Red Pill or Blue Pill?
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@HighEliteMajor I think your pills are describing the extreme situations. In my opinion reality is somewhere in between.
Bill Self is a great coach and I’d not trade him for any other coach. His system as some call “Self Ball” works very well. However, it is a complex system and requires experience for good execution.
We are seeing College BB landscape changing at top programs where highly talented players are coming in but they are going to NBA at a much faster pace. As such it is difficult to get the continuity and experience that is an essential element of Self Ball. With that in mind I believe Self needs to adapt too. He needs to be more flexible. He needs to tweak his system a bit.
Furthermore, he needs to get his mojo back and become a better game day coach. I am not saying that he is not good. But it seems that he is getting outcoached more often now. Other coaches are exposing his weaknesses. They are eating his lunch more often.
I will give two examples. First one is the Big 12 Tourney semi finals against ISU. In the 1st half ISU was not doubling up on our post players allowing Ellis to score freely. In the 2nd half ISU changed the game plan and started effective double/trip teaming our post players. They pretty much took Ellis out of the game. But Self did not make any change to the plan despite seeing his guys struggle against ISUs double/triple teams.
The 2nd example is the Stanford game. While Black was the only Big doing any scoring it was clear that scoring inside against the Stanford Bigs will be tough but we kept going inside and kept on missing the shots. It was very frustrating. In addition, Stanford was playing without a pure PG. Self should have recognized the weakness and put this in his game plan for more pressing. But he waited till about 10 mins left in the game to start pressing. By that time it was too late.
In summary, Bill Self is a really good coach but he needs to adapt and make necessary tweaks in his system.
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Interesting discussion. HEM’s question reflects the national perception of KU basketball.
What makes the NCAA tournament so fascinating is that it so often does not render the best team in the country as its’ champion. When UConn won in 11 they were 9-9 in their league, they were not the best team in the country. They only had to defeat Butler to win the NC. Do you think Butler was the 2nd best team in the country? I don’t.
In an NBA style playoff, KU wins national championships probably in 1997, 2002, 2003 and maybe several others.
But the tournament is set up for favorable matchups, and by favorable, I mean favorable to teams that will draw the best ratings. UConn doesn’t leave the state of NY this year to get to Dallas. Kentucky, with their ballyhooed 8th seeded team gets to play up the road in St. Louis, and then in Indianapolis. Maybe without a lot of home cooking neither of those teams even makes it out of the regional rounds. Now KU has received some favorable draws too threw the years to be sure, so it’s not a major reason.
So to answer the question, Red and Blue pills combined make purple so I will take purple, a little of both!
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@nuleafjhawk I can appreciate every one of your comments. Thanks!
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@nuleafjhawk love your post! Little problem w/Liberace. I read this pill post on ku sports, loved Tony Bandles aka oakville’s post. Didn’t know if we could copy and paste it here or not??? Wish I had yard work done.
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@wissoxfan83
“So to answer the question, Red and Blue pills combined make purple so I will take purple, a little of both!”
You scare me with that… we definitely don’t like purple in here! hahahe…
I’m watching the game yesterday with my wife and during the first half I told her that the Badgers will be in this game unless they miss at the FT line.
Sure enough… wasn’t it their only miss at the line down the stretch… missing the one that ended up making them one short after Harrison hit his 3?
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@HighEliteMajor We’ve essentially become the Boston Red Sox. We’ve been to the big dance several times, but ultimately left empty-handed. It’s undeniably painful.
I can’t really add anything to what you’ve already said, because you are right on. Self is stubborn. We as KU fans have put such a premium on something that is really just not that important (Big 12 champs). They mean nothing. Absolutely zero. What Calipari has done this year is what he’s done before, and what other coaches have before him. Prepared their team for March. Kentucky has the real deal in Julius Randle. They know that, we know that, everyone knows that. We knew that in the second game of the season against MSU. What Calipari developed over the course of the season, on top of the talent that UK already had, was the same thing that Self didn’t develop, and the reason why we lost in the first weekend.
Watching UK this season was like watching a pick up game. They took foolish shots, played spotty defense, and looked uninterested. But in the end, they only needed to get to the tournament. So many UK players, with the exception of James Young, would take terrible shots, miss them and UK would lose. No big deal though. However, over time those bad shots began to fall, and just in time for March. But UK doesn’t have a monopoly on good shooters. We have a few. But guys like Greene, CF, and AWIII really didn’t get much of a chance to really work on that shot over the course of the season. UK developed theirs and is playing for an NC tomorrow. Self didn’t develop our shooters’ outside shots and again, for the sixth time in the past 10 years, we lost to a team we should have beat. We relied on too much of the “same ol, same ol” with Perry “Finesse” Ellis of all people, and lost. To Stanford. In the round of 32. Undeniably painful.
BUT…
As many have pointed out, the question becomes, does KU look to another option besides Self? I vote no. Although I am beyond pissed off about the disappointments.
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I wish we were the Red Sox, they’ve won all three World Series they’ve been in since 2004! I don’t recall them losing a world series since 86, just ask Bill Buckner about that one!
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@MoonwalkMafia You can’t compare Greene, CF, and AWIII to Kentucky’s talent…it’s not even close. They have as much talent, although young talent, as has been assembled in quite some time.
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@wissoxfan83 Haha, I was going for the pre-2004 definition of the Red Sox.
@Hawk8086 you are right about that. But in terms of shooting the ball, I don’t think so. And honestly, while that comparison may even be somewhat true, the fact is we became so one-dimensional that when we needed to utilize a different aspect of the game we were unable to. And how you analyze that takes on different angles as well. Did we even have the ability to do what it takes to win it all? Or was it simply out of our reach no matter how the cards fell?
