Harden highlights how awesome Wilt was
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NBA needs to bring back the hand check. The floor is spread out due to everyone’s 3 pt ability and its impossible to guard guys one on one with no physical contact.
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Wilt is the GOAT and I’ll argue with anyone on the matter
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I don’t know how anyone can call Wilt the GOAT when he played in an era where well over half of the players couldn’t afford to train year round like him, the players were tiny in both height and weight, during a time period that teams had a wink-wink agreement to carry less African-Americans.
It is not far fetched to think Shaq would have put up similar numbers to Wilt against the same exact competition. Wilt had 80lbs+ on Bill Russell. The AVERAGE player since the 90s has been 6’7 220 Lbs. Back when Wilt played, the average player was closer to 6’5 and 200 Lbs. A 3% increase in height. A 10% increase in weight. Not insignificant numbers at all.
It is definitely possible Wilt is the best. But it is damn near impossible to know.
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To me Wilt is Babe Ruth and Wayne Gretzky. They did things in their sport that no one else will do again. I don’t know hockey that well but Gretzky is 1000 points ahead of the next closest scorer with 33% more points. Babe Ruth, while his numbers have been matched of course, out homered the rest of baseball several seasons. So I think I agree with @kjayhawks but also agree with @Kcmatt7 when he says it’s near impossible to know.
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@kjayhawks To me, team success has to part of the equation when determining greatness and Wilt, like Harden, rarely made his teammates better and step up. As great an individual player as Wilt was, he rarely made his teams better overall and why he only won 2 championships. Had he been less selfish and a better teammate, he probably splits about half the Celtics titles with Russell.
Wilt may be ti greatest individual talent ever, but Michael is still the GOAT to me because he made his teammates better and helped guys like Pippen, Kerr, Harper and Kukoc become better players than they ever would’ve on their own.
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@wissox That’s why I like how baseball has basically split everything into eras accounting for changes in the game.
Like Ruth, Wilt is certainly the best player of an era and will be a legend for forever.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 You are dead on correct on this. I was huge NBA fan in the 80s and 90s. And for my money, the greatest player of all time was Magic Johnson. If I had to start a team, he’d be my pick.
Jordan is awesome. Career 30.1 pts, 5.8 assists, 6.2 rebounds. Magic was 19.5 points, 11.2 assists, 7.2 rebounds.
I just think Magic was the guy that I watched that had the biggest impact on a game overall, all aspects. But you can’t argue with a handful of others, including Jordan, Bird (24.3/6.3/10.0), and Lebron (27.2/7.2/7.4). I’ve always been a Magic guy.
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Harden style of play doesn’t really pass the eye test, but his team is 16-6 since he’s had to take over with cp3 going down.
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@HighEliteMajor I’m there with you on Magic. Dude was a WINNER! He won high school state champ, NCAA champ, and NBA champ in a 4 year window and was MVP in all championships.
Of course Bill Russell won NCAA back to back and an NBA title his rookie year.
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@Kcmatt7 LMAO!!! Anyone thats puts Shaq in the same conversation as Wilt should be slapped, Wilt was an insane athlete, Shaq was lazy and useless more than 5 feet from the rim. Shaq is Doke(beside lazy) and Embiid is Wilt. Wilt had a very similar build to Joel and Joel is one the best players in the league today. Watching videos, I’d say Wilt is considerably better defensively. Size doesn’t mean a ton to mean especially in todays game where you get a foul call for looking at someone. Jordan, Wilt and Kareem all would’ve averaged 5 or 6 more PPG if they played today based off of weak foul calls alone. Who are the best players in the league right now? KD- Skinny and no girth, Curry- tiny and no muscle mass, Lenard- skinny as can be but quick. Girth means nothing in todays game, even LeBron has slimmed up so he’s quicker. You should watch Videos of Wilt man, he’s beating guards down the floor, while Shaq walked most of the time. I gotta say the Shaq comparison maybe the stupidest comment I’ve ever seen on here. @Texas-Hawk-10 tried to out do you tho.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Really by whoms account? Bill Russell played with a team of all stars in Boston, guys like Bob Cousy and Tom Heinsohn, have over 15 all star selections between the 2 of them. Wilt was the Warriors/76ers had back in those days. He was so selfish later in his career when he was with all stars in LA, he became the first and only center to lead the league in assists. Everything I’ve read on Wilt, his teammates and coaches loved him. Basketball back then only LA and Boston had the cash for super teams. I think you can debate you have to have a Championship to be considered the GOAT, Wilt has 2, NEXT!
