HCBS TALKS ABOUT THE TEAM! STARTS AT THE 5MIN MARK
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@jaybate-1.0 I couldn’t get it, so who do you think will start, if oubre and Cliff don’t? Will Mari start at the 5?
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Thanks for the link … I just got done listening to it.
@jaybate pointed out the highlights quite accurately, though I don’t think Self was really committing to Frankamp in the rotation. That’s the only thing I might point out.
But the huge, huge news is the reference to small guards. Let me paraphrase for everyone: Self said that we have three little guards (referring to Mason, CF, and Graham). That we could play two of the three a majority of the game. From what he has seen, “I like playing small. I like playing two of the three.” We won’t do that all the time, but he thinks having two primary ball handlers on the court a majority of the time will help our team. He said that this was how we’ve “always played in the past”, but last season we basically had two big wings and a point guard, and our passing, ballhandling, and playmaking was as poor as it has been. It will help playing two of those three guys.
Wow. I mean really wow.
Now, could two of the three be the only two that actually get playing time? Yes. That’s why I say that CF may not be a sure thing. When Katz mentioned Mason and Graham, Self affirmatively said CF was in the mix. It sure sounded positive for CF, though.
Self said Graham was the “truest point guard” of the three; Mason the best scorer; and CF the best shooter.
I think one item of note is his reference to Selden as a big wing. We knew this, but he isn’t a point guard. Self’s reference to lack of ball handling, and play making, and passing – that was a clear statement that Selden ain’t that guy. Self even mentioned in the interview that he’d have one of the three PG in the game all the time. Selden won’t play point.
Self said a number of months ago that ball handling was a big deal. Now, within mere weeks of the season, Self says that he thinks we’re better playing small (with two of the three PG on the floor).
I kind of think Mason and CF to start the season as the two ball handlers. Here’s why. Self took great pains to state how Oubre and Alexander should not be expected to put up huge numbers early (ironically, Self said that we should not expect 15-18 ppg and 10 rpg early, obviously trying hard to refute @Statmachine). But my point is, if Oubre and Alexander aren’t expected to be huge contributors early, why would Graham be expected to?
But no getting around Self’s clear emphasis on ball-handling and play-making. That is his mindset heading into the season. How long will it last? And to ask the question that Self usually asks himself when commenting, “Will we be able to guard anybody?”
Two small guys on the floor sounds nice. But playing one PG, with Selden and Oubre or Greene, provides great size on the defensive end. We’ll see.
If I had to bet … with this excellent intel: We have a 6 man perimeter rotation early. Mason, CF, Graham, Selden, Oubre, Greene. Then, one of the PGs falls out of favor, and the other two get the minutes. We would then be left with the expected 5 man perimeter rotation. Always with one PG in the game, many times two.
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@HighEliteMajor if Selden is a 3, Ellis 4, and if he doesn’t start Cliff who will be our 5?
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Guess: Mickelson plays 5, when two short guards are in. Traylor plays 5, when one PG is in.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Guess: Mickelson plays 5, when two short guards are in. Traylor plays 5, when one PG is in. Whenever Mickelson, or Traylor, stumbles, Alexander gets the call.
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@jaybate-1.0 I don’t know about that, guess we have been wrong on our projections!!! I really thought oubre or Greene would start, Cliff at 5. I’m anxious, more than ever, to see Hunter play!
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I actually think we have been right on, but that it will take awhile for Oubre and Alexander to play into starters. I suspect they will be starters eventually this season and if not starters then 20 mpg guys…
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You wrote:
Not second guessing him, more wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is. Last year’s team is exactly what it was, this years team will be different in many ways and while we are a smaller team overall than in the past, I still think we could stand better to put opposing teams at disadvantage by Playing Selden at the 2 with the combo of wings next to him.
Really? You don’t call this second guessing?
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
You wrote:
Not second guessing him, more wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is. Last year’s team is exactly what it was, this years team will be different in many ways and while we are a smaller team overall than in the past, I still think we could stand better to put opposing teams at disadvantage by Playing Selden at the 2 with the combo of wings next to him.
Really? You don’t call this second guessing?
I didn’t realize it was illegal to have a difference in opinion against Self. Your gonna tell me you agree with every single little thing he says??
My personal opinion says a more traditional lineup utilizing our size on the wings would be optimal. Self thinks having 2 small guards on the court will be more affective. Answer to that question won’t play itself out until the season.
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“I actually think we have been right on, but that it will take awhile for Oubre and Alexander to play into starters. I suspect they will be starters eventually this season and if not starters then 20 mpg guys…”
I’m thinking that is only the case if they start out needing more motivation. And sometimes young players can learn more on the sidelines watching.
But I have a feeling they are going to start from the getgo. Self is already talking like he sees this team as being younger even then last year’s team. I think he wants to get them as much PT as possible to benefit the late season.