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Thanks for the discussion … I read all the posts.
@wissoxfan83 said - “HEM’s question reflects the national perception of KU basketball.”
Precisely.
My point is to challenge our thought process, as we live largely in our little KU cocoons. I know everyone here is coming from a different perspective. My perspective is just one. But nationally, as noted above, we are tied for 7th in national titles the last 20 seasons. Folks see us as a great program, but one that has trouble winning the big one. It is what it is. The Red Sox analogy is a good one.
I kind of think the Atlanta Braves is better. Yea, they won one, but with Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz, they should have won three or four.
So whether you’re the red pill, blue pill, a little of both, or you think the entire discussion is stupid, is there a cure for what ails us in March?
I am very interested in what the group here thinks. I’m going to post my thoughts this week. Not in a “Self has failed” tone, but in a tone that is matter of fact. As basketball fans who live and die KU hoops, what do we thing marginally, and at the core, could help change our fate in March.
I do believe that there is an answer, or groups of answers. Think to yourself, if there was one thing you would change, what would it be?
Perhaps many will just think – keep choppin’ wood. It’s a matter of time.
But I sense there will be more. @AsadZ touched on a few things above.
@konkeyDong asked, “do you want to see Self fired?”
That is the ultimate question, isn’t it. It would be a bold move, wouldn’t it? Crazy. Asinine. Beyond reason. Who fires Bill Self?
It just depends on the analysis.
Let me ask this – assume that your analysis concluded that coach Self, through system, scheme, or otherwise was holding back KU from achieving titles – would you fire Self?
One thing is for damn certain. KU basketball survived before coach Self, and it will survive after coach Self. Coach Self is not KU basketball. We’re not some shy high school girl afraid to dump her boyfriend because no one will love her like he does. We are KU basketball.
Everything needs to be on the table.
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is there a cure for what ails us in March?
@HighEliteMajor I started a thread entitled “Biggest Change Needed” about a week ago wanting to know fans’ thoughts on exactly this issue. I went back & forth quite a bit with konkeyDong on the issue of flexibility. Others suggested that the major problem was related to the 3-point shot, developing shooters, allowing them the freedom to take the shot at any point during the possession (early in the shot clock. Some focused on the PG position. And I believe there was a smattering of conversation about OADs.
My personal belief is that being flexible with both general philosophy as well as in-game management would lead us to at least a partial answer.
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@icthawkfan316 would you consider a change at head coach? What if you learned coach Self would simply not adjust his philosophy, would refuse to be flexible – as the evidence thus far suggests?
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@HighEliteMajor I considered this, and my gut reaction is no. Mainly because I don’t see anyone out there right now that we could get that I would consider better. Sure, we might find someone more flexible. Rick Barnes or Bruce Webber might be more flexible, but they are not close to the complete package that Self is. Self has what I consider to be an excellent core philosophy. He is an excellent recruiter. He is charismatic. He is a great ambassador for the program. And even if he is unwilling to be flexible, we have evidence that he doesn’t always need to be. We can win it all with him not adjusting. Maybe not as often as we’d like, but we know it’s attainable.
The other thing that I have a problem with people asking to replace Self because he is not meeting our standards or expectations of success is that Self has as many national championships as any other coach in the university’s history. When people say “this is Kansas” as if to say we should expect more, I wonder why. What success have we experienced in the past that would lead us to feel entitled to more than Self has given us? This is perhaps a harsh reality to face, but perhaps we should feel fortunate to be included in discussions with other blue blood programs.
Back to my original point, who would we look to if Self wouldn’t change? Are we willing to take a risk on a lesser name or someone who is more unproven? The example here that comes to mind is Kentucky getting rid of Tubby Smith, and striking out with Billy Gillispie. Sure they got Cal with their second swing and are surely happy with the success he has brought the program, but there were no guarantees when they fired Tubby that if Gillispie didn’t work out that someone of Cal’s caliber would be out there and available. Look at UCLA. When (if ever) are they going to land an elite coach that elevates their program to what we would consider blue blood status? Ben Howland was supposed to be that guy, and he took them to some Final 4s, but was eventually replaced for not winning championships and letting the program fall off towards the end of his tenure. Now they’re trying Steve Alford. Does a Steve Alford/Billy Gillispie type hire fill you with confidence?
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@konkeyDong asked, “do you want to see Self fired?”
That is the ultimate question, isn’t it. It would be a bold move, wouldn’t it? Crazy. Asinine. Beyond reason. Who fires Bill Self?
It just depends on the analysis.
Let me ask this – assume that your analysis concluded that coach Self, through system, scheme, or otherwise was holding back KU from achieving titles – would you fire Self?
One thing is for damn certain. KU basketball survived before coach Self, and it will survive after coach Self. Coach Self is not KU basketball. We’re not some shy high school girl afraid to dump her boyfriend because no one will love her like he does. We are KU basketball.
Everything needs to be on the table.
@HighEliteMajor With all due respect, that’s a total dodge. If Self is the man you believe him to be, the man you described, then I say fire him today and don’t look back. If you can make that post and can’t say the same thing without the slightest hesitation, then you lack the courage of your conviction. As for the question of do I see Self as the man who’s holding us back from March succes, it’s a resounding no. No. of titles won in the last 11 years under Self: 1. No. of titles won under Williams in 15 years? 0. Larry Brown? 1, but it took him 5 years, just like Self, then he bolted for the NBA leaving violations in his wake (and an unproven replacement who would go 15 years without winning a title). So even if KU isn’t the greatness we all want it to be, at worst, Self is allowing us to tread water, and at best (and what is my humble opinion) he’s setting us up for it. Does Self have flaws? Certainly. Does he make in game mistakes? Sure. Has he been upset by teams that have no business being on the same court as us. Undeniably. But the fact of the matter is, the same thing can be said for every other coach of any significant longevity at every other program, including those coaches that have won multiple titles.
