If Bill Self were suspended for a year...
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I think the prior references miss my intended point completely. We all know of the big stories. Yea, I know about SMU and Reggie Bush.
But it does demonstrate my point. Discussing maybe one big story a decade? With one back to the 80s?
The constant drum beat is everyone is getting extra benefits. Yet there is nothing.
Where is the information? This is 2019. Info everywhere. Some kid has a video of money “appearing.” But with this topic, no one has spilled the beans.
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What always made me cringe is that the timeline of the allegations involves a final four. If you look at the history the NCAA always seems to ignore Champions(Wooden’s UCLA, Duke(Landon Thomas), etc.) but love to use the removal of final four banners(Fab5, Memphis St) as examples of being tough. Louisville in 2013 was so bad the NCAA couldn’t ignore that one. If I was betting I’d bet we lose the FF, some scholarships, and some games.
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@Crimsonorblue22 He ended up kicked out of Nebraska after a couple years. But no he didn’t get in any trouble for this.
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@HighEliteMajor every year it seems there’s impropriety happening and programs getting busted for infractions. If the problem is truly pervasive, then it stands to reason that the majority of programs don’t get busted when they are not under investigation because nobody surrounding the program has an interest in busting the program.
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When was the last time you called the police station and told them that a friend of yours had been speeding? Or that friends of yours were gambling on a sporting event at work? Or let them know that one of your friends gave their 20 year old son a beer when he was home from college? And if you did this what do you think the police station would say? Would they open up an investigation or would they laugh at you?
When was the last time you covertly recorded your friend doing any of these things and turned it into the police station?
I understand that corruption in a power 5 program is orders of magnitude different then these things, however my point is that it’s a matter of perception and whether anyone has an interest in busting the program, and to what lengths they would do so, considering they and those around them benefit from the success of the program.
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@approxinfinity Think about what we see - Folks hate the NCAA, folks hate coaches. Why? Because their perception is that the NCAA and coaches make way too much money and the players are slaves (or something akin to indentured servitude). While laughable, the vitriol from that perspective creates a much higher degree of motivation than your example or other examples closer in “magnitude” as you mentioned, that might be used as comparison. It’s a different animal. Folks are clamoring to change everything about the NCAA. They want to destroy the NCAA. Yet not a peep.
Further, kids get treated wrong by programs. Forced out. It happens. Not a word from their parents, their girlfriend, they roommate, or them. Yet not a peep.
We hear NBA guys talking about the unfairness of the NCAA, even guys like Lebron James that didn’t go to college. If they really wanted to tear down the NCAA, exposing the widespread corruption and rule-breaking would be the place to start. Get together a large group of NBA players to detail their “extra benefits”. Yet not a peep.
What did Appleton get, or Greene, or Tharpe, or McBride, or Peters, or White, or Adams, or any player that has left this program early for whatever reason? Or that has left UK, Duke, UNC, MSU, etc., for whatever reason? Any aggrieved soul. Yet not a peep.
Odd.
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@HighEliteMajor Snitches get stitches…LOL
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@HighEliteMajor have you ever put a review on Glassdoor? I have not. And thats anonymous (but people might recognize it to be me if I post). My policy to date about past employers is to let my frustrations go when I leave. I might return in some capacity, and I still know people working there. I dont want to burn bridges. It’s not worth it. For these people, like me, I’m assuming this is a business decision. Not worth turning over specific stones.
I don’t think that people outside the programs care one way or another about the NCAA.
Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are benefits on the way out as well. Certainly there are connections and influence.
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@approxinfinity I understand what you’re trying to suggest here. I’ve burned bridges when it’s worth it. And just as you suggest, stopped short when it’s not worth it.
What makes no sense for me is the scope we’re dealing with (numbers of players, programs, and those with knowledge) and the level of importance many place on their disdain for the NCAA (disdain – hatred is the better word).
Uncovering all this info could also be significantly financially beneficial to the person, or entity, that makes information public.
Regarding scope, there is just nothing from all of these supposed beneficiaries. To your point, there are reviews on Glassdoor, correct? Or other similar sites? Here, nothing.
You are making an assumption that “these people” include a large group of players, families, guardians, etc. But here’s what’s amazing to me … even if it’s just the top players, still silence?
You’ve now added the element of hush money (benefits on the way out) that creates a larger web and more culpability.
