LAWSON BAR BILL
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@HighEliteMajor That is a great topic. Well, Aaron Miles is gone now. He would seem to have had the closest ability to relate to young players, except he might not be “bad” enough. Jerrance Howard is a good age for it, and managed (apparently) to get back into good standing despite his own trouble. I have heard good things about Fred Q. On the team itself, Graham and Svi have the seniority, along with Young, but I dunno if any of them have the necessary gravitas or personality to act in the one-arm-around-the-shoulder-while-the-other-pops-a-hidden-fist-in-the-kidneys approach that seems necessary.
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At the end of the day Dedric is really really good at basketball (best player on the team good) so he’s going to get a lot of chances to straighten out. More than most people would get, it’s just how it is. I’m sure some would say it’s unfair.
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Let’s remember that in this situation, Dedric doesn’t appear to have done anything wrong. The story initially came out, but the facts as they currently stand suggest he didn’t do anything inappropriate.
Now, the practice incident is a problem.
He handled the situation with Tubby Smith very poorly and let his frustration turn into outright disrespect.
The incident during the pickup game is a problem.
Dedric seems to be a fiery guy that needs to understand how to rein those emotions in. In each situation, it looks like his emotions boiled over and he acted rashly as a result. I hope he understands that he has to carry himself with more personal responsibility and accountability. He has a whole year to work on it out of the public eye for the most part. I hope that he does learn how to, not just for basketball reasons, but learning to control his emotions will help him succeed in his personal life as well.
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mayjay said:
We just need to make sure our guys stop being in bars where there are former girlfriends.
Better yet, just stop being in bars.
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Self has to be wondering if he should just cut his losses now.
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This situation can actually be a good learning and teaching tool.
For a lot of these guys, they still are not quite used to being in the spotlight and the attention that brings. For most any other student, this situation is a nothing situation because the accusation probably never even happens. This is an opportunity to sit everyone down and let them know that even when they are relaxing and minding their own business, because they play basketball at one of the biggest programs in the country, the spotlight is always on, and they have to act accordingly.
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I didn’t mean to be so pessimistic. It’s great to help anyone become a productive person. But a career-weary part Self has to ask: Where is Brannen Greene these days? He had many teaching experiences?
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jaybate 1.0 said:
I didn’t mean to be so pessimistic. It’s great to help anyone become a productive person. But a career-weary part Self has to ask: Where is Brannen Greene these days? He had many teaching experiences?
He was drafted in the G-League. Couldn’t find any other info. It’s as if he didn’t play
Edit.
https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Brannen-Greene/Summary/33247
Looks like he played in 24 games shooting 40% from 3 overall
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Admittedly, I seem to have trouble leaving alone this Cedric thing. There has just been too much Lawson bros. smoke since April. Blockhead behavior. Perhaps it is just a shoe brand problem which dogs our recruiting staff? The success of this grand transfer plan is yet very much an unsettled matter for debate. I recognize that Tubby Smith is caught up in the downhill slide of his coaching career; but I can envision his chuckling at out headaches with his transfer brothers. After all, at stake is the status of heralded Jayhawk Basketball.
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Tubby would take the Lawsons back in one New York minute, no questions asked. Tubby is a very average coach, at Kentucky he lucked out into a National Title with Pitino’s players and once they were gone it went downhill. Since he left UK, he has coached 10 years at 3 different schools and conferences and he has yet to have one winning conference record; his best finish is 5th in the AAC. Like I said, a very average coach who would not mind getting the Lawsons back, issues and all. Keep in mind that the Lawsons were not the only players to leave Memphis, several did. Just my opinion.
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Tubby Smith is an ok coach, but he can’t recruit. Similar to Weber.
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@JayHawkFanToo Well, I can’t really speak for Tubby. He might not be laughing. But as for the team he inherited from Pitino at Kentucky, he did take them further than the really fine kids which Self inherited from Roy Williams. Shucks, Tubby might even have handled freshman Russel Robinson in a more productive manner.
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dylans said:
Tubby Smith is an ok coach, but he can’t recruit. Similar to Weber.
He is old and crusty and just dgaf enough to get down in the muck to recruit the highest level of players anymore.
As for Greene, Dedric is a far better basketball player. Also Greene got three years worth of chances. I’ve heard Dedric is the best player on the roster, he’s going to get every chance in the world from Self.
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This was KU’s team on Coach Self 1st season:
It was a very good team but do you really think this was a championship caliber team? Once you get past Langford, Simien, Miles and maybe Graves, the rest of the team consisted of role players and inexperience freshmen. Coach Self led the team to a 2nd place finish in the conference and advanced to the Elite 8. He has won the conference every year since that first team.
Do you really think Coach Self and Tubby are on the same level? I do not. Coach Self improved every program he led and his record speaks for itself; can’t say the same thing about Tubby. Both coached at Tulsa and they both coached in the Big 10 and Big 12; compare the records and it is not even close. Smith does not have a single season with a conference winning record in the last 10 years while Coach Self has won how many Big 12 Titles?
A large number of players have transferred out of Memphis in the last couple of years (under both Pastner-6 and Smith-4) and not necessarily because of playing time. Memphis has 2 returning scholarship players and it is taking Junior college transfers…I have no doubt he would take the Lawson brothers, and not just Memphis, just about every program would. Just my 2 cents.