As for the issue of Stanford itself, can I ask you to swallow a red pill too? Will you recognize that you’d have to be blind to think that that result was an upset by any measure other than seeding? Can you recognize that without Joel Embiid on the floor, we weren’t a team that should have beaten Stanford. Can you see that we were a team that was lucky not to lose to EKU? I mean, for the love of God, we got smoked by WVU, burning every TO we had with 17 minutes left in the game and the only thing that kept it from being a complete and utter domination was a fluky (but fun to watch) 41 pt performance by Wigs. If we’re asked to embrace the facts, then let’s embrace them for what they are. KU was a flawed team this season that managed to coalesce around Joel Embiid’s amazing talents. Once he was gone, we were exposed for being a team with no dribblers, no shooters, and no hope in March. I am not at all upset with our performance against Stanford (beyond the fact that we lost), because I haven’t deluded myself into believing that without Embiid we were any better than the team that got spanked by WVU, and I recognized on Selection Sunday that we were in a bracket loaded with bad match ups for us. Yes, we relied on a finesse post player. Yes, we relied on going inside. Yes we struggled. Yes we lost, but we lost doing the only thing that gave us any prayer of winning. The only thing I would like to have seen done differently is for Frankamp to have played all of Tharpes minutes (and Mason to get the balance).
Finally, what exactly do you want to see change? And don’t tell me that Self needs to be ‘more open minded’ or ‘more flexible’. Those are platitudes, not answers. They are the stock and trade of gurus, psychics, and self help columnists who refuse to offer real solutions in order to escape accountability for the results. If you have specific suggestions, suggest them. Have them debated. It’s easy to offer vague proposals because they only have strengths and no weaknesses. It’s the reason an unnamed Republican beats Obama in 2012, but Mitt Romney fails. So what do you want to actually happen on the court. What are you seeing that needs to be changed and why is it better than what’s happening today. You know my case. My case is that guys delivering you 30 win seasons will, sooner or later, deliver you the number of titles you’d think would be commensurate with that win rate. So what’s the secret of losing 10 games and still playing for a title or going 9-9 in conference and cutting down the nets? The ball is in your court, HEM.
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Man I love this board! I took a few days off but enjoyed reading this thread in one sitting.
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I was devastated when HCRW left…but then got really excited when HCBS was rumored to be coming…I read everything I could find on him and distinctly remember the Chicago writers loving him.
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I don’t want him to leave for at least 5-10 years or 2 more national titles whichever comes first.
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I would like him to keep evolving as a coach. Resisting change is a recipe for mediocrity.
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He needs to implement more zone like @HighEliteMajor keeps harping on justifiably so. Maybe play it 20% of the time but it needs to be on the table.
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Mix in more full court, 3/4 court and half court presses like @jaybate has suggested.
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Point guard…argh what hasn’t been said on this?
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PT aka playing time. This has always been a head scratcher for me. Historically he’s always had a short leash with freshman (Russ Rob n Naa being two good examples). And he gives upper class men longer leashes (Naa, again & EJ). I wish he would have played CF and Brannen a lot more and taken away minutes from Selden and especially Naa. AWIII is a mystery.
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Conference titles matter. I loved the analogy above that if we played nba series we’d have a lot more national titles to go along w our conference titles.
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National titles matter, also. But I don’t think HCBS is somehow not preparing our kids properly for the postseason bc of his lack of multiple titles. Is the new coach at UConn a genius bc of this tournament run? I highly doubt it.
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Losing Beed cannot be understated. That’s why I’m in favor of him returning! If so, is there any reason we shouldn’t go 35-5 and win the title next year?
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@HighEliteMajor Although you didn’t specifically state, I assume from the tone of your post that you’re a red pill kinda guy. All I can say is Welcome aboard! C’mon in–the water’s fine. I’ve been carping about these points since 05 (when Bill’s Okie hokie-pokie offense ruined a preseason #1 team) and on chat boards since I joined in '10–how does this offense “get a bucket” when it needs one?
If we extend your scenario 5 more years and define it as the time period of Kansas’ NCAA tournament appearance streak, you get Duke with 4 championships, North Carolina-3, UConn-3, Kentucky-3 and Florida-2. We’re not even in that conversation. Is there anyone here who wouldn’t trade our streak for 2 or 3 more championships? Or even 1?
Of course, we can take solace in winning our Cake Conference Shampionship every year. You know, our regular season over-rated conference that hasn’t managed to put ONE team besides Kansas in the Final Four in the last ten years? There’s a power conference for you.
After the double debacles of 05 & 06, I came to the conclusion (perhaps hastily) that this coach was not ready for prime time. After 07 & 08, I decided that the coach had grown and achieved prime time performer status. But after two more debacles in 10 & 11, 08 began to look more and more like an anomaly, and Bill’s 08 pre game speech, where he THANKED the players for bringing him along on the ride, took on new layers of meaning.
After another run at the title in 12 (aided by stud players that hardly any other team could match) I was ready to give Bill another pass. But once (or twice) again, he did not disappoint(?) in my original judgement of “not ready for prime time” – losing to Michigan in probably the biggest choke job in NCAA history, and to then to a western Ivy League team.
To those who argue that other top teams get upset, show me another top rated team laden with NBA talent that gets upset in the tourney on a regular (more than every other year) basis by teams with NO NBA talent–or as one hilarious poster (whose handle I can’t remember) posted after UNI, a team full of future insurance salesmen. That’s the definition of getting out-coached.