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@Kcmatt7 oh and you’re full of crap Wilt is listed at 270 on most sites and Russell 220 or 230 depending on the site. A little short of 80 pounds for sure. I’ve read he got outta shape in LA and gained weigh but most of the roster I look up don’t list him over 270 and some early in his career list him at 250. Also note Russell was long retired by the time Wilt was anywhere near 300.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 You do realize that Jordan’s team was pretty stout without him right? I believe they went to back to back conference finals without him and won 55 or more games in both of those years.
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Here is always my question, How many people complained enough to get the rules changed for the likes of Jordan, Bird and Magic? ZERO They widened the lane, twice because of him, they added offensive goal tending. When he was at Kansas they made a rule you couldn’t in bound the ball by passing over the back board because it was 2 easy points for Wilt. In high school he would shoot free throws off the line and throw it off the back board to tip it in and if it was thru the rim before his feet hit the ground, it was good. “There is no one that has ever played the game as well as Wilt Chamberlain, he was a man for the ages” - Jerry West former teammate, coach and Lakers executive whom personally watched the likes of Magic, Kareem practice and play for years as well as watching Jordan.
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@kjayhawks Bulls only played one postseason without MJ and lost in the second round. Jordan elevated those teams from good to great. Wilt didn’t have that effect on his teams. Championships matter and Wilt struggled to win championships.
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@kjayhawks Also, hand checking was eliminated from the NBA because of Jordan which is probably the biggest reason why offensive players have dominated so much in the past 20 years. The rules for ISO offense were also changed because of Jordan. Tge Bulls would clear out to one side of the court and let Jordan take his man one on one on the other side. This was banned shortly after MJ’s entry into the league and why ISO plays now go to the center of the floor instead of the side.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I’m really not making that comparison, it’s just funny that there are so few comps to what he’s doing. Harden is an afterthought for me normally, even when he’s mvp. Kobe would be a better comp to overall career as he was a huge ball hog too, but the last few games have been pretty wild for Harden.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Look at the all stars Lebron, Jordan and co played with for much of their careers. Compared to the guys Wilt played much of his career with really no comparison. You could say later in Wilts career in LA they didn’t win enough titles but they pretty much had him and Jerry West.
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@kjayhawks If someone says Wilt is the greatest player, there’s no way to dispute it. There are perhaps 5-7 players in that discussion.
Does anyone dispute that Wilt was the singular most dominating player? I think we all agree on that.
If we were to start a draft, and pick a team, the question might be who is the first pick. That seems to square most with who is the best player. Maybe that method isn’t the best one to make the determination.
Using that method, I’d pick Magic. But picking 2-5 and ending up with Bird, Wilt, Michael or Lebron, well, no one would feel bad about that.
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kjayhawks said:
@Kcmatt7 LMAO!!! Anyone thats puts Shaq in the same conversation as Wilt should be slapped, Wilt was an insane athlete, Shaq was lazy and useless more than 5 feet from the rim. Shaq is Doke(beside lazy) and Embiid is Wilt. Wilt had a very similar build to Joel and Joel is one the best players in the league today. Watching videos, I’d say Wilt is considerably better defensively. Size doesn’t mean a ton to mean especially in todays game where you get a foul call for looking at someone. Jordan, Wilt and Kareem all would’ve averaged 5 or 6 more PPG if they played today based off of weak foul calls alone. Who are the best players in the league right now? KD- Skinny and no girth, Curry- tiny and no muscle mass, Lenard- skinny as can be but quick. Girth means nothing in todays game, even LeBron has slimmed up so he’s quicker. You should watch Videos of Wilt man, he’s beating guards down the floor, while Shaq walked most of the time. I gotta say the Shaq comparison maybe the stupidest comment I’ve ever seen on here. @Texas-Hawk-10 tried to out do you tho.
Kevin Durant - 240 lbs. Skinny.
Bill Russell - 220 lbs. One of the bigger players back then…
Jerry West - 6’2 185 lbs.
Steph Curry - 6’3 190 lbs. Tiny.
Kawhi Leonard - 6’7 230 lbs. Skinny.
Bailey Howell - 6’7 209 lbs.
I think that’s all I need to say about who Wilt was going up against. It’s fun to imagine him as a demi-god. But he was a man, in a game built for him, playing against 1/1000 of the competition that exists today.
