If Bill Self were suspended for a year...
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Fire Self.
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@Bshark Rewind to last October. Try acknowledgement, contrition, commitment to transparency. A full investigation. An in house report. All done without making specific admissions, but noting that issues are pervasive in CBB and we are part of that. The thing is, we KNEW we were guilty then and so did Self, Long, et. al. I just want the embarrassing statements to stop.
@cragarhawk Agreed. Burn it down. Do we have more here that agree now? If we’re getting targeted, then we have a DUTY to clean things up like the NCAA wants, right? The more transparent the better. We need to have the DOSSIER ready.
Bill Self, Oct 23, 2018: “As the leader of the Kansas men’s basketball program, I take pride in my role to operate with integrity and within the NCAA rules, which is a fundamental responsibility of being the head basketball coach.”
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Bshark Rewind to last October. Try acknowledgement, contrition, commitment to transparency. A full investigation. An in house report. All done without making admissions and noting that issues are pervasive in CBB. I just want the embarrassing statements to stop.
@cragarhawk Agreed. Burn it down. Do we have more that agree? If we’re getting targeted, then we have a DUTY to clean things up like the NCAA wants, right? The more transparent the better. We need to have the DOSSIER ready.
Bill Self, Oct 23, 2018: “As the leader of the Kansas men’s basketball program, I take pride in my role to operate with integrity and within the NCAA rules, which is a fundamental responsibility of being the head basketball coach.”
Yeah… the NCAA wouldn’t accept an in-house investigation. We’re not dook. Like you’ve said repeatedly, the NCAA can basically do what it wants. Why not take this to the court of public opinion and then the court of law if need be? There’s not an aggravating factor in the NCAA rulebook about saying mean things about them. They’re adults. We’re adults. This is the game we play.
After this is over, things will return to normal. Just look at USC football. Got busted, then things went right back to where they were re: recruiting. Cleaning up (following every rule to the letter) means we won’t be competitive. Full stop.
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wissox said:
Fire Self.
No.
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@wissox without complete and total vindication from the NCAA or the demise of the NCAA I’d find it very hard to believe he won’t be gone anyway one way or another honestly
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cragarhawk said:
@wissox without complete and total vindication from the NCAA or the demise of the NCAA I’d find it very hard to believe he won’t be gone anyway one way or another honestly
You can believe that, but Boeheim at Cuse got like half a season and last I checked, he’s still there. Will Wade, still there. DePaul coach, still there.
Everyone I’ve talked to says Self is angry at this. Mad the NCAA is scapegoating KU when he knows everyone else does the same, or worse. He’s going to coach his ass off. KU will not accept a postseason ban. Period. They’ll exhaust every remedy they have to avoid it. They will live with a minor suspension for Self (under 10 games), Townsend taking a retirement, and play with 12 scholarships for a couple years. Anything more they’ll fight tooth and nail.
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Well, I firmly believe that KU is bigger than Syracuse, LSU, and DePaul… There’s only so much embarrassment they will take. I could be wrong. We shall see.
I do continue to love the whole everyone is doing it now that we know we’re doing it narrative though. Removes some of the stain…
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@wissox Umm hard no and no again.
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It’s been my position for years (backed up by many sources) that everyone is doing it. It’s the people who are just now seeing it who’ve had their heads in the sand.
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Sources? I’m with @HighEliteMajor on this one too. It’s miraculous that these “sources” are so quiet. Especially in this era where everyone wants something for nothing… Scorned girlfriend, pissed off sibling, pissed off teammate, pissed off transfer, fired coach, basically any player that washed out of pro ball and wants his 15 min of Fame. All the programs, all of them doing it… And yet so few whistle blowers. It’s unfathomable. There’s literally been more ppl step forward saying our president grabbed their puss 20 years after the fact than there are legitimate “sources” that everyone is doing this
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I think everyone is overreacting with such huge disgust and hysterical comments about tearing down the NCAA. Fat chance. This was inevitable after the court case evidence and the SDS ineligibility findings. And any public statements would likely not have made a whit of difference then or now.
