How Does the Rest of the Basketball World View KU ?
-
Someone asked a while back if we would trade our streak of conference championships for a National Championship.
At the time, I said no. Because I thought we were better than we really were. Right now, I’d trade “the streak” for a trip to the Elite Eight. Maybe even Sweet Sixteen.
I personally get sick to my stomach thinking of some of the powerhouse teams we’ve had (I’m not counting this year’s team as powerhouse - just full of raw talent that never quite “jelled” ) that have lost to MUCH lower seeded teams. I’m not going to name names, you all know them.
Anyway - when you lose to a team like that in 2005, hey - it can happen to anyone once. When you lose on a fairly regular basis to teams that you should pound like a sixteen penny nail - what does it say to the rest of the basketball world?
I’m genuinely interested in you guys’ opinions. Thanks!
-
@nuleafjhawk first, ultimate goal is N champs, but I’m not giving up conference championships! I want it all! Really don’t care what others say, it happens to a lot of great programs, example, look at this year. Madness! That is what makes it so special to win it all. I’m second guessing our tough preseason schedule. Did these young pups need to see more success to gain confidence? I don’t know!
-
We belong among the elites of basketball (UNC, Kentucky, Duke, Indiana, UCLA) that is evident with the total number of wins, final fours, history, etc.
However, we stick out like a sore thumb when you look at the number of National Championships.
If Florida wins this year, we will have exactly same number of Championships in the last 62 years, that Florida has in the last 8! That UConn has in the last 15.
The underachievement has spanned over multiple decades and coaches, so it has to be some sort of a statistical anomaly. I am hoping the Universe balances this out over the next several year and get us to what our average should compared to other parameters that we excel in.
I was hoping last year would be the start due to veteran seniors and a lotter pick. It didn’t happen. I was reminded that talent trumps experience.
I was hoping this year would be the start due to the number of pros (potential super stars) we had on the team. It didn’t happen. I’m being told experience beats freshmen talent by some.
2011 we seemed to have the best blend of both. It still didn’t happen. VC-frickin’-U happened!
Sorry for the rant. Just bitter right now. Feel like throwing up every time I click on ESPN.com (due to habit) and see the tourney coverage.
-
@nuleafjhawkYou know what the rest of the college basketball world thinks? That we suck- that we’re choke artists … do you know why? Because they DON"T ROOT FOR US! Do you know what the rest of the college basketball world would’ve said if we had won the national title? You got lucky…you got a sugar coated ride…an easy path… you weren’t that good!!! It’s like asking a Misery fan if he’s impressed with KU. I frequent way too many college bb boards, and the entire year, all I’ve heard was that Florida is over rated, Florida isn’t that good, Florida plays in a cupcake league, etc. Now, Florida has 3 straight Elite 8s coming into this year, on top of back to back national championships within the past 10 years, and are a virtual lock for the Final Four this year …and “they’re over rated”. It’s almost like the question pondered in War Games… the best way to answer the question of " oh golly, what do they think of us"is with this response: I DON’T CARE WHAT THEY THINK OR SAY ABOUT US. and if that sounds defensive, sensitive, overreactive, so be it. We will win another national championship shortly. Not sure when, not sure how, but we will win another one. The rest of the clowns talking trash about KU are going to be shut up one of these days. And when it happens…how sweet it is!!!
-
There is only ONE team that is happy at the end of the year, and every other successful program ends the season with a loss.
In a day and age when Mercer can bounce Duke and Bobby Mo can beat Kentucky in the NIT, winning 10 Conference Titles in a row is an extraordinary accomplishment and one that no other (major conference) team has done since the UCLA glory days when parity was not even in the radar.
While winning the NC is great achievement, we should not define the success of a season simply by winning it. If this was the case, there are 350 out of 351 school that would have unsuccessful seasons every year.
As a fan base, we are extremely spoiled. While most every other fan base is wandering whether its school will make it to the dance, we are wondering if KU will be a top 3 seed and are disappointed if it is not. I am not sure what is enough to some fans…most wins in the last 10 years, 10 conference titles in a row, best winning percentage over the last 1o years, consistently one of the top 3 programs, a great coach, great tradition, AFH, he Cathedral of basketball…I can go on…
Yes, we have had powerhouse teams that did not get the title but there are many other school with similar “powerhouse” teams that did not win it either. The best team in college BBall is not always the champion; it is the team that gets hot, gets some lucky bounces and manages to advance that wins the title. If Frankamp makes the 3 point shot at the end of the game and KU wins in overtime, we are not even having this discussion. One lucky bounce could have changed the entire outcome in the same way that Mario’s shot change the outcome in 2008.
