Please recruit players that are capable of being good at everything
-
dylans said:
Self protects the paint, because teams that pack the paint against KU win. The 2018-19 KU team could have all the open threes in the world; they’d still miss.
Another old quote of Bill’s when asked what he looks for in a recruit - shooters. First and foresmost he looks for shooters. Hard to explain Garrett, but Bill prefers shooters out of HS and to teach the rest. Maybe that’s why Bill likes Garrett, all Self has to teach Marcus is how to shoot and he can lead by example on how to do the rest.
I’m saying Self needs to change his focus on offense, I’m saying he needs to change his philosophy on defense because his philosophy of denying the paint plays into what most teams already want to do which is shoot from deep. A lot of screens and picks teams run now are to get open looks from 3, not to get into the paint. When teams do get into the paint, they’re usually hoping the defense will collapse and leave someone open from 3.
A lot of this philosophical change can be attributed to the defensive rules changes a few years ago limiting the physicality of defenses and Steph Curry.
Steph Curry entered the NBA with one elite skill and that was shooting. Players see his size and realize they could do the same thing because nobody else is LeBron because of LeBron’s size. LeBron is a one of a kind player. Steph Curry is a 6 foot guard who can make a shot from anywhere on his side of the court. That’s replicable and kids growing up are mimicking Curry because they can.
A 35% 3 point shooter is 10% more efficient than a 50% shooter from two. That’s what has historically beaten Self is teams shooting from 3 well. I’d love to see Self deny the 3 first on defense because I think that would make KU a much better team. Garrett, Agbaji, and Grimes all have the length to be top level perimeter defenders and Self needs to focus on that this off season.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree, but a good 3 pt shooting team is an aberration moreso than the norm. That’s why it bounces KU from the tourney. If it was what they faced every night Self would adapt, but 83% of the time he’s proven right with his philosophy. Out of 351 active coaches only coach K, Roy Williams, and Jay Wright have more national championships than Bill. They’re hard as heck to win, maybe being forced into a multi-year approach will benefit Kansas long term with program guys instead of OADs carrying us to the promised land.
-
@dylans It’s not an aberration anymore though and I’ll back it up. I will list how many teams averaged 20 or more 3FGA’s per game since Self arrived at Kansas.
2003-04: 81
2004-05: 91
2005-06: 98
2006-07: 115
2007-08: 126
2008-09: 94
2009-10: 83
2010-11: 86
2011-12: 91
2012-13: 88
2013-14: 93
2014-15: 93
2015-16: 191
2016-17: 217
2017-18: 247
2018-19: 270
I’m sure you’ll notice a significant change in numbers for the 2008-09 season and the 2015-16 seasons. In 2008-09, then NCAA moved the 3 point line back to its current distance of 20’9" from 19’9".
In 2015-16, the NCAA shortened the shot clock to 30 seconds and expanded the restricted circle in the paint from 3’ to 4’.
The extending of the 3 point line led to a reduction in attempts because teams needed to adjust to the new distance. Shortening the shot clock and expanding the restricted circle made it more practical for teams to run perimeter based offense.
The only way we’ll see a reduction in 3 point attempts per game is if the NCAA pushes the 3 point line back to FIBA distances.
The increase in teams being dependent from 3 is not an anomaly, it’s the new norm in college basketball and Self has not done a good job of adjusting to that new norm.
-
Nice stats @Texas-Hawk-10
Defensively Self has work to do. A no-brainer really. How many guarded 3’s did Auburn make on Saturday? I don’t think there was one. That’s a big problem. Villanova was the same issue. Texas Tech & Iowa St other examples from this year.
Offensively he just didn’t have the personnel this year. He mentioned being concerned about shooting before the season even started. I guess we should have known then. Vick became an exceptional shooter, he easily was on target for 100 3’s on the season and was the one piece of offensive Self couldn’t replace after his absence.
The guys lacked confidence in taking shots. I watch other teams just let it fly. We didn’t have guys with the green light like we were used to. Vick had it but it took him almost 4 years to get to that level. The offense was so robotic and stagnant and for good teams was easy to guard. We didn’t put pressure on teams to guard us. Most guys only looked to score if they were open. This years team was completely different from the trio of Devonte, Svi & Malik. Grimes & Lawson were the only guys that would take contested shots all year long. The guys that come back have a ton of work to put in on the offensive side. Hopefully the two signed newcomers will improve the level of shot making and competitiveness among the veterans.