For crying out loud, let it all play out. KU still gets to respond. This is the NCAA indictment stage. No reason to set the self (or Self) destruct mechanism in motion yet. Punishments will be determined later.
And, if anyone wants to abandon ship, no one can blame you. I still might, too, but if so it will be based on what is known and what is proven, not what is rumored, so it will be awhile.
That likely will let me focus on enjoying watching this team play for this year. I have always wanted to be able to watch basketball with fewer distractions anyway.
My last comment on this whole mess until it is resolved. BB is wonderful but I am too old to get that emotionally worked up about things I cannot control.
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cragarhawk said:
Sources? I’m with @HighEliteMajor on this one too. It’s miraculous that these “sources” are so quiet. Especially in this era where everyone wants something for nothing… Scorned girlfriend, pissed off sibling, pissed off teammate, pissed off transfer, fired coach, basically any player that washed out of pro ball and wants his 15 min of Fame. All the programs, all of them doing it… And yet so few whistle blowers. It’s unfathomable. There’s literally been more ppl step forward saying our president grabbed their puss 20 years after the fact than there are legitimate “sources” that everyone is doing this
Believe me or not, but I’ve had many conversations with people in this business who know how it works. It’s a matter of gaining people’s trust over time. You can ask people like Ryan Noel, Matt Scott, Andrew Slater, and on down the line about how many players get paid. Their answers will be the same: almost all of them. I can’t get into a lot of specifics on a public board for risk of burning people, but it’s not just pervasive, it’s the norm.
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I hope they don’t take away Silvio’s eligibility again.
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@jhawk7782 won’t be settled til after he’s gone
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KU played an eligible player found ineligible after. Not that it matters one way or the other. KU would have still been charged regardless of playing said player
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I always crack up at the everyone’s doing it excuse. That’s admitting guilt. When we’re at that stage, we deserve whatever the penalty is. I’m still miffed at this as I was thinking everything had been resolved.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
cragarhawk said:
Sources? I’m with @HighEliteMajor on this one too. It’s miraculous that these “sources” are so quiet. Especially in this era where everyone wants something for nothing… Scorned girlfriend, pissed off sibling, pissed off teammate, pissed off transfer, fired coach, basically any player that washed out of pro ball and wants his 15 min of Fame. All the programs, all of them doing it… And yet so few whistle blowers. It’s unfathomable. There’s literally been more ppl step forward saying our president grabbed their puss 20 years after the fact than there are legitimate “sources” that everyone is doing this
Believe me or not, but I’ve had many conversations with people in this business who know how it works. It’s a matter of gaining people’s trust over time. You can ask people like Ryan Noel, Matt Scott, Andrew Slater, and on down the line about how many players get paid. Their answers will be the same: almost all of them. I can’t get into a lot of specifics on a public board for risk of burning people, but it’s not just pervasive, it’s the norm.
Then the press is not doing their jobs. Not those guys, they’re recruiting guys. But if they “know”, then Jesse Newell knows, Gary Bedore knows, Matt Tait knows. Where are they?
Until then, until there is real information flowing, it’s just conjecture.
But of course, you know what you’re saying – if it is “pervasive” and it is the “norm”, then Bill Self is flat out lying.
And to your comments further above regarding and internal investigation and report – that can help avoid the “lack of institutional control” element. This can help mitigate the damage. Obviously there is no aggravating factor for saying “mean” things. But when you’re dealing with human beings, pettiness, you name it, massaging things like this initially vs. name calling, insults, and lies would perhaps offer a better path.
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mayjay said:
I think everyone is overreacting with such huge disgust and hysterical comments about tearing down the NCAA. Fat chance. This was inevitable after the court case evidence and the SDS ineligibility findings. And any public statements would likely not have made a whit of difference then or now.
For crying out loud, let it all play out. KU still gets to respond. This is the NCAA indictment stage. No reason to set the self (or Self) destruct mechanism in motion yet. Punishments will be determined later.
And, if anyone wants to abandon ship, no one can blame you. I still might, too, but if so it will be based on what is known and what is proven, not what is rumored, so it will be awhile.
