Draft Declarations Thread
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Since the apparent long stacking has apparently been curtailed a few years back (to avoid arousing too much apparent suspicion?), we haven’t had a super team that I recall.
Historically, super teams have been fairly rare over much of the history of the NCAA. They have come only in short, infrequent, intermittent bursts, with the exception being UCLA under Wooden, when, after winning two with players other coaches didn’t want, he finally reputedly looked the other way while Sam Gilbert hired players the same way other top schools were then and had been hiring players the previous 15 years he had been coaching UCLA and finishing second in conference so many times.
Because of the above, I am not sure how to interpret your observation about Nova.
The point seems to me to be that was a super team in disguise. Once folks watched them, which I did not do during the season, it became apparent that they were one of the most extraordinary teams to come along in NCAA history. They were essentially unprecedented. It wasn’t just the offense that distinguished them. Many teams over the years have tried to volume shoot treys and combine that with match up zones. But no prior team ever had 6 >39 percent trey shooters playing in a rotation, including 2 highly athletic 6-9 to 6-10 big men that could drain the trey.
On a good night, there hasn’t been another team in NCAA history that could have stopped them. Even the Walton and Jabbar lead UCLA teams would certainly have lost to them on any hot shooting night by Nova. They would have absolutely smoked the undefeated Indiana team of 1976, which was a pretty weak outside shooting team. They would have run UK’s 2012 team off the floor on a good shooting night. Magic’s national champion? Last year’s Nova team would have beaten them by 20-30 points on a good shooting night. The only champion I can recall that might have stayed on the floor with them on a hot night would have been the Duke 9 OAD stack and even they didn’t have two post men that could and did drain the trey.
Nova was greatest anomaly and arguably the greatest team in the history of NCAA basketball, and they were apparently carefully kept under the radar screen of as many bettors as possible over the course of the season. The Media-Gaming Complex at least accidentally enabled the phenomenon.
Think how much more obvious it would’ve been that Nova was a great team, on the scale of UK’s 2012 team, or Duke’s 9 stack, had Nova’s now apparent ringers not been apparently sandbag-ranked 75-100.
Imagine just how on the radar screen Nova would have been all season had their 6 extraordinarily athletic, long, strong >39% trey shooters, including not one but two post men that could shoot >39% from trey, as well as run the floor, guard their positions, rebound, make free throws, and muscle, been accurately identified as precisely what they were: Top 25 players–all six of them.
It was a really sweet deal.
Why, they didn’t even win their conference, right? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Think of how it would have changed betting lines every game of the season, if everyone had known what they were. Think of how it would have reduced the opportunity to exploit the underestimation of how good Nova was most of the season. Think of how much money there was to be made by doing that, rather than apparently blatantly long stacking and hyping to the cloud frontier either Duke, or UK, as in the past.
Now, think of how, even if that were NOT what really happened (i.e., if they were not channelled, pooled and sand-bagged for Jay the last few years to make a big killing) , how easily and quickly the apparent Media-Gaming complex and/or the apparent petroshoeco-agency complex (note: elements of the latter reputedly being investigated for channeling talent as we exchange posts), could seize what happened for the model of optimizing.
What a sweet deal, eh?
You could even just run the scam every third season and most would never get suspicious in mass distracted, memory challenged America.
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Jay Wright is a good coach and talent evaluator. No sense in over complicating it.
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BShark said:
Nice fan fiction.
I will take that as a compliment, thank you very much.
“Fan fiction”, like “amateur journalism” before it in the 19-teens, is the breeding ground for literary innovation and greatness.
Modern science fiction and horror fantasy trace their roots not so much to Welles, Doyle, Huxley et al, but to American amateur journalism’s incredible tide of greats including H. P. Lovecraft, that embraced both the English ghost story and dark tales of Poe and blended them into what would become commercially marketed in first Weird Tales during the 1930s and then as the tsunami of American science fiction of the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s.
The Inklings at Oxford made their top down contributions in the form of Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings trilogy, and Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia, but the stuff that broke down all the boundaries and freed the human imagination to deal with the technological tidal wave that hit us in the 20th and 21st Centuries is American science fiction and American horror fantasy, and those clearly spring from amateur journalism.
Now today, the greatest hotbed of creation and innovation in literature is happening in fan fiction and maybe even on an order of magnitude greater scale.
The moribund film industry to busy with pedophilia to really incorporate truly creative writers have finally figured out that they can now steal popular, fresh film ideas from fan fiction web sites where the young men and women, and older ones marginalized by the producer oligopolies in publishing and film, can be found writing incredibly great stuff and offering the training ground for the next great literary tidal wave.
Thank you, sir.
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BShark said:
Jay Wright is a good coach and talent evaluator. No sense in over complicating it.
Sure, and John Calipari was just a great recruiter.