So player A gets $10,000 to come to KU. After two years, he’s pushed out. He’s done with CBB. So we pay him to be quiet.
The reality is, economically, he’d need more in hush money than his story is worth to make the deal worth it. So no kid has fished a story to SI, ESPN, etc., and they wouldn’t pay? No stories of a kids extorting a university?
Do you realize how many folks are required to keep this under wraps, meaning no posts on twitter, no stray text messages, etc.? It sounds utterly impossible.
Or amazing if true. Like, secrets kept on a scale never known, right? Jimmy the Bull talked. Where’s our Jimmy the Bull?
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Gotta be one guy, cliffs mom would!
or Prestons lovely lying mother!
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So Yahoo tells me “Major violations at KU” “Lack of institutional control”. So I click on the article and I see the same old stories. Preston, who never played for us obviously, and Silvio’s 2500 dollar story. That’s all they mentioned. Why does this crap keep coming up against us when it appears it’s been taken care of? I’ve never been one saying the NCAA is out to get us, but it sure makes me wonder now.
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So the NCAA is coming after KU for one player who never played…and another who’s already sat and won his appeal.
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ajvan said:
So the NCAA is coming after KU for one player who never played…and another who’s already sat and won his appeal.
It’s a bold strategy cotton, let’s see if it pays off.
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Yep… Tell me something new … other that the ncaa taking the “booster” route for Adidas. This will drag on an on. KU will throw an army of lawyers at the NCAA to see how much fight they have in them to take on an elite program.
Now comes the recruiting fun… Self said he was energized, well now he’s got his work cut out for him, and I think he relishes this. Much much less coddling and competing for OAD’s for a while, now he’s going to beat the bushes and get creative.
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Bosthawk said:
Yep… Tell me something new … other that the ncaa taking the “booster” route for Adidas. This will drag on an on. KU will throw an army of lawyers at the NCAA to see how much fight they have in them to take on an elite program.
Now comes the recruiting fun… Self said he was energized, well now he’s got his work cut out for him, and I think he relishes this. Much much less coddling and competing for OAD’s for a while, now he’s going to beat the bushes and get creative.
Time for some JUCOs and projects.
I like the response from Self, Long and KU in general a lot.
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Can’t imagine how pissed off they are being made the example…after previously being the example for NCAA compliance.
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@wissox Nothing was ever over or taken care of. Gassnola/Adidas paid Preston to come to KU. Gassnola/Adidas paid DeSousa. DeSousa was ineligible and suspended for one season. We played DeSousa when he was ineligible. And Self and Gassnola were texting like middle school classmates about how Adidas was locking up recruits for us.
@ajvan There were major recruiting violations. While it helps that we didn’t play Preston, he was still paid to come to KU. And DeSousa did play of course. He didn’t win his appeal. He was still found to be worthy of a one year suspension. He had his guilty sentence reduced, that’s all.
@BShark I personally think the responses border on idiocy. Just like Self’s statement last October. Just like Self’s statement regarding DeSousa’s punishment. Just like our AD’s prior statements. There are times to be prudent. To choose your words carefully. This crew, well, doesn’t do that. Being aggressive with responsive statements triggers “likes” from those that are upset with the NCAA, but the question is whether it serves your ultimate purpose. We can see where our strategy on this has gotten us so far.
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Bowing to the ncaa gets you nothing.
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We’ve known for a long time they had more than we probably knew about. 2 year sentence for desouza to begin with should have made it obvious enough. Shortening to one year… Probably just as obvious. Clearly not over a measly $2500.
To the university, the chancellor, the AD, and to coach self. You wanna take that stance? Great! Now you better back it up. Cause this is ugly. Ugly ugly business. Probably a black eye no matter the result. But I have very lil hope that your aggressive stance is going to bear fruit. So, as has been suggested before. Burn it all to the ground and stand on the pile of ashes. It’s really about the only way now.
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@HighEliteMajor the prior statements… Myself and my staff do not and have not engaged in providing impermissible benefits… Yada yada… Smh. “I did not engage in sexual relations with that woman”…
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Fire Self.
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@Bshark Rewind to last October. Try acknowledgement, contrition, commitment to transparency. A full investigation. An in house report. All done without making specific admissions, but noting that issues are pervasive in CBB and we are part of that. The thing is, we KNEW we were guilty then and so did Self, Long, et. al. I just want the embarrassing statements to stop.
