If Bill Self were suspended for a year...
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@approxinfinity I don’t know about the coach suspension. That is usually based on something program related, internal. All of these issues (that we know of) are related to third party action that we relied upon to benefit our program. Of course, Bill Self said very famously, “When recruiting prospective student athletes, my staff and I have not and do not offer improper inducements to them or their families to influence their college decisions, nor are we aware of any third-party involvement to do so."
I said at the time that Self’s comment about third parties was very unwise. He should never have said that, true or untrue. When a coach makes such a definitive statement, and if there is evidence in the NCAA’s hands that suggests he lied, it might make things a bit more difficult. It creates a bit of a bulls-eye with its audacity, given the info we know. In fact, of course, the concept that Adidas provided benefits and our coach was unaware of that general fact is asinine. I understand that he might not get the detail, but the concept of benefits and that they are taking action to help us get recruits that way is a different story.
My view continues to be that we end up losing the FF, vacating wins (which impacts the Big 12 title for 2017-18), and missing the NCAA tourney for a season. If I had bet on an outcome, that would be my lead scenario. A lot of options including scholarships, missing an additional tournament, or a coach (or coaches) getting suspended.
The facts are easy (despite protests by some that there is no evidence). Preston got paid by Adidas. DeSousa got paid by Adidas and UA. KU played DeSousa, who was found to be ineligible and ultimately suspended for a full season. Self and KU relied upon Adidas for recruiting assistance and Adidas reported directly to Self on progress. Adidas (or TJ Gassnola individually) fits squarely under the definition of a booster in the NCAA rules. The NCAA is keenly focused of the importance of that consideration as they made us stipulate to Adidas as a booster as part of the DeSousa review.
This is not minor. It’s serious. Always has been.
And it can get worse. I said way back when this broke that there is a significant possibility that this all leads to Bill Self leaving KU. I know that was met with a bit of a negative response. But this is real. Bill Self has one coaching career. And this remains a huge risk as we move forward. I appreciate Self’s comments about commitment to KU, but again, he has one career, he’s been here deep into a second decade here. It’s a major risk. This sort of upset creates conflict and issues where an AD, or Chancellor, can get cross-wise with Self on any number of issues, including candor. It’s how things can go south.
The shine is off Bill Self’s star for me. I think he lied when he made that statement back on October 24, 2018. I guess I can live with that. I wouldn’t disown my brother for a lie. But I am disappointed and I don’t look at him the same way. He could have take a much more measured and contrite approach related to what has happened with his program. I hope we can all, as a program, university, and fans, get through this with our great program intact.
I expect Bill Self to LEAD us out of this. Just like he’s led us into it. But I expect him to do it with honest and integrity. Not the stumbling and embarrassing denials of October 24, 2018. Bill Self can turn this around. He really is the right guy to do it. But it starts with him.
From a purely “defend what we have” perspective, and the injustice of others not getting punished when the recruiting game and shoeco involvement is an obvious fact, I’ve advocated the “burn it down” approach if we are to get slammed. Screw the NCAA. We should warn the NCAA. If they hammer us, we will ensure that information on what has gone on with multiple recruits, from Zion, to Anthony Davis, to Justin Jackson will be exposed. What other schools or shoecos offered or provided. If we knew what Zion wanted, per Townsend, we know what Zion (and others) got. Or, perhaps, they could come down a little lighter on us. Just my thoughts. This can go hand in hand with honesty from our program and coach.
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I hear some talk that josh Jackson’s recruitment might be included.
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Marcus Garrett is the best defender in the B12 and a top 5 defensive guard nationally. His offensive game may not be anything special, although he is an above average driver, he doesn’t have to be a great offensive player because of how elite his defense is.
Agbaji’s health is a legitimate question mark. Because of the type of injury it was (shins), it’s not out of the question that it’s going to be a chronic issue and rob everyone of seeing him reach his full potential just like we never got to see Wayne Selden reach his full potential because of his knees.
