The Lebron Legacy
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While I generally agree with your characterization, there is a fine line between having a killer instinct and being a selfish player or ball hog. A selfish player will take the last shot, regardless of how easy or difficult it is, while the player with the true killer instinct will find a teammate under the basket and make the pinpoint pass that allows the teammate to score the easy basket and win the game.
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@Crimsonorblue22 And JayhawkFanToo very valid points. If I had to think of a recent KU player that had a killer instinct? Man that is a tough question. We could almost start a new tread on that one. If had to pick one I guess I would say S. Collins. Dude was never afraid to take it to the hoop, and always wanted the ball in is hands. I will say this I think maybe Selden might have that killer instinct too. Good question.
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@DoubleDD TRob for sure! Have to think on this. For sure Collins!
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Why would adidas want their marquis endorsement player playing in Lebron’s Nike shadow? Doesn’t make a lick of sense?
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@jaybate 1.0 as usually you’re the voice of reason. It’s just Minnesota? How can I root for Minnesota? I read a rumor though. The person predicted Lebron would go back to the Cavs, and Carmello would resign with the Knicks. So far so good. His last prediction Phil Jackson would trade Carmello for Wiggins? Is it possible? Can I dream? OH wait tell me the Knicks aren’t a Nike team? Please? Please?
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Interesting stuff. I didn’t even realize Phil was with the Knicks. From Nike’s POV, burying Wigs in Tundraville might make good tactical and strategic sense. And Melo and Lebron would make a much better transcept type team than Love and Lebron would make an in-out type team.
On the other hand, NYC media could be very tough for Wigs to grow up with as an NBA PLAYER. The best trade off of market size and market friendliness would be a Texas franchise.
But there are risks any way. The best thing for Wigs is to get with a great coach/organization ASAP. Wigs’ posse got him to Self. My guess is they will get him to a great NBA COAC/organization setting too. Phil certainly qualifies as a great. The Knicks were great once and could be again.
Good diamonds can’t look their best without good setting!
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@jaybate 1.0 Phil Jackson isn’t coaching the Knicks he’s the president. I totally agree on Wigs to a Texas team, however he is from Canada?
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@HighEliteMajor and has won what?
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The reason LeBron only signed a two year deal is the fact the NBA is signing a new TV deal in two years and he hopes he can get an even larger paycheck at that time. He now will be able to negotiate a better contract in two years and also has the choice to opt out after one season to renegotiate next summer. Player options only can come before the final season of a contract, another reason for the two-year deal. The TV component is important and valuable. The NBA and players share basketball-related income (BRI) at a near 50-50 split, and TV revenue is included in BRI. The higher the BRI, the more money for players. Also don’t be surprised if James negotiates and re-negotiates max deals that are shorter in length for the next few seasons. The players and owners have the option to terminate the current CBA after the 2016-17 season, which could lead to another change in maximum contracts.
Now why would the Wolves agree to the Cavs trade when the Warriors have a much better package??
####Cavs are offering Wiggins, Bennett, Brendan Haywood, and next years first rounder (which would be a late first rounder since Cavs + Love = big things…) So really you’re getting Wiggins (unknown prospect), Bennett (failed his first year, may get better, may not), Haywood (UNC alum that hasn’t amounted to much), and a border line second rounder. Throw in the fact that Wiggins hasn’t signed his contract and it’s not sure if the dollar signs will match up. To make this deal work the Cavs would either have to add Tristan Thompson to the pot or seek out a third team to make the money all equal out.
The Warriors have a deal of ####Barnes, Lee, and Thompson for Love and Kevin Martin which works money wise without much additional wrangling (aside from whether the Wolves would demand the Warriors’ 2015 draft pick). With Barnes, Lee, and Thompson you’re getting three players that you know about. None are prospects. Thompson, Lee, and then Barnes were 2, 3, and 4 in team scoring last year. And Lee was second on the team in rebounds.
Now I know the Wolves have been a very bad organization the past decade or two, but are they so inept that they can not to see that 3 starters (Barnes/Lee/Thompson) out weigh 1, maybe 2 starters (Wiggins/Thompson if he’s included).
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@drgnslayr I will second your wish that Andrew wind up with SA. Don’t know how long Pop will be there, though. Could Self become Spurs coach at that point?
How long could Minnesota control Andrew’s future if he is traded? Could he be a RFA after 3 or 4 years?
