The Lebron Legacy
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@HighEliteMajor wouldn’t that be 3 in the bush? One bird is a Jhawk!
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The following excerpt is from a Grantland article where they graded NBA teams in the offseason (btw, if you don’t already you should really spend some time on Grantland. The writing is better, more in-depth, and often times very humorous):
"One of the funny parts about spending way too much time on the Internet is that sometimes you initially agree with a criticism, but then everybody starts talking about it and tweeting about it, one-upping each other with hotter takes, and eventually the opinions get taken so far that you can’t help but double back and start defending what you were initially criticizing.That’s what happened with Daryl Morey this week.
It went like this:
• “Wow, the Rockets really looked like idiots in the end this summer.” (Yep.) • “Morey isn’t as invincible as everyone says he is.” (100 percent.) • “What happened this summer was a colossal mistake.” (Umm …) • “Morey’s just a product of incestuous media putting him on a pedestal. He’s never been that great” (OK.) • “Seven years in Houston, and Morey’s made the second round once. Why doesn’t anyone write an article about THAT?” [Backing away slowly] • “FINALLY, the myth of Morey is being exposed.” (Wait, what?) • “Will the Rockets even make the playoffs this year?” (WHAT?)"
I feel this is what has happened to me with the Wiggins trade. Here I am defending the legitimacy of it to DoubleDD, when the fact is I don’t want it to happen, and I’m not even sure it should happen.
All due respect to @HighEliteMajor, but to me it’s not a “no-brainer”, and there is plenty of room for debate. The first thing that I’d say to ANYONE quoting stats is - did you watch him play? If you didn’t, spare me the fantasy basketball line. After that I’d ask anyone that thinks it is a no-brainer if they know how this team looks. Do they know how LeBron & Irving are going to co-exist, how they’re going to space the floor. Do they know the team’s strengths & weaknesses. No? And because we don’t know how this team will look, do we know how Kevin Love will fit in with it? Is he a sure thing with this team? Do we see a stat drop like we saw with Bosh when he left the Raptors for the Heat? Can three guys such as LBJ, Irving, & Love, who all demand the ball and are volume type scorers, play together effectively?
I get that it’s the known commodity vs potential debate (I’ve been essentially extolling the virtues of trading for the known commodity with my most recent post to DoubleDD), so it may seem like I’m flip-flopping, or arguing to argue, or playing devil’s advocate to everyone on the site. But my position has been wait and see. Maybe out of my fear of Wiggins landing in Minnesota. I know sentimentally, I want Wiggins to stay in Cleveland because I think it will be best for his development. Objectively, I think at the end of the day you probably make this trade, but still there’s no harm in waiting other than maybe Wiggins gets hurt and you can’t do the deal. I just think it’s too quick to assume what’s best for a group of players we’ve never seen play together.
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@icthawkfan316 I understand what your saying, in that if you can win a championship by picking up a piece here or there. You do it. However Kevin Love is not just a piece he is a chunk, that demands minutes and the ball in hand. Yes it’s easy (HEM) to look up Kevin Loves numbers and say oh yea this guy is the real deal. Trade half your team for him. However if you watched the guy play. He can’t play defense and a lot of his scoring happens when the game has already been decided.
Icthawkfan316 I guess the thing for me is how do you trade a player like Wiggins without even seeing what the kid can do? I understand the odds of Wiggins becoming the next Jordan, Bird, Magic and so on are slim, but there is a chance. And that is what baffles me. Why you would you just trade the kid without even seeing what he could do with the pieces you already have.
Icthawkfan316 do you really think if the Bulls would’ve traded Jordan and won one championship because of that trade, while Jordan went some where else and won 6 championship and became the greatest player to play the game is a good trade? I know comparing Wiggins to Jordan is kind of funny, but that’s what I’m saying we just don’t know.