@cragarhawk Agreed. Burn it down. Do we have more here that agree now? If we’re getting targeted, then we have a DUTY to clean things up like the NCAA wants, right? The more transparent the better. We need to have the DOSSIER ready.
Bill Self, Oct 23, 2018: “As the leader of the Kansas men’s basketball program, I take pride in my role to operate with integrity and within the NCAA rules, which is a fundamental responsibility of being the head basketball coach.”
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Bshark Rewind to last October. Try acknowledgement, contrition, commitment to transparency. A full investigation. An in house report. All done without making admissions and noting that issues are pervasive in CBB. I just want the embarrassing statements to stop.
@cragarhawk Agreed. Burn it down. Do we have more that agree? If we’re getting targeted, then we have a DUTY to clean things up like the NCAA wants, right? The more transparent the better. We need to have the DOSSIER ready.
Bill Self, Oct 23, 2018: “As the leader of the Kansas men’s basketball program, I take pride in my role to operate with integrity and within the NCAA rules, which is a fundamental responsibility of being the head basketball coach.”
Yeah… the NCAA wouldn’t accept an in-house investigation. We’re not dook. Like you’ve said repeatedly, the NCAA can basically do what it wants. Why not take this to the court of public opinion and then the court of law if need be? There’s not an aggravating factor in the NCAA rulebook about saying mean things about them. They’re adults. We’re adults. This is the game we play.
After this is over, things will return to normal. Just look at USC football. Got busted, then things went right back to where they were re: recruiting. Cleaning up (following every rule to the letter) means we won’t be competitive. Full stop.
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wissox said:
Fire Self.
No.
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@wissox without complete and total vindication from the NCAA or the demise of the NCAA I’d find it very hard to believe he won’t be gone anyway one way or another honestly
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cragarhawk said:
@wissox without complete and total vindication from the NCAA or the demise of the NCAA I’d find it very hard to believe he won’t be gone anyway one way or another honestly
You can believe that, but Boeheim at Cuse got like half a season and last I checked, he’s still there. Will Wade, still there. DePaul coach, still there.
Everyone I’ve talked to says Self is angry at this. Mad the NCAA is scapegoating KU when he knows everyone else does the same, or worse. He’s going to coach his ass off. KU will not accept a postseason ban. Period. They’ll exhaust every remedy they have to avoid it. They will live with a minor suspension for Self (under 10 games), Townsend taking a retirement, and play with 12 scholarships for a couple years. Anything more they’ll fight tooth and nail.
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Well, I firmly believe that KU is bigger than Syracuse, LSU, and DePaul… There’s only so much embarrassment they will take. I could be wrong. We shall see.
I do continue to love the whole everyone is doing it now that we know we’re doing it narrative though. Removes some of the stain…
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@wissox Umm hard no and no again.
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It’s been my position for years (backed up by many sources) that everyone is doing it. It’s the people who are just now seeing it who’ve had their heads in the sand.
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Sources? I’m with @HighEliteMajor on this one too. It’s miraculous that these “sources” are so quiet. Especially in this era where everyone wants something for nothing… Scorned girlfriend, pissed off sibling, pissed off teammate, pissed off transfer, fired coach, basically any player that washed out of pro ball and wants his 15 min of Fame. All the programs, all of them doing it… And yet so few whistle blowers. It’s unfathomable. There’s literally been more ppl step forward saying our president grabbed their puss 20 years after the fact than there are legitimate “sources” that everyone is doing this
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I think everyone is overreacting with such huge disgust and hysterical comments about tearing down the NCAA. Fat chance. This was inevitable after the court case evidence and the SDS ineligibility findings. And any public statements would likely not have made a whit of difference then or now.
For crying out loud, let it all play out. KU still gets to respond. This is the NCAA indictment stage. No reason to set the self (or Self) destruct mechanism in motion yet. Punishments will be determined later.
And, if anyone wants to abandon ship, no one can blame you. I still might, too, but if so it will be based on what is known and what is proven, not what is rumored, so it will be awhile.
That likely will let me focus on enjoying watching this team play for this year. I have always wanted to be able to watch basketball with fewer distractions anyway.
My last comment on this whole mess until it is resolved. BB is wonderful but I am too old to get that emotionally worked up about things I cannot control.