Add to that a coach who simply refuses to review tournament losses ( I still can’t comprehend that) and it begins to boil down to simple stubbornness. With that attitude, the game will simply pass you by. I read (in my ‘out of the Kansas bubble’ local paper) a profile of Billy Donovan, detailing how he agonized over tournament losses, watching them over and over, trying find what he did wrong, what he could have done differently, until his dad had to urge him to ‘let it go Bill, let it go.’ If only our Bill ‘Self-scrutinized’ a little more… But he’s probably too busy thinking about his motorcycle and disco outfit for next October’s Late Night.
It’s not heresy to think of life after Bill. I"m not a Bill fan, I’m a Kansas fan. I was disappointed when they fired Ted, thinking “Who will they get?” And then came Larry, the greatest basketball coach ever. And then came Roy, and so on. Kansas Basketball goes on, no matter who is at the helm. It’s Kansas that makes the coaches great, not the other way around.
I’ll ask this question one more time. I haven’t gotten a response yet. Is there anyone here who thinks Bill Self is doing a good job of preparing his team for tournament games?
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HEM, you have really opened the floodgates with your brilliant red pill/ blue pill debate! Hell, I came onto this thread as an 11-year-long right hand hitter. Now I am at least considering stepping up to the plate from the other side. Thanks for setting the kettle to boiling.
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If @HEM were a fan of either uCon or kentucky his head would have exploded from frustration last season when uCon was banned from post season play or when tucky was losing to Bob Morris. Or he’d have been put on a 96 hour hold at the local mental hospital. “Those coaches should have been fired last year!!!”
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@HighEliteMajor As a constant reader (sometimes poster) on this site I know that HEM is most of the time the professor and we are all the students. His insight is pretty much unmatched and I truly enjoy reading his posts…along with so many others on this site that know endless amounts about KU and college b ball.
That said, I have to disagree with the statement that KU is not a top 5 program. I actually do agree that National Titles are a huge part of the equation and that UCONN and UK should be included in the top 5 list of the last 10-20 years but to think that KU is not a top team seems like bitterness over the fact that our incredibly talented team underachieved…again.
Who exactly is top 5? I know this is a pretty gray area…or a very gray area. If you asked a Syracuse fan, do you think they would say they are a top 5 program? I bet they would think so. They have a national title (same as KU) in the last twenty years. They have other Final 4’s as well and win 25-30 games a year under the coach with the 2nd most wins in NCAA history.
Is UNC? Is Duke? UNC has lost early the last two years in March and spent part of both of the last seasons unranked. Are they a top 5 program? Sure, they have 2 titles in the last 20 years (one more than KU) but does their appearance a few years ago in the NIT go against them? Does the fact that Duke has lost to a 15 and a 14 seed in 2 of the last 3 years kick them off of a top 5 program list? That seems like underachieving in my book. Personally I would still consider both programs elite and probably top 5.
Is Florida a top 5 program? I don’t really think so but that is probably biased as I have always thought of them as a football school who had one of the greatest b ball recruiting classes ever and road that to 2 titles. Are their recent Elite 8 runs and this years Final 4 enough to say they are a superior program to KU? Again, I don’t think so but who knows…they do have more national titles than KU…
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@Kip_McSmithers My comments last year about Kentucky were the same as they were after UNC won the title in 2009 and went to the NIT – I’ll take that trade. National title one season, NIT the next. Or UConn winning the title in 2011 and missing the tournament because of … (really) … academics. I’d take that. I think we were all fine with the title in 1988 and missing the tourney the next season … I was still shining the ring.
If you didn’t read all of @konkeyDong last paragraph above, please do so. Not so sure I agree with the Republican vs. Obama comparison, but we avoid political debates like the plague. But the challenge is an excellent one. Essentially put up or shut up. Give me a couple of days.
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@REHawk Soooo, did you take the red pill?
@KULA - I think you’re the one that gave me the red pill.
@icthawkfan316 - Before anyone would think of a change, you’d have to have the replacement. That makes it difficult.
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@nuleafjhawk did you take the blue pill? “There’s nothing magical about U-Conn or Kentucky”, you say – how about 6 of the last 18 national titles between them? If there is a word called “magical”, what do you reserve it’s use for – aside from Disney World, of course?
And I appreciate @Hawk8086 's candor. He took the blue pill without hesitation. “We are still a top 5 program.”
@drgnslayr - “I think Self may be the best conference coach of all times.” Yes, he is. No doubt. And I like the UConn model as you suggest … looking at why they succeeded to the ultimate prize so many times with diverse groups of players.
I still say we gave them the 2011 trophy – Self wins the 2011 trophy and this discussion isn’t happening, right? Or 2010. Or 2012. Or 2013. Or playing tonight. Lots of “ors”.
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Just a friendly healthcare reminder: If you do take the blue pill, and your rationalization lasts more than 4 hours, please notify me or your nearest healthcare provider.
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@HighEliteMajor Nothing magical about getting beat by Bob Morriss in the NIT either.
Stuff happens. Like I said before, injury, luck (good or bad) whatever.
If you want to bathe in the majesty of Uconn or Kentucky, go right ahead.
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@HighEliteMajor Yes I’d have to have the replacement. It would be different if we weren’t at least “treading water”. If we were not recruiting as we should be able to. If we were not making the tournament regularly. If we had a “lack of institutional control”. Basically, if things were going bad like they did for Howland at UCLA. But we have none of that. Our only gripe is our desire to have a higher rate of success in the NCAA tournament. The question is a little ridiculous given that we are two years removed from the national title game. But I would at least entertain the idea if someone could present a case for another candidate with a low risk-high reward profile, because as much as I think Self is a great coach, if someone can do better I would say make the change.