My curiosity concerns PT for players like Greene, Svi, Lucas, Mickelson…
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Our NOV 18th starting 5 will probably look like our March starting 5 unless someone gets hurt. In cards you could have half the deck but your going to play your best cards to beat your opponent. I doubt HCBS is going to bluff against UK lol…
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It is not illegal or impermissible to have different opinions and I don’t agree with everything he does, even when he has forgotten more about basketball that I will ever know and he is one of the more successful basketball coaches ever, but I do not state that he might be doing it wrong either when he has all the facts and I do not; that is the text book definition of second guessing which, BTW, is in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing; after all this is, up to a point, what we do in sport forums.
sec·ond–guess transitive verb \ˌse-kəŋ-ˈges, -kən(d)-\
: to criticize or question the actions or decisions of someone
: to try to guess or predict what (someone or something) will do
You wrote:
wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is.
Really? and I mean REALLY? You really think Coach Self does not know what the biggest strength of the team is?
Right now, we have very little information about this team. We don’t know how the new players are coming along or how much the returning players have improved; what is the injury and physical conditioning situation, academic situation, personal issues and so on; Coach Self has all this information and then some, and bases his decision on facts not guesses in consultation with one of the top staffs in the business. He acts based on factual information, the rest of us just second guess…wouldn’t you agree?
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
It is not illegal or impermissible to have different opinions and I don’t agree with everything he does, even when he has forgotten more about basketball that I will ever know and he is one of the more successful basketball coaches ever, but I do not state that he might be doing it wrong either when he has all the facts and I do not; that is the text book definition of second guessing which, BTW, is in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing; after all this is, up to a point, what we do in sport forums.
sec·ond–guess transitive verb \ˌse-kəŋ-ˈges, -kən(d)-\
: to criticize or question the actions or decisions of someone
: to try to guess or predict what (someone or something) will do
You wrote:
wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is.
Really? and I mean REALLY? You really think Coach Self does not know what the biggest strength of the team is?
Right now, we have very little information about this team. We don’t know how the new players are coming along or how much the returning players have improved; what is the injury and physical conditioning situation, academic situation, personal issues and so on; Coach Self has all this information and then some, and bases his decision on facts not guesses in consultation with one of the top staffs in the business. He acts based on factual information, the rest of us just second guess…wouldn’t you agree?
Agreed if your going to put it that way.
Then the question is, why then does he believe having 2 small guards on the court a lot of time would be more successful. It must be from what he has seen to this point, which I’m sure is going to change once practice starts every day.
My other guess is that last year was a big disappointment to him in terms of certain fundamentals that he usually prides his team on being pretty good at. His Defense and PG situation have been attacked from all angles and I’m sure that hasn’t sit well with him.
If he’s using last year to change things up and try something new I’m all for it but I want to see why its going to be better because on paper it sure looks like we could win more games running with bigger guards.
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Let me toss this out there – Self says in the past, we were best playing with two smaller guards that could handle the ball. Ok, then, if that is true and Self is all-knowing, why didn’t he do that as a main scheme in 2012-13, and 2013-14?
Could it be that Self made a mistake then? I mean if we have always played like that and presumably been better playing like that, and he knew that in advance, and he didn’t do it – I mean, come on? And if someone claims that Self didn’t do that because of personnel, then why recruit guards that can’t handle the ball like primary ball handers, e.g., McLemore, Selden, Greene, White.
In 2012-13, he played EJ and Tharpe regularly together, but a vast majority of the time he favored McLemore and Releford on the court with one primary ball handler. The last season he could not have played CF or Mason more with Tharpe? Sure he could have. Both CF and Mason were way better ball handlers, had more play making ability, and were better passers that Selden or Wiggins, right? Mason had out of control spurts, but Selden was an absolute disaster handling the ball. He is a wing.
So for two seasons, Self has disdained the philosophy he is now preaching as the gospel.
Yet we should just buy all we’re being fed simply because Self is saying it?
Baloney to that. We have every right to analyze and critique a guy who says and does many inconsistent things.
And to answer @JayHawkFanToo’s question – “You really think Coach Self does not know what the biggest strength of the team is?” – I would say that coach Self does not really know that yet. His statements are theoretical right now. Projections,. Discussions. Assumptions.
But that’s not the point … @JayHawkFanToo refers to the “biggest strength of the team.” As in this team. Ok. But Self is talking philosophically about how KU has always played that way, and presumably been better that way. Reversion back to that approach is clearly because it is the better way, at least according to Self.
I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with that in this post, but it is wildly inconsistent with his philosophy in the past two seasons. We all can agree on that, right? He’s relied on one poor ball handler and one mediocre ball handler at the 2, McLemore and Selden. Seems quite contrary to his stated preferred approach. Can we all agree on that?
The reality is, which is the point I think @JayHawkFanToo was getting at, Self right now thinks that this approach is best for this team. Self just went with the approach he thought best for a particular team. McLemore on the court was a good thing, but we sacrificed ball handling. It is year to year.
Now, is it best for this team as @BeddieKU23 has asked? That’s a great topic. Is it best? And part of the answer is that coach Self really doesn’t know yet. He may not know until January.