I think you’re a lot like me on this, just a little more leveled headed about it. You want to see what Wiggins can do before you pull the trigger on such a trade. (I have checked out that Grantland article) I too understand that if there are pieces out there to make your team better you have to at least entertain such thoughts. I guess what bothers me the most about all this is. I feel that Lebron had his mind made up to move Wiggins before he signed on the dotted line. Whether it’s Kevin Love or not, Wiggins will be traded, and that kind of bothers me. Also the idea of trading Kevin Love for Wiggins is a no brainer. Well that’s just dumb. If it’s such a no brainer then the Cavs should have never drafted Wiggins yet instead just traded the first pick for Love. As it seems by some no matter who is drafted you make that trade?
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To reiterate the hypothesis: Wiggins’ posse and adidas want out of the Cleveland-Lebron-Nike complex and that is why trading for Love resurfaced.
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What is Andrew Wiggins’ ceiling? That’s really a big part of this question when it comes to trading him.
Some say that he could be like Durant or Lebron or Jordan or Kobe or someone along those lines. I for one just don’t see it. He’s not that type of offensive force. He has the tools to be a good offensive player, but I don’t foresee him ever being a 25 ppg guy. I could be wrong. Of course, there’s a lot of disagreement among NBA guys about what his ceiling is.
I look at Andrew Wiggins and I see the potential for a Scottie Pippen type of player - superb defensively, with enough offense to carry a team in short bursts, but not the type of guy that can carry you for months at a time like a Durant, Jordan or Kobe.
For a more contemporary comparison, I actually would look at a player like Indiana’s Paul George. Another tremendous defensive player who has some skills offensively as well. Unfortunately, Paul George is also somewhat limited by the fact that his ball handling is not quite elite enough to make him a great driver in the NBA, which means he doesn’t get to the FT line much (only about 6 times a game this year, which was a career high). That lack of FTs means he has to make a lot of FGs, and as a non post player, that means a lot of contested jumpers have to fall. His FG % has settled in around 42% the last two years as he’s become more of a scorer precisely because some of those jumpers are not going down. I think Wiggins will be similar. When he gets his jumper going, he can go for a ton like he did against West Virginia. On the other hand, he can disappear for long periods if he can’t get those good looks because he can’t get to the paint at will like Jordan or Kobe or Lebron or Durant.
Not to say that he won’t be a good NBA player. I just comp’ed him to one of the 50 best players ever (Pippen) and a two time NBA all star (George). If he lands in that range, he’s definitely a success. I’m just not sure you don’t trade a guy with that ceiling for an in his prime Kevin Love.
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@jaybate 1.0 you know in all the if’s and but’s, proven vs potential, what could be, what couldn’t be and what will never be. You my friend may have hit the nail on head. Here I am making a mountain out of a mole hill. When really it’s about shoe companies duking it out. LMAO.
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@justanotherfan Another really good analysis.
I think a more accurate question here is what is the probability Wiggins reaches his ceiling? Or put another way, how close can he get to his ceiling? Because to me, his ceiling is more or less set. It’s not on a sliding scale. I think his ceiling is that of either a Kobe Bryant, or as you said a Scottie Pippen. The height of one’s ceiling is largely defined by one’s physical gifts, athleticism, & physique. Because for the most part those are the things that can’t be taught or learned. Almost everyone can be taught the mechanics of a good jump shot, or improve their basketball IQ. Andrew has the physical tools that extend his ceiling about as high as anyone short of LeBron. I don’t think that’s really in question. Speed, length, quickness, vertical, etc. He has it all. If you were constructing an ideal NBA 2-guard, physically he’d look an awful lot like Wiggins.
I think Wiggins’ ceiling is probably closer to Pippen than Kobe because of something else that I think defines the height of the ceiling, and that is a killer instinct (for lack of a better term). That was one of the few questions about him at KU, and one of the bigger questions regarding him going into the draft. Does he have that killer instinct, that alpha mentality? I don’t know that he does, and I don’t know that I’ve ever seen someone develop that at the NBA level. He’s competitive, which is part of it, but few players have that utter loathing and hatred towards their opponents like Jordan, Bird, & Kobe did.
So again, the real question to me is how high can he get to his ceiling? Can he improve upon the things that would elevate him from perhaps someone of Paul George’s stature (great comparison by the way), to that of a Pippen or even a Kobe? The two areas that he needs to improve upon the most to approach his ceiling are his ball handling and jump shooting.