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@JayHawkFanToo And even then, Langford and Miles were not really NBA guys. Tubby had 3 NBA guys, 2 who had 7+ year NBA careers and then Nazr Mohammed who was in the league until LAST YEAR. Then a couple other guys on that team with solid euro careers. Much stronger roster, not really comparable.
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@JayHawkFanToo My mistake regarding Russ Rob. l thought he was on that team Self’s first year. And you are right, most probably, in asserting that the good juniors on that team were not quite at the level of the squad which Tubby inherited from Pitino. And, of course I am not saying that Tubby Smith is anywhere near the level of Bill Self as a coach. You are pushing the envelope of good communication in suggesting so. Also, Self inherited a big problem or two with that first crew: Padget and Giddins, both Roy’s recruits, one who departed Lawrence after that year, the other who lingered long enough to drag the program into national negative focus. In retrospect, Tubby lucked out and got his national title right off the bat. And yeah, he has not competed well since. Bill has built a magnificent foundation, posted spectacular league notoriety, still struggles come April. His legacy far outshines the likes of Tubby Smith…or most any other but very few coaches in the history of the college game. I am in no way knocking Bill Self. In my opinion, his learning curve has always been on the ascent.
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No problem. Padgett was a solid player who thought he was better than he actually was. He was productive at KU and at Louisville but not good enough for the next level.
Giddens is a different story. Very talented player whose big mistake cost him his place at KU. If you read Beyond the Phog and hear his side if the story, it gives you a different perspective an I will just leave it at that. He did very well at New Mexico after sitting one year and he was MWC Player of the Year in his senior year and drafted by the Celtics in the first round. After the first contract, he gas played overseas.
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@JayHawkFanToo As I recall, and admittedly I am at the age when memory has begun to fade, Padget’s dad was not happy with the manner in which Bill was playing David. He had been recruited to play Roy’s game which was very different from the Bill Self strategy. And, yeah, I read Giddin’s account of his “situation.” I tend to go with Billy Packer’s declaration that essentially KU was playing the game with 4 players when Giddins was in the lineup. The kid was highly talented but not a comfortable fit into what Self was still learning to do. Then the bar scene and fracas, a matter which always gives coaches major cause for hair pulling. Bill might not have that much remaining hair to yank. Ergo, all current Jayhawks should be advised to think rationally and very carefully in offcourt decisions and spontaneous actions. Oncourt, too.
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@JayHawkFanToo You have caused mme to order a copy of Beyond the Phog after years of putting it off. I read one review that says it is a good reminder of what a pathological liar Giddens is. I look forward to reading it since you obviously had a different reaction when you read it.
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Really good reading with a lot of inside information but no real bomb shells. I am curious to see what your take is.
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@mayjay Man, you gotta read that book. Esp., I recommend the Sherron Collins commentary, Chapter 33. He calls B. Rush “the goofiest guy I ever met!” O Boy! This book is a must read for all fans of Bill Self KU Hoops. You are guaranteed to do lots of laughing, also to connect with deeper insights into Jayhawk Basketball even before Self’s arrival. In Chapter One, Roy speaks.
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Also, in BEYOND THE PHOG, sports writer Jason King did not pull punches in the matter of player feelings toward their now heralded mentor. A few of Self’s minions are a bit reserved or sometimes lightly critical of their coach. That said, there exists no doubt in who was/is boss. I would say that, even though Self has developed amazingly effective change-ups over his coaching years in Lawrence, his recruits soon learn emphatically that IT’s GOING TO BE MY WAY…or the highway! Ocasionally, perhaps in cases such as the Henrys or Wiggins, Bill has bent more than customarily to family input; but those probably were very rare compromises, and then only for the acquisition of very rare talents who obviously weren’t bound to be 3 or 4-year mainstays in his program. He is capable of a tiny bit of GIVE, but only in a temporary sense, something which won’t disturb his longterm sleep patterns.
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My copy is autographed by Jason King and one skinny kid named Tyshawn Taylor.
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@JayHawkFanToo I hope that King writes an updated version, and includes the likes of Frank Mason. I would drive 300 miles to pay that kid to autograph a chapter.
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We all would. He was in Overland Park signing merchandise right after the tournament but I had a meeting I could not reschedule.
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@HighEliteMajor Would be cool if Tarik already reached out to Lawsons somehow, reminding them of the big picture in a friendly way.
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@jaybate-1.0 Self may like fiery players on the team. Marcus/Markieff were lightning rods. As was Josh Jackson. Fire breathers. Perry Ellis was not, just using Perry’s personality as example
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@JayHawkFanToo perfectly said, no comparison between Self and Tubby
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@JayHawkFanToo Ya, the Beyond the Phog section on Giddens is the most chilling piece in that whole book. I think it was written only 3-4 yrs ago, and even then, in direct response to Gidden’s story, Self’s response, in italics , in 2014?, was: that is an outright lie…astonishing. Makes me want to ask Self: what did J.R. exactly do? At least we know who shot (down) J.R…it was that Cowboy, Bill Self. Fellow Okie even…man!
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@JayHawkFanToo He was/is a skinny dude. Someone called him a whippet once
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He didn’t look that skinny on tv but in person he was surprisingly thin.
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@JayHawkFanToo @JayhawkerRedLegs there’s an old ballad that is perfect here. I heard an unknown band sing this variation of it a long time ago:
I once knew a man, a skinny man, a skinny man from Hoboken. And if I told you how skinny he was, you’d think that I was jokin’.
