Posts made by Jhawk69

That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.

I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don’t work out and that is fine.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Selden, Wiggins, and Ellis were starters. White didn’t need to start to be part of the rotation. He could have played off the bench without usurping any of those players. That is a basic and objective fact and I am surprised I have to explain that.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Those three players combined to average 20 mpg. Give all those minutes to AW3 and he is part of the rotation.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I would have played him over Brannen Greene and Connor Frankamp

@MoonwalkMafia Fair enough. But in what way was Self stubborn about Jamari and Cliff?

@kjayhawks Yes. Getting Rylan and AJ going would help a ton. I don’t think anyone disagrees with this. But many simply assume that playing them more will get them going. Bill is handling them in his own way. Maybe its the right way and maybe its not, but I would trust him more than I would people on the internet.

The take that Brady Morningstar, who shot 57% from the field, 41% from three, averaged over three assists, was a great defender, and started on a team that went 35-3, was a bad player certainly is interesting.

Here is a counter-argument: Brady Morningstar was a good role player who choked in the tournament.

Once again I put to you the question,

But, let’s assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn’t get suspended?

@MoonwalkMafia

@approxinfinity KJ is not a good rebounder, which is disappointing. The past few weeks, he has been elite at the “stop the other team from making a basket” part of defense. Hunter is a better defender than he was last year but still is not elite. Flory is a higher upside defender than Hunter but also is prone to fouls. KJ, Flory, and Hunter should all play, and the way the minutes are distributed in a given game should be determined by matchups and who is playing well.

@approxinfinity That’s a good question. If Rylan and AJ never get going I think the answer is pretty obvious. KJ at the 4, try to build around an elite defense and figure out ways to score enough to win games. But if Rylan and/or AJ figures it out I think things change. Maybe split time between KJ at the 4 and a 4 around 1 lineup. Or we could play things situationally. But at the end of the day, its all about tradeoffs. Is having the superior 4 around 1 structure worth the tradeoff of sacrificing KJs defense? It depends on whether another guard steps up and if so, to what extent.

@approxinfinity To quote a fellow bucketeer, “I think you kind of missed the jist of my post.” I never said KJ was a guard. I said that Bill wants to play 2 bigs this year and not play 4 around 1.

I see. For better or for worse, Bill has decided to go 2-bigs this year. I don’t endorse this option, for I think 4 around 1 has been established as the better option. But, on the other hand, no matter what the combination is, having KJ play the 4 helps our defense tremendously.

@approxinfinity That is fine to think, but the facts don’t support this take. We have a significant amount of data that shows that we are better with KJ in the game than with AJ or Rylan.

@MoonwalkMafia That was the one good game Cliff played in all of conference play. That is an example of cherry picking.

Jamari could stay in position better than Cliff. He could switch onto guards (and Cliff could not). Again, NONE OF THIS IS TO SAY THAT JAMARI WAS A GREAT PLAYER.

But, let’s assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn’t get suspended?

@BeddieKU23 Well, we are clearly a better overall team with KJ on the floor than off. 28 minutes is not excessive. 35+ is. If Flory and Hunter are playing great then I have no problem with KJ playing fewer minutes. But if not then there is nothing wrong with 28 minutes from KJ.

@kuballin10 Good morning. You made a lot of interesting points and I will try to respond succinctly.

Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.

There is no reason to bicker about Cliff vs Jamari anyways because Self started Cliff in hopes of helping him click, but then Cliff got suspended and Self had to play Jamari.

Under-achieving in March has much more to do with choking than it does not having a talented enough lineup out there. If you can go 30-4 or whatever in the regular season you are good enough to beat anyone. But you could lose to anyone if you choke.

KJ has both strengths and weaknesses. I am well aware of both. His biggest strength is defense. The KSU game suggests that his defense helps us more than his lack of shooting hurts us.

You are right about Bill Self having longer leashes with some players than he does with others. Everyone makes mistakes so you can’t yank everyone after one. Players that Bill assesses as good are indeed allowed to play through mistakes more than players Bill believes are not as good. Bill gives all his scholarship players chances to earn his trust. He then assigns levels of trust according to how well he thinks they play.

This often results in younger players, who have not had the same chance to earn Bill’s trust, having shorter leashes than older players, even in cases where the younger player has more talent and potential than the older player (recall: more talent and potential does not guarantee superior basketball abilities in the present moment or the near future). But Bill does allow young but talented players to have a chance to earn his trust. If they come in, play hard, and do a few good things alongside a mistake, they probably won’t get yanked. But if they do nothing positive and then make a mistake, they will get yanked.