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@EdwordL : Rookie contracts are 2 years, with the 3rd and the 4th year being team options.
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@Bwag What has Wiggins won? Wiggins is what is called an “expectancy” … like the money one might get from a grandparent when they pass away. It’s not yours until it is. Wiggins isn’t anything yet. Love is.
What would you call Wiggins if, before age 25, he put up Love like numbers?
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HEM, no question that Love has awesome numbers, but you need to put the numbers in context. Not taking anything away from him, but his stats are partly the result of playing for the Wolves, where he is not “one” of the options, he is “the” option and the alpha dog/woolf, and if you watch him play, you will see him jump over teammates to get rebounds to pad his stats.
Like in real estate, location, location, location; where you play makes a big diference. Remember how many times it has been written in this board that players like Andrew White would be starters with big numbers at other schools, but he could not get meaningful minutes at KU? How about Royce Wooldridge? At KU he got walk-on playing minutes but at Washington State he was second in minutes, averaged almost 10 PPG, including a 36 point outing, and led the team in assists and steals. Look at Chris Bosch’s numbers; he was averaging Love-like numbers in Toronto but his number went markedly down at Miami playing with LeBron and Wade. Again, where you play and who your teammates are makes a huge difference. How good would Karl Malone had been without John Stockton setting him up?
In Cleveland he will be playing with LeBron and Irvin, who much like Love, are not shy about taking shots and they will not defer to Love like his teammates did In Minnesota and he will not be jumping over Varejao and Thompson either. Unlike Ricky Rubio (9.5 PPG, 8.6 APG) at Minnesota, Irving (20.1 PPG, 6.1 APG) is not a pass-first type of point guard and he will take his fair share of shots. What do you think the chances are that Love will maintain those averages if he moves to Cleveland? IMHO, extremely small.
Again, there are two sides to every issue and while Love is a great player, I am not convinced he is the difference maker he is portrayed to be. He might well end up being like Dwight Howard and the Lakers, good individual numbers but a disruptive player that resulted in poor team numbers…or he could be like Shaq and help Cleveland win several rings. It really is a crapshoot.
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@JayHawkFanToo - Part of this is explaining away Love’s dominance by playing on a crappy team. If he is “the” man – “the” option – can’t that also make it hard to produce, thus being “the” focus of the other team? It can go both way.
But I really like your Bosh comparison. That might cause some pause, and supports your theory there. The point guard thing is interesting too.
Coach K said this of Love – “I’ve coached him on two teams, and no pun intended, I love Kevin Love,” he said. “You look at LeBron, and you have the best player in the world. He’s 29, I’m not saying he’s at the end of his career, but he’s in the second-half of his career. And in the first half of his career he was becoming a great player. It took time, just like with Andrew Wiggins, it takes time. LeBron is a great player right now, you do not want to waste any year of a great player’s career. Love is close to being that. He’s not as great a player as LeBron, but he’s there. You know who Love is right now.”
When you say “crapshoot” – to me, it seems like Wiggins, Bennett and a first rounder for Love is worth the gamble given you have Lebron. Best shot, % wise, to win now.
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Keep in mind that in the NBA is strictly man to man, so unlike college, you can’t really double or triple team a player…if you do, you will be killed by the other players. Remember that every player in the NBA is an elite player compared to the total population, so while some are better that others, even the lesser players are pretty darn good.
The other point is that Love is going to come at the max. salary of about $22M. To accommodate his salary, Cleveland will have to shed at least 4 players including Wiggins and Bennett who are on their rookie contracts and making around $5M. The end result will be like Miami, a team with 3 super stars, a couple of role players, has been (Lewis, Hasslem), bidding time 'til retirement (Allen, Battier), never were (Old man Oden) and former/current druggies/screw-ups (Anderson, Beasley); obviously the lack of bench was exposed in the playoffs and they were taken to school by San Antonio and its deep bench.Miami has gotten some good players to replace LeBron, and it might end up being as good as the previous team, definitely more balanced and maybe even better.
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@JayHawkFanToo : I put this in my above post: There is a fourth player that is being included in the deal at this time and it’s Brendan Haywood. But to make the salaries work they will need to do one of two things. Either add another current Cav player or include a 3rd team. Some have said the Cavs may have to include Tristan Thompson to make the money all equal out. But by adding him in the mix Cleveland is putting up 3 lottery picks and they likely won’t want to do that. So the only option left for the Cavs is to find a third team to include in the trade to make all of the $ work. This is why I think the Golden State trade option would be more appealing if I’m the T-Wolves GM.