Part of this, too, might be Self being a bit reactionary. He played against the “ball handling” philosophy the past two seasons. We didn’t get the results he wanted. So now we have the excuse, rationale, whatever you call it. We now need more ball handling. That must have been it. More ball handling. Because that’s how we’ve “always” played.
Ah, but in life, to get, you must give – and that is what we ponder. Do we give up too much in other areas by having two “little guards” on the floor a majority of the time?
I would also point out that we now have two more terms Self has used – in addition to “point guard”, “combo guard”, “lead guard”, and “small scoring guard”, we now have “little guard” and “primary ball handler” guard. Not that I’m keeping track or anything.
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Donald Rumsfeld famously said: "As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."
Likewise, Coach Self has to play with the players he has at hand that particular season and not the players he wish he had, so naturally, his philosophy and game plan has to change to adapt to the talent at hand and it will likely change once he gets more actionable facts about the players under real game situations.
Rumsfeld also said: The message is that there are no “knowns.” There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don’t know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that’s basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
At first read it makes no sense but if you read carefully it start to look reasonable, and extending the expression to the topic at hand, we see that there are many knowns and unknowns going into the season that take a while to get resolve and some may never be; the PG situation last year was, IMHO, never really resolved to the point of not being an issue.
As far as last season, remember that we had the biggest swing in experience that I have ever seen at KU and I can’t even recall a UK team with that much change . We lost the entire starting lineup including 3 - 5th years seniors, 1 senior and one elite red shit sophomore and in some games (Florida comes to mind) started 4 true freshmen and 1 sophomore that had started all of 3 games as a freshman and averaged only 13.6 MPG. That is the epitome of an inexperienced team and not the ideal set up for Self-Ball. It would appear that this year we do not have players of Wiggins, Embiid or even Black caliber and/or experience at some positions, and if Coach Self decides to go with Mason and Frankamp at guards, Selden at SF, Ellis at PF and Mickelson, Traylor or Lucas at Center, that team, although not as potentially talented, would have more than twice the experience of last year’s team. It is only logical (as Spock would say) that the game plan is necessarily different. Different players, different talent, different experience ==> different game plan,.
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Hey everyone! Its been a while since I’ve posted but I’ve nonetheless been keeping up with all of the latest news developments.
In regards to a small guard lineup, I would much rather have that than the poor ball handling teams we’ve had the last two years.
I realize that some are concerned with how well a small guard lineup of Mason and Frankamp will do against tall guards, especially with the Kentucky game looming. However, all you have to do is look at the game plan UConn had in championship game, which proves that short guards can match up against taller guards.
I have always felt that Mickelson would be the starter at the 5, at least for the first part of the season. One sports magazine (I don’t remember which one) has him as one the top 5 centers in country. He was also one of the best shot blockers in the country at Arkansas and has improved his vertical by six inches. I would say based on that he is the starter.
In order for the team to have success in tournament, defense and turnovers must be improved upon. I think all of us were pulling our hair out because of the many stupid passes and terrible defense that we so often witnessed the last two years. If those can be improved upon, along with steady guard play, the chances that they will still be playing in April going up dramatically from the last two years.
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@BeddieKU23 I dont buy that Coach will sit Oubre. That kids got major talent. Not Wiggins but a stud on the court for sure. He may play more small ball this year because we dont have the size we did last year but Im betting our starting 5 will be Mason or Frankamp, Selden, Oubre, Ellis and Alexander. One thing about Coach that is predictable is how he runs the team line ups year after year. Experience trumps everything but when you have a freshmen talent like Oubre, or Wiggins or Rush, they dont sit, they start.
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IMHO, Rummie became a case study that one does NOT go to war with the army one has.
Premptive warfare with the wrong army is a peculiar form of military absurdity perhaps one day to be called Rummism.
One delays war until one has an army one can win and occupy successfully with, not just win, or alternatively convulse and render useless a country without uniting its fragments into a formidable foe.
And Churchill made clear that if one lacks such an army and cannot delay the war; then one skillfully uses retreat on all fronts to buy the time until one can acquire such an army.
Rummie was apparently the wrong man in the wrong role running the wrong military the wrong way and ignoring those that knew better.
He was an ideologue, backed and lead by ideologues, when a realist was called for.
Therefore, I am not sure he is a useful reference to your otherwise defensible, though perhaps not fully airtight position.
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@jaybate-1.0 I like that. I like it a lot. I hope you are right. It will pay off in dividends for KU in the not too distant future.
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I disagree with most of what you said but this is not the forum for a discussion of warfare strategy or politics. I was merely was pointing out that coaches have to play with the players they have and not with the ones they wish the had, the ones thata re no longer available or the ones that will come in next season; it is really that simple.
We can discuss basketball as intensively as you want but I will stays out of politics, religion and non-sports related and partisan/controversial topics.