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cragarhawk said:
Sources? I’m with @HighEliteMajor on this one too. It’s miraculous that these “sources” are so quiet. Especially in this era where everyone wants something for nothing… Scorned girlfriend, pissed off sibling, pissed off teammate, pissed off transfer, fired coach, basically any player that washed out of pro ball and wants his 15 min of Fame. All the programs, all of them doing it… And yet so few whistle blowers. It’s unfathomable. There’s literally been more ppl step forward saying our president grabbed their puss 20 years after the fact than there are legitimate “sources” that everyone is doing this
Believe me or not, but I’ve had many conversations with people in this business who know how it works. It’s a matter of gaining people’s trust over time. You can ask people like Ryan Noel, Matt Scott, Andrew Slater, and on down the line about how many players get paid. Their answers will be the same: almost all of them. I can’t get into a lot of specifics on a public board for risk of burning people, but it’s not just pervasive, it’s the norm.
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I hope they don’t take away Silvio’s eligibility again.
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@jhawk7782 won’t be settled til after he’s gone
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KU played an eligible player found ineligible after. Not that it matters one way or the other. KU would have still been charged regardless of playing said player
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I always crack up at the everyone’s doing it excuse. That’s admitting guilt. When we’re at that stage, we deserve whatever the penalty is. I’m still miffed at this as I was thinking everything had been resolved.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
cragarhawk said:
Sources? I’m with @HighEliteMajor on this one too. It’s miraculous that these “sources” are so quiet. Especially in this era where everyone wants something for nothing… Scorned girlfriend, pissed off sibling, pissed off teammate, pissed off transfer, fired coach, basically any player that washed out of pro ball and wants his 15 min of Fame. All the programs, all of them doing it… And yet so few whistle blowers. It’s unfathomable. There’s literally been more ppl step forward saying our president grabbed their puss 20 years after the fact than there are legitimate “sources” that everyone is doing this
Believe me or not, but I’ve had many conversations with people in this business who know how it works. It’s a matter of gaining people’s trust over time. You can ask people like Ryan Noel, Matt Scott, Andrew Slater, and on down the line about how many players get paid. Their answers will be the same: almost all of them. I can’t get into a lot of specifics on a public board for risk of burning people, but it’s not just pervasive, it’s the norm.
Then the press is not doing their jobs. Not those guys, they’re recruiting guys. But if they “know”, then Jesse Newell knows, Gary Bedore knows, Matt Tait knows. Where are they?
Until then, until there is real information flowing, it’s just conjecture.
But of course, you know what you’re saying – if it is “pervasive” and it is the “norm”, then Bill Self is flat out lying.
And to your comments further above regarding and internal investigation and report – that can help avoid the “lack of institutional control” element. This can help mitigate the damage. Obviously there is no aggravating factor for saying “mean” things. But when you’re dealing with human beings, pettiness, you name it, massaging things like this initially vs. name calling, insults, and lies would perhaps offer a better path.
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mayjay said:
I think everyone is overreacting with such huge disgust and hysterical comments about tearing down the NCAA. Fat chance. This was inevitable after the court case evidence and the SDS ineligibility findings. And any public statements would likely not have made a whit of difference then or now.
For crying out loud, let it all play out. KU still gets to respond. This is the NCAA indictment stage. No reason to set the self (or Self) destruct mechanism in motion yet. Punishments will be determined later.
And, if anyone wants to abandon ship, no one can blame you. I still might, too, but if so it will be based on what is known and what is proven, not what is rumored, so it will be awhile.
That likely will let me focus on enjoying watching this team play for this year. I have always wanted to be able to watch basketball with fewer distractions anyway.
My last comment on this whole mess until it is resolved. BB is wonderful but I am too old to get that emotionally worked up about things I cannot control.
I can tell you that my “burn it down” suggestion, which I offered up after this came to head last October, has nothing to do with “tearing down the NCAA.” It is about building it up.
To threaten to expose the massive wrongdoing of the CBB masses is based on self-preservation, first and foremost. But it also would have the effect of forcing CBB in to a different phase. That the rules actually matter. If info was made public regarding the demands for compensation, the deals known to KU that were made, the extra benefits, where this parent is living and how they paid for the house, etc., that would cut across all of CBB. We’d be in a sea of wrongdoing, not a small little pond with our head sticking up. It would force the NCAA to consider that all of it’s major programs would be getting penalties. Thus what kind of precedent would they want to set with KU? And, very importantly, what changes would that force?