This team has flaws and they’re the same flaws as last year. KU doesn’t have a ready to go back up PG other than Garrett. This team still isn’t going to be good at shooting 3’s. Doke’s health will also always be a question mark because of the freak injuries and games he missed his one “healthy” year.
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I dont think there is any scenario KU accepts a post season ban. Not happening.
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BeddieKU23 said:
I dont think there is any scenario KU accepts a post season ban. Not happening.
Vacate 2-3 seasons and move on would be ideal.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Where did you hear the JJ recruiting is part of this? That would not be good.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Crimsonorblue22 Where did you hear the JJ recruiting is part of this? That would not be good.
Preston imo.
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@HighEliteMajor just a friend
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@HighEliteMajor I think Self had played his hand the way he had because this is bigger than him. If he admits too much, NCAA sinks their teeth into the program immediately. Sure, if we get hammered anyway, we can say with 20/20 hindsight that integrity would have been the best policy but, as the apologists have (imo rightfully) said, there is a systemic problem that won’t be solved by us admitting past mistakes and getting killed for it. It just means that we lose while those who get away with it profit. And as long as the NCAA has reason to perpetuate this charade we get no closer to fixing the system.
I wish I could agree on your second point, that once we get hammered if we do, we should show where all the bodies for other programs were buried, but what does this say to future recruits except don’t trust Kansas at all? The climate won’t be any different, we will still be hearing about other programs transgressions from recruits that no doubt expect and value a level of confidentiality with our recruiters.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I dont think there is any scenario KU accepts a post season ban. Not happening.
Vacate 2-3 seasons and move on would be ideal.
I have a white out pen if we need
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Very very well stated. I’m in full agreement. And yes the star on CS is tarnished… Sadly. In fact, i would go as far as to say that “burning it down” is the only way he can regain the shine. Those that have the opinion that Self was doing what he had to do to keep this program competitive in an across the board dirty landscape which requires such dealings may be indeed correct. If so, then I say the man should expose that to the world. That may be only way to regain the integrity for himself and for KU.
Personally I don’t think Self stays and “leads us out of this” if he is suspended for a season. And… Chastise as you will, I’m not sure I’d even want him to.
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This is why the NCAA needs to modify their rules. Everyone knows rules are being broken and the NCAA either can’t or won’t enforce their rules across the board.
When an organization isn’t capable of enforcing their own rules, they have to find a way to be able to enforce their rules, or they need to change their rules to something they can enforce.
We know Coach K and Duke has paid players going back to at least Corey Maggette.
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I guess it’s not cheating unless you get caught
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Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
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drgnslayr said:
Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
doubt it
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drgnslayr said:
Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
What if I told you almost every player (think top 300) gets extra benefits to go to a school? Shoot, I even know guys who played D2 football who got cash on their visits.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
drgnslayr said:
Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
What if I told you almost every player (think top 300) gets extra benefits to go to a school? Shoot, I even know guys who played D2 football who got cash on their visits.
Kstate players have nice cars due to their winning smile and hard work bro.
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BShark said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
drgnslayr said:
Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
What if I told you almost every player (think top 300) gets extra benefits to go to a school? Shoot, I even know guys who played D2 football who got cash on their visits.
Kstate players have nice cars due to their winning smile and hard work bro.
I don’t remember if I’ve told this story here but back in the day, my sister was Rodney McGruder’s and Jordan Henriquez-Roberts’s neighbor in Manhattan. Rodney drive a very nice Ford pickup with custom rims. At least a $40k pickup. Always thought it was odd.
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BShark said:
Kstate players have nice cars due to their winning smile and hard work bro.
Yes! About 10 years ago I lived in Manhattan, and worked at Kstate on their irrigation systems. One of the buildings I would check at least every other day was the Bill Snyder building. That’s where they would meet and watch film. I couldn’t help but notice 3 brand new Chevy Avalanches painted in florescent paint. A orange, blue, and purple. I acted like I was fixing a sprinkler to see if I could see who they belonged to and it turned out to be 3 receivers. Their names I now forgot but there’s no way that they could have got those on their own.
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rockchalkwyo said:
BShark said:
Kstate players have nice cars due to their winning smile and hard work bro.
