and @wissox is clearly one of those people. Thank you for what you do!
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The reason I am so passionate about police violence against African Americans is because every time I see one of these situations I know that it could very well be me. Many on this board would argue against that, but several of these incidents that led to the shootings occurred during otherwise routine traffic stops(studies show that minorities are stopped at a higher rate than whites, and searched at a higher rate than whites, even though those searches turn up contraband less frequently than when whites are searched). I’ve been stopped by the police more times than I care to count, so I know what it’s like to be in that situation, where I know that the officer can shoot me dead, then claim he feared for his life, and no one will ever be held accountable for my murder, like Philando Castille.
Pointing to black on black crime doesn’t solve this. When black on black crime occurs, someone can be held accountable for the crime. When police violence occurs, NO ONE is held accountable. The current Department of Justice is getting rid of the department that investigated police departments. There is no interest in holding anyone accountable for these things. That makes it much different than crime, which is being actively investigated and punished.
And that is why I (and many others) speak out against this. If officers were being held accountable, there would be far less outcry. But officers are rarely even charged in these situations. Even when they are dismissed from one police department for potentially inappropriate behavior, they often just get a job at another police department because many law enforcement agencies will accept a resignation, even under bad circumstances, and allow an officer to leave without making a permanent note in the officer’s personnel file.
Think of it this way - if a day care worker was mistreating children, you would not want that worker to simply be able to resign from a position at one day care facility and move across town, or to the next county, or across the state line, and immediately get a job at another day care facility. Studies have shown that the overwhelming majority of complaints regarding officers focus on a handful of officers. Most police officers are not bad. Let me repeat that since some on this board think I am anti-police.
MOST POLICE OFFICERS ARE NOT BAD
In fact, I would do so far as to say the majority are good officers trying to do their jobs the right way. The problem is that many departments refuse to eliminate the worst officers from the force, instead soiling the dignity and reputation of their good officers to protect the bad ones. Why are we, as a society, okay with this?
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Good post on the media. I generally have chafed for 30 years over the biased media. However, media has evolved to where the internet is now mainstream media. You can get whatever news and commentary there that you want. And it goes without saying you can find whatever you want to support your particular view point.
It always cracks me up when you read on FB some shared post that starts out, “The media won’t report this” and then it goes on to report on some supposedly damaging story about a politician who breaks the mold on what they’re supposed to be doing. I respond to that with “how did you learn about it then if the media didn’t report it?”
You said “The KC Star will run front page stories on immigrants, their sob stories” You accuse the media of bias, but there’s a lot of bias right in that statement, isn’t there? I worked with a lot of immigrants from Central America when I was living in Baton Rouge. These were not sob stories in my view. These were kids escaping the most extreme violence on earth. Read about San Pedro Sula, Honduras someday. Most violent large city on the planet. I’ll tell you then about two girls in my classroom who had to get out of there. They were great young ladies, didn’t speak any English, but worked hard in class every day. But some people will cheer when or if they get deported. That would be a sob story. I don’t know if they were here legally or not. They didn’t need to be there, in Honduras.
Trump unfortunately gives the MSM plenty of ammo in their battles against him. His outlandish statements, immoralities, etc sway Americans away from his accomplishments which you started talking about in your original post.
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@wissox We can’t save everyone. At least not all at once. And that is why I am so against illegal immigration.
Illegal immigration is a problem to me, because by letting in anyone, we are undermining a system of those who follow the rules. Of allowing us a vetting process of any sort. And that is what bothers me the most. Good people are not getting the opportunity they deserve because other people are doing the wrong thing.
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@Kcmatt7 Hi Matt, I know we can’t save everyone. Can you imagine telling someone in great need that however? I can’t.
I never said let everyone in, however, by letting in people in danger in other places is just and humane. This country has plenty of land for growth. There’s room for more. If you don’t believe me look at China! 1.3 billion people crammed into a country the same size as our 48 contiguous states. We have room for a billion more people!
Another interesting aspect on the immigration issue is how many unfilled jobs there are in some industries now. My Cuz in law has a major landscaping company in Pittsburgh, PA, not Kansas! Long tradition there, highly respected in the community for their work. He’s had to dedicate an employee just to hiring because so many people who would fill his positions have been deported. This is true all over the bread basket. Certain manufacturing jobs are going unfilled partially because of anti immigration policies.