Should Bill give players who are not as good a leash that is equally as long as better players? I would argue no. The system of reward when things go well and punishment when things don’t has been a backbone of human development, and is the basis for rearing children and economic growth. But, reasonable minds can disagree. A case could be made that allowing certain players to play through several mistakes would help mentally.

Also, arguing that our 2022 title wasn’t legit comes across as a desperate attempt to discredit our program. To be more convincing, you have to acknowledge our success and argue that our short-comings are still enough to cancel it out.

Like I said, very succinct response lol. Rock Chalk.

People complain about Bill’s minutes distrubutions for 2 reasons

1. They do not understand the difference between talent and impact on the game.

2. They do not understand trade-offs.

I talked about talent vs impact above. I will explain tradeoffs here.

There are certain traits that fans want to see in their teams basketball players. If players have such traits, they think that those players are good. If not, they think they are bad. But, these few traits fans judge are not the only traits that impact a game. So a player lacking in a desired trait might be exceptional in other traits. If this player is given minutes instead of someone who has a more desired trait but does not have other traits, it is a trade-off. You trade one skillset for another. Because there are no perfect players, and because every player has different traits and abilities, all playing time decisions involve trade-offs. A coaches job is not to roll out a perfect team, but to analyze the trade-offs and get the best one possible. This will inevitably involve the sacrifice of certain traits being on the floor.

Many of you will claim that this is obvious, but it is clear that not all of you understand it well enough to incorporate it into your opinions of our players and of how our team is managed.

@SlimShaddy54 True! I sync Hanni and Gurley to my tv every game.

@BeddieKU23 What would be the point of calling for others to play instead of KJ if people didn’t believe that doing so would make us better?

Methinks that maybe this game proves that Bill Self was right about KJ and people on the internet were wrong

@KirkIsMyHinrich We will get a highly touted guard in the portal. The question is whether he ends up being a Mayo or a Timberlake.

@MoonwalkMafia

I wasn’t really talking about KJ. The point is that I believe Bill Self’s choices in the past are not evidence of a stubborn will to play less talented but more experienced players to the detriment of the team. He assesses who gives us the best chance to win and plays that player. He doesn’t bat 100 but he is right more than wrong and is right more than any of us on this board.

Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.

@MoonwalkMafia In KJs absense we should play Rylan and Keese at the 4. Maybe give Storr another chance too, see if we can get him going.

When KJ comes back he should get some playing time at both the 4 and 5, but we should continue to play small ball a lot.

I think something everyone needs to understand is that

1. If player A has more upside and talent than player B, it does not guarantee that player A is automatically a better basketball player in any given moment of time than player B.

2. If player A (who is more talented than player B but not as good a basketball player at the current moment) is given a lot of minutes he is not guaranteed to suddenly become a better player than player B in a short period of time.

A couple examples of this are Frank Mason who played slightly fewer minutes than Naadir Tharpe as a freshman and Perry Ellis, who backed up Kevin Young as a freshman. They stuck around for a long time and eventually developed into players that were miles better than Tharpe and KY. But it took time, there is no evidence to believe this process could have been expedited by playing them a few more minutes per game as freshmen.

@MoonwalkMafia

Per game Traylor averaged 21 minutes and Cliff averaved 18. Cliff averaged 2 more ppg and 1 more rpg. He was also a significantly worse defender. At that time, Traylor was the better option and it was very obvious. Cliff had more long term potential but he was not going to turn into a great player overnight. He was going to have to stick around for at least another year to be a starting caliber player, so playing him more would not have helped.

Besides, Bill DID give Cliff the starting job anf more minutes to Cliff in hopes that he would develop, only for him to get suspended.

@COHawk Yes!

https://www.cjonline.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/17/no-regrets-all-landen-lucas-chasing-title-and-down-ku-basketball-run-ends/16551496007/

@kuballin10 It is technically possible that Cliff, or Cheick or Josh Selby could have helped us but it is by no means “obvious”. There is no evidence that they would have and it is pure speculation to say that they would have. In fact, I think they would have made our seasons worse had they played more (and there is evidence to support this).

As for our loss in the round of 32 to Stanford, I actually agree Frank probably should have played more that season. (though this is debatable, freshman Frank was not the same beast as senior Frank) But in that game he actually played more minutes than Frankamp and it is pretty clear we lost because Embiid was injured and Wiggins disappeared. I don’t think minutes distribution has much to do with it.