-
Does Garrett have a sort of Releford type development left in him as far as shooting?
No matter what we surround Marcus with if he can’t shoot he’ll continue to make KU easy to guard. In today’s game having a starter level player that you don’t have to guard on the perimeter is crippling to operating an efficient offense. Maybe we just need to surround him with 4 capable shooters to mask it.
-
BeddieKU23 said:
Maybe we just need to surround him with 4 capable shooters to mask it.
MardiGrarch Madness
-
Can’t afford anymore slow-footed bigs who lack explosion and guards who play 30+ minutes and shoot 25% 3pt, whose only move is slashing but shoots 50% from the charity stripe.
-
BeddieKU23 said:
“the guys lacked confidence in taking shots. I watch other teams just let it fly”
That pretty much sums up the whole season for me. This team, as a whole, had no confidence. No swag.
I had zero fun watching them play this season - as a matter of fact, when they got down 8, 10, 12 points (which was OFTEN), I would turn and watch something else. I’m at the age where i don’t feel it necessary to punish myself watching this garbage when there’s so much other garbage on TV to watch.
Self can talk about recruiting shooters, ball handlers, shot blockers, whatever things he’s looking for - but he might want to consider recruiting players who give a crap about winning and not losing.
-
I think they all cared about winning and losing. It might not have looked that way watching them and there were plenty of times that looked to be the case. Sometimes it takes years and experience for guys to build immune to situations and know how to bounce back. I think the core group of guys that return next year will now have the experience needed to make changes.
I believe in Devon Dotson’s ability to run this team. Unless we get some elite recruits this is his team going forward and I think he is a heck of a competitor. He was so good for KU most of the season we didn’t even complain about him being a freshman. His game is good already. Hopefully he can make it great next season.
Ochai Agbaji had a great start here then cooled down. The experience he gained is a lot more valuable now then it would have been as a redshirt. He has a chance to take a big step forward. One that needs to gain confidence in his abilities and work on his ball handling.
David McCormack. Some compared him to Landon Lucas when he got here. By the end of the year those comparisons looked laughable. Another that has a lot of things to work on but you can see the tools and you can’t teach his size.
Those 3 freshman can shape next years squad. Marcus and Mitch are glue guys. The two incoming recruits are winners who won POY in Arkansas/Kansas this year. They led their teams to state titles.
Self needs to go find talent and “get old”. Get some grown men in here to work with his young pups
-
One thing I’ve noticed the last couple of years when our defense has been below average after watching Tech, Virginia and other good defensive teams, they get out on people and are in there faces from the get go. We sag of off people so much and make it easy for them to shoot over us or get a running start toward the hoop. I’m not sure if these guys just aren’t good athletes compared to D1 guys (which is the case with Dedric) or what but Self need to rethink his defense this off season.
-
The tough catch about recruiting lower ranked guys at KU is that they may or may not play, which means they may or may not develop. Agbaji played and will develop as a result. But what if Grimes had been the type of elite player we had hoped? Agbaji probably doesn’t play, or plays inconsistently while Garrett is hurt/ineffective.
The bigger issue is that Self has missed on his primary targets the last few years. This year’s squad looks much different if you have Zion or Romeo on it. Zion because he and D Lawson inside would have basically been unguardable. Romeo is everything you wanted from Vick, plus more. This year’s team was always a bit flawed because they lacked shooting outside and athleticism inside without SDS.
Next year’s recruits address the outside shooting issue, but nothing has changed the interior athleticism problem.
-
Romeo still couldn’t shoot the 3 worth a-beans. Worse then Grimes actually. Besides his 3 he probably was a superior player though which I think would have benefited this team.
Agree in general Self has lost a lot of his Plan A & Plan B options recently. Grimes & Dotson’s were Plan A’s. Agbaji fell into their lap. McCormack is someone they built a relationship with for a while and became a focus. They knew they could build around him, he’s going to be a 4 year guy most likely that KU gets tremendous production out of going forward.
Would go a long way if Self could salvage the 2019 class with Plan A’s Hurt or Achiuwa, or both. I don’t have a good feeling about either but I hope I’m wrong.