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If it is simply a matter of not wanting to tolerate the fact that “illegals” broke the law, I wonder how many immigration hardliners cut off their friendships with people they know who falsify their tax reporting? Hey, right wing: if you think someone named Carlos or Juanita is a crook for entering illegally, why are conservatives not leading the charge against major tax cheat Manafort? Why is the president whining his buddy Paul is being treated worse than Al Capone, and pardoning his rich friends for their crimes?
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@mayjay you’re doing the same thing as someone point to black on black crime when the topic is police brutality.
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@wissox you just can’t tell everyone yes. Even in great need. Someone has to be strong enough to say no at some point.
Honestly, I’m ok bringing in as many people as we have jobs for and want to work. I just want them paying taxes and at least being accounted for. If it were my decision, I’d be handing out work visa’s like they were f-ing candy.
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@Kcmatt7 It is not the same at all. I am talking about people who justify deporting someone living a peaceful productive life by pontificating, “They are here illegally. A crime is a crime. Period.” But they are not absolutists when it comes to income tax cheating, which is rampant. I knew a guy who had had a pool cleaning business in Hollywood who collected his fees in cash and proudly told me how he saved so much in taxes because he only reported half of it. His drug use was legendary. He always stopped every conversation about immigration by talking about how the “(effing) Mexicans” needed to be kicked out for breaking our laws. In other words, there is a principle involved of law and order, just not one that applies to anyone else except illegals.
The problem with saying the protestors should look to b-on-b crime as a greater harm to blacks than police brutality is that the argument misses the point entirely: the protestors are attempting to bring attention to, and to stop, decades of official sanction of abuse and violence perpetrated by the people whose job it is to prevent and solve crimes, not commit them. A community has felt targeted by agents of the state and ignored when challenging that until recently as the video evidence has become overwhelming. Anyone who thinks all members of a race have to rein in any criminals in their midst before they have the right to protest officials and officers commiting crimes is a fool.
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@mayjay Why is one an absolutist issue but not the other?
I could spin the B on B argument the same way you did. Which is what people do when they argue B on B crime in the Police Brutality argument. People who make this argument say, “why is one black death more important than the other? If you believe that violence on black people is an issue than you should focus on B on B crime because it is more rampant. Not Police Brutality.”
To which you just responded, they are separate issues. Which I agree on.
But you just made that same argument, basically. Paraphrasing:
“If you believe being an illegal immigrant is a crime that should be punished, this OTHER crime is rampant and you don’t say anything about it!!!” That’s what you just said. Which, replaced by B on B crime and Police brutality like mad lib book, it reads exactly the same. It is a comparison to a different issue.
The topic is illegal immigration. Which has nothing to do with current legalized citizens and their lack of paying taxes. Cracking down on that is it’s own issue that would have to be handled completely different. So comparing illegal immigration to income tax fraud really isn’t connected, at all. Unless of course you are trying to use a completely different topic in an argument in which it really has no business.
One issue starts with whether or not someone should even be in the country in the first place.
The other issue is whether or not someone claims the $599 jackpot they hit at the casino. Or the cash they took under the table. Or however they tweaked their taxes.
The only way that these two issues are related, is when talking about taxes specifically.
Otherwise, they are not the same topic one little bit. By arguing that “if you believe one is a crime than you should feel as passionate about all crime” you are missing the point of the argument that “conservatives” (I hate this because I have been on both sides of issues on this board and feel that I am about as moderate as anyone here). It is that illegal immigrants should have never been here in the first place. Whether they are living a peaceful and productive life or not. Which is that they are taking away that same opportunity for another person who actually followed the rules and would have been equally productive and peaceful. If not more likely to be more productive and peaceful… Did someone fudging their taxes take away another person’s opportunity because of it? How did that particular issue directly result in the altering of someone else’s life? You see, this is why they are different issues.
If you take an absolutist approach to anything, everyone ends up looking like a hypocrite.
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Yea I do. It was bad stuff. Marshalltown was hit really hard.
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@DoubleDD tell us, so sorry!