@MoonwalkMafia Cliff averaged 2 more points and 1 more rebound than Jamari with approximately the same amount of minutes. Cliff was also a HUGE liability on defense. Jamari wasn’t a great rim protector but was still miles better than Cliff.

As for Cheick vs Landen, Landen scored more ppg although Cheick had more points per minute. That is where Cheick’s advantages stop. Landen was clearly a better rebounder, a better post defender, had a better shooting percentage, fouled less, and turned the ball over less.

I am not saying Landen was great. I would have loved for Cheick to play great and take the starting spot, making Landen a solid backup. But Cheick was not good enough. He had tons of potential, but was a project. He should have stuck around a few years honestly.

If I recall correctly, for the first half of the 2016 season, we were playing musical chairs at the 5-spot. Sometimes it was Cheick, sometimes Bragg, sometimes Lucas, sometimes Mickelson. We struggled at times because of it. Then, when we settled on Landen, we started playing much better. He wasn’t great, but he was good enough, unlike the other options.

That’s my take anyways. Interested in hearing all of your thoughts.

@kuballin10 We went something like 35-3 with Brady and Tyrel starting as seniors. I don’t think there is any reason to doubt Bill’s decision to start them. If we really want to look at situations where Self played the wrong guys, I think not playing Naadir Tharpe enough in 2013 (I know that sounds weird, but Tharpe was the only true PG that year and we needed that) and not playing Andrew White III enough when he was here were mistakes.

@MoonwalkMafia Landen Lucas was a better player than Cheick Diallo. Jamari was better than Cliff. Bill gave both Cheick and Cliff ample chances. At one point he started Cliff over Jamari for a few games just in hopes it would jumpstart Cliff and help him reach his potential. It didn’t. Sometimes players just don’t perform and need to take a back seat to others with less talent but who are just better players.

None of this is to say Bill is perfect or that he has never made a wrong decision in whom to play. But neither Cliff nor Cheick was benched for a lesser player just because of “trust” or anything like that.

Since winning the title in 2022 we have had:

2023: a season where we won the Big 12 and earned a one seed but got bounced early

2024: our worst season under Bill Self but we lost our best player due to injury and were still ranked all season and never in danger of missing the tournament

2025: mostly TBD but right now looks like a borderline top-10 team that is a long shot to win the title

That is nowhere near bad enough to panic. If you don’t believe me look at the history of every other program in college basketball. If we have a couple more below-average seasons or ever miss the tournament then there might be cause for concern.

@BShark I don’t want to say “good” in response to that because I don’t wish injury upon anybody. But the silver lining to Clemmence not being healthy is that we are basically forced to play 4 around 1.

I don’t know if I can agree that Lance is running a borderline shit show. Even with last season not going how we expected he is still way ahead of schedule. But yes, KU fans are comically entitled when it comes to basketball.

Is Clemmence healthy enough to play?

@rockchalkjayhawk It is a little tiresome. A little unfair too, that players worse than them take none of the blame. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

This was one we were always going to lose. Its okay. Let’s take care of K-State now

@approxinfinity I don’t think so. Not yet anyways. This team lacks effort but I think that will change once Hunter is gone

I told you guys. Leave ISU guards a little space on the perimeter and its an automatic 3.

This game was lost on 50/50 balls. Hopefully a lesson for the squad. On to the next one.

@Zabudda Hunter will attempt about 20 shots. He will make 7-8 of them. He will also be in position for about 20 rebounds, he will come down with about 12 of them and be outhustled by smaller ISU forwards for the other 8. He will finish with something like 18 points and 12 rebounds but will be largely ineffective. To make up for that, Mayo and Harris will have to shine and Rylan will need to knock down some threes.

@BShark That is all true, but I think they will rain threes against us.

Still, we have to play a near perfect game to win this one. All their guards will be automatic from 3 if we leave them evem a little open.

It’s almost as if no longer being a joke of a program is appealing to recruits

Is there anyone who disagrees that offense is slightly more important than defense but that both are extremely important?

Shhhh. 2018 never happened

A debate about whether having an elite defense is a good thing… This should be interesting

Zeke, Shak, and DaJuan were all rock-solid on defense. Shout-out to Hunter for playing the best defensive game of his career as well.

KJ was awesome today. That stretch where he forced the Cincinnati turnover then got the stickback and drew the foul was the most important moment in the game

Tech had it won in regulation but couldn’t knock down their free throws.

We are growing more and more frustrated and Cincy is growing more and more confident

One thing that scares me about the Bearcats:

Their biggest weakness is free-throw shooting. BUT, we all know they will be excellent at the line today.