JRE and Samuel Williamson were both clear cut misses. Both McDonald’s kids now.
-
BeddieKU23 said:
Nice stats @Texas-Hawk-10
Defensively Self has work to do. A no-brainer really. How many guarded 3’s did Auburn make on Saturday? I don’t think there was one. That’s a big problem. Villanova was the same issue. Texas Tech & Iowa St other examples from this year.
Offensively he just didn’t have the personnel this year. He mentioned being concerned about shooting before the season even started. I guess we should have known then. Vick became an exceptional shooter, he easily was on target for 100 3’s on the season and was the one piece of offensive Self couldn’t replace after his absence.
The guys lacked confidence in taking shots. I watch other teams just let it fly. We didn’t have guys with the green light like we were used to. Vick had it but it took him almost 4 years to get to that level. The offense was so robotic and stagnant and for good teams was easy to guard. We didn’t put pressure on teams to guard us. Most guys only looked to score if they were open. This years team was completely different from the trio of Devonte, Svi & Malik. Grimes & Lawson were the only guys that would take contested shots all year long. The guys that come back have a ton of work to put in on the offensive side. Hopefully the two signed newcomers will improve the level of shot making and competitiveness among the veterans.
see this is where I felt really bad about Auburn and the way they spread - -I said we were in trouble , people disagreed. - -I saw this 3 pt defense all yr - -just sucked - WIDE OPEN 3’s - time - -after time - -after time - -just like you mentioned with Saturdays game. - Hell you give shooters like Auburn have -they gonna kill you - -and they did. - -just got to get better
-
BeddieKU23 said:
Romeo still couldn’t shoot the 3 worth a-beans. Worse then Grimes actually. Besides his 3 he probably was a superior player though which I think would have benefited this team.
Agree in general Self has lost a lot of his Plan A & Plan B options recently. Grimes & Dotson’s were Plan A’s. Agbaji fell into their lap. McCormack is someone they built a relationship with for a while and became a focus. They knew they could build around him, he’s going to be a 4 year guy most likely that KU gets tremendous production out of going forward.
Would go a long way if Self could salvage the 2019 class with Plan A’s Hurt or Achiuwa, or both. I don’t have a good feeling about either but I hope I’m wrong.
JRE and Samuel Williamson were both clear cut misses. Both McDonald’s kids now.
I agree with you for sure Dave. - -I have been already to see improvement with him - by I would say his JR year and like you he will be a 4 yr guy - -but by his JR year I think this kid is gonna be really productive both ways in scoring and rebounding - and he has the size that is gonna be really hard to defend
I think Hurt has rode of into the sunset. I just think that ship has sailed - -saw where he now is trying to set something up to visit Memphis. - just feel if he was so interested in KU as once was believed to be - he would of committed some time ago -hoping maybe to get Precious now -…
-
jayballer73 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Nice stats @Texas-Hawk-10
Defensively Self has work to do. A no-brainer really. How many guarded 3’s did Auburn make on Saturday? I don’t think there was one. That’s a big problem. Villanova was the same issue. Texas Tech & Iowa St other examples from this year.
Offensively he just didn’t have the personnel this year. He mentioned being concerned about shooting before the season even started. I guess we should have known then. Vick became an exceptional shooter, he easily was on target for 100 3’s on the season and was the one piece of offensive Self couldn’t replace after his absence.
The guys lacked confidence in taking shots. I watch other teams just let it fly. We didn’t have guys with the green light like we were used to. Vick had it but it took him almost 4 years to get to that level. The offense was so robotic and stagnant and for good teams was easy to guard. We didn’t put pressure on teams to guard us. Most guys only looked to score if they were open. This years team was completely different from the trio of Devonte, Svi & Malik. Grimes & Lawson were the only guys that would take contested shots all year long. The guys that come back have a ton of work to put in on the offensive side. Hopefully the two signed newcomers will improve the level of shot making and competitiveness among the veterans.
see this is where I felt really bad about Auburn and the way they spread - -I said we were in trouble , people disagreed. - -I saw this 3 pt defense all yr - -just sucked - WIDE OPEN 3’s - time - -after time - -after time - -just like you mentioned with Saturdays game. - Hell you give shooters like Auburn have -they gonna kill you - -and they did. - -just got to get better
Not guarding Bryce Brown with a sense of urgency was literally stupid.