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Interesting that as a lawyer you presume guilt instead of innocence as our system of laws dictates. Maybe you should get all the facts before you jump to conclusions…don’t believe me, this comes straight from very well known liberal Alan Dershowitz. Apparently these charges were brought up before and none other than Rod Rosenstein exonerated him.](https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/08/judge-napolitano-doubles-down-says-paul-manafort-was-exonerated-8-years-ago-may-call-rosenstein-as-first-witness-video/)
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@JayHawkFanToo (1) You might want to read the testimony of his accountant and tax preparer of the past 2 days. How could he be exonerated 8 years ago for falsifying documents to obtain loans in 2016, and filing false returns for 2015? (1-a) Dershowitz is an idiot at times. (2) I am a lawyer. You aren’t, as far as I know, although you do make lots of pronouncements about the law. Those facts do not have anything to do with my ability to read trial reports. Please do not tell me how I am supposed to view things since I have no role other than as a citizen. I I were a juror, I would be instructed not to draw conclusions until deliberating, etc etc etc. But I am not. I am under no duty to presume innocence. It is a misconception to think the public is obligated to presume innocence of anyone–it is a legal presumption intended only to determine the burden of proof is on the prosecution to present sufficient evidence to overcome that presumption beyond a reasonable doubt. It applies only to decision-makers. As a spectator (meaning not a participant) I have read testimony that to me looks like clear evidence of guilt. But I am aware this is just the prosecution. So, if that evidence is clearly rebutted, I will change my mind. (3) I assume by keeping an open mind you mean like the president, who has pronounced before trial that PM is being railroaded?
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@DoubleDD Sorry to hear about the twisters. We used to drive from KC to Waterloo, Iowa to see my grandparents in the 60s and 70s. Went through Marshalltown, Traer, Tama…all types of towns both northeast and southwest of Des Moines before I-35 was completed. (One stretch of 2-lane highway in northern Missouri was called the deadliest 20 miles of highway in the country.)
Funny family legend involving the late great unintentional comedienne, my Mom: In Marshalltown, we always stopped at this one restaurant both going up on Friday and going back home Sunday night. It was the only thing open. On a Friday night once, my mother ordered a Rueben sandwich that was thoroughly horrible. On Sunday, she ordered it again. Then, when it was also bad, she got something else. We asked why she invited such misery.
Mom: “It was so bad on Friday that I just didn’t think it was possible for them to make it that bad again. I was wrong!”
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That is a great story made me laugh. I’m ok but man some Iowans got hit hard my friend.
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@Kcmatt7 Well good, you’re not totally heartless!
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@mayjay You know the best thing to come out of Missouri? I-35 and I-70.
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As a matter of fact, I have read extensive reports of the accountant and bookkeeper testimony. Interesting that the accountant that makes $400K per year and took direct responsibility for many of the issues was not charged at all and instead granted immunity the same immunity granted to Gates, Manafort’s assistant, who according to the accountant and bookkeeper provided most of the guidance and information directly. The accountant and bookkeeper provided little in the way of proof and a lot of what they testified was about things they though were not right but had no proof one way or another.
The trial has barely started and you have already labeled him a “tax cheat.” As an attorney and a citizen should you not wait until he is convicted? If you were part of the jury pool would rightly be dismissed for cause because you have already made up your mind. With that way of thinking maybe we should not wait for the FBI basketball recruiting investigation to run its course and just go ahead and label KU and Coach Self as cheats since they were cited in the indictment and apparently that implies guilt. Presumption of innocence is one of the most sacred prnciples in the American Criminal Justice System and jumping to conclusions before all the evidence is in would be understandable coming from a lay person but seems unlikely and most unseeming coming from an attorney.
Does it not bother you that everybody is being offered immunity in order to elicit testimony, real or made up, to incriminate the bigger fish with the hope that someone will eventually turn in Trump? This approach has been strongly and vocally opposed by the ACLU and Trial lawyers in the past, as Dershowitz pointed out, but their silence is deafening now that the target is a conservative. Does it not bother you that while the Special Counsel was tasked to investigate the alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, Manafort is being indicted for alleged crimes that took place long before Trump became a candidate, long before he joined the campaign, unrelated to the campaign and outside the stated scope of his mandate? As an attorney, does it not bother you that while the average sentence for a white collar criminal found guilty is 1.5 years in a federal country club detention center, Manafort is facing a term of 305 years? Apparently not since anyone associated with Trump does not deserve the same treatment as other defendants do. SMH.
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@JayHawkFanToo The answer to all your questions is “No, not a bit.”