And if this is so “pervasive” as everyone seems to think, then it would not be a large task. If it’s so pervasive, then Bill Self is a flat out liar. Not just kind of a liar, but a full blown, worst type of liar - the indignant liar. All of this has disturbing implications no matter which way you go.
The “burn it down” suggestion is just a defensive posture, it’s leverage, it’s a negotiating tactic and would be a real threat to the NCAA and other schools if we are to be singled-out, which seems to be the case. Again, if this is “pervasive”, then there must be a wealth of information.
But what do I know?
Also, to make everyone’s day, it’s the lead story right now at espn.com. And we complain about Duke getting all the headlines.
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@wissox “Fire Self”
Better yet - 86 the basketball program and put our heart and soul into football. A man’s sport.
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Wow. Just wow. What is happening in this thread??! Do people not think KU did not know this was coming for sometime now. They have been working on this for months. Nothing that came from the NCAA yesterday was a surprise. This will be fought to the very end, and personally there will be some penalties, but it is not going to be anything major.
@cragarhawk Is you opinion really that this doesn’t happen everywhere?
Also, can we please stop with the “fire Self” BS. Good grief.
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@Woodrow ya it might be. But there’s still some unanswered questions if that’s the case. Like why not play Preston anyway then? Cliff Alexander? Etc
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Ok guys and gals, help me out please. I thought that the trials in November proved that Self and KU had no knowledge of Adidas’ shenanigans. In fact it proved that there was “a conspiracy to defraud them”.
Here’s a quote from Tompsett and Sullivan in their response. “After a comprehensive FBI investigation, in which KU cooperated fully, federal prosecutors determined that both KU and its athletic department had been subject to a criminal conspiracy to defraud them. After several weeks of trial last year, the federal jury agreed finding that KU and its employees were unaware that the defendants’ illicit payments compromised the eligibility of certain student-athletes.”
I get that a rule was broken, so therefore the NCAA just sends out a NOA to the university whether it was their fault or not. However, how can they punish us hard when there was a case of no wrong doing on KU’s part? Is it judiciary rulings vrs institutional rules?
I apologize for the ignorance here, but I’m just a little confused as to what leg the NCAA has to stand on when we fight back. Thanks
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@rockchalkwyo The we make our own rules leg.
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@HighEliteMajor Read an interesting article from Sports Illustrated that breaks down the NCAA hatchet job on KU and Coach Self.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2019/09/23/bill-self-kansas-jayhawks-ncaa-allegations-fbi
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@Woodrow My remarks are sarcasm. I can only assume the “fire Self” comment was too.
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@nuleafjhawk I know yours were, but I do not think some of the others were. I actually think some people / fans want Self fired.
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@Woodrow Now that would be crazy. (not sarcasm)
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@rockchalkwyo You need to read the NOA, posted in the other thread going on. It is not based only on the payments themselves. You will see numerous allegations of KU being accused of knowing about but not reporting improper recruiting contacts by boosters, and not reporting equipment and apparel benefits for an amateur team being sought by and received by Larry Brown (also termed a booster).
The whole “coach responsibility” thing may come down to whether Adidas’s reps were KU boosters. Brown clearly was, IMO.
It is kind of circular: if recruiting for KU, they are boosters, but boosters are limited in how much contact they can have. KU’s defense will likely be that employees of athletic companies are obviously going to have contact with athletes and that any efforts to assist in recruiting were incidental to their jobs. As employees of another company, and since any discussions about schools were not exclusive to KU, they would not be subject to KU review, KU control, and KU-imposed job restrictions.
The NOA is clearly a shot across the bow by the NCAA signalling they want these back door relationships to stop. (Cynics would say, “to stay hidden”.) But how do amateur teams exist without company sponsors, and how do they expect colleges sponsored by these same companies to not have mutual contacts?
I said I wouldn’t do more comments, but after reading the NOA, I decided to put this out there since I haven’t seen this anywhere else.
And it is always interesting when the NCAA throws Brown into the mix!
Interestingly, the NOA lists KU’s entire history of BB and FB violations back to 1957 as aggravating factors. DP material?
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@mayjay Great thank you
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@nuleafjhawk Bingo! Sarcasm was intended, but I actually thought it’d be fun to see what happens if I write “Fire Self”! It was fun, but your football is manlier than basketball crap is true. Now if the players went back to wearing shorts that you know just extended below the buttocks like God intended them to, then basketball would be considered a manly sport again.