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It was perhaps unfortunate you introduced what seemed an appeal to authority, especially using a discredited, strategically challenged Rummie. For what it’s worth, he has no political significance whatever to me. He was a bureaucrat as you introduced him and as I responded. Frankly there would be no way for me to discuss him politically in this or any other forum, because he was a bureaucrat, not a politician. The only other things I know about Rummie beyond his strategic and administrative shortcomings as a SecDef is that he reputedly worked long and hard since the Nixon-Ford era to get the FEMA COG parallel government instituted and implemented, and put in continuous function since 9-11, and he signed PNAC. But FEMA COG and PNAC are really strategic rather than political in purpose, if I understand them correctly, so here again I don’t see a political angle. So: politically I just don’t see that YOU or I could introduce anything about Rummie that was political. . You introduced him as a strategic authority and I responded accordingly. He proved significantly flawed as a military and occupation strategist, as his record in Iraq and Afghanistan made clear to many. It would never have occurred to me to discuss him politically. I was just trying to save the merit of your post by divorcing it from the Rummie petard you erected. what ever, this seems a minor issue. Strategy is always a topic open to discussion here as basketball is a game with strategy and the military have contributed as much as any to its study, development and application in many fields. You introduced military strategy to the discussion. I recognize your tactical retreat here from what you introduced, but am hardly persuaded by it. DoD and the U.S. military have produced so many brilliant thinkers and actors regarding strategy that is an insult to them and our country to cite the negative anomaly of Rummie. And of course you could not be disagreeing with what I said of the remarkable Churchill for he did lead one of the most epic and skillful global retreats in the early years of the war one can recall and it is described well by war and strategy historian Liddell Hart–a decent though hardly flawless fellow. So that leaves you defending Rummie and that in the end is an act of loyalty, not reason, if means and results are reasonably weighed. So let leave Rummie to the ash heap of history in our appeals to his authority regarding hoops.
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@DinarHawk said:
Hey everyone! Its been a while since I’ve posted but I’ve nonetheless been keeping up with all of the latest news developments.
In regards to a small guard lineup, I would much rather have that than the poor ball handling teams we’ve had the last two years.
I realize that some are concerned with how well a small guard lineup of Mason and Frankamp will do against tall guards, especially with the Kentucky game looming. However, all you have to do is look at the game plan UConn had in championship game, which proves that short guards can match up against taller guards.
I have always felt that Mickelson would be the starter at the 5, at least for the first part of the season. One sports magazine (I don’t remember which one) has him as one the top 5 centers in country. He was also one of the best shot blockers in the country at Arkansas and has improved his vertical by six inches. I would say based on that he is the starter.
In order for the team to have success in tournament, defense and turnovers must be improved upon. I think all of us were pulling our hair out because of the many stupid passes and terrible defense that we so often witnessed the last two years. If those can be improved upon, along with steady guard play, the chances that they will still be playing in April going up dramatically from the last two years.
The biggest difference in Uconn’s Small Ball and KU’s small ball approach is that Napier and Boatright were Senior’s and Junior’s and our 3 consist of 2 Soph’s and 1 Freshman.
Boatright has played 3 years and 30 minutes a game his whole career. Shabazz played nearly the entire game it seemed for 3 straight years. The point is the experience difference that those 2 had in compared to what Self might do with his guards. So we cannot realistically expect that Mason/Conner/Graham can be as good as those 2 were at Uconn last year with very limited amount of playing time together to begin with.
Uconn’s small lineup also had a lot to do with Shabazz and Boatright being 2 of the best players on their team that was short of depth especially in the backcourt. KU is loaded in the backcourt with a potentially 3 stud freshman, and a Sophmore who is expected to be our leading or 2nd scorer.
We can’t match up with Kentucky playing small ball IMO, we can use our size to match their size at certain lineup’s and hopefully switch up the Defense to keep UK’s loaded front court away from every rebound.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
It was perhaps unfortunate you introduced what seemed an appeal to authority, especially using a discredited, strategically fairly unsuccessful Rummie. For what it’s worth, he has no political significance whatever to me. He was a bureaucrat as you introduced him and as I responded. Frankly there would be no way for me to discuss him politically in this or any other forum, because he was a bureaucrat, not a politician. The only other things I know about Rummie beyond his strategic and administrative shortcomings as a SecDef is that he reputedly advocated since the Nixon-Ford era to get the FEMA COG parallel government instituted and implemented, and reputedly supported its continuous function since 9-11, and he reputedly signed PNAC. But FEMA COG and PNAC are really strategic rather than political in purpose, though PNAC was used to gain political support for it strategic agenda, if I understand them correctly, so here again I don’t see a political angle. So: politically I just don’t see that YOU or I could introduce anything about Rummie that was political. . You introduced him as a strategic authority and I responded accordingly. You applied his war think to hoops and I responded to the doubtful validity of doing so. He proved significantly flawed as a military and occupation strategist, as his record in Iraq and Afghanistan made clear to many. He reputedly had other less publicized problems with career military folks over policy. It would never have occurred to me to discuss him politically. I was just trying to save the merit of your post by divorcing it from the Rummie petard you erected. what ever, this seems a minor issue. Strategy is always a topic open to discussion here as basketball is a game with strategy and the military have contributed as much as any to its study, development and application in many fields. You introduced military strategy to the discussion. I recognize your tactical retreat here from what you introduced, but am hardly persuaded by it. DoD and the U.S. military have produced so many brilliant thinkers and actors regarding strategy that It seems something of a disrespect to them and our country to cite the unsuccessful anomaly of Rummie. And of course you could not be disagreeing with what I said of the remarkable Churchill for he did lead one of the most epic and skillful global retreats in the early years of the war one can recall and it is described well by war and strategy historian Liddell Hart–a decent though hardly flawless analyst. So that leaves you defending Rummie the strategist and that in the end appears an act of political loyalty, not objective assessment and reason, if means and results were reasonably weighed. So let’s leave Rummie to the history of SecDefs who tried but werent very successful in our appeals to his authority regarding administration and strategy.