There comes a time when we need to be happy for what we have and for what the team has achieved and quit being sore about what we don’t have or have not achieved. Except for maybe a couple of other programs. most would trade places with KU, no question asked. Some day we will telling our kids and grand kids how we watched NBA super stars Wiggins and Embiid play at KU. Let’s be happy with what we have and move on.
-
Just got a tweet that Selden is coming back, hope it’s true. Not guaranteeing it!
-
@JayHawkFanToo I seriously agree w/everyone of your posts. You say it in a much better way than I do. Thanks !
-
Jo Jo’s tweet
@jojo_embiid: @WayneSeldenJr hjgddqdujiihgtrrghnm
Figure that out?
-
Thank you. I guess I am a glass half-full type of person and tend to concentrate on the positives. Concentrating on the negative aspects tends to makes you sore and unhappy; positive thinking makes you happier and hopeful.
-
@JayHawkFanToo my friends call me Pollyanna, I don’t always think it’s good, just who I am.
-
I have long argued that regionally, conference championships matter more, but on the national stage, Final Fours and championships are all that matters. Conference titles only matter to the people in your league. Do we care who wins the Pac12, or the Big 10, or the American in a given year?
The only way to be prominent nationally is to play in the Final Four. As @KUSTEVE noted, even getting to the Elite Eight isn’t enough. The national conscience doesn’t pay attention until the Final Four. Even the biggest college hoops fans probably couldn’t name last year’s Elite Eight, but I bet everyone could name the last couple of Final Fours. That’s just how things work.
It’s the same thing in every sport. We don’t remember who played in the NFC championship game, but we remember the Super Bowl. We don’t remember the LCS, but we remember the World Series. The Final Four is the big event, so that’s what we remember. That’s how you gain prominence nationally.
That doesn’t mean the other stuff doesn’t matter. It’s just that Final Fours and National Titles matter so much more on a national scale.
-
I always hate to see us lose.
But… as long as we come ready to play and give it everything we got (coaches and players), then I have no problems with it! I may be grumpy for a few days, but I feel like we represented ourselves well and there was nothing more the coaches and players could do. Sometimes… we are going to lose!
But… when I feel we didn’t come ready to play and anyone of the coaches our players slacked off, I’m going to point them out. I don’t care if it is our beloved head coach, or the water boy. When we leave something on the table, we all have to go through our summer wondering… and feeling anxiety… and the lack of fulfillment.
Sports is about competing. It is about giving it your all. Anything short of it and you are selling yourself short, along with your teammates and fans.
Fans expect players to leave it all on the court. I can’t think of one KU fan that didn’t praise our 2012 team after losing in the Finals. We were completely over-matched… but we brought everything we had. I believe, deep down, all fans were satisfied that year. We had overachieved!
-
Well said!
My unhappiness wasn’t over our loss. I was unhappy with our preparation and play. I was unhappy with the way we represented the University of Kansas. I was unhappy because the effort we needed to win ended up in our luggage going back to Lawrence.
I would have been unhappy had we won that game! We didn’t deserve it!
-
@justanotherfan It’s like this : the scoffers will say you’re over rated anytime you get any attention. When you lose, they show up again to say I told you so. If you win, then they’re there to say you really weren’t that good, or you cheated, or you paid off the refs. If you cut down the nets, then they say their team from 1984 would’ve beaten you by double digits, or the tournament field was weak, or you won’t repeat. It’s really ridiculous watching critics turn themselves into pretzels in order to run down your team. I noticed that there were plenty of congratulatory Misery tweets after we lost on the kusports.com website. Now, their team ended up getting their ass handed to them in the NIT by the powerhouse Southern Mississippi later that day, but that didn’t stop Meth U from talking trash.
-
For two decades I’d say to my wife after KU lost to end the season short of a title that it was OK, because they can’t take the 1988 title from me, from the memories of being on campus that season, of celebrating wildly on campus til two or three in the morning.
I still have that great memory. 08 of course was great, winning a game with one of history’s great shots in our favor. No one has won more than one since that year. We’re ok, more titles will come.
-
It is all relative. Butler wan in the finals two years in a row and they are still a mid-major program and no one in his right mind would put it a the same level as KU, Duke, UK, UNC. Short term fame is fleeting but continuous success is remembered.
Some people hate KU’s continuous success and they will always find a reason to criticize it. I am just happy with the program with have and hope that it continues having the same success; I could not care less what fans of other programs think.
-
I’d absolutely agree. But there are many around college basketball that question whether Indiana still belongs the game’s elite. Their last Final Four appearance was in 2002. Their last title was in 1987. To put that in perspective, most of the guys that will be freshmen weren’t even in school the last time Indiana was on the big stage. That matters.