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@Kip_McSmithers I’m impressed with your grasp of formatting and I’m jealous. Also you know a lot more about NBA teams than I do. Thanks for posting
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@JayHawkFanToo you my friend are on fire. That post is one of best I’ve read. I wish I could Fav 10 times. Also the elephant in the room everybody seems to forget even the great Coach K is LOVE doesn’t play defense. What good does it do to score 20 or 25 points when you give up 30? Just saying.
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@DoubleDD good one!
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Brendan Haywood is a long shot…or maybe not. He is getting up in age and he did not play last season due to injury; coming back from a season ending injury is tough, particularly for an older player. Also, he is the only other center in the team and his 2014 $2M salary might not be enough; he is also schedule for a $10M salary for 2016 which might have to be paid by the Bobcats, but would not count against their cap if I understand correctly, and the team he is playing in that year could waive him and save $10M form their cap…and that is the attractive part of his contract. It is a very complicated contract and I am not sure I fully understand it. Here is a link that might shed some light…
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Wigs signs with Cavs… earns 30 day reprieve…
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@drgnslayr That article explains again why Wiggins’ signing is not a reprieve. As long as he didn’t sign, the Cavs could never trade him for Love because they only had his rights, and the contract value of his rights in a trade would be 0$.
By signing, Wiggins starts the clock on the 30 day waiting period. If he had waited to sign, he could have started the clock at the last minute and forced the Cavs to watch him be on the same floor with Lebron, at least for awhile. Anyway, too late now.
To me, this means his handlers are OK with him leaving. Can’t figure out why, unless as jaybate surmises their brains stop below their ankles.
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I didn’t really think of it that way… but you are right… the clock starts now!
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Wiggins signing sucks. I really hate the fact that in 30 days he will probably be traded to the T-Wolves and be apart of that piss poor organization for probably 4 years… I guess this way we won’t cheer for the Cavs and hope they win. Instead we can now all hope they lose! I always hated that I felt ok with the Heat winning because they had Mario.
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@Kip_McSmithers ditto!
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@Kip_McSmithers the reality of the matter is the Cavs are desperate right now. They have Lebron and will pull out all the stops to try and win a NBA championship now. Even if that means trading away the future. People can say what they want about the Wolves but their playing this the right way. They don’t won’t anything the Bulls want to trade or anybody else for that matter. They want Wiggs.
This whole Wiggs for Love is really a good representation of our society today. Get what you can get now and don’t worry about the future. No wonder so many people and teams end up with nothing. It’s kind of like a poker game. Somebody gets a couple aces and bets chasing the cum. All the while the guy across the table has a boat (full house) with 2’s and 8’s. They maybe just 2’s and 8’s yet between the two of them there is five of them and they beat a couple of aces. Spurs anybody?
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@ParisHawk I’m not sure if his signing means he or his handlers are OK with him leaving. More likely, they just realize they have very little leverage. What were his options really? He could, as you say, put off signing, but for how long and to what cost? Even if he’d successfully made it to the start of the season, LeBron would probably resent him and quite possibly other teammates (even if they are just blindly following LBJ), it’s quite possible the Cavs wouldn’t even play him for fear of injury nullifying the deal, and if he did play how many passes could he expect to come his way?
So his other option would be to…go play in Europe or somewhere else for a year? I’m operating under the assumption that he would re-enter the draft the following year. I could be wrong on that, but I’m pretty sure that’s how it would work if he didn’t sign at all. And even if he did that, there’s no assurances he’d be picked by a team he liked. He could end up back in Minnesota. Or some other nowhere destination.
Best to just start the clock on his 3 or 4 year tenure with the Wolves and become a free agent afterwards.
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@icthawkfan316 Good points, though depressing. At least he got the max contract.
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@ParisHawk : He got the max contract because the Cavs know they aren’t going to be paying it (well only 30 days of it…) and to decrease the difference in $$ between the Cavs - Wolves trade.
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@DoubleDD What is the purpose of sports teams? To quote the sometimes insightful Herm Edwards "You play to win the game! Hello!
Cleveland has an opportunity over the next handful of years to win a championship. That’s what sports franchises should do. They should work to win a title and, when those opportunities present themselves, go for it.