That likely will let me focus on enjoying watching this team play for this year. I have always wanted to be able to watch basketball with fewer distractions anyway.
My last comment on this whole mess until it is resolved. BB is wonderful but I am too old to get that emotionally worked up about things I cannot control.
I can tell you that my “burn it down” suggestion, which I offered up after this came to head last October, has nothing to do with “tearing down the NCAA.” It is about building it up.
To threaten to expose the massive wrongdoing of the CBB masses is based on self-preservation, first and foremost. But it also would have the effect of forcing CBB in to a different phase. That the rules actually matter. If info was made public regarding the demands for compensation, the deals known to KU that were made, the extra benefits, where this parent is living and how they paid for the house, etc., that would cut across all of CBB. We’d be in a sea of wrongdoing, not a small little pond with our head sticking up. It would force the NCAA to consider that all of it’s major programs would be getting penalties. Thus what kind of precedent would they want to set with KU? And, very importantly, what changes would that force?
And if this is so “pervasive” as everyone seems to think, then it would not be a large task. If it’s so pervasive, then Bill Self is a flat out liar. Not just kind of a liar, but a full blown, worst type of liar - the indignant liar. All of this has disturbing implications no matter which way you go.
The “burn it down” suggestion is just a defensive posture, it’s leverage, it’s a negotiating tactic and would be a real threat to the NCAA and other schools if we are to be singled-out, which seems to be the case. Again, if this is “pervasive”, then there must be a wealth of information.
But what do I know?
Also, to make everyone’s day, it’s the lead story right now at espn.com. And we complain about Duke getting all the headlines.
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@wissox “Fire Self”
Better yet - 86 the basketball program and put our heart and soul into football. A man’s sport.
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Wow. Just wow. What is happening in this thread??! Do people not think KU did not know this was coming for sometime now. They have been working on this for months. Nothing that came from the NCAA yesterday was a surprise. This will be fought to the very end, and personally there will be some penalties, but it is not going to be anything major.
@cragarhawk Is you opinion really that this doesn’t happen everywhere?
Also, can we please stop with the “fire Self” BS. Good grief.
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@Woodrow ya it might be. But there’s still some unanswered questions if that’s the case. Like why not play Preston anyway then? Cliff Alexander? Etc
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Ok guys and gals, help me out please. I thought that the trials in November proved that Self and KU had no knowledge of Adidas’ shenanigans. In fact it proved that there was “a conspiracy to defraud them”.
Here’s a quote from Tompsett and Sullivan in their response. “After a comprehensive FBI investigation, in which KU cooperated fully, federal prosecutors determined that both KU and its athletic department had been subject to a criminal conspiracy to defraud them. After several weeks of trial last year, the federal jury agreed finding that KU and its employees were unaware that the defendants’ illicit payments compromised the eligibility of certain student-athletes.”
I get that a rule was broken, so therefore the NCAA just sends out a NOA to the university whether it was their fault or not. However, how can they punish us hard when there was a case of no wrong doing on KU’s part? Is it judiciary rulings vrs institutional rules?
I apologize for the ignorance here, but I’m just a little confused as to what leg the NCAA has to stand on when we fight back. Thanks
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@rockchalkwyo The we make our own rules leg.
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@HighEliteMajor Read an interesting article from Sports Illustrated that breaks down the NCAA hatchet job on KU and Coach Self.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2019/09/23/bill-self-kansas-jayhawks-ncaa-allegations-fbi
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@Woodrow My remarks are sarcasm. I can only assume the “fire Self” comment was too.
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@nuleafjhawk I know yours were, but I do not think some of the others were. I actually think some people / fans want Self fired.
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@Woodrow Now that would be crazy. (not sarcasm)
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@rockchalkwyo You need to read the NOA, posted in the other thread going on. It is not based only on the payments themselves. You will see numerous allegations of KU being accused of knowing about but not reporting improper recruiting contacts by boosters, and not reporting equipment and apparel benefits for an amateur team being sought by and received by Larry Brown (also termed a booster).
The whole “coach responsibility” thing may come down to whether Adidas’s reps were KU boosters. Brown clearly was, IMO.