Yes! About 10 years ago I lived in Manhattan, and worked at Kstate on their irrigation systems. One of the buildings I would check at least every other day was the Bill Snyder building. That’s where they would meet and watch film. I couldn’t help but notice 3 brand new Chevy Avalanches painted in florescent paint. A orange, blue, and purple. I acted like I was fixing a sprinkler to see if I could see who they belonged to and it turned out to be 3 receivers. Their names I now forgot but there’s no way that they could have got those on their own.
Lolz. Shocks me exactly zero.
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I always come back to this … where is the book, the 60 minutes or outside the lines special, etc., that details even some of the extra benefits? The coach talking in the shadows with his voice altered? The former shoeco rep? Some players’ family members? Former mafia members talk more that these folks.
I think a lot of this is urban legend stuff based on assumptions.
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@HighEliteMajor
these guys?
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Hell, I’ve heard of a guy hiding a drive by gun for a juco running back who later played at Nebraska. It’s not just money they’re given, they can damn near get away with murder.
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@dylans did he end up in prison?
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HighEliteMajor said:
I always come back to this … where is the book, the 60 minutes or outside the lines special, etc., that details even some of the extra benefits? The coach talking in the shadows with his voice altered? The former shoeco rep? Some players’ family members? Former mafia members talk more that these folks.
I think a lot of this is urban legend stuff based on assumptions.
Nah. Just nobody cares about a few hundred here, a few hundred there. It’s a well-known fact in the industry UNLV left casino chips in recruits hotel rooms. People who cover this stuff know it, like Andrew Slater (who’s now doing mostly private work for pro clubs), our old friend Matt Scott, and the like. ESPN did a whole 30 for 30 on the old Pony Express. I’d say it’s quite naive to think after SMU got caught everyone just… stopped.
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@HighEliteMajor There’s multiple 30 for 30’s out there that detail the downfall of programs. Three right off the top of my head are on SMU (Pony Express era), Miami (The U, 80’s and 00’s), and there’s one on USC a d the Reggie Bush era I believe.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@HighEliteMajor There’s multiple 30 for 30’s out there that detail the downfall of programs. Three right off the top of my head are on SMU (Pony Express era), Miami (The U, 80’s and 00’s), and there’s one on USC a d the Reggie Bush era I believe.
SI did a big story on the DC Assault AAU program years ago as well. The founder always maintained players never got paid but people in the know around Dalonte Hill and KSU at the time either had no comment or had some variation of “use your brain, dude. Mike Beasley didn’t come to Manhattan for the view.”
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dylans said:
@approxinfinity Take solace, this team is overrated. The flaws will show up by conference season. The lack of elite talent at the 2/3 will be their March downfall. Villanova wiped out the best KU teams of the decade.
And Villanova has fared a lot worse than KU over the Jay Wright era which is fairly close to Self’s time at KU.
I wonder if KU fans would have been happy w/3 NITs in Wrights first 3 seasons, or a losing season in 2011/12. not sure how KU’s fan base would have acted after Wright suffered 7 second-round upsets (including the years right after winning the NCAA title).
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I think the prior references miss my intended point completely. We all know of the big stories. Yea, I know about SMU and Reggie Bush.
But it does demonstrate my point. Discussing maybe one big story a decade? With one back to the 80s?
The constant drum beat is everyone is getting extra benefits. Yet there is nothing.
Where is the information? This is 2019. Info everywhere. Some kid has a video of money “appearing.” But with this topic, no one has spilled the beans.
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What always made me cringe is that the timeline of the allegations involves a final four. If you look at the history the NCAA always seems to ignore Champions(Wooden’s UCLA, Duke(Landon Thomas), etc.) but love to use the removal of final four banners(Fab5, Memphis St) as examples of being tough. Louisville in 2013 was so bad the NCAA couldn’t ignore that one. If I was betting I’d bet we lose the FF, some scholarships, and some games.
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@Crimsonorblue22 He ended up kicked out of Nebraska after a couple years. But no he didn’t get in any trouble for this.