San Antonio has done that better than most. They got Tim Duncan to pair with David Robinson. They won two titles that way. Once Robinson retired, they had Parker and Ginobili waiting in the wings. One of the things that gets downplayed quite a bit is that Duncan, Parker and Ginobili have all kept their salaries down to help keep that team together under the salary cap. That’s how the Spurs have been able to be so successful. If they had to pay market value for Duncan and Parker all these years, they probably would not have been able to keep that team together. Once Ginobili retires, they will probably use his salary space to sign Kawhi Leonard to a big deal and let the cycle repeat itself. It’s not like the Spurs beat the Heat with also ran type players. Parker is an all star. Duncan is one of the best 10-15 players EVER. Ginobili is a top 75 player in the NBA. Leonard is one of the best 35 players in the league. They beat Miami because they had a lot of great players, too.
So now Cleveland looks around. They know Love is getting traded and most likely, if he gets dealt, he’s either coming to Cleveland or he’s going to Chicago. If he goes to Chicago, that’s probably strengthening your biggest rival. More than anything, Cleveland has to be in on this to be sure that Chicago, a team that has been decent without Derrick Rose, doesn’t all of a sudden put some distance between themselves and the rest of the East.
There are only a handful of teams each year with a legitimate shot at a title. Right now those teams are San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Cleveland, and Chicago. Depending on what happens with the Donald Sterling situation, you may be able to add the Clippers to that list. Beyond that, I can’t really point to anybody. But the thing is, if you’re on that list, you have to do what you can to finish it off.
That was Miami’s mistake last season. They let a valuable guy like Mike Miller go when they were basically right on the brink of a title. They were on the list and took a step back. Remember, the Spurs were one loose ball and a Ray Allen three from beating Miami last year. Miami helped them close the gap and, while they weren’t looking, the Spurs zoomed right past. Cleveland saw that. Everybody in the NBA saw it. Lots of NBA people talked all season about how not having Miller would hurt Miami in the playoffs. Cleveland knows what happened. They have a shot at a title - maybe multiple titles. They can either finish it off, or they can be the Buffalo Bills of the early 90’s.
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@justanotherfan Very well put. While I am a Wiggins fan, think he is going to be a very good (if not great) player, and really my only interest in the whole situation is wanting him to land in the best situation, I simply can’t understand the logic of not trying to win a championship because of something uncertain in the future.
At the end of the day, it’s about playing the odds. Are the odds ever going to be more in Cleveland’s favor than right now? They have the best player in the league with a few years of his prime still left. They have an all-star point guard. They have veterans taking less money to come play with him and try and help win a championship. The east is weak and vulnerable. And they have a chance to add one of the top 10-15 players in the league to that mix. So now you weigh those odds against the odds that not only will Wiggins progress to become a future star, but also that by keeping him you end up with a better team in the future than you have now, and that the east is as ripe for the taking as it is right now. Sure, sometimes the long-shot pays off. But clearly the odds of winning a championship favor the first scenario.
I’ll listen to and even make the argument that keeping Wiggins might make the Cavs a better team now, but to keep Wiggins because he might make give them a better chance in the future, well to me that’s just not very logical.
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@justanotherfan these are very valid points. However just because Cleveland trades for Love, it doesn’t grantee multiple champions, one champion or that they will even make it to the championship game. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think a team shouldn’t explore trades and FA’s to better or increase their chance of winning a championship. I get this, believe me I really do.
This was never my argument. My argument is how do you trade a player with the potential of Wiggs without seeing what the Kid can do? This concept that proven is always better than potential is a weak stance and is hollow. As in every trade, fee agent signing, or drafted player there is risk.
I understand I walk a different path, talk a different game, and have different thoughts about Love for Wiggs, proven versus potential, building for the future versus going for it all now than most. It’s ok I’m cool with it.
However let me ask you a question or anybody that would like to respond? Years from now and your looking back will you remember that team that sold out their future to win that lone championship, or will you remember that team that protected their future and wins multiple championships? The Spurs may have traded and picked up players along the way but they protected their future, their potential. They never sold out their future. That is why they are the best run franchise in the NBA.
This is the best way I can put it. I get trading Love for Wiggs. However nobody and I mean nobody can convince me trading Wiggs for Love. Well not until you at least see what the kid can do with the parts you already have. I mean a player of Wiggs athletic ability only comes around so often. Wouldn’t you want to see what you have before trading the kid?