I still come back to the problem I have with our fans thinking we are entitled to more. “We are Kansas basketball”. Or, as @KULA said “It’s Kansas that makes the coaches great, not the other way around.” We have 3 National titles, and one of them was won by Bill Self in his 11 year tenure. The NCAA tournament began in 1939. That’s 75 years of tournaments, and we’ve won 3 of them. That’s a clip of one every 25 years for our program. That’s how great Kansas has made its coaches for the past 75 years. What level of success does anyone think we had prior to Bill Self that they think he hasn’t delivered on since his arrival?
Is it wrong to want more? To want the program elevated? To enviously look at UConn and say “why isn’t that us?” Not at all. I certainly do. But don’t delude yourselves with “we are Kansas.” When anyone wants to evaluate our program and talks about taking off the crimson & blue colored glasses, I would advise them to do the same and start with this basic fact: Kansas is a great program with wonderful tradition. But that tradition doesn’t really include that which we are so hungry for - increased tournament success. If you want us to build upon that and have greater success, fine. Me too! But please stop acting as if we’ve “fallen off”.
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I’m probably a blue pill guy anyway. After all, I have said more than once on this board that around the country, most teams don’t remember who wins the conference, other than the conference their favorite team is in. For example, most of us won’t remember who won the ACC this year once next season gets going. Most probably don’t remember who won the Big 10 last year, or who won the Pac-12 the year before. Conference titles are nice, but they don’t really resonate nationally because the grind of the conference schedule is regionally focused.
So here’s the real question - is it effective in this state of college basketball to coach an elite major school with a system that takes 2-3 years to master? If, as some have argued, Bill Self’s system is so complex as to take 2-3 years to master, is that really practical knowing that the top talent won’t be in school for more than 2 years most of the time?
For example, even if Wiggins and Embiid returned, is there anyone that believes they would stay past next season? You simply cannot assume that you will have the best players for more than 2 years.
It seems to me that Calipari has understood this better than basically anyone. I think Tom Izzo is a genius, but even he has struggled with the fact that in order to have top notch talent, he can’t expect to have those guys around for four full seasons. Coach K has started to embrace this as well, although the results have not followed yet.
I think the new reality of college basketball is that teams are going to have to adapt year to year based on the talent on hand more so than relying on a system. If you have an Andrew Wiggins one year, you have to capitalize on his unique gifts. If, the next year, you have a different type of player (a Cliff Alexander, for example) you should adapt to take advantage of that. Lacking a true high talent PG? Maybe you let your wing players initiate the offense. The new reality of college basketball is that you can’t just hope your system wins it for you - the talent is very spread out, to where if you don’t maximize the use of the elite guys, you’re no better off than a team with lesser talent.
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I’m not a particularly good loser. In fact, it’s been said that I’m a POOR loser. I take great pride in that.
However, the fact that Kansas doesn’t win the National Championship every year is not enough to make me bail on them.
If we’re going to base greatness on how many NC’s a team has, then it’s UCLA. Hands down. End of discussion. Next, as jaybate 1.0 would say.
Take a random poll of people across the country and ask them to choose the 5 greatest programs of all time. Here’s the answer you’ll get the majority of the time:
In no particular order: Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina and Indiana. Go ahead - take the poll.
Why? Because they have consistently been winners. Over a long, long period of time they have been known as winners. They win a lot of games. They win conference championships. They have history. They make movies about them. They send players to the NBA. Their names are synonymous with winning.
Yes, I want to win more National Championships. In my heart, 10 losses in a season is unacceptable. But, it’s basketball. We attract many top athletes here and when things click, we are unstoppable. They didn’t click this year. Do we send Bill Self packing? (as if we could). Probably not a great idea. He’s won a few games. We could do worse than having Bill Self for our coach.
Take a few minutes and compare stats between Calipari and Self. On paper, they’re the same person. Their records are practically identical. Self has lost one more tournament game than Calipari. They’ve both won one National Championship.
“Somewhere in the world there is a defeat for everyone. Some are destroyed by defeat, and some made small and mean by victory. Greatness lives in one who triumphs equally over defeat and victory.” John Steinbeck
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@nuleafjhawk Now I think you’re taking this personally …
@icthawkfan316 - “But please stop acting as if we’ve ‘fallen off’.”
So, we must ascend then. One title every 25 years being the status quo.
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So here’s the real question - is it effective in this state of college basketball to coach an elite major school with a system that takes 2-3 years to master?
@justanotherfan Well, consider that 3 of the 4 schools that made the Final 4 this year were comprised of non-OAD players. The one exception is Kentucky, who put together perhaps the greatest recruiting class ever, and they’ve needed clutch 3 pointers to win their last 3 games. They very well may win it all, but that type of class isn’t going to be available very often, and certainly not available to more than one school every so often (Duke’s class next year features 5 ESPN top 20 players). Last year’s Final 4 (Louisville, Wichita St., Michigan, Syracuse) did not feature OAD talent. 2012 had a Kentucky team full of OADs win the title, but KU, Ohio St., & Louisville didn’t have OADs on their roster.
So I think the likely answer isn’t to change the system, but rather the players. HEM & others have advocated not going after kids that are presumed OADs. Perhaps that is part of the answer to HEM’s question “is there a cure for what ails us in March?” The alternative that we see is to be able to build Kentucky-esque recruiting classes. That seems to be the only formula that succeeds without having 2-4 year guys, and I wouldn’t think it wise for anyone else to count on being able to do that on a consistent basis.
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@HighEliteMajor Lol - I am!! I just told you I’m a poor loser. And we just lost ten times!!
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I can think of a parallel on the fire Bill Self question.