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Here’s the quote from Self from August about playing small – where he kind of talks himself out of it a bit at the end, in classic Bill Self style:
“You could see two of those three playing together a lot,” Self said. “And then that makes us real small, so your deepest position is wing. So I could see one of our wings being a four-man and playing real small. I think it’d be really hard to guard; I just don’t know if we could guard anybody.”
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This quote ought to be put on the quotes thread, because you are right: it captures the essential Self.
Those players could be hard to guard, but could they guard anyone? Definitive.
Also, regarding Conner, I believe he WILL be in the 8 man rotation if he can make his treys, but either Frank, or Conner will sit in a 7 man rotation. I believe Devonte was brought in in case Self has to go to a 7 man rotation in January instead of March. If one of the two had to sit in January it would mean they would not be good enough to cut it and would transfer AWIII style in summer.
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Again, This is what I said:
“I was merely pointing out that coaches have to play with the players they have and not with the ones they wish the had, the ones thata re no longer available or the ones that will come in next season; it is really that simple.” It really is not that hard to understand…unless you really do not want to or prefer to change the subject to politics, a subject in which we obviously we don’t see eye to eye.
In deference to other members of this forum that do not share my ideas and come to this forum to discuss KU sports, once again, I will not engage in political discussion and I will keep my opinions on the subject to myself; I respectfully suggest you do likewise.
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@jaybate-1.0 Can you clarify? Why do you think Graham’s role is connected to a 7 man rotation, if I’m reading that right?
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Let us first dispense with the misrepresentation that politics are being discussed by anyone other than perhaps you.
Next, let us refocus on your appeal to authority in Rummie and introduction of strategic Rummie think to the thread.
My points are these:
1.) appeals to authority whether logically flawed, or not, are undermined if the authority has not had much success; and
2.) analyzing KU BASKETBALL through the logic of strategic Rummie think risks analytic outcomes that might be the strategic basketball equivalent of Afghanistan and Iraq, not the political equivalents.
Regarding number 2, I don’t want KU basketball viewed through the lens of strategic Rummie think, because I don’t want KU BASKETBALL having resulting analyses equivalent to those that precipitated Afghanistan and Iraq.
This is NOT POLITICAL discourse.
This is strategic discourse.
Rock Chalk!
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Not to interrupt a good fight, but I noticed Devonte Graham was recognized as the top Jayhawk in leadership skills during the two day marine boot camp called The Program ( forgive my sentence structure- it needs TLC). Are you paying attention, Frank?
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@KUSTEVE I saw that too. That’s what he was brought here for, to be the true point guard, the real leader of the team. Pretty cool that he’s given such recognition before even playing his first game. Bodes well for things to come.
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@HighEliteMajor @HighEliteMajor
I suspect Self thinks there is a significant chance that either FM or CF will not meet minimum standards, or that the team will have to play with only one short guard in the rotation for defensive reasons. In either case, he will be looking at a 7 instead of 8 man rotation, or alternatively an 8 instead of 9 man rotation. It would mean one of either FM or CF has gotten the nod and the other likely will not be viewed as part of the future of KU BALL this year, or after. That spells transfer.
Why 7?
Without both short guards cutting it, I doubt there are 8 guys or more on this team that can play at a high D1 level this season; that is, without serious drop off in team efficiency, when subbed. And Self shows again and again that he would rather go 7 than 8, or 8 than 9, rather than tolerate a big drop off in team efficiency.
Count up who should reasonably be expected to rotate without major fall off in efficiency by late in the season.
Inside: Perry, Traylor, Mickelson, Alexander.
Outside: Oubre, Selden
That is 6 if alexander can adjust.
On bubble: Mason, Conner, Graham, Greene
Mason has the athleticism but skills are in question and size limits him to PG. If he can’t make the easy plays his second year his shelf life is short.
Conner has skill but athleticism is in question and size limits him to PG. If he can’t get his 3pt % up and guard his second season, his shelf life is short.
Graham has size and athleticism are pluses, but no experience and shooting skill is in question. But he has the length that makes developing him two seasons worth it.