Who knows what the best path is for Wiggins to maximize his talents. I’ve been of the belief that playing in Cleveland would be better because he wouldn’t have the pressure of having to be “the man”. But there is no one true path to greatness. Look at Kobe, drafted out of high school and wasn’t a starter until his 3rd year. Averaged only 15 mpg his rookie year. Or look at Jordan and how many years he had to struggle carrying the Bulls to mediocre team success before finally breaking through in '91. Look at Durant’s rookie year in Seattle when he shot 43% from the field and 28.8% from 3.
There’s no one true path to greatness. Here’s to hoping Wiggins can find his, wherever it may be.
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@icthawkfan316 nice write! Killer instinct, so you either have it or not? Keep thinking that Wigs is only 19. Body will fill out, shot will get better, handles will improve. I think w/physical growth, experiences (good or bad) and knowledge, a person can develop a killer instinct. Jmo!
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FWIW, in the lats game he played in Vegas he hit 15-20 free throws, which would appear to indicate he has become a lot more aggressive.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’ve been watching the summer league. I think Wigs is more aggressive, but will develop that killer instinct in time! Trying to figure what’s going on w/EJ. He hasn’t been listed at all the last 2 games. Can’t figure out why TT and Josh can’t even get a shot for summer league. Tarik’s been pretty solid, a few TO’s. Heslips been scoring like he’s playing us!
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Crimsonorblue22 and JayHawkFanToo I’m not sure being aggressive and having a killer instinct are two in the same. Having a killer instinct is not something you acquire. It’s kind of like running faster or jumping higher than anyone. It’s like a gift. There are many players that have had the killer instinct but not the tools. It can go both ways.
A player with a killer instinct is never afraid to take the winning shot. In fact they demand to. They have the ability to sense that very moment when the opposing team is about to quiver and give up, and in that moment deliver the final blow.
A player with a killer instinct doesn’t just want to dunk on you, they want to attend your family reunion and dunk on your whole family. Sadly this could be the very thing that’s keeps Wiggins from attaining his ceiling. Yet who knows maybe he has it, just hasn’t had a reason to show it yet?
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@DoubleDD nice point! I agree they are different, but he does want that shot at the end of game, think WV game. I do think w/age, or experience, for sure w/me, you develop an edge. I want him to have that! What jhawk over the last few years, would you say has that killer instinct? Just curious? Tarik is playing now.
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While I generally agree with your characterization, there is a fine line between having a killer instinct and being a selfish player or ball hog. A selfish player will take the last shot, regardless of how easy or difficult it is, while the player with the true killer instinct will find a teammate under the basket and make the pinpoint pass that allows the teammate to score the easy basket and win the game.
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@Crimsonorblue22 And JayhawkFanToo very valid points. If I had to think of a recent KU player that had a killer instinct? Man that is a tough question. We could almost start a new tread on that one. If had to pick one I guess I would say S. Collins. Dude was never afraid to take it to the hoop, and always wanted the ball in is hands. I will say this I think maybe Selden might have that killer instinct too. Good question.
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@DoubleDD TRob for sure! Have to think on this. For sure Collins!
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Why would adidas want their marquis endorsement player playing in Lebron’s Nike shadow? Doesn’t make a lick of sense?
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@jaybate 1.0 as usually you’re the voice of reason. It’s just Minnesota? How can I root for Minnesota? I read a rumor though. The person predicted Lebron would go back to the Cavs, and Carmello would resign with the Knicks. So far so good. His last prediction Phil Jackson would trade Carmello for Wiggins? Is it possible? Can I dream? OH wait tell me the Knicks aren’t a Nike team? Please? Please?
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Interesting stuff. I didn’t even realize Phil was with the Knicks. From Nike’s POV, burying Wigs in Tundraville might make good tactical and strategic sense. And Melo and Lebron would make a much better transcept type team than Love and Lebron would make an in-out type team.
On the other hand, NYC media could be very tough for Wigs to grow up with as an NBA PLAYER. The best trade off of market size and market friendliness would be a Texas franchise.