Doug Collins coached the Bulls to the conference finals in 1989 where they lost to Detroit. Each year he coached the team they got progressively better. This of course coincided with the maturation of Scotty and Michael.
After the conference championship series he was fired. Of course they hired Phil, you know the rest of the story.
As a raised and reared Chicagoan I was shocked. I had only seen the Bulls as a pitiful team, giving away tickets, nothing going good. And now they’re consistently making the playoffs. This is great, and you fire the coach?
Now it may be a weak comparison, but it may not be.
I’m not a believer in firing Bill Self. He’s had us in two championship games in 6 years. But he is going to have his mettle challenged in the changing landscape of college basketball.
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I agree, but here’s the thing - Calipari is a constant. The other teams change from year to year.
Going back to 2006 (the beginning of the OAD era), here are the coaches that have been to the Elite 8, along with the number of Elite 8’s (72 total).
Those with one fleeting appearance - Anderson, Brady, Capel, Dixon, Huggins, Kent, Larranaga, G. Marshall, F. Martin, McKillop, A. Miller, Ollie, Pearl, Ryan, Smart, Thompson III, B. Williams. That’s 17 right there for the guys that have one trip.
Two trips - Barnes (yes, Rick Barnes), Beilein, Boeheim, Drew (yes, Scott Drew), Krzyzewski, Brad Stephens, Wright.
Three trips - Calhoun, Howland, Izzo, Matta, Sean Miller
Four trips - Rick Pitino and Bill Self
Five trips - Roy Williams
Six trips - Billy Donovan
Seven trips - John Calipari
Simply put, he’s always there. In the last 9 years, since the OAD rule has really taken off, Calipari has always been around in the E8. 7 trips in 9 seasons is quite good. Coach K and Jim Boeheim (two great coaches) have as many trips as Rick Barnes and Scott Drew.
Calipari has done it year after year after year at two different schools regardless of who stayed, who left and who everybody else got. The only other coach with that level of consistency is Billy Donovan, although Calipari can match him with titles tonight.
If it takes 2-3 years to incubate your system, about the best you can do is what Self, Williams, Pitino and Izzo have done. You can get to 3-5 E8’s in 9 years. But if you want to be there year after year after year, I think you have to have a system that can be captured quickly so that you can maximize your available talent every single year.
Isn’t that what we want anyway - to have the best possible team every year?
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I was fortunate enough to have the very best coach during my youth. I absolutely put him on the level of Wooden. Maybe better. My coach went 10 years of basketball coaching without suffering a loss. Believe it or not. He didn’t lose a game until he got stuck with me and the band of gypsies that were with me. He eventually even made us winners.
He had only one magic gift that counted more than all the tactical skills, practice skills and game coaching of any of the coaches in this conversation. He couldn’t recruit like Calipari, he couldn’t develop like Self, and he couldn’t game coach like Izzo.
But what he did know how to do was mentor players. That’s why after tonight’s game, I’ll phone him up still… he’s approaching 80 years of age. He has players calling him every week from all over the globe.
If you want to find an issue with Self, look no further than the sex photo Naadir posted online. No player can do that who has total respect for his coach. I would have rather castrated myself than humiliate myself in front of my mentor. This should explain where the problem is.
My coach got his start from coaching boys at a boys’ farm. He took all the troubled kids, and within a short time he not only had them playing excellent basketball, he had them doing everything they could to turn their lives around because it would kill them to dissatisfy their coach. I was in the same boat. I was a troubled kid until I met this man and to this day I continue to thank him for turning my life around. And though his health is not good, he made a long travel to come visit me last fall after the birth of my son. He said he wanted to be the first coach to recruit him.
We all seem to think that winning a few games in March makes these guys great. It has nothing to do with greatness.
We can all question coaching philosophies and what not. But what makes a coach great is his ability to mentor players and create a following of believers. Start there and build confidence. Build confidence and grow self-worth. Grow self-worth and develop a work ethic. Develop a work ethic and learn a philosophy. Learn a philosophy and master execution. Master execution and never lose. Never lose and always win!
Now you have a great coach.
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@JRyman I’ve read most of these posts. I’m not real sure about any pills. But I read this piece and agree with some of it, but the poster to this article is really bitter. His assessment of Withey is wrong. I’m not sure about his BMac assessment, but can say with some certainty that he’s wrong. But I do get the overall gist of this scathing article. Bill Self is inconsistent and not sure at all what the hell he’s doing when it matters most.
I love Self and want him around for a very long time. But, who can you get to take his place? I think the responses are correct, KU fans want a bit too much when compared to some other great coaches. I don’t question Self’s inability or failure to win another NC, but I just question his coaching decisions more and more each game. He’s tight lipped and will not say a damn thing about off-court issues. He’ll never say a word of anything impacting his players or program, and maybe rightly so, but it would at least give some people pause. If we look at this season’s ending performance against Stanford, there’s a lot of questions Self will never answer. I wonder what take aways he learned from the Stanford game? Doesn’t matter, he’s the head coach and doesn’t give a damn what anyone thinks. Self may be a bit arrogant at times and seems to forget some things about his coaching. Maybe he’s been going through some personal crap, but we’ll never know.
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@drgnslayr Good story. Sounds like you were quite lucky to have this guy as your coach. I’m curious as to why I was tagged in it. Not that I don’t appreciate your post, just wondering what in particular I might have written that made you think of me.