Kentucky made Fletcher MacGee useless on Saturday with how they guarded him.
FSU made Ja Morant’s impact on the game non existent by making his teammates average.
Nobody guarded Brown, not one of his shots was contested. Good shooters will tee up all day with that kind of matador defense. At the end of the day the approach and execution was extremely poor. Once Auburn made shots early KU folded like a cheap suit. That’s how you get down 26 points at half, being kicked in the teeth and not having the poise to reset and fight through it. We seem to catch everyone’s perfect day in the tournament. Just as Nova and Oregon for recent examples
-
That’s always been a problem at Kansas. We can’t recruit like the Dooks, UNCs and UKs on a consistent basis. We do pretty good with what we have most years, a guy has to wonder if those guys just pay better at this point. The media coverage of them constantly doesn’t help. I remember after we beat Dook last season the next day on ESPN coach K was front and center about how he was beating Cal at his own game on the CBB page just like it was a Dook affiliated news outlet. This year after the sweet 16 Zion is of course front and center. It doesn’t matter what they do, they are media darlings.
-
@kjayhawks look guys…this “we can’t recruit like Duke” logic is irrelevant. We need to recruit well enough to win. UCF recruited well enough to win, they just got screwed. UVA has recruited well enough to win.
Why do we need flawed players? The only reasons I can come up with are:
- self likes personalities, flaws be damned
- self thinks the sum of his flawed players is greater than the sum of players that aren’t elite at one thing but aren’t bad at anything. That’s where I disagree
- self is making sacrifices in his recruiting in order to win now without ever experiencing significant let down.
-
Are we overthinking this years issues though? We finally had a team that bent and broke. We took for granted how many times self has glued together the sum of his parts to make a successful season. Finally enough upperclassmen were injured or no longer with the team that it left a huge leadership and experience void.
We undervalued just how much Self catered his entire offseason and approach to the season on having a healthy Doke. Early Season Vick was POY good, just like his Jr year started. This time he finally broke and ended up home without finishing his season here no senior night, no post season grind with his teammates. I dont know what coach survives two of his top 3 players not being able to play. In my opinion Silvio made 3 of his top 4. We still won 26 games. Pretty crazy. It was a disappointing season at different parts but I do think considering how much was missing from the roster it’s amazing to think we could even win that many games.
I have been saying this for years, I would like just one season where KU starts and finishes with its entire roster. Something has to give, it’s not coincidence anymore
-
@BeddieKU23 I really think this year was a matter of KU being an extremely inexperienced team, especially once Doke and Vick were out of the picture. At that point, KU was down to 9 scholarship players and 7 of them were in their first year playing for KU.
We saw the lack of chemistry 4 and 5 years ago when KU also lost 10 and 9 games those seasons. It just takes time to develop that chemistry. Sometimes it clicks right away, sometimes it doesn’t.
-
@BeddieKU23 of the 3 you mentioned, Silvio was the player with the most upside. But had Vick and Doke played,would we be talking about how Doke can’t shoot FTs and can’t guard mobile bigs? Would we be talking about how Vick is a headcase? I’ve got to go with yes and yes. They’re exploitable weaknesses. It’s still unlikely we win a championship with those guys.
-
@BeddieKU23 Right … We should all not forget that it is entirely possible that right now, KU is undefeated if we have our entire team - Doke, SDS, and Vick. Certainly ready to kick Duke’s a**.
-
All good points. We are still talking about over 30 points missing from the lineup. A guy that despite some weaknesses made over 70% of his field goals and gave this team an above the rim presence every possession on offense as well as that big body and defensive presence. Vick was flirting with near 50% shooting from 3, a guy that could make tough guarded shots and was yet another athlete missing. Silvio, while raw was a rim running rebounding machine that had a real competitive streak to him. When your 5th, 6th, 7th 8th guys become part of your top 5 it’s never going to end well.
I think it was clear early we probably were not a championship team. I did hope by end of season chemistry and roles worked themselves out but I doubt this is a 2nd round exit type team with those guys. We probably don’t end with a 4 seed and we probably would have won #15. Of course none of that matters now.