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@HighEliteMajor every year it seems there’s impropriety happening and programs getting busted for infractions. If the problem is truly pervasive, then it stands to reason that the majority of programs don’t get busted when they are not under investigation because nobody surrounding the program has an interest in busting the program.
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When was the last time you called the police station and told them that a friend of yours had been speeding? Or that friends of yours were gambling on a sporting event at work? Or let them know that one of your friends gave their 20 year old son a beer when he was home from college? And if you did this what do you think the police station would say? Would they open up an investigation or would they laugh at you?
When was the last time you covertly recorded your friend doing any of these things and turned it into the police station?
I understand that corruption in a power 5 program is orders of magnitude different then these things, however my point is that it’s a matter of perception and whether anyone has an interest in busting the program, and to what lengths they would do so, considering they and those around them benefit from the success of the program.
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@approxinfinity Think about what we see - Folks hate the NCAA, folks hate coaches. Why? Because their perception is that the NCAA and coaches make way too much money and the players are slaves (or something akin to indentured servitude). While laughable, the vitriol from that perspective creates a much higher degree of motivation than your example or other examples closer in “magnitude” as you mentioned, that might be used as comparison. It’s a different animal. Folks are clamoring to change everything about the NCAA. They want to destroy the NCAA. Yet not a peep.
Further, kids get treated wrong by programs. Forced out. It happens. Not a word from their parents, their girlfriend, they roommate, or them. Yet not a peep.
We hear NBA guys talking about the unfairness of the NCAA, even guys like Lebron James that didn’t go to college. If they really wanted to tear down the NCAA, exposing the widespread corruption and rule-breaking would be the place to start. Get together a large group of NBA players to detail their “extra benefits”. Yet not a peep.
What did Appleton get, or Greene, or Tharpe, or McBride, or Peters, or White, or Adams, or any player that has left this program early for whatever reason? Or that has left UK, Duke, UNC, MSU, etc., for whatever reason? Any aggrieved soul. Yet not a peep.
Odd.
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@HighEliteMajor Snitches get stitches…LOL
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@HighEliteMajor have you ever put a review on Glassdoor? I have not. And thats anonymous (but people might recognize it to be me if I post). My policy to date about past employers is to let my frustrations go when I leave. I might return in some capacity, and I still know people working there. I dont want to burn bridges. It’s not worth it. For these people, like me, I’m assuming this is a business decision. Not worth turning over specific stones.
I don’t think that people outside the programs care one way or another about the NCAA.
Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are benefits on the way out as well. Certainly there are connections and influence.
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@approxinfinity I understand what you’re trying to suggest here. I’ve burned bridges when it’s worth it. And just as you suggest, stopped short when it’s not worth it.
What makes no sense for me is the scope we’re dealing with (numbers of players, programs, and those with knowledge) and the level of importance many place on their disdain for the NCAA (disdain – hatred is the better word).
Uncovering all this info could also be significantly financially beneficial to the person, or entity, that makes information public.
Regarding scope, there is just nothing from all of these supposed beneficiaries. To your point, there are reviews on Glassdoor, correct? Or other similar sites? Here, nothing.
You are making an assumption that “these people” include a large group of players, families, guardians, etc. But here’s what’s amazing to me … even if it’s just the top players, still silence?
You’ve now added the element of hush money (benefits on the way out) that creates a larger web and more culpability.
So player A gets $10,000 to come to KU. After two years, he’s pushed out. He’s done with CBB. So we pay him to be quiet.
The reality is, economically, he’d need more in hush money than his story is worth to make the deal worth it. So no kid has fished a story to SI, ESPN, etc., and they wouldn’t pay? No stories of a kids extorting a university?
Do you realize how many folks are required to keep this under wraps, meaning no posts on twitter, no stray text messages, etc.? It sounds utterly impossible.
Or amazing if true. Like, secrets kept on a scale never known, right? Jimmy the Bull talked. Where’s our Jimmy the Bull?
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Gotta be one guy, cliffs mom would!
or Prestons lovely lying mother!