As to the sex photo of Naadir, I don’t know that it’s an important distinction to you or not, but from what I gathered on twitter he wasn’t the one that posted it. It originated from someone else’s account. No idea how it got out so I don’t want to defend or criticize him more than he deserves. Could have been the girl sent it to someone, who sent it to someone, and on & on until someone decided to post it online. Or Naadir could have been sending it to his buddies who did the same thing. We don’t know. What we know is he was naked with a woman and took a “selfie”. I don’t know that him doing that, in and of itself, speaks at all to Self or Naadir’s level of respect towards him. These are 18-22 year old kids treated like Gods in the college towns that they play and are living in the digital age. This could spiral into a whole other discussion on whether these kids have to know what they’re getting into when they come to a place like Kansas and they must hold themselves above reproach. I think those are judgments I’m not comfortable making.
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From our paper yesterday:
http://theadvocate.com/sports/pelicans/8827998-123/jeff-witheys-growth-has-pleased
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@konkeyDong Examples on changes have been posted many times but you either failed to read or acknowledge.
Implement variety of zone defenses, 1-3-1, 2-3, triangle and 2. Teach them to the players, practice on a regular basis and execute on game day. Keep teams off balance, mix and match your d
Implement more pressing. It was a pity that we had such a talented, athletic and deep team but Self did not press more. He did it on couple of occasions against WV and Stanford but by that time both games were out of reach.
Create more drive and dish in your Offense, stop doing the same weave over and over again.
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I was just posting and it looked like most the conversations were with you. Hope you didn’t mind!
These kids have to be smarter than that. And hey… if they are old enough to make millions and millions (at least some) then they should learn to handle their stuff. The part that made it worse for me was the fact that it was a selfie.
He should have known this stuff would get loose. Maybe he was a trophy lay, or whatever… but he was the captain of this team.
Captain Selfie!
This youth thing of letting them off the hook all the time is starting to be a crutch for them. We all did things we weren’t proud of when we were young… but I never did anything that brazen that could hurt a bunch of people.
But… to be honest… I might have done something that would have hurt people (even quite a bit worse) had I not been mentored.
That is why I posted my story. Before being mentored I bet I was a much bigger problem to people around me than Naadir is.
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I am so thankful that during my college years we did not have digital cameras or cell phone or internet. I could have been in a lot of trouble…along with just about every body I knew. So, I will not pass judgement on Tharpe, I just wish he would be more careful and more aware of the potential consequences.
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@drgnslayr Hey, it couldn’t hurt recruiting. Maybe it’ll help us land that elite point guard everyone’s been talking about.
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So congrats to UConn for keeping Kentucky from a ninth National Championship, but that only means UConn has officially eclipsed Kansas as a blue blood national power. I am thankful that closing song montage spared us any reference to another Kansas upset and only highlighted Wiggs, which he deserved for his season. I was afraid that the crying Kansas kid was going to become an indelible fixture in 'One Shining Moment." One the other hand, our absence in that montage only emphasizes our growing irrelevance in the National Title conversation.
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We would need to get better looking girls; the one with Tharpe was not particularly attractive.
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“We had our chances to win,” Calipari said. “We’re missing shots, we’re missing free throws. We just didn’t have enough.”
Is he making excuses?
Is he lying?
I’d he using coach speak?
Is he covering up his short comings?
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@drgnslayr could probably say a lot, but you were very fortunate to have a mentor, you know a lot our players come here w/out one, or even a father. I hate what Tharpe did, cringe to think if that happened to a kid of mine! But, we don’t know the whole story, and frankly it’s not our business. I too did some dumb stuff, so thankful none of that was put out there for all to see! To look at this and think that Self is not close to the kids. Remember when the KU family rallied around TRob? FOE became a theme for our kids. Look at our academic success, the great support group that has surrounded our team. Cole came back to graduate, Ben is coming back this summer. These are all the success stories that I see from Bill Self. I guarantee as long as there are college kids, there will be slip ups, but if we’re going to put that on Self put the success stories on him too!
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I heard a comedian say this once, “I want to run for The President of the United States. That way all those media guys can find out what I did in college when I blacked out all those times.”
I too could say that
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@konkeyDong I’ll stick my nose in here, even tho you directed your request for specific changes at HEM. After all, this has been a sore point of mine since long before I started posting on any boards.
I think it starts with overall coaching style. I’ve heard a lot of good young coaches say they don’t want their demeanor affect their kids. It filters down from the top. When a coach is tight, the kids are tight. Roy was as guilty of this as anyone (Reference the 03 title game when Nick went 5/12 from the line and Kirk passed on several open 3’s) but Bill’s got it bad too. I remember a late season game when Naadir screwed up and Bill yelled at him for the entire timeout. Great. How does that help the team on the next play?
Bill intimidates his players with his quick hook. Ever notice that teams that upset us are free and easy with threes, while our guys are never sure if they should launch one? Like they’ve always got one eye on the bench? I’ll stand by my assertion that Bill’s early career treatment of EJ instilled a fear of failure in him that influenced him to pass on the biggest shot of his career.
Which brings me to a specific point, which you asked for–Bill doesn’t make the three pointer a part of his offense. Teams with good three points shooters run plays to get them open. When’s the last time you saw a Jayhawk run off a screen to get an open three?
And we should have been a GREAT three point shooting team this year. With Conner and Brannen and Naadir and Wayne and both Andrews, we should have been throwing down a dozen threes a game. But Bill just doesn’t make it part of his offense.
And that brings me to Bill’s refusal to use regular season minutes to develop bench guys for the tournament. This baffles me, because he did it with Cole masterfully in the Championship season. It was part of the regular rotation–Cole would come in for 4 minutes at the 12 minute mark of each half. And we all remember how that paid off in the Final Four.
I fully expected the same treatment for EJ and Jeff, but somewhere along the line, Bill lost his stomach for freshman/sophomore mistakes, even though he routinely enjoyed 20 pt leads in those two seasons. And by tournament time, he was too tight to trust his bench players, essentially choking his rotation down to six players against UNI, even though it was commonly remarked that our second five could be a Top 20 team that year. Imagine how another 3pt shooter or 7ft shot blocker might have influenced the 10 & 11 games. AndI sure would’ve liked to see Brannen and Conner and Andrew White get more time to develop during the regular season. But by tourney time, Bill didn’t have enough confidence to get them into the game. A couple more timely threes might’ve helped against Stanford.