But there are risks any way. The best thing for Wigs is to get with a great coach/organization ASAP. Wigs’ posse got him to Self. My guess is they will get him to a great NBA COAC/organization setting too. Phil certainly qualifies as a great. The Knicks were great once and could be again.
Good diamonds can’t look their best without good setting!
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@jaybate 1.0 Phil Jackson isn’t coaching the Knicks he’s the president. I totally agree on Wigs to a Texas team, however he is from Canada?
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@HighEliteMajor and has won what?
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The reason LeBron only signed a two year deal is the fact the NBA is signing a new TV deal in two years and he hopes he can get an even larger paycheck at that time. He now will be able to negotiate a better contract in two years and also has the choice to opt out after one season to renegotiate next summer. Player options only can come before the final season of a contract, another reason for the two-year deal. The TV component is important and valuable. The NBA and players share basketball-related income (BRI) at a near 50-50 split, and TV revenue is included in BRI. The higher the BRI, the more money for players. Also don’t be surprised if James negotiates and re-negotiates max deals that are shorter in length for the next few seasons. The players and owners have the option to terminate the current CBA after the 2016-17 season, which could lead to another change in maximum contracts.
Now why would the Wolves agree to the Cavs trade when the Warriors have a much better package??
####Cavs are offering Wiggins, Bennett, Brendan Haywood, and next years first rounder (which would be a late first rounder since Cavs + Love = big things…) So really you’re getting Wiggins (unknown prospect), Bennett (failed his first year, may get better, may not), Haywood (UNC alum that hasn’t amounted to much), and a border line second rounder. Throw in the fact that Wiggins hasn’t signed his contract and it’s not sure if the dollar signs will match up. To make this deal work the Cavs would either have to add Tristan Thompson to the pot or seek out a third team to make the money all equal out.
The Warriors have a deal of ####Barnes, Lee, and Thompson for Love and Kevin Martin which works money wise without much additional wrangling (aside from whether the Wolves would demand the Warriors’ 2015 draft pick). With Barnes, Lee, and Thompson you’re getting three players that you know about. None are prospects. Thompson, Lee, and then Barnes were 2, 3, and 4 in team scoring last year. And Lee was second on the team in rebounds.
Now I know the Wolves have been a very bad organization the past decade or two, but are they so inept that they can not to see that 3 starters (Barnes/Lee/Thompson) out weigh 1, maybe 2 starters (Wiggins/Thompson if he’s included).
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@drgnslayr I will second your wish that Andrew wind up with SA. Don’t know how long Pop will be there, though. Could Self become Spurs coach at that point?
How long could Minnesota control Andrew’s future if he is traded? Could he be a RFA after 3 or 4 years?
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@EdwordL : Rookie contracts are 2 years, with the 3rd and the 4th year being team options.
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@Bwag What has Wiggins won? Wiggins is what is called an “expectancy” … like the money one might get from a grandparent when they pass away. It’s not yours until it is. Wiggins isn’t anything yet. Love is.
What would you call Wiggins if, before age 25, he put up Love like numbers?
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HEM, no question that Love has awesome numbers, but you need to put the numbers in context. Not taking anything away from him, but his stats are partly the result of playing for the Wolves, where he is not “one” of the options, he is “the” option and the alpha dog/woolf, and if you watch him play, you will see him jump over teammates to get rebounds to pad his stats.
Like in real estate, location, location, location; where you play makes a big diference. Remember how many times it has been written in this board that players like Andrew White would be starters with big numbers at other schools, but he could not get meaningful minutes at KU? How about Royce Wooldridge? At KU he got walk-on playing minutes but at Washington State he was second in minutes, averaged almost 10 PPG, including a 36 point outing, and led the team in assists and steals. Look at Chris Bosch’s numbers; he was averaging Love-like numbers in Toronto but his number went markedly down at Miami playing with LeBron and Wade. Again, where you play and who your teammates are makes a huge difference. How good would Karl Malone had been without John Stockton setting him up?