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So Yahoo tells me “Major violations at KU” “Lack of institutional control”. So I click on the article and I see the same old stories. Preston, who never played for us obviously, and Silvio’s 2500 dollar story. That’s all they mentioned. Why does this crap keep coming up against us when it appears it’s been taken care of? I’ve never been one saying the NCAA is out to get us, but it sure makes me wonder now.
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So the NCAA is coming after KU for one player who never played…and another who’s already sat and won his appeal.
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ajvan said:
So the NCAA is coming after KU for one player who never played…and another who’s already sat and won his appeal.
It’s a bold strategy cotton, let’s see if it pays off.
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Yep… Tell me something new … other that the ncaa taking the “booster” route for Adidas. This will drag on an on. KU will throw an army of lawyers at the NCAA to see how much fight they have in them to take on an elite program.
Now comes the recruiting fun… Self said he was energized, well now he’s got his work cut out for him, and I think he relishes this. Much much less coddling and competing for OAD’s for a while, now he’s going to beat the bushes and get creative.
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Bosthawk said:
Yep… Tell me something new … other that the ncaa taking the “booster” route for Adidas. This will drag on an on. KU will throw an army of lawyers at the NCAA to see how much fight they have in them to take on an elite program.
Now comes the recruiting fun… Self said he was energized, well now he’s got his work cut out for him, and I think he relishes this. Much much less coddling and competing for OAD’s for a while, now he’s going to beat the bushes and get creative.
Time for some JUCOs and projects.
I like the response from Self, Long and KU in general a lot.
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Can’t imagine how pissed off they are being made the example…after previously being the example for NCAA compliance.
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@wissox Nothing was ever over or taken care of. Gassnola/Adidas paid Preston to come to KU. Gassnola/Adidas paid DeSousa. DeSousa was ineligible and suspended for one season. We played DeSousa when he was ineligible. And Self and Gassnola were texting like middle school classmates about how Adidas was locking up recruits for us.
@ajvan There were major recruiting violations. While it helps that we didn’t play Preston, he was still paid to come to KU. And DeSousa did play of course. He didn’t win his appeal. He was still found to be worthy of a one year suspension. He had his guilty sentence reduced, that’s all.
@BShark I personally think the responses border on idiocy. Just like Self’s statement last October. Just like Self’s statement regarding DeSousa’s punishment. Just like our AD’s prior statements. There are times to be prudent. To choose your words carefully. This crew, well, doesn’t do that. Being aggressive with responsive statements triggers “likes” from those that are upset with the NCAA, but the question is whether it serves your ultimate purpose. We can see where our strategy on this has gotten us so far.
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Bowing to the ncaa gets you nothing.
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We’ve known for a long time they had more than we probably knew about. 2 year sentence for desouza to begin with should have made it obvious enough. Shortening to one year… Probably just as obvious. Clearly not over a measly $2500.
To the university, the chancellor, the AD, and to coach self. You wanna take that stance? Great! Now you better back it up. Cause this is ugly. Ugly ugly business. Probably a black eye no matter the result. But I have very lil hope that your aggressive stance is going to bear fruit. So, as has been suggested before. Burn it all to the ground and stand on the pile of ashes. It’s really about the only way now.
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@HighEliteMajor the prior statements… Myself and my staff do not and have not engaged in providing impermissible benefits… Yada yada… Smh. “I did not engage in sexual relations with that woman”…
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Fire Self.
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@Bshark Rewind to last October. Try acknowledgement, contrition, commitment to transparency. A full investigation. An in house report. All done without making specific admissions, but noting that issues are pervasive in CBB and we are part of that. The thing is, we KNEW we were guilty then and so did Self, Long, et. al. I just want the embarrassing statements to stop.
@cragarhawk Agreed. Burn it down. Do we have more here that agree now? If we’re getting targeted, then we have a DUTY to clean things up like the NCAA wants, right? The more transparent the better. We need to have the DOSSIER ready.
Bill Self, Oct 23, 2018: “As the leader of the Kansas men’s basketball program, I take pride in my role to operate with integrity and within the NCAA rules, which is a fundamental responsibility of being the head basketball coach.”