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink!
Howling!
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BShark said:
Jay Wright is a good coach and talent evaluator. No sense in over complicating it.
When I stop to think about what you have written, I just cannot believe how I have overlooked the obvious comparison.
Jay Wright and John Calipari are apparently two sides of the same coin. They are almost interchangeable, once you make me think about it. They are both MASTERFUL recruiters able to recruit unprecedentedly anomalous numbers of certain kinds of players to non-elite majors (Jay at Nova and Cal at Memphis) and get to Final Fours doing so.
Thank you for calling my attention to this.
Do you suppose Jay will follow in Cal’s footsteps and go to an elite major next?
Wouldn’t this be great for the game? Wouldn’t you reckon UK would be about ready to replace Cal, who’s fabulous recruiting abilities seem to have mysteriously waned, so that they can benefit from Jay Wright’s fabulous recruiting abilities?
You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Rock Chalk!
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@jaybate-1.0 Wright is a better in game coach than Calipari. You frequently overrate Self.
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BShark said:
@jaybate-1.0 Wright is a better in game coach than Calipari. You frequently overrate Self.
NEVER overrate Self. His numbers speak for themselves, especially with the level of talent he gets to coach in comparison with the other top coaches. Self has NEVER had a team as talented as Jay’s was last season.
Regarding Jay vs. Cal as game coaches, you kind of pulled that out of thin air, so let me ground you in some quantitative reality.
Lifetime W&L
Jay 544-250 (.685)
Cal 678-202 (.770)
Cal seems to win more games and win at a higher rate.
So far as I can recall, all of Cal’s victories were achieved, while he was an “in game coach,” so it appears that Cal is quite a bit better “in-game” coach than Jay.
Though I admit, “in game coach” is a pretty fuzzy concept.
I am only using it because it is what you gave me.
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@jaybate-1.0 Cal has, in the past, consistently got more NBA talent than Jay Wright. Only looking at wins and losses is short sighted.
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BShark said:
@jaybate-1.0 Cal has, in the past, consistently got more NBA talent than Jay Wright. Only looking at wins and losses is short sighted.
Not shortsighted at all.
Evidence based.
Quantitative.
Large N.
Reliable.
Coherent.
Not out of nowhere.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Coherent.
Now this is funny.
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Well Doke now has like 3 days to decide whether he stays in or comes back. - - With him taking this long now after the combine to make the announcement I just think it’s not looking good for the home team. Hope I’m wrong. Even if he comes back though I would still like to see him work and work hard in developing some kind of shot a liitle aways from the hoop not just the slam to help pull the defense out some from underneath. I think this year we are going to see when he catches down deep I think we are going to see a lot more double down on him to help out so he can’t just drive the ball through like he did last year. The reason that I say that is as been mentioned is what we have heard our suspect outside shooting this year if we can’t nock down the outside J from somebody or a couple of somebodies then other teams will be able to help om Doke more and force him to kick it back out - unlike last year.
On another note as anyone hear about Shammert from WSU - -de he hire an agent or did he say he was staying in the draft? ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Shamet hired an agent so there is no going back for him. He is projected to be a late first round so he has no reason to go back, even if he could. FWIW, he worked out for the Warriors.
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@JayHawkFanToo Do you think he is 1st round NBA talent?
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Considering how well he did at WSU, yes. He is a very good game manager with high basketball IQ that many who know him well say he is like a coach on the court. He is not athletic but he has decent size and can shoot from outside.
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@jayballer73 I think Shamet better hope he gets picked first round so he’s guaranteed a contract or he’ll another G league disappearing act, his numbers are average and is inconsistent shooting. He won’t be around long IMO.
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Why do you think his numbers are average and he is inconsistent? His numbers are better than those of Ron Baker and Fred VanVleet in their final year at WSU and both are playing in the NBA.
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@JayHawkFanToo Wrong Fred averaged 13 points, 4.5 rebounds and 5 assists during at WSU. Baker averaged 15 points, 4.5 rebounds and 2.5 assists. Shamet averages 15 points, 3 rebounds and 5 assists all while averaging less blocks and steals with more turnovers. Shamet basically was better in point average, not to mention Baker has averaged 15 minutes, 3 points in only 81 games played in his 2 year NBA career and probably is done when is contract is up or will be sent to the G league before that. VanVleet had a decent season averaging 20 minutes and 7 points this past year but I really don’t know comparing Shamet to these guys in which one wasn’t even drafted bodes well for him being great and sticking around the NBA, at least those of us with common sense that is.
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@kjayhawks To be fair, Baker’s second season was marred by an orbital socket injury, and ended for him with shoulder surgery in Feb.
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@mayjay true but he want play much before that or the season before.
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No, my numbers are correct. Final season at WSU for junior Shamet, senior Baker and sophomore VanVlett.