Greene–Self hates wild hairs. Greene was one. Wild hairs often aren’t ready till junior season. EJ wasn’t. Travis needed 3 seasons. Odds are Greene won’t be ready for March, but I think he will have to rotate awhile, because Oubre is green. But as Oubre matures, Self can sit Greene, or if Oubre fails to adapt, greene might with slim probability marginalize Oubre.
So if Green comes around, that’s 7, and then you really only need one of the two short guards for 35 mpg and that’s 8. And who does Self develop with the 5 mpg? I think it would be Devonte, if he equals the others, because he offers more years and size.
But a significant possibility is this:
Green is still too wild.
One of the two short guards can’t cut it.
That’s 7 with Devonte backing up 5 mpg.
P.S.: Landen just maybe a victim of numbers and see his time the next year.
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@KUSTEVE That is a pretty interesting item.
I also notice Selden’s quote about the program, “It really built continuity and togetherness that we didn’t have last year.”
I recall a similar quote from someone similar to that back a few months ago.
What does that say? My speculation – we received no leadership from the presumptive leader, Naadir Tharpe. Self battled a pouting Tharpe two straight seasons. A rudderless ship simply drifts with the current. Whether it was Tharpe, or not, Selden’s quote provides some interesting insight.
A different item, but similar, I heard this week where T.J. Moe mentioned that MU’s 2012-13 season collapsed when James Franklin’s girlfriend broke up with him.
And that ties the Rumsfeld discussion and KU hoops together – the “unknown” unknowns.
Teams can be affected by a deterioration of chemistry, by outside events, by things that no one can really anticipate. It can go the other way. Outside or unanticipated events can bond a team.
A lack of chemistry and cohesion might have been part of the struggle last season – a struggle to play to their potential.
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Devonte’s leadership showing is good to hear.
If he could be THE point guard, it would solve a lot of lot of problems early.
But I seem to recall Self praising AWIII about boot camp leadership last season.
Still it’s some good news on DG.
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@HighEliteMajor My 2 cents worth is I would like for Devonte to win the job provided he plays smarter than Frank. Which I think he could do. He’s a natural born point guard, and all this talk about playing two smalls at the same time, imo, is a consolation prize meant for CF and Frank. Graham combines the court smarts of CF, along with the athleticism of Frank. He can’t shoot like CF, but I’d rather my point guard distribute rather than shoot anyway. I think Self is simply using the “small lineup” talk to prevent a CF/Frank transfer, which could be inevitable anyway if Graham is all that and a bag of chips.
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@jaybate-1.0 I agree with you on the number of rotation players. A smaller rotation is what he always does. Really, though, I could see the 4th post guy marginalized much more likely than the 4th perimeter guy. Self has regularly played just three perimeter guys the rotation minutes. He did it literally all of 2011-12 out of necessity (Wesley the 4th guy); Did it in 2012-13 when his #3 and #4 post guys were Ellis/Traylor.
With just three main perimeter guys, that leaves no real big minutes substitute.
A bare minimum 7 man rotation:
Perimeter: Selden, plus two of Mason/CF/Graham, and either Oubre or Greene = 4.
Post: Ellis, Alexander, and Traylor = 3.
Then Mickelson or Lucas get less than 8 minutes and the loser of the Oubre-Greene battle gets the less than 8 minutes collar.
One increasingly lower possibility given Self’s ball handling proclamation, is that the loser of the Greene-Oubre battle displaces one of the ball handling guards for one of the four main perimeter spots.
We play 7 guys rotation minutes. 2 guys get the plug-in, handful of minutes just for breathers, fouls, etc.
That’s my best guess for our rotation we get to Feb. 1.
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@jaybate-1.0 "But I seem to recall Self praising AWIII about boot camp leadership last season.
Still it’s some good news on DG."
He was actually recognized by the marine that ran the program, not Coach Self. So, this was, imo, a pretty substantial feat for a wet behind the ears freshman.
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Thx 4 the memory augmentation.
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I tend to agree with you on the idea of a “small lineup” or a “stretch 4” or whatever. But, the only consistent talk from HCBS since the end of last season has been about playing two ball handlers at the same time. And that talk started before we even signed Graham. So…will 2 of the 3 start? Probably not, but maybe. Will 2 of the 3 play significantly? I think so.
Defensively, they are all short, and they are all an improvement over Naa last year. And you got to believe that both Frank and CF had to get better over the off season. If one of them didn’t work on that to be a little better, then they deserve to sit.
Offensively, like JB said, whoever can make the easy play and the wing entry pass to the post will probably be the most important. Secondly, whoever can shoot the 3 >40%, Third, whoever can develop team chemistry. Think about the lineup last year with Naa and Frank on the floor at the same time. Naa moved over and played the “2 guard spot”. He could still run the offense and handle the ball, but also shoot and pass to the post. That is the spot and duties that are getting replaced. Those are the skills that will be needed to win that spot. So we’ll see.