In Cleveland he will be playing with LeBron and Irvin, who much like Love, are not shy about taking shots and they will not defer to Love like his teammates did In Minnesota and he will not be jumping over Varejao and Thompson either. Unlike Ricky Rubio (9.5 PPG, 8.6 APG) at Minnesota, Irving (20.1 PPG, 6.1 APG) is not a pass-first type of point guard and he will take his fair share of shots. What do you think the chances are that Love will maintain those averages if he moves to Cleveland? IMHO, extremely small.
Again, there are two sides to every issue and while Love is a great player, I am not convinced he is the difference maker he is portrayed to be. He might well end up being like Dwight Howard and the Lakers, good individual numbers but a disruptive player that resulted in poor team numbers…or he could be like Shaq and help Cleveland win several rings. It really is a crapshoot.
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@JayHawkFanToo - Part of this is explaining away Love’s dominance by playing on a crappy team. If he is “the” man – “the” option – can’t that also make it hard to produce, thus being “the” focus of the other team? It can go both way.
But I really like your Bosh comparison. That might cause some pause, and supports your theory there. The point guard thing is interesting too.
Coach K said this of Love – “I’ve coached him on two teams, and no pun intended, I love Kevin Love,” he said. “You look at LeBron, and you have the best player in the world. He’s 29, I’m not saying he’s at the end of his career, but he’s in the second-half of his career. And in the first half of his career he was becoming a great player. It took time, just like with Andrew Wiggins, it takes time. LeBron is a great player right now, you do not want to waste any year of a great player’s career. Love is close to being that. He’s not as great a player as LeBron, but he’s there. You know who Love is right now.”
When you say “crapshoot” – to me, it seems like Wiggins, Bennett and a first rounder for Love is worth the gamble given you have Lebron. Best shot, % wise, to win now.
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Keep in mind that in the NBA is strictly man to man, so unlike college, you can’t really double or triple team a player…if you do, you will be killed by the other players. Remember that every player in the NBA is an elite player compared to the total population, so while some are better that others, even the lesser players are pretty darn good.
The other point is that Love is going to come at the max. salary of about $22M. To accommodate his salary, Cleveland will have to shed at least 4 players including Wiggins and Bennett who are on their rookie contracts and making around $5M. The end result will be like Miami, a team with 3 super stars, a couple of role players, has been (Lewis, Hasslem), bidding time 'til retirement (Allen, Battier), never were (Old man Oden) and former/current druggies/screw-ups (Anderson, Beasley); obviously the lack of bench was exposed in the playoffs and they were taken to school by San Antonio and its deep bench.Miami has gotten some good players to replace LeBron, and it might end up being as good as the previous team, definitely more balanced and maybe even better.
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@JayHawkFanToo : I put this in my above post: There is a fourth player that is being included in the deal at this time and it’s Brendan Haywood. But to make the salaries work they will need to do one of two things. Either add another current Cav player or include a 3rd team. Some have said the Cavs may have to include Tristan Thompson to make the money all equal out. But by adding him in the mix Cleveland is putting up 3 lottery picks and they likely won’t want to do that. So the only option left for the Cavs is to find a third team to include in the trade to make all of the $ work. This is why I think the Golden State trade option would be more appealing if I’m the T-Wolves GM.
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@Kip_McSmithers I’m impressed with your grasp of formatting and I’m jealous. Also you know a lot more about NBA teams than I do. Thanks for posting
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@JayHawkFanToo you my friend are on fire. That post is one of best I’ve read. I wish I could Fav 10 times. Also the elephant in the room everybody seems to forget even the great Coach K is LOVE doesn’t play defense. What good does it do to score 20 or 25 points when you give up 30? Just saying.
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@DoubleDD good one!