-
Definitely chemistry lacked. It even lacked with the veterans early in the year. Having young guys in big roles made it difficult to have the season we hoped and had come to expect, take for granted. The hope is those young pups will develop the chemistry for next year and the following year after that. Not sure I’m that optimistic it will happen without seeing what the final roster looks like for next year. I think Self needs to find a few veterans on the transfer market to mesh with the younger guys
-
If we had all of those guys we still have a tragically flawed headcase as one of our two reliable 3 point threats in Vick, the other being Dotson. I’m sorry, but assuming we’d go undefeated is fan fiction.
Still thin at guard, with Agbaji a redshirt and Charlie a black hole of awful. Playing a high low with Mitch (I would hope but can’t be certain of) as the 4th big? And we are somehow going to guard the perimeter better?
-
@approxinfinity Having a healthy Doke all season allows Lawson to play his natural spot and KU to dominate in the paint as teams scheme to stop either Doke or Lawson, but not both.
I’ll agree no chance this team would’ve gone undefeated, but I could easily see KU only dropping 4 or 5 games and running away with the conference. I don’t know if they beat Arizona State regardless because that’s a game KU has historically struggled in. I also don’t know if KU beats Kentucky at Rupp this year either. KU probably has a couple of clunkers in B12 play and likely win 15 or 16 B12 games.
A healthy KU is a 1 or 2 seed in the NCAA Tournament this season and one of the title favorites because of their neutral court wins over MSU, Marquette, and Tennessee.
-
@approxinfinity “Entirely possible that … KU is undefeated” vs “assuming we’d go undefeated” are very much different.
It is certainly possible. And not in lightning strike sense.
We won every game with Doke playing full speed. Add SDS and no one … not Duke, not UNC, no one … could match up with us. The assumption is that we would have a functional Vick as well.
I think there is a significant fiction that the game has now completely changed. You can win with big players. Imagine Dotson if he actually had a functioning front line? There is more than one way to win.
So anyone that says “no chance” (@Texas-Hawk-10) is living in that speculative dreamworld of absolutism that impedes open thought.
-
@HighEliteMajor There hasn’t been an undefeated team in over 40 years. Kentucky in 2015 is the closest we’ll see to a team going undefeated in this era of college basketball and even that team couldn’t do it. Too many things have to go right over 40 games for it to happen in this era.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 So you’re saying there is no chance? I mean, of course, given that it just happened a few years ago. Slim chance? Ok.
-
HighEliteMajor said:
@approxinfinity “Entirely possible that … KU is undefeated” vs “assuming we’d go undefeated” are very much different.
Fair.
We won every game with Doke playing full speed. Add SDS and no one … not Duke, not UNC, no one … could match up with us.
3 > 2. Someone could most certainly match up with us. They just would have to shoot well.
The assumption is that we would have a functional Vick as well.
Having a functional Vick is imo like saying “having a Doke that can shoot FTs and guard the 3”. You’re saying “but without his tragic flaw”.
I think there is a significant fiction that the game has now completely changed. You can win with big players. Imagine Dotson if he actually had a functioning front line? There is more than one way to win.
I can appreciate this. But we still can’t shoot well.
-
I get why Bill assembled the roster he did, I think. I can see how the pieces fit. But when every year one piece or two we need doesn’t develop or gets injured or ineligible isn’t it a fair question why we have unique pieces and don’t build redundancy into the system?
-
Get the pogo stick bigs that shoot threes and get beat up on the block - lose when the threes stop falling.
Get the bruiser bigs and struggle guarding the three - lose to a hot three point shooting team.
Pick your poison.
-
@dylans except that i would hardly call any of our bigs bruiser bigs once Doke went down.
-
@HighEliteMajor It didn’t happen a few years ago though. Kentucky even in the most ideal of circumstances couldn’t pull off a perfect season with a much better roster than what KU would’ve had this year fully loaded with SDS and a weaker SEC than the Big 12 was this year. Only 5 of 14 SEC teams made the NCAA tournament that year and only Kentucky was a top 4 seed and only Arkansas was even a top 8 seed among the other 4 teams.
5 of the 6 teams Kentucky played twice in league play that year were bottom half of the SEC teams. This was the Kentucky team that held Kansas to 40 points in a game.