It is kind of circular: if recruiting for KU, they are boosters, but boosters are limited in how much contact they can have. KU’s defense will likely be that employees of athletic companies are obviously going to have contact with athletes and that any efforts to assist in recruiting were incidental to their jobs. As employees of another company, and since any discussions about schools were not exclusive to KU, they would not be subject to KU review, KU control, and KU-imposed job restrictions.
The NOA is clearly a shot across the bow by the NCAA signalling they want these back door relationships to stop. (Cynics would say, “to stay hidden”.) But how do amateur teams exist without company sponsors, and how do they expect colleges sponsored by these same companies to not have mutual contacts?
I said I wouldn’t do more comments, but after reading the NOA, I decided to put this out there since I haven’t seen this anywhere else.
And it is always interesting when the NCAA throws Brown into the mix!
Interestingly, the NOA lists KU’s entire history of BB and FB violations back to 1957 as aggravating factors. DP material?
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@mayjay Great thank you
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@nuleafjhawk Bingo! Sarcasm was intended, but I actually thought it’d be fun to see what happens if I write “Fire Self”! It was fun, but your football is manlier than basketball crap is true. Now if the players went back to wearing shorts that you know just extended below the buttocks like God intended them to, then basketball would be considered a manly sport again.
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@jhawk7782 For the first time in my life, I understand why coaches leave college basketball to …(cough…) coach… in the NBA.
I wouldn’t blame Self if he does.
Screw the NCAA.
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nuleafjhawk said:
@jhawk7782 For the first time in my life, I understand why coaches leave college basketball to …(cough…) coach… in the NBA.
I wouldn’t blame Self if he does.
Screw the NCAA.
Hes not gonna leave
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wissox said:
I always crack up at the everyone’s doing it excuse. That’s admitting guilt. When we’re at that stage, we deserve whatever the penalty is. I’m still miffed at this as I was thinking everything had been resolved.
“Everyone’s doing it” is not necessarily admitting guilt.
Sometimes, it’s shining a spotlight on a bad law or rule – as in one that is unenforceable, or out of touch with the times, and needs to be changed.
There are plenty of examples… the 55 mph speed limit (amended), Jim Crow laws (repealed) come to mind…
Anyway, I tend to be in the camp that believes this has been going on since the 60s and has become institutionalized by the shoe companies.
For those who ask-- where are the whistleblowers? I would say there have been plenty through the years. Some the NCAA investigates… others it does not (among its many displays of hypocrisy) It is rarely in anyone’s best interest to call it out, so it is usually from some disgruntled person.
Also, the money isn’t going to the student-athlete… at least, not directly. The money flows through the ecosystem of people surrounding the athlete… Relatives (not parents!), guardians, trainers and AAU coaches, etc. The distance from the players shields the player and the coaching staff and allows them to deny taking payments “truthfully”.
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@JAYHAWKFAN214 Like I said - first time in my life - but if you were a top flight college coach and had to be subjected to these BS (does not stand for Bill Self right here…) rules - WHY do it?
He could make just as much or more money, not have to deal with the commies and mommies.
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@nuleafjhawk ESPN’s talking heads are already predicting Self’s time at KU are nearing an end.
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@jhawk7782 SMH
Good thing this current NCAA NAZI Regime wasn’t around in the Larry Brown days. They’d have hung him in the town square.
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@bskeet From the '60s? Nothing has changed. Some choose to cheat even when it isn’t needed. Adolph Rupp was at it in the '20s.
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@jhawk7782 I was just going back to the Wooden era where there’s been pretty well-documented accounts of the payments… but I don’t dispute that it may have been going on more than 50 years ago.
All the more damning for the NCAA to have not found a way to build a system that was fair and enforceable. It’s a feckless institution that is out of step with the world.
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Cheating is a requirement for coaching basketball at Kentucky. Racism wasn’t far behind. Ask Adolph Rupp, Joe B Hall, Eddie Sutton, Rick Patino, and now Calipari.
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The NCAA is acting the part of the Robert Downey, jr. Character in Tropic Thunder.