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Brendan Haywood is a long shot…or maybe not. He is getting up in age and he did not play last season due to injury; coming back from a season ending injury is tough, particularly for an older player. Also, he is the only other center in the team and his 2014 $2M salary might not be enough; he is also schedule for a $10M salary for 2016 which might have to be paid by the Bobcats, but would not count against their cap if I understand correctly, and the team he is playing in that year could waive him and save $10M form their cap…and that is the attractive part of his contract. It is a very complicated contract and I am not sure I fully understand it. Here is a link that might shed some light…
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Wigs signs with Cavs… earns 30 day reprieve…
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@drgnslayr That article explains again why Wiggins’ signing is not a reprieve. As long as he didn’t sign, the Cavs could never trade him for Love because they only had his rights, and the contract value of his rights in a trade would be 0$.
By signing, Wiggins starts the clock on the 30 day waiting period. If he had waited to sign, he could have started the clock at the last minute and forced the Cavs to watch him be on the same floor with Lebron, at least for awhile. Anyway, too late now.
To me, this means his handlers are OK with him leaving. Can’t figure out why, unless as jaybate surmises their brains stop below their ankles.
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I didn’t really think of it that way… but you are right… the clock starts now!
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Wiggins signing sucks. I really hate the fact that in 30 days he will probably be traded to the T-Wolves and be apart of that piss poor organization for probably 4 years… I guess this way we won’t cheer for the Cavs and hope they win. Instead we can now all hope they lose! I always hated that I felt ok with the Heat winning because they had Mario.
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@Kip_McSmithers ditto!
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@Kip_McSmithers the reality of the matter is the Cavs are desperate right now. They have Lebron and will pull out all the stops to try and win a NBA championship now. Even if that means trading away the future. People can say what they want about the Wolves but their playing this the right way. They don’t won’t anything the Bulls want to trade or anybody else for that matter. They want Wiggs.
This whole Wiggs for Love is really a good representation of our society today. Get what you can get now and don’t worry about the future. No wonder so many people and teams end up with nothing. It’s kind of like a poker game. Somebody gets a couple aces and bets chasing the cum. All the while the guy across the table has a boat (full house) with 2’s and 8’s. They maybe just 2’s and 8’s yet between the two of them there is five of them and they beat a couple of aces. Spurs anybody?
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@ParisHawk I’m not sure if his signing means he or his handlers are OK with him leaving. More likely, they just realize they have very little leverage. What were his options really? He could, as you say, put off signing, but for how long and to what cost? Even if he’d successfully made it to the start of the season, LeBron would probably resent him and quite possibly other teammates (even if they are just blindly following LBJ), it’s quite possible the Cavs wouldn’t even play him for fear of injury nullifying the deal, and if he did play how many passes could he expect to come his way?
So his other option would be to…go play in Europe or somewhere else for a year? I’m operating under the assumption that he would re-enter the draft the following year. I could be wrong on that, but I’m pretty sure that’s how it would work if he didn’t sign at all. And even if he did that, there’s no assurances he’d be picked by a team he liked. He could end up back in Minnesota. Or some other nowhere destination.
Best to just start the clock on his 3 or 4 year tenure with the Wolves and become a free agent afterwards.
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@icthawkfan316 Good points, though depressing. At least he got the max contract.
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@ParisHawk : He got the max contract because the Cavs know they aren’t going to be paying it (well only 30 days of it…) and to decrease the difference in $$ between the Cavs - Wolves trade.
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@DoubleDD What is the purpose of sports teams? To quote the sometimes insightful Herm Edwards "You play to win the game! Hello!
Cleveland has an opportunity over the next handful of years to win a championship. That’s what sports franchises should do. They should work to win a title and, when those opportunities present themselves, go for it.
San Antonio has done that better than most. They got Tim Duncan to pair with David Robinson. They won two titles that way. Once Robinson retired, they had Parker and Ginobili waiting in the wings. One of the things that gets downplayed quite a bit is that Duncan, Parker and Ginobili have all kept their salaries down to help keep that team together under the salary cap. That’s how the Spurs have been able to be so successful. If they had to pay market value for Duncan and Parker all these years, they probably would not have been able to keep that team together. Once Ginobili retires, they will probably use his salary space to sign Kawhi Leonard to a big deal and let the cycle repeat itself. It’s not like the Spurs beat the Heat with also ran type players. Parker is an all star. Duncan is one of the best 10-15 players EVER. Ginobili is a top 75 player in the NBA. Leonard is one of the best 35 players in the league. They beat Miami because they had a lot of great players, too.