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I think the Spurs are a great example of this, but I think to make the comparison work, we have to look at the Spurs prior to acquiring Tim Duncan.
In 1987 the Spurs drafted David Robinson #1 overall. He didn’t start playing with them immediately due to military service, but when he did he quickly became a top player in the NBA and led the Spurs to the playoffs just about every season. However, the Spurs never advanced further than the Western Conference Finals during that time. They never really got themselves into that group of championship contenders. They were good every year, but they never crossed from good to great.
It wasn’t until they were able to pair Robinson and Duncan together for a couple of years that they broke through and won their first title. Of course, after that they were stifled by the Lakers for a few years, but then they won another title with Duncan and Robinson. But the only reason they were able to win that 2003 title was because they went out and got Stephen Jackson (pre-Palace brawl) and a couple of other pieces (including a very young Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili) to help out. Without Jackson, Ginobili and Parker they don’t win that 2003 title. They probably end up returning to the level that San Antonio was at through the early and mid nineties, as a solid but not championship level team.
If you have a chance to get better parts, you do it because the window could slam shut at any moment. What if Derrick Rose comes back at an MVP level playing with Joakim Noah, Kevin Love and others? What if Kevin Durant, Serge Ibaka and Russell Westbrook explode out west and turn into a dynasty? You can’t assume that everything will remain static. It won’t. So either you move forward or your opponents pass you.
I’d love to see what Wiggins, Lebron and Irving could do. It could make for some really fun 3 on 2 fast breaks. But I think Cleveland can get a better basketball situation if they have Love, Lebron and Irving.
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Once a player is drafted the team retains the right for quite some time. If he goes to play overseas, the Cavs would retain his right for one year AFTER he is done playing there; so going overseas does not help him unless he wants to sit a year after playing overseas. This how many teams draft European players that they know will not be available for several years and basically “park” them there.
Here is an article that does a good and balanced job describing Wiggins potential and the “build vs buy”, “right vs wrong”, “San Antonio vs Miami” approach to forming a championship caliber team.
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However let me ask you a question or anybody that would like to respond? Years from now and your looking back will you remember that team that sold out their future to win that lone championship, or will you remember that team that protected their future and wins multiple championships?
@DoubleDD The flaw in that assumption is that by keeping Wiggins and “protecting their future” they win multiple championships. Obviously everyone will always remember a team on a multiple championship run versus a team that wins a lone championship. But what if the Cavs keep Wiggins, Love goes to the Bulls, the Cavs come away with zero championships, and the Bulls are the team to win multiple championships? Still think the future was worth protecting then?
As I said, it’s about odds. You weigh the odds of scenario A versus scenario B. I think where most people are disagreeing with you is your optimism regarding the odds of Wiggins leading the team to championships. It’s certainly possible, but I think it’s definitely the longer shot.
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@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for clearing up the overseas situation for me. After you brought it up, I do remember reading several things about teams “stashing” Euro players overseas while retaining their rights, either to help them develop or to assist in keeping them under the cap.
And thanks for the link. I don’t want to come off as someone who thinks that this is a no-brainer trade. Aside from my personal feelings of not wanting to see Wiggins banished to Minnesota, there’s a lot to not like about this trade. Having to give up Bennett, a #1 pick, and probably more players just to make the money work will gut the roster and any roster flexibility the Cavs may have had quickly evaporates. This is to say nothing that I’m not 100% convinced that the Cavs would be appreciably better with Love than they would be with Wiggins & Co.
It’s all about risk/reward. And it’s all uncertain. It’s for everyone to individually decide what those risks are, how likely they are, and if they’re worth the reward.
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@icthawkfan316 - You say my assumption of keeping Wiggins is flawed. Yet in the same breath you and everyone assumes if the Cavs make this trade they are a championship team. Every move you make to acquire a player or players is a gamble or risk. Love guarantee’s nothing but that he can spread the court and play no defense.
I could just at easily say that the Wolves trade Love to the Bulls and they win nothing, and the Cavs keep Wiggins on go to win the next 3 championships. You can’t just have it one way. You may feel my thinking is flawed but there is no guarantee that any team wins a championship with Love or Wiggs for that matter. These are all gambles.