“I know who I am!!! I’m the dude playing a dude, disguised as another dude!!”
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I’d say chances of Self sitting out a year are slim to none. If it comes down to that I’d bank on him retiring or being fired.
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kjayhawks said:
I’d say chances of Self sitting out a year are slim to none. If it comes down to that I’d bank on him retiring or being fired.
like I have said , this whole dam thing might just be the final straw that breaks the proverbial Camel’s back. - If that were to happen suspended for the year - - it might just be enough where he says - - Screw the NCAA - - Screw recruiting - -sick of it and Walk away , always heard how much of a toll recruiting takes on a person/family -could be if that were to happen he might just try and dabble in the NBA.
Like I said before , what does he have left to prove in the College level? - - - NCAA Champions ? - - - done that - - Big 12 Champion ? - -Done that multiple times. - - – College Hall of Fame ? - - - Done that
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I’ll admit my ignorance here. I have no idea what the NCAA’s reason for existence is. None. It seems to me as though it’s just to upset college fans and universities in all sports, but mostly basketball. I’m not being facetious, I’m really this dumb.
Why can’t we secede from the NCAA and play basketball without their approval?
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@nuleafjhawk But who would take all the post season tournament (new tourney of course) money if there is no NCAA? The schools?!? How absurd. Lol
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@nuleafjhawk Who would we play? The NCAA has effective control of all large college play due to the rule requiring all competition to be against NCAA-approved foes, even exhibitions.
Unless other schools were also willing to voluntarily dissociate themselves, we might be stuck trying to wrangle an entire slate of games, in dozens of sports, against national teams around the globe. Interesting idea, but hard to see how it would resemble what we like.
Maybe join the G league and get out of all other sports?
Theoretically, we could cut athletic department spending by some 95% and try to join the NAIA. Since their schools all together have about 60,000 in total enrollment, I doubt they would welcone a school our size.
I think the solution lies in fixing the NCAA. How? I will likely be dead before anyone can figure that out.
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@mayjay Maybe we could just join the " Y " ??
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mayjay said:
@nuleafjhawk Who would we play? The NCAA has effective control of all large college play due to the rule requiring all competition to be against NCAA-approved foes, even exhibitions.
Unless other schools were also willing to voluntarily dissociate themselves, we might be stuck trying to wrangle an entire slate of games, in dozens of sports, against national teams around the globe. Interesting idea, but hard to see how it would resemble what we like.
Maybe join the G league and get out of all other sports?
Theoretically, we could cut athletic department spending by some 95% and try to join the NAIA. Since their schools all together have about 60,000 in total enrollment, I doubt they would welcone a school our size.
I think the solution lies in fixing the NCAA. How? I will likely be dead before anyone can figure that out.
might not be as hard as you think - - I don’t really think that KU is the only school by far that would love to dis associate themselves from the NCAA totally.
I think that’s why you hear that the NCAA is actually the one walking on thin ice in the overall grand scheme of things - -a lot I mean a lot of schools not really very happy.
I think it might be easier to say what schools would want to stay WITH THE NCAA as opposed to who would want to leave - start a whole new association apart from the NCAA -oh sure schools like - - - Duke - - Kentucky - - North Carolina and a few other spoon fed darlings would want to stay with them but the bigger question would be - - who would they play - -I truly think if you were to take a vote - you would see that in reality that there are far more schools that would like to see the NCAA just go away then not.
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What gets fixed first? NCAA or social security? My money is on the retirement check.
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What Would Coach Marco say? That we’re not going to receive much of anything. Lack of institutional control is what Roy got slapped with at UNC if I’m not mistaken, and they basically got nothing out of it.
We are not getting much of anyone by way of recruits thus far, so the damage has already been done. I say just get it done and over with.
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nuleafjhawk said:
@JAYHAWKFAN214 Like I said - first time in my life - but if you were a top flight college coach and had to be subjected to these BS (does not stand for Bill Self right here…) rules - WHY do it?
He could make just as much or more money, not have to deal with the commies and mommies.
No, there he would just have to deal with malcontents and divas.