So now Cleveland looks around. They know Love is getting traded and most likely, if he gets dealt, he’s either coming to Cleveland or he’s going to Chicago. If he goes to Chicago, that’s probably strengthening your biggest rival. More than anything, Cleveland has to be in on this to be sure that Chicago, a team that has been decent without Derrick Rose, doesn’t all of a sudden put some distance between themselves and the rest of the East.
There are only a handful of teams each year with a legitimate shot at a title. Right now those teams are San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Cleveland, and Chicago. Depending on what happens with the Donald Sterling situation, you may be able to add the Clippers to that list. Beyond that, I can’t really point to anybody. But the thing is, if you’re on that list, you have to do what you can to finish it off.
That was Miami’s mistake last season. They let a valuable guy like Mike Miller go when they were basically right on the brink of a title. They were on the list and took a step back. Remember, the Spurs were one loose ball and a Ray Allen three from beating Miami last year. Miami helped them close the gap and, while they weren’t looking, the Spurs zoomed right past. Cleveland saw that. Everybody in the NBA saw it. Lots of NBA people talked all season about how not having Miller would hurt Miami in the playoffs. Cleveland knows what happened. They have a shot at a title - maybe multiple titles. They can either finish it off, or they can be the Buffalo Bills of the early 90’s.
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@justanotherfan Very well put. While I am a Wiggins fan, think he is going to be a very good (if not great) player, and really my only interest in the whole situation is wanting him to land in the best situation, I simply can’t understand the logic of not trying to win a championship because of something uncertain in the future.
At the end of the day, it’s about playing the odds. Are the odds ever going to be more in Cleveland’s favor than right now? They have the best player in the league with a few years of his prime still left. They have an all-star point guard. They have veterans taking less money to come play with him and try and help win a championship. The east is weak and vulnerable. And they have a chance to add one of the top 10-15 players in the league to that mix. So now you weigh those odds against the odds that not only will Wiggins progress to become a future star, but also that by keeping him you end up with a better team in the future than you have now, and that the east is as ripe for the taking as it is right now. Sure, sometimes the long-shot pays off. But clearly the odds of winning a championship favor the first scenario.
I’ll listen to and even make the argument that keeping Wiggins might make the Cavs a better team now, but to keep Wiggins because he might make give them a better chance in the future, well to me that’s just not very logical.
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@justanotherfan these are very valid points. However just because Cleveland trades for Love, it doesn’t grantee multiple champions, one champion or that they will even make it to the championship game. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think a team shouldn’t explore trades and FA’s to better or increase their chance of winning a championship. I get this, believe me I really do.
This was never my argument. My argument is how do you trade a player with the potential of Wiggs without seeing what the Kid can do? This concept that proven is always better than potential is a weak stance and is hollow. As in every trade, fee agent signing, or drafted player there is risk.
I understand I walk a different path, talk a different game, and have different thoughts about Love for Wiggs, proven versus potential, building for the future versus going for it all now than most. It’s ok I’m cool with it.
However let me ask you a question or anybody that would like to respond? Years from now and your looking back will you remember that team that sold out their future to win that lone championship, or will you remember that team that protected their future and wins multiple championships? The Spurs may have traded and picked up players along the way but they protected their future, their potential. They never sold out their future. That is why they are the best run franchise in the NBA.
This is the best way I can put it. I get trading Love for Wiggs. However nobody and I mean nobody can convince me trading Wiggs for Love. Well not until you at least see what the kid can do with the parts you already have. I mean a player of Wiggs athletic ability only comes around so often. Wouldn’t you want to see what you have before trading the kid?
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I think the Spurs are a great example of this, but I think to make the comparison work, we have to look at the Spurs prior to acquiring Tim Duncan.
In 1987 the Spurs drafted David Robinson #1 overall. He didn’t start playing with them immediately due to military service, but when he did he quickly became a top player in the NBA and led the Spurs to the playoffs just about every season. However, the Spurs never advanced further than the Western Conference Finals during that time. They never really got themselves into that group of championship contenders. They were good every year, but they never crossed from good to great.