On sentencing, thanks for bringing that up. The difference between what white-collar defendants receive from what they faced is another point of concern about how disparate the treatment of minorities is from the treatment of whites (who make up the overwhelming majority of white-neck, er, white-collar, defendants). They get low sentences compared to what they face, whereas nonviolent minority defendants face mandated minimum sentences. Ever notice that the law and order whiners never seek mandatory minimums for white-collar crimes?
Of course, the rich miscreants who commit financial crimes get pardons from their connected pals. (In both parties–Clinton’s pardon of Marc Rich was deplorable.) If you think Manafort, even convicted of everything, will serve any time greater than 6 months before your hero pardons him, you are dreaming.
Finally, the use of immunity for small fish to testify against big fish is the only way to get evidence. The biggest objections are to giving deals to jailhouse snitches who have no connection to their cellmates and have been shown to be willing to say almost anything about their new companions who strangely spontaneously confess to all types of crap after getting locked up. A second objection is when they give better deals to big fish and then fry the no-longer-needed little fish to increase conviction rates.
I have never heard a convincing argument against giving immunity to an accessory to give needed evidence to convict a major actor in a criminal enterprise.
I suppose you think it is the accountants who committed crimes benefiting Manafort. And Gates must have fooled him into saving millions in taxes. Poor Paul, such an ingenue in the ways of international finance and business partnerships. My tears are streaming down my cheeks.
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@HighEliteMajor to quote Stephen Colbert, “reality has a well-known liberal bias”.
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8/5/18 - So we saw the story in the KC Star and on various news outlets a days ago. 15 people were shot in Kansas City over 3 days. This is nothing new. Look at every major inner city. Many in areas with the strictest gun laws in the country. Killing fields. To find these killing fields, simply look to the major cities on the last presidential election map, and then look for the deep blue middle. President Trump promised federal involvement in Chicago if it didn’t improve. I’m still waiting. This is more than a political stunt. These are people’s LIVES. Real and tangible. A little boy paralyzed at a gas station waiting with his father. A little girl shot through a window in her home. A young woman randomly shot while driving. THESE LIVES MATTER AND WE GLOSS OVER THEM EVERY DAY BECAUSE WE ARE USED TO INNER CITY VIOLENCE. It is the product of a depraved and morally bankrupt culture.
The KC story is interesting. I’m waiting for the KC pro sports athletes to join the effort to vilify, target, blame, and eradicate those that murder and maim. I’m waiting for athletes around the country, who have influence, to villify, target, blame, and eradicate those that murder and main. I’m waiting for athletes around the country to speak up and villify, target, blame and eradicate a cultural tolerance and enabling of this horrific behavior. Oh, wait, that would require many to blame what they have so readily embraced and glorified, right? They are cowards.
Or, we can laud the athletes for their contributions to schools, and clubs, and charities. All very worthy of praise. But all while missing the point. If the athletes believe their voice and actions mean something, why not target those that kill, rob, maim, and destroy on a nightly basis? We know why. That would require many to target what they have readily embraced and glorified. They are COWARDS.
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@HighEliteMajor Are you a coward for not crusading against all the problems within the groups that you identify with or are identified as being a part of? Do you really think these athletes think police crime is the end all and be all of problems with black people facing violence in this country? I do not. I feel like we are talking about the perspectives of people that we don’t know, as spoon fed to us by spin media encouraging us to dismiss them and see them in 2 dimensions.
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Also, do you think it is logical to demand that these athletes tell other black people what to do simply because they are both black? As @justanotherfan pointed out, this comes down to personal safety, not crusading for group ideals as defined by racial collectives.
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8/6/18 Will be interesting to hear the misguided anti-gun folks spin this. The same folks that want to disarm citizens on the fairy dust and hope that the thugs and criminals will do the same (or not caring one way or the other). “Left” and “Logic” can never be confused as partners. Now “Left” and “Feelings”, that another thing. And “Dangerous” is always an appropriate moniker.
Edit - “Stupid” changed to “misguided.”
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@HighEliteMajor I actually agree about the gun control, being a independent. I think we need to take steps to prevent school shootings and what not but disarming millions of law abiding citizen won’t help. They ain’t gonna go to south Chicago or South Boston, east St. Louis and Compton to get the guns from there because it would turn into a war zone. Here is a great video on the matter.