However the Cavs drafted Wiggs and have him under contract. What’s the bigger gamble to keep him or trade him? That’s the question. I know I’m reaching on Wiggs being a great one, however I don’t see how you trade the kid before you see what you have. That’s just me. I mean if the logical choice is always the proven player then why even draft at all?
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@DoubleDD You’re right, it’s all a gamble. And as I’ve said, it’s all about playing the odds. I don’t assume that trading for Love makes the Cavs a championship team. What I do assume is that it increases the odds. It’s not “having it one way”, it’s objectively assessing the percentages. Heck, there’s a chance the TWolves keep Love, they win the championship, and he decides to re-sign with Minnesota. Of course, that chance is very slim. You wouldn’t want to gamble on those odds. If you accept that premise, then it’s all a matter of what odds you assign to the other various outcomes. And really that’s what we’re all quibbling over. And it is all subjective; just our opinions. I’d love for the Cavs to give Wiggs a fair shot for 30 games or so to see how this team looks. Right now they seem committed to trading him for Love
As to why you draft, well not every year is a team going to be willing to trade a player the caliber of Kevin Love. Just like not every year is the team with the top pick going to be thrust into the position of competing for the Eastern Conference title. If the Cavs were without LeBron and the title window wasn’t open, of course you don’t trade Wiggins for Love. But this is the model we see all across sports. Teams that are in rebuilding mode (the TWolves in this case) trading away whatever proven assets they have (Love) in exchange for cheaper, younger, unknown assets (Wiggins, Bennett, draft picks) from teams that are closer to title contention (Cavs). The Royals have been doing this for years, trading away guys like Carlos Beltran or Zach Grienke for unproven prospects. They’re finally at a point where they are closer to being buyers than sellers.
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I wonder what the situation would be if Wiggins stays in Cleveland. LeBron has barely mentioned him, the most positive comment he has made is that he is “intrigued” by his potential and has openly and publicly advocated trading (or should it be throwing) him to the Wolves for Love. When you think about it, you wonder if LeBron has the “next LeBron” moniker assigned to Wiggins in the back of his mind and sees him more as a potential rival than as a teammate. Keep in mind that that at times he was a real a$$ with Mario in Miami and his behavior was largely ignored by the press since Mario was not a high profile player; would he pull the same crap with Wiggins? Would Wiggins put up with it? Interesting question to ponder on a news-light summer day.
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@JayHawkFanToo he would pull the same crap and wiggins is young, so probably he’d take it. Mario did. Not a Lebron fan!!
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@icthawkfan316 I always love your posts and comments. Sometimes I disagree and sometimes I see yours and relax on mine. However dude you just brought the Royals into this this subject??? MLB and the NBA are quite different. The Royals have traded away all their proven talent over the past two decades because one David Glass is a cheap owner, and not a very good friend. As he promised Mister K he would run the team and sell it to local KC owners when the time is right at Mister K’s wishes. However Mister David Glass is making to much money running the Royals into the ground. The second, MLB doesn’t have a salary cap It has a luxury tax so a big market team like the Yankees can just buy all the players they want, forcing small market teams like the Royals to trade proven all stars for potential, or they lose them anyways.
Look I get it this trade makes sense to you, but it doesn’t to me. I don’t make this trade until I see what I have. Like I said the athletic ability, size, body of Wiggs doesn’t come around very often. Love is a dime a dozen, especially since he doesn’t play defense. No way I trade a potential future Jordan, Bird, Magic, Bryant, or Duncan. Until I see what the kid can do. I don’t care what Lebron says or you for that matter.
Nothing but Love (pun intended) Icthawkfan316
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If Love is so great, where are all the other NBA teams trying to trade for him. Surely more than 2 teams should have interest? And Cleveland didn’t seem to have huge interest until His Highness seemed to weigh.
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@Bwag There are numerous reasons why there aren’t more teams vying to acquire Love in a trade. It’s not that every team wouldn’t love to have him. Don’t let yourself believe that’s the case.
First of all, you don’t give up what Minnesota is asking for Love if you are not close to a championship. It doesn’t make sense if you are rebuilding to trade away prospects & picks. So immediately, the list of teams that are close to being viable championship caliber teams dramatically cuts the list of teams that would reasonably look to acquire Love via a trade down to a handful. Maybe 6 or so.
Second, because so much is required to acquire Love via a trade, an even smaller number of teams already possess the necessary pieces to trade for him while still leaving enough of a talented roster to compete for the championship. This reduces the number of teams further.