It wasn’t until they were able to pair Robinson and Duncan together for a couple of years that they broke through and won their first title. Of course, after that they were stifled by the Lakers for a few years, but then they won another title with Duncan and Robinson. But the only reason they were able to win that 2003 title was because they went out and got Stephen Jackson (pre-Palace brawl) and a couple of other pieces (including a very young Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili) to help out. Without Jackson, Ginobili and Parker they don’t win that 2003 title. They probably end up returning to the level that San Antonio was at through the early and mid nineties, as a solid but not championship level team.
If you have a chance to get better parts, you do it because the window could slam shut at any moment. What if Derrick Rose comes back at an MVP level playing with Joakim Noah, Kevin Love and others? What if Kevin Durant, Serge Ibaka and Russell Westbrook explode out west and turn into a dynasty? You can’t assume that everything will remain static. It won’t. So either you move forward or your opponents pass you.
I’d love to see what Wiggins, Lebron and Irving could do. It could make for some really fun 3 on 2 fast breaks. But I think Cleveland can get a better basketball situation if they have Love, Lebron and Irving.
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Once a player is drafted the team retains the right for quite some time. If he goes to play overseas, the Cavs would retain his right for one year AFTER he is done playing there; so going overseas does not help him unless he wants to sit a year after playing overseas. This how many teams draft European players that they know will not be available for several years and basically “park” them there.
Here is an article that does a good and balanced job describing Wiggins potential and the “build vs buy”, “right vs wrong”, “San Antonio vs Miami” approach to forming a championship caliber team.
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However let me ask you a question or anybody that would like to respond? Years from now and your looking back will you remember that team that sold out their future to win that lone championship, or will you remember that team that protected their future and wins multiple championships?
@DoubleDD The flaw in that assumption is that by keeping Wiggins and “protecting their future” they win multiple championships. Obviously everyone will always remember a team on a multiple championship run versus a team that wins a lone championship. But what if the Cavs keep Wiggins, Love goes to the Bulls, the Cavs come away with zero championships, and the Bulls are the team to win multiple championships? Still think the future was worth protecting then?
As I said, it’s about odds. You weigh the odds of scenario A versus scenario B. I think where most people are disagreeing with you is your optimism regarding the odds of Wiggins leading the team to championships. It’s certainly possible, but I think it’s definitely the longer shot.
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@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for clearing up the overseas situation for me. After you brought it up, I do remember reading several things about teams “stashing” Euro players overseas while retaining their rights, either to help them develop or to assist in keeping them under the cap.
And thanks for the link. I don’t want to come off as someone who thinks that this is a no-brainer trade. Aside from my personal feelings of not wanting to see Wiggins banished to Minnesota, there’s a lot to not like about this trade. Having to give up Bennett, a #1 pick, and probably more players just to make the money work will gut the roster and any roster flexibility the Cavs may have had quickly evaporates. This is to say nothing that I’m not 100% convinced that the Cavs would be appreciably better with Love than they would be with Wiggins & Co.
It’s all about risk/reward. And it’s all uncertain. It’s for everyone to individually decide what those risks are, how likely they are, and if they’re worth the reward.
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@icthawkfan316 - You say my assumption of keeping Wiggins is flawed. Yet in the same breath you and everyone assumes if the Cavs make this trade they are a championship team. Every move you make to acquire a player or players is a gamble or risk. Love guarantee’s nothing but that he can spread the court and play no defense.
I could just at easily say that the Wolves trade Love to the Bulls and they win nothing, and the Cavs keep Wiggins on go to win the next 3 championships. You can’t just have it one way. You may feel my thinking is flawed but there is no guarantee that any team wins a championship with Love or Wiggs for that matter. These are all gambles.
However the Cavs drafted Wiggs and have him under contract. What’s the bigger gamble to keep him or trade him? That’s the question. I know I’m reaching on Wiggs being a great one, however I don’t see how you trade the kid before you see what you have. That’s just me. I mean if the logical choice is always the proven player then why even draft at all?