I mean, literally, there are probably 100,000 more players to choose from today than there were in the 60s.
To your next point, there were more foul calls in the 60s than there are today. In fact, it was far more strict on both sides of the ball. 15 more free throws shot per game in 1960 than last year. Or, 70% more free throws per game. Which is a metric shit ton. They also scored 13% more points back in the day than they did during Shaq’s time, which leads me to my next point.
Shaq’s per 36, when adjusted for the era, would have lined up JUUUUST short of Wilt. Shaq even had a better FG% and FT% than Wilt did. Sure he played bully ball, but he would have still scored FG at a similar pace.
I’m not telling you Shaq was better than Wilt. But he would have put up very similar numbers had he also played in that same time period just because they were both so much bigger than anyone else playing the game at that time.
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Question. I’ve learned a lot about Wilt on this site, but I wonder if people who remember can expound on how good Oscar Robertson was? He’s often listed in the greatest conversation (though less as much recently). Is there a reason he’s fallen out of the conversation? How would his game translate to today’s NBA?
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@approxinfinity I think what Westbrook did a couple years ago tempered the Big O talk.
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@approxinfinity Oscar is definitely one of those guys that gets over looked. He would’ve been Fabulous in any era IMO, dude was super quick, 6’5 guard so he had size and prob has even better averages if the 3 point line was around when he started. He comes close to averaging a triple double with points (25.7), Rebounds (7.5) and Assists (9.5). He was pretty much Magic before Magic was around. I personally think any of the greats could play today and with ease. You look at how much more physical the game was from the 60s to the mid 90s, there’s no comparison. Guys would be fouling out in quarters if it was called as it is today. As a I stated above every player that played pre-2000 would’ve averaged several more PPG for the amount foul shots today. Look at the run Harden is on, he’s killing it but he’s getting dozens of foul shots each night too.
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dylans said:
@approxinfinity I think what Westbrook did a couple years ago tempered the Big O talk.
Interesting. Makes sense.
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@kjayhawks I don’t know. That NBA 3 is deep, and the game is so focused on the 3, I wonder if some of the great guards just wouldn’t be considered great now if they couldn’t hit the 3. We assume they could all adjust to that range.
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@approxinfinity Fair point but Oscar could hit outside shots as could guys like JoJo White and Pistol Pete. Some guys wouldn’t be effect for sure and its hard to know how deep they actually were back then.
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@Kcmatt7 Watch Videos of Embiid, who is dominating the league at his position and watch Wilt. Tell me they ain’t similar players, I’d actually say Wilt was better. I think he could do more than Embiid is doing today. The game back in the day was way more physical, guys were get elbowed all the time, shoot punches were being thrown in several games.
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@kjayhawks Hmmm. Interesting on Embiid. Could Wilt hit the three (answer, no – there was no three)? Handle the dribble traffic? Embiid is more complete. But Wilt was clearly better. Wilt was a freak of course. Good stuff on the Big O. Clearly part of the discussion. One of the top 7. I’d throw Russell in there with other names.
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@HighEliteMajor Embiid isn’t good at 3s, in fact he has stopped shooting them very often.
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Embiid shoots four 3-pointers per game and hits 31% of them. He’s also shooting 80.1% from the line. Wilt was not a 3-point shooter and shot 51.1% from the line for his career. Embiid is more skilled than Wilt was. Wilt was stronger and more athletic than Embiid, and everyone else in the NBA.
Wilt was the better overall player, of course, and I think you can make a good argument that he is the greatest player of all time. I personally have him 2nd behind MJ.
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kjayhawks said:
@Kcmatt7 Watch Videos of Embiid, who is dominating the league at his position and watch Wilt. Tell me they ain’t similar players, I’d actually say Wilt was better. I think he could do more than Embiid is doing today. The game back in the day was way more physical, guys were get elbowed all the time, shoot punches were being thrown in several games.
Wilt was better than Embiid. But Embiid would have put up godly numbers in the 60s as well.
Your myth of physicality in the 60s is funny and completely incorrect. Touchiest than it is now. Again, more free throws and fouls were called in that era than are called now. And that was before the strategy of fouling to lengthen a game even existed.
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Look how impossible it is to do what Wilt did:
Harden continued one of the best scoring runs ever with 35 points against the Raptors, extending his streak of 30-plus-point performances to 22 games. It’s the fourth-longest streak of 30-point games in NBA history, surpassed only by Wilt Chamberlain, who has three streaks longer than Harden’s, including a record 65.