Third, because you are going to have to sacrifice so many young pieces to acquire Love, any team willing to do so will likely only agree to a trade if they have certain assurances that he has genuine interest in signing for your team long term. No one wants to sell the farm for a one year rental.
Fourth, Love isn’t going to come cheap. He’s already making $15.7 million this season and will most definitely command a raise on the open market. So while the monetary value has to be somewhat equal on both sides to trade for him, whatever team that ends up with Love has to make sure they can fit him under the cap next season at an increased figure.
So we see that it’s not that other NBA teams aren’t interested in having a player like Love on their roster, but rather that so few actually fit all 4 of these criteria. And you’re right, Cleveland didn’t have interest in Love before LeBron (aka “His Highness” ) signed with them, because they didn’t meet the first criteria - they were not going to be a championship caliber team. Adding LeBron instantly made them contenders, at least to come out of the East.
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@DoubleDD Thank you for the compliments; I’m glad you enjoy my posts. Likewise, even when we disagree, yours are always welcome. It’s nice to have respectful disagreements with others that are able to competently express their side.
You’re right - there are definite differences between MLB and the NBA. However, I would argue that the end result is the same. Whether teams can’t keep the players that they draft & develop because of financial considerations (such as in MLB where the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. can simply outbid the smaller market teams), or whether they can’t keep them because their franchise is not an ideal free agent destination (due to location, bad management, media exposure, etc.), the result is that teams such as Minnesota just can’t keep high-end players because they will eventually walk, and thus are forced to trade them for prospects & picks or get nothing for them in return. The CBA attempted to curb this trend by giving players financial incentives to re-sign with their current club - Minnesota can offer more and for more years than any team looking to sign him in free agency. We saw this with Melo & the Knicks. But at the end of the day, some (if not most) have still chosen to walk to a more desirable destination.
I am in 100% agreement with you in that I would also like to see Wiggins suit up for the Cavs, to see how good he is, how good the team is with him, etc. But I also see Cleveland’s perspective. What if Wiggins bombs? Then he’s no longer as attractive a trade piece. What if he gets injured?
Lastly, while I do enjoy your counterpoints, in saying that you don’t care what I say, I read that as you don’t even consider an opinion other than your own. That you’re so close-minded, it doesn’t matter how logical or reasoned another point-of-view is, you reject it out of hand. And if that’s the case, why would anyone continue to engage you in conversation? This is an NBA issue so at the end of the day it’s not of great importance to me, but when KU basketball season starts won’t you wish that your fellow fans and posters here read your posts, respond to them, value your opinions even if they don’t fall in line with their own? Maybe you don’t care, but that is why I come here - for the debate, to get different perspectives (often from people far more knowledgable than me about the game), etc.
Maybe that’s not what you meant, but that’s how it reads.
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Wiggins does not have a history of injuries while Love does. In his 6 years in the NBA Lobe has played 81, 60, 73, 55, 18, 77 out of a n 82 game season. I would be more concerned with Love getting injured than Wiggins, Remember when Love got his elbow injure while sleeping? Now he has pulled out from the FIBA Basketball World Cup USA team supposedly because his contract status, but the talk is that he does not want to risk injury. So much for that.
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I’m thinking the same when comparing Wigs to Love.
But I’m a bit reserved on Wigs’ health through his first year. I believe his jump from college to NBA will be more challenging than HS to college. I’m not sure he’ll get away with some of his hard drives in the league. In the league you are expected to pay a price for wanting to finish at the rim. The really great players learned to protect themselves, and I’m not sure young Andrew has ever had to develop that skill. In my books, playing 80-100 games a year without major injury while having the balls to take it to the rack is probably the most skillful aspect of NBA play… especially during the playoffs. No one gives the paint away during the playoffs.
So what will Wigs do? Will he avoid the paint? He is going to be under a lot of pressure to perform regardless of where he plays. I don’t see him putting up big numbers from the perimeter, at least, not right away.
I hope he remains calm and doesn’t bite on the hook of trying to finish at the rim. Maybe later in his career, after he learns how to take care of himself out there.
I think he should mold his game after Kobe. Develop his ability to create scoring space from the perimeter and learn how to knock 'em down with a hand in his face. Then, on occasion, take selective moves to the rim.