No, Butler didn’t leap to the forefront after going to consecutive title games. But look at a program like Florida. They weren’t really a school with any kind of success 20 years ago, but now they can recruit on the same level as KU, because they have the two titles and multiple Final Fours over the last 15 years.
National prominence matters because we as KU have to recruit nationally. Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, and Oklahoma just don’t produce enough high major talent for us to rely on being dominant only in conference. In Texas, we have to compete with the entire country for recruits. We have no geographic advantage to offer recruits.
Going back to Indiana, look at how many of the top recruits in Indiana are going out of state to Ohio State, Louisville, Kentucky and others. Historically, Indiana has more reach than both OSU and Louisville, but that doesn’t matter to an 18 year old because, again, they probably don’t remember the last time Indiana was in the Final Four. If a power program wants to maintain its national prominence, the had better be in the Final Four at least once every 5-7 years, and win a title at least once every 15 or so years, otherwise they will eventually get to a recruiting class that won’t remember the last time they were on the national stage.
The kids in the Class of 2014 remember Mario’s shot. They were 12 or 13 when that happened. They definitely remember Anthony Davis and MKG winning it all. They probably remember Florida going back to back. They probably don’t know who Sean May is. They definitely don’t know who Juan Dixon is.
I remember growing up, the first three really great college teams I remember were Duke, Arkansas and Michigan. I have no recollection of Glen Rice’s Michigan teams, but I do remember the Fab 5. I remember Laettner and Hurley. I remember those really good 40 Minutes of Hell Arkansas teams. And I grew up in Kansas. Around a KU team that went to the Final Four in '88, '91 and '93. But I was too young to remember their title in '88. I only barely remember the 1991 season and going back to the title game. Duke sticks out because they went back to back, and while I have only vague memories of 1991, I remember 1992 very clearly. Michigan sticks out because they were in back to back title games. Arkansas was too, winning one and losing one. But notice something crazy about that list - one of the great teams I remember never won a conference title. I couldn’t tell you who the Big 10 champs were either of those years, honestly. But I remember Michigan because they went to the Final Four.
It’s easy as a fan to see things and feel like they should put us in the spotlight because we understand the significance. But honestly, if you’re a 10 year old on the east coast right now, was KU really on your radar this year? UCLA? Indiana? If you’re out west, have you paid any attention to North Carolina? Ohio State? Duke? Syracuse? That’s three decades worth of national titles between those 7 schools. And yet, most of the kids in the Class of 2022 probably won’t remember anything about their season this year.
-
I think you are making my point. Look at programs like Arkansas, UCLA and Indiana. while you remember some of the great team they had, they are no longer consider elite, not because they have not won a National Title lately, but because they have not had continued success. Florida is an elite program not necessarily because its two titles but because it consistently contends year in and year out.
Take KU. No question that it is one of the top 3 programs in college BBall and this analysis places KU at #1.
Now, if instead of beating Memphis it would have lost, it would still be #1 tied with Duke, even it it means it was 26 years since it last won a National Championship. KU is an elite program because it is consistently good and every year it contest for the title, and not because it won a Title 6 years ago. The #2 program,Duke, was bounced in the first round by a #15 seed 2 of the last 3 years, but since they are consistently good, NCAA notwithstanding, they are consider an elite program.
Again, continued success will trump one or two isolated, outstanding seasons.
-
@nuleafjhawk I have pondered that a lot and in the end I would rather have 5 months of success than 3 weeks of success. However, we need to have some level of success in the post season…the 08 NC and the 12 runner up balance out the early exists in my opinion.
-
Interesting question. Close friend is a Kentucky fan and he doesn’t filter his comments to me (though I often wish he would), and he thinks Self has a NCAA choke problem - although he openly acknowledges he’d trade Cal for Self any day. He thinks that we get help from the refs (in general) and thinks it’s a huge advantage that the Big 12 championships are almost always in KC. I choose not to argue with him much…but his views align with most of the Mizzou fans I know. I don’t know if this is a coincidence or if he’s lived in MO too long. I do remind him that Rupp was. Jayhawk. Friends/acquaintances I know who are Syracuse, Duke, UNC fans seem to regard us with respect. I do get comments like “oh, Kansas, they always bust my bracket”… End of the day, I know how fortunate I am to be a KU alum and fan. Rock chalk.
-
@JayHawkFanToo Interesting point about Duke. I’ll bet KU would have gotten a lot more bad press if Duke and WSU were in the Sweet 16. Of the top seeds who got bounced, we were the ones not at full strength.
-
@ParisHawk it certainly sucks watching this game!!! Not many fans. I want to wake up from this nightmare! And then the hilites from our game, blah!!!