This is also the time of year that HCBS talks great about everyone. Some reasons for that include, pushing buttons of some players, confusing early season opponents, and creating a positive locker room. Honestly, I doubt HCBS even knows for sure who is going to step up and win minutes, until real practices start. Think about this, imagine you haven’t even started practice with a ball and running plays with a team, and your head coach leaves you out of a conversation for playing time. Deflating!
So…a lot of coach speak, and probably button pushing.
I personally hope that out of our three short guards and three big wings, that we get a five man monster of interchangeable parts that can destroy anything an opponent throws at us. Also I want change of pace and different skills when the subs come in, to keep the opponents off balance, and to keep opposing coaches from using just one game plan against us. (“press their guards”)
I can’t wait for season to start!!! RCJH
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@jayhawkbychoice jmo, I thought CF was as poor of defender as Tharpe!
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@Crimsonorblue22 I thought he showed better instincts than Tharpe. And that’s a freshman compared to a junior. But like I said, both of them had better have gotten at least a little better over the off season or ride the pine.
Something else, we have not even seen Graham yet or even Frank and CF after the off season. So it’s really hard to predict what skills someone has and how they translate in game situations and when the play gets more organized as a team. I think back to the “Landen is a load” comment last year and how that translated to minutes on the floor. Ha, maybe if HCBS doesn’t mention you it’s a good thing!
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It would appear Self shared some of your concerns about Conner, or he might have waited to bring in a higher ranked point guard on scholie than Devonte.
It will be very interesting to see any of the three can defend at a high level on a team lacking a rim protector and so absolutely in need of a point guard that can really guard hard and effectively.
This entire KU team has never had to play without a rim protector at the D1 level. It is going to be a scary new experience for them. No more over guarding tendencies and relying on the rim protector to cover the blow byes.
This season, it is going to take old fashioned Self Defense–the man-up and guard and help kind–to survive the campaign as either one of Self’s conference title winners, or as a team with single digit losses, or both.
The objectives are clear for the group as usual: title and single digit losses.
The goal is a special season.
Rediscovering the verities of Self Defense, even if it costs us some FTAs for the other team, seems crucial.
I can hear the sliding sneakers right now!!!
Rock Chalk to you!!!
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@jaybate-1.0 I hope you are right!
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@jayhawkbychoice Good post. I think you are pretty accurate in your summary. Coach Self always talks about theoretic stuff. He’s not starting two of the small guards. No way. But playing them significantly? For sure. Really, most all of our rotation projections included two of those three anyway, based on ball handling. We knew Self had to have two ball handlers as part of the perimeter rotation, and we knew Selden ain’t an option.
The news, though, is really Self suggesting that we’ve always been better like that.
Maybe we were. In 2008, and 2012 – both Final Four seasons we started two off guards that could handle like point guards, didn’t we?
@crimsonorblue22 - Here’s what separated CF and Tharpe: Effort - did you ever feel that CF wasn’t busting his a**? With Tharpe, effort on defense was his enemy. Now, will CF be a competent defender? I don’t know. He did seem to front his offensive player better than Tharpe, but it’s hard to tell really. The defensive end could decide the PG battle.
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@HighEliteMajor Thanks!
Here are my defensive evaluations, just MHO:
As far as length, there isn’t a dimes worth of difference between the 3.
Frank I assume is a good defender. The times where he appeared out of position last year, I’m going to assume that he was asked to help out others.
Conner seemed to be good at keeping up with his man on the move through screens, and not get lost. I also think he picked up some dumb fouls while helping, because he was protecting bigs.
Graham, well we just don’t know. So I’ll assume that he is a good defender. What the heck!
You also have to think about team defense which may hinder Graham a little.
One thing that I’m going to keep an eye on, is that I think that CF is a late bloomer. Frank is more than a full year older than him and Graham is a few months older than him, having spent a year in prep school. I saw a video clip from a month or two ago, in which CF was goofing around with his brother. His brother threw the ball off the back board and CF went up behind him and dunked it without much effort in getting up. I’ve seen video of him dunking last year and he had a head of steam and really had to get into his jump to dunk in traffic. Now I know that will never be a part of his game, but I think it suggest that he has increase his athleticism a little bit. I don’t know, maybe it’s something, maybe nothing. It will be interesting to see if his overall explosiveness increases over the next couple years.
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Starting at point guard in D1 takes a pair, not just talent and skill.
Last season the pressure of starting at PG for Bill Self finally cracked Naadir Tharpe wide open.
Frank Mason was given some early starts and folded under the pressure.
Conner was injured during an early season period where he might have gotten a start or two to see what he could do. When his knee came around, KU was busily looking unbeatable and headed for a ring run. Folks forget how great KU looked for awhile last season with Naa and before Embiid got a spinal adjust meant from the thuggers. Conner didn’t really get another serious look until Naa cracked. Conner showed okay. Nothing fancy, just got it done for a short stint.
But starting at PG for a season takes an XTReme Pair.
It is brutal out there. Everyone is trying to wreck you everywhere you go. All the coaches are studying video of your every flipping week. Every little flaw you have is identified and schemed against. The wear and tear is XTReme. The psychological stress is XTReme. The starting point guard requires the resilience of some kind of super alloy.