- Shamet - 14.9 ppg, 5.2 app, 3.2 rpg, .560 from 2 and .442 from 3
- VanVleet - 12.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 3.2 rpg, .396 from 2 and .381 from 3
- Baker - 14.0 ppg, 3.2 apg, 4.8 rpg, .424 from 2 and .350 from 3
As I posted, the numbers for Shamet for his last season at WSU are better than those of Baker and VanVleet in their last seasons at WSU.
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@JayHawkFanToo besides they had better steals and less turnovers. You’d have a point if VanVleet or Baker were doing anything in the NBA, Shamet’s stats are only better in shooting, Rebounds are the same, assists are more, steals are more, blocks are more and turnovers are less for Fred. Being better in 3 of 8 stat columns doesn’t equal better seems how 5 is more than 3. Time will tell, I’ll get you some crow pie.
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So, you don’t think he will be drafted?
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@JayHawkFanToo I think he’ll get drafted late first round, early second just don’t believe he’ll be around long.
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Shamet has the advantage of being a PG (Baker is an undersized SG) and being bigger than Van Vleet. That size and positional difference affects his draft potential and overall prospect value.
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Danny Manning suffers another brutal loss this off-season as his would be Sr guard Crawford has elected to stay in the draft.
Makes sense after they signed a grad transfer guard not too long ago.
Danny’s miracles are running dry
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Why hasn’t Dok made his intentions known publicly? Are there more tryouts in the next couple of days?
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@dylans The deadline to withdraw from the draft is tomorrow – so we should know within 24 hrs or so. Hope the big boy is back.
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@HighEliteMajor Me too! Only reason I posted. Like Christmas Eve as a kid.
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Last year Svi waited until 10 minutes or so from the deadline…just sayin’
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@JayHawkFanToo Good point. Dok’s potiental impact on next years team is greater than any player in recent memory, so I guess I’m on pins and needles.
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Donte Divencenzo stays in the draft. Big blow to Nova. No wonder Cremo went there
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BeddieKU23 said:
Donte Divencenzo stays in the draft. Big blow to Nova. No wonder Cremo went there
Yeah I feel this was set in stone when Cremo popped for them.
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Absolutely, all falling into place now
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The only question now is if there will be any issues with Silvio. I think it is 80%-90% that he will be eligible and play; I would be surprised if he does not play. The way our judicial system works Silvio will be long gone before the FBI indictment makes it to trial.
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Reid Travis is withdrawing from the draft and will be grad transfer. Sounds like he is heading to Kentucky. Enormous addition for them. He would have been first team all PAC 12 next year.
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Omari Spellman staying in the draft. Great day.
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BShark said:
Omari Spellman staying in the draft. Great day.
Yes it is. Let the beatdown in Lawrence commence.
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Woodrow said:
Reid Travis is withdrawing from the draft and will be grad transfer. Sounds like he is heading to Kentucky. Enormous addition for them. He would have been first team all PAC 12 next year.
Nova is involved as well. Look for them to make a push now that Spellman is gone.
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A blow to Turgeon at Maryland. Kevin Huerter stays in the draft after seeing his stock go way up during the process. Couldn’t happen to a better group of fans
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The forgotten Porter returns to Methzu
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Clemson’s guard duo of Mitchell & Reed returns for their final season…
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BeddieKU23 said:
A blow to Turgeon at Maryland. Kevin Huerter stays in the draft after seeing his stock go way up during the process. Couldn’t happen to a better group of fans
Not even going to be top 25 now. RIP
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@BeddieKU23 wasn’t he (porter) predicted to go first round? I thought I saw that and couldn’t figure that out!
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@Crimsonorblue22 This is Jontay. Projected late 1st or 2nd. Michael remains in the draft.
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@mayjay I wasn’t to impressed w/him.
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@mayjay body fat % 13.85
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Jontay has lots of potential. He is tall, can rebound and can shoot from outside which makes him a stretch forward that the NBA seems to like nowadays…and he is still pretty young. I would think he would be selected in the first round based on potential alone but, with a good year at MU, he could definitely go lottery next year.
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Brian Bowen goes pro after the ncaa ruled him at minimum ineligible for next season. Ouch.
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Liddell Wigginton returns to Iowa St.
Wenyen Gabriel leaves Kentucky but PJ Washington returns. Ugh
Tyus Battle returns to Syracuse ensuring another bubble year in which they make the tourney and overachieve
Charles Matthews returns to Michigan. Huge for them.
Tyler Cook returns to Iowa
Ethan Happ returns to Wisconsin
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@BeddieKU23 Considering that Bowen was cleared by the NCAA of any direct involvement in the $19,500 received by his dad from Adidas, and that he already lost his freshman year after Louisville held him out, this does not bode well for Silvio.