As to specific changes, well, we should be a pressing team. We routinely enjoy an athletic advantage, but we never press that advantage. With waves of superior athletes over the course of a game, a good press will crush a less talented team. Bill’s excuse that a good team will beat a press for easy baskets doesn’t hold water. If that’s the case, how come we never beat a press for easy baskets? Why weren’t we pressing Stanford, without a real point guard, the whole game? Major coaching fail, Bill.
In terms of offense, well, Bill’s offense just sucks. All the way back to Big Dub, when he was required to just muscle for position, without ever a play or pick to get him open. It’s so predictable and scout-able. A Big’s gonna set a pick for a guard at the top of the key. Guess what? The D switches and, PLAY OVER. Remember Sherron at the end of the MIch. State game? Bill’s instructions were, “Go get it.” Great. No play–just one on five. And then there’s the lame weave out top when we get desperate. I haven’t seen that play get a bucket since Tyshawn left.
And then there’s this year and Bill’s continued insistence on running the offense thru the post. Not a terrible idea with JoJo, but still–YOU’VE GOT THE BEST WINGMAN TO COME INTO THE GAME IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS!!! Draw up some plays to get him the ball moving toward the basket! In a late season game, Bill exhorted Andrew, “It’s time to go! Now! Now!”
Great. How do I use that, Coach? How about drawing up a play for me? How about someone setting a pick for me?
I can’t believe commentators called Andrew a no-show against Stanford cuz he only took six shots. What kind of offensive sets only produce six shots for the best player in the country. Actually, probably only produced a couple shots for him, cuz I didn’t see much in Bill’s offense to get him open–he pretty much had to get his own. What’s he supposed to do, launch 25 footers, drive one on five against a zone. Greg Anthony called it pretty easily–get Andrew into the middle of the zone and let him go to work there. Nooo, we’re gonna run our offense thru Tarik Black.
With Bill’s ineptitude against the zone, I can’t believe anyone e would NOT zone us. Unless you’re one of those small schools we play early and it’s kinda in the contract, like, “We wanna work on our man to man offense, get it?” i.e. Don’t play zone.
Anyway, there’s a few concrete suggestions, along with pull-my-hair-out ranting.
- Use your athletic advantage and press.
- Run your offense thru your best player–don’t make your best player adapt to your offense.
- Hire an assistant who knows how to run a zone offense. 3b. Don’t be afraid to play some zone. Cal almost stole the game tonight by switching to the zone.
- Make the 3pt shot part of your offense.
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot. RUN WITH YOUR SUPERIOR ATHLETES!!! Don’t slow the game down with your Okie hokie pokie offense and let overmatched opponents catch their breath. Bill’s teams don’t even know HOW to run a fast break. More often than not, they screw it up.
Let’s see, anything else…
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My first post here, I have been reading threads since about October. I love the red pill/blue pill analogy. Here’s why I am a red pill guy: I expect championships. Why? Because of the exact reason people say I shouldn’t. 30 win seasons and 10 consecutive conference championships are the building block of a championship team. Not the reason to be satisfied. Why do I keep reading that those are reasons I should be satisfied or find consolation? Those “accolades” are the precursor to underachieving when a program has this kind of sustained regular season success and disappointing early outs in the only tournament that matters in college basketball. When “blue pill” folks use UK, UNC’s and UConn’s down years as a point that regular season failure is somehow the tradeoff we’d rather not have I say, exactly. KU doesn’t have down years, in the regular season. We don’t miss the tournament. We always win our conference. We should have more than one championship in the last 25 years. If I was fan of a school that did not have “blue blood” recruiting power and be considered an elite coaching destination job I would absolutely be excited about a conference championship or an Elite Eight run. I don’t have these expectations simply because I am a passionate fan. I wouldn’t have the same expectations if I lived in Iowa and Iowa State was my school. Most of these Tournament loses have been extremely disappointing to me. Not just because at the end of the game we had the lower score, it’s because we had the ability to make it to the end. Every year (besides 08 obviously) I feel like I have this prodigal child that aces his tests all year and then fails the final exam. Am I not supposed to be upset? Do I pat him on the head and say well you failed the big one but you did great on all the quizzes. You did enough to get a B but the final prevented you from that A. When Wiggins signed with KU I wasn’t excited because we were going to possibly win another BIG XII championship. My expectations shot up to National championship level. Not out in the round of 32. Same with Xavier, same with Julian.
During the tournament I saw a graphic that was sobering and made me rethink KU’s “elite” status(for the first time in my life). This elite status I believe was the biggest point to the red or blue question. I had always considered KU elite until I saw this: Since 1990 KU was one of five schools with 10 or more Elite Eight appearances. The other four schools are definitely on my “elite” program list. UK- 13 with 3 NC’s, UNC- 12 with 3 NC’s, Duke- 10 with 4 NC’s UConn- 10 with 3 now 4 NC’s and KU- 10 with 1 NC. All four other schools had at least 3.
Now, I haven’t made any “basketball” points in this post. That will come later. I’m merely addressing my feelings about why I feel like a red pill guy. One word, “underachieving”. This underachievement is exactly why it’s okay to call out Bill Self too. Our regular season success is also exactly why I judge our over all success and national program status on National Championships.
That Is All
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@That Is All Good point. It’s almost like our 25 year tournament appearance streak is an embarrassment because of the lack of National Championships it’s produced