When we point out guys that start as freshman and perform the duty adequately, we are talking about rare birds. Aaron Miles did it. But really, who else? Even Sherron did not start as a freshman and he was the toughest nut outside of Miles I ever saw as a young PG. The more time that goes by the more amazing what Aaron Miles did as a freshman becomes. Miles was freak IMHO. A man body with a man mind’s toughness in a teenager. It was like Miles came out of the womb as hard as titanium. Mario Chalmers actually took years of toughening by Self to get him to be as hard as Miles started out. I don’t even recall Self having to put Miles in the toughening box Self’s first season. Miles by then would have kicked the walls out of Self’s toughening box, taken the ball, and told the first year coach to stuff a sock in it and let us play, Coach. Miles lacking certain skills like shooting, so he could not go onto as great of a career as his toughness warranted. But Miles was a rock.
It is unfair to expect Devonte to have that much toughness in my opinion. But if he has it, well, then KU is lucky as hell.
What is more important is that we really can’t infer much about the toughness of either Frank, or Conner, based on what each did last season, at PG. We only can say they weren’t up to the challenge last season. We know both probably have enough of the basics to be given a look at the job this season. We can suspect that the odds are that one of them can grow into the job this season, but perhaps not both. But there is no way but trial by fire to see if either has the right stuff.
There is a reason Self looks after players and holds them out of deep water so much longer than a lot of fans wish he would.
Tharpe to me was an example of what happens to a player that gets in over his head for too long. Tharpe desperately needed another year of seasoning. He just wasn’t ready mentally for the challenge. But no one else stepped up and so into the chamber he went and the bolt was thrown closed and the pressure of explosive competition proved too intense for him.
Young men can break if put under too much pressure. And there is no greater pressure than point guard for a 35 ti 40 game season at a program where expectations run high as Mt. Everest.
We as fans need to be viewing these three young men as possibilities. Maybe as a committee that might cope with a season and develop to a point of competence by the end of the season. We need to remember that none of the three is really going to be ready to go until the following season; that the biggest thing will be trying to keep all of them from cracking under the pressure.
We don’t want another Tharpe. We don’t want young men cracking. We want young men growing and getting better and better over time.
Rock Chalk!
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I think its encouraging that Graham has shown leadership in the pre-practice festivities to toughen this team up. Will that translate to the court though is another question. You’d have to think that some of that would translate but we just don’t know. Self expects so much out of his point guard that what has been mentioned “cracking under pressure” can happen. Can he lead from the start when we have others who have been through the freshman jitters/demands from Self already?
The other factor that I have realized is that the Big 12 this year has great SG. Buddy Hield, Bryce Jones, Marcus Foster all good sized guard, all good offensive players I can’t see our 3 small ball guards defensively doing a good job against these guys. If you put Selden on him, who in a traditional lineup would be our SG, then you have nobody to guard SF’s on these teams with. You see what I’m saying, we would be at a big defensive disadvantage by playing this 2 small guard lineup on match-up’s alone. That’s not against every team but some of the pre-season big 12 teams it doesn’t seem on paper this can work in KU’s favor. Certainly doesn’t seem like we gain any advantage other than ball handling from going small ball. We seem to lose more than we gain, and then left asking players to over compensate.
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@HighEliteMajor based on last year, CF was not capable of playing KU defense! Improved? I hope. I certainly could see why coach didn’t play him as much as fans wanted. I will be happy to be wrong!
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@Crimsonorblue22 I could certainly see why Self didn’t play him, either. But I hesitate to indict any freshman in Self’s system. Learning curve (usually) moves vastly upward after the initiation to Self-ball.
My concern with CF as a point guard is the other side of the sword – he did have low turnovers, but he also had nearly no assists. Further, the eye test (I’ve been mocked on that before), but he doesn’t look the part. He moves methodically. He protects the ball. Tail dribbles. Is very careful.
For my money, I don’t mind a few wisely aggressive turnovers. Truth be told, turnover aren’t all bad as part of a certain offensive approach. But in Self’s system, which seems conservative, CF was even more so.
I fall in the category of one who thinks that CF has the lowest chance of the three of being our starting PG on Feb. 1. I still like the guy. And think he could be the #2 point guard. But not the #1.
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@HighEliteMajor exactly how I feel. He is “safe”! The tyshawn factor!
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I agree with your assessment of Frankamp based on what we have seen so far. I also agree that the more likely position for him is SG rather than PG. His fundamental are solid and he knows how to play defense, unfortunately against top opposition, the physical is not at the same level as the mental component. Perhaps we can extend the definition of “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak” to indicate that up to now, his athleticism has not matched his game IQ, although I have read bits and pieces that over the summer he has made huge improvements athleticism-wise and he might be a big surprise. Let’s also remember that when he had to step up, he did it very well when playing for the Under 17 USA team which he led in scoring and shot .452 from 3 (.557 overall) and was a perfect 1.000 from the free throw line.