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@icthawkfan316 not once have I said your views where flawed. Not once. Yet you said mine were. In fact I posted on many occasions I understand where your coming from. Yet somehow I’m flawed because I wouldn’t trade Wiggs before I see what I have. Think about this what if the Bulls would have traded Jordan, or the Celtics traded Bird, or the Lakers traded Magic? Think the GM Would still have a job? or that the fans would be happy with the one championship? Besides I backed that last statement with a joke. Maybe you should lighten up a little, because I’m telling you, any body else I don’t make this trade until I see what I have. Wiggs is a once in a life time kind of talent. Yea the odds are against him, but he has the ability to do it. Sorry dude I’m seeing what the kid has. You say there really is not risk in trading potential for a proven player. Well I can tell you this I wouldn’t want to be remembered as the guy that traded a future in NBA great. Just saying.
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Wiggs is a once in a life time kind of talent.
Too much hyperbole? I would have to strongly disagree with that statement. “once in lifetime” implies the best player ever, doesn’t it? younger players are taller, faster, stronger, better trained, so, we likely have not seen the best player in our lifetime.
I believe that Wiggins might be the best “prospect” in a couple or maybe even several years, based mostly on his freakish athleticism; however, there are lots of players in the NBA with similar athletic ability. The NBA history is full of player that were “the next Wilt” or “the next Jordan” and more recently “the next LeBron,” and some never lived up to the hype, some went to have good but not great careers and a few went to have superior careers. I believe that Wiggins will have a superior career but I would not (at least not yet) anoint him as a “once in lifetime” talent.
I too would like to see what he can do and I would take the chance and keep him. However, because LeBron’s stance on the issue, the locker room chemistry might have been permanently damaged, given that Wiggins, Bennett and whoever else LeBron was willing to throw under the bus will likely get considerable playing time and they might not look at LeBron’s position kindly; I know I would not.
On related news, It is being reported that Love’s agent had officially asked for a trade to Cleveland, which would weaken the Wolves position considerably and strengthen the Cavs, who now might be able to offer less. The saga continues.
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“However, because LeBron’s stance on the issue, the locker room chemistry might have been permanently damaged…”
Could be. But I think LeBron pushes people around now as a test. He wants to know if they are as committed to making it work as he is. I know it may be hard to understand it that way, but he pushes back hardest on his own teammates to see who puts their head down and holds on to resentment, and who pushes back and lets him know they “want it” as much as him.
If I think of it that way, I can rationalize what he is doing. I do think LeBron realizes he only has a limited time left in the league, so he doesn’t want to squander it around guys that are not 100% on board, including with a total team mindset. That sounds like a contradiction to his actions, but he is testing… and he is testing young Andrew to see what he is made of.
Kevin Love may be a higher risk of injury… but part of that risk relates to him willing to take gambles in order to win. How soon will Andrew be ready to make those kinds of gambles? And will he be able to quickly learn how to limit his risk by seeing more of the game and using some defensive techniques to help prevent injury? A great guy to watch and learn from is Ray Allen. If I was Cleveland, I would forget Love and I’d go after Ray Allen. He’s a guy that won’t eat up their salary cap and would be a great teacher to put with all that youth.
From what I understand, Allen is unsigned and not sure what he wants to do. He currently isn’t listed on the Heat.
Andrew has a lot to prove, and it will take years for him to prove himself, and it will take both good and bad fortune for him to prove himself. All the greats had to endure plenty of everything, like playing injured in the playoffs. No one cares if you have a bum ankle in the playoffs. Your fans want you to produce, period, and the greats step up to the challenge. I always give the Isiah Thomas example: Game 6 in the 1988 NBA Playoffs, Lakers vs Pistons. Thomas’ ankle was badly sprained and the size of a large grapefruit and he played through the pain and even scored 25 points in a quarter to help keep his team in the game (an NBA record).
It really doesn’t matter what Andrew does his rookie year… his proof will come over his career. I just hope he realizes that and doesn’t try to do more than he can in his first season. He has the athleticism to try anything… but to succeed, he’ll need a ton more seasoning and practice. It will take a huge sacrifice for him to get to the success level that matches all the hype. And he’ll need some outrageously good luck to get to that level without being setback with major injuries.
The best thing going for Andrew is not his athleticism… it’s his background… it’s his parents… there to guide him along the way because he is going to need to play this right if he wants to become one of the greats. It is a long, long road ahead for young Andrew.