That was the most ideal of circumstances for a team to go undefeated and if that Kentucky team couldn’t do it, there’s nothing that can convince me any team can go undefeated in D1 men’s college basketball for an entire season and finish 40-0.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 No, it did. I was referring to KU being undefeated at this point. You didn’t taketime to read what I wrote. I said it is “entirely possible that RIGHT NOW, KU is undefeated …” We’re at the sweet 16.
@approxinfinity I can kind of grant you the Vick point. But he did function sufficiently last season (17-18). That Vick would have been at least passable.
-
Hurt didn’t mention any visit to Memphis yesterday to the media. This was one of the first time’s Matthew has actually spoken to the media this year and from what I read into his comments KU is still sitting in a good spot. The role he wants is here. Dedric just put up 20 and 10 in that role. You can run the 4 out with him as he’ll put tremendous pressure on opposing teams to guard him. Not many teams are going to have that option. He has some limitations just like Dedric but he’s a legitimate elite shooter, something this team desperately needs
-
approxinfinity said:
If we had all of those guys we still have a tragically flawed headcase as one of our two reliable 3 point threats in Vick, the other being Dotson. I’m sorry, but assuming we’d go undefeated is fan fiction.
Still thin at guard, with Agbaji a redshirt and Charlie a black hole of awful. Playing a high low with Mitch (I would hope but can’t be certain of) as the 4th big? And we are somehow going to guard the perimeter better?
That’s one way to look at it and I agree certain aspects of players were not going to change. Vick would have been the 3rd option though behind the post players. He seemed to implode right around the time all the pressure was on him to be the “guy” besides Lawson. Maybe he keeps it together just enough being that 3rd option. I don’t know, we don’t know all his issues. Vick was never an outspoken leader, he never thrived in that role. Doke was the leader of this team and his presence on the court changed a lot of things for KU. Without him that pressure went to Dedric who did an admiral job but we all saw how much he needed a robin to compliment him. Dotson stepped up big time in trying to pick up that role. I haven’t been this impressed with a freshman since 2008.
I don’t think we go undefeated either. Probably a 4 to 5 loss team though which is half of what we ended up with. That’s #1 seed or a high #2 seed territory.
If De Sousa was available that would have changed a lot of roles. There would have been no drop off to going to him off the bench imo which wasn’t the case going to Mitch and later David. The guard rotation was still a mess. Charlie and KJ even with the sit out year played like Freshman for almost the entire season. Garrett didn’t improve his shot, Grimes couldn’t piss in an ocean outside of a handful of games.
-
approxinfinity said:
I get why Bill assembled the roster he did, I think. I can see how the pieces fit. But when every year one piece or two we need doesn’t develop or gets injured or ineligible isn’t it a fair question why we have unique pieces and don’t build redundancy into the system?
It is a fair question. Not much we can do at this point about the guys already in the system. The coaching staff has a ton of work to do this off-season in player and skill development.
-
@approxinfinity DeSousa…oh yeah. Um McCormack?
Wright, Arthur types are en vogue now, so Nike gets them.
-
HighEliteMajor said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 No, it did. I was referring to KU being undefeated at this point. You didn’t taketime to read what I wrote. I said it is “entirely possible that RIGHT NOW, KU is undefeated …” We’re at the sweet 16.
I misinterpreted what you said.
-
@dylans ok, yeah if they were healthy and eligible, Doke, De Sousa and McCormack are a punishing line up. However, I don’t think of De Sousa and McCormack as bruisers. They both have face up game, and they can move well enough to guard the perimeter. I don’t see them as having a critical flaw like Doke. They are pogo stick and bruiser in one.
-
@approxinfinity We have to take the guys with personalities because they are the only talented guys left. UCF competed with Dook in one game, dook smokes them 9 of 10 times. UCF hasn’t made the dance since 05 before this season and I bet they don’t again for a several years after next season when most of these guys are gone. The little teams have been better recently because guys stay 4 years and can be groomed for a good junior and senior season.
-
I don’t know. UVA won the ACC four of the last 6 years. Yes, last year they lost first round. Why? They didn’t shoot the 3 enough, and they didn’t have redundancy in the athleticism department and Hunter went down . Both things have been corrected. Keenly watching their success this post season. If their system can translate to post season success, I will be looking if they can maintain a lack of critical flaws with the talent they recruit.
