Who came up with the term "leftist" anyway?
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@justanotherfan I don’t know that the two things you cite (people self identifying as conservative more, and the perception of liberals by conservatives) proves that the legislation being put forth is more conservative (I admittedly have done zero research for stats on that, just observe what comes over the daily newswire), but it does show how Republican voters have rallied around the “conservative” moniker and bought in to the Republican party disparaging certain Democrats by making them appear to be fringe liberals.
Good stuff, thanks for sharing.
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The NRA, which has funded and lobbied many of the hard-right to power, wants us to believe that the Framers intended the 2nd Amendment to cover teflon-coated body armor-piercing bullets (i.e., “cop-killers”), high-capacity magazines, and rapid fire high-powered rifles. I am amazed that when it comes to implements of killing, the far right insists that the Constitution has to be interpreted broad-mindedly due to the vast changes in technology, but when it comes to any recognition of equal rights for groups legally discriminated against since the Revolution the hard right insists, and has for a century, that the Constitution cannot be interpreted liberally in recognition of the vast changes in society.
“Principled”?
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Both parties seem to be in an identity crisis, largely caused by factions at their extreme edges. I can’t really think of Republicans as ‘conservatives’ – at least not the principles of the 80s and 90s given that the deficit and spending with this administration is beyond anything I remember. And Democrats have abandoned ‘traditional’ positions as well and are being redefined by candidates like Bernie Sanders who is an unapologetic socialist. 25 years ago, it was unthinkable that a socialist could be a competitive candidate for president.
It feels like we’re in a period of party redefinition – and when it all shakes out, we may realize that the polarity of the political world has changed and its on a completely different axis.
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@HighEliteMajor “And I do believe in the right to “bare” arms. I believe in the right to hairy arms too.”
Hairy arms are generally okay, but the trend toward perpetual 2-day scraggly beards violates every norm and moral code known to man.
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Don’t have a problem with the 2 day beard as much as I do with tattoo covered arms.
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@JayHawkFanToo Yeah, I don’t get that one either, but maybe I should get a cute butterfly on my ankle and see if I get addicted to my body as canvas…
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Yet the truth is where states that have less guns laws have less crime. Where states that have strict gun laws have the most crime.
Not opinion just facts. Yet the Liberal/DNC wants to lead us down this path to some European wonderland.
You’ll have to excuse me If this Cold Blooded American will pass.
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Tell you what. When the powers to be give up their gated communities, security guards, and body guards. I’ll think about giving up my guns.
Thought about it Nope.
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Probably post Charlemagne Roman Catholicism, which having taken on temporal powers from Charlemagne, found itself not just in the religion bidness, but the governing, taxing, law and order, and trans generational continuity bidness.
Early Christianity associated left with evil and right with good, left with the devil’s work and right with god’s order. It’s in their art and some texts, if I recall correctly.
Likely they inherited this left-right opposition notion from both Jews’ and Manichaeans’ light and dark symbolism, but I’ve never tracked it back.
Christendom up to the Middle Ages was a unified, inclusive, comprehensive world view and order, if you agreed, and probably appeared totalitarian, if you didn’t.
They had to instruct right and wrong to a world of many languages and cultures, if they were to stay on top of the temporal gravy train Charlemagne put them on. Christendom, not surprisingly imitated the Romans some and resorted to universally understandable symbols and entertainment (music and ritual in the church instead of the amphitheater) to convey the basics.
What perpetuated, grew and advance Christendom was good and symbolized as being on god’s right.
What threatened Christendom, traumatized it’s order, and delegitimized it was evil and symbolized as left of good.
Up and down were used similarly.
The administrative language was Latin, just as English is in our empire today that also reigns hegemonically over many cultures and languages.
We use symbols of left and right to talk simplistically to our Babel today same as Christendom did.
The contemporary uses of left and right descend clearly from 19th Century European ideological/social/political/economic upheaval and were brought by immigrants and intelligentsia from Europe’s epic struggles to be more inclusive (and so risk destabilizing of prexisting order…left) or to conserve what order had already been achieved (right).
More rights and opportunities for everyone—Left.
More rights and opportunities, but only for those most productive and with new wealth—Right.
No change—Status quo.
This is what it’s all about.
The status quo only changes when the cost of not changing is too high.
The status quo diffuses the demand for change by issuing new rights and opportunities to the new rich with new skill and high productivity. They divide them off from Les Miserable and suppress Le Miserable.
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@jaybate-1.0 nice! Thank you for reframing the discussion! Classic jaybate. These terms are so steeped in tradition their practical meaning cannot be discerned any more, and the feelings around them are confusing and irrational. Still, we trudge on under these meaningless banners.
I like what @mayjay had to say trying to frame conservative and liberal, but I wonder if it’s too late for those words too.
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@jaybate-1.0 “Early Christianity associated left with evil and right with good, left with the devil’s work and right with god’s order. It’s in their art and some texts, if I recall correctly.”
In Latin, sinister means left-handed. The following is from a stackexchange.com answer in a similar discussion. I don’t vouch for its accuracy, but, JB, it has info right up your alley:
In the past, to be left-handed was considered touched by the Devil. As Wikipedia notes:
Historically, the left side, and subsequently left-handedness, was considered negative in many cultures. The Latin word sinistra originally meant “left” but took on meanings of “evil” or “unlucky” by the Classical Latin era, and this double meaning survives in European derivatives of Latin, and in the English word “sinister”.
Meanings gradually developed from use of these terms in the ancient languages. In many modern European languages, including English, the word for the direction “right” also means “correct” or “proper”, and also stands for authority and justice. In most Slavic languages the root prav is used in words carrying meanings of correctness or justice.
So, if you were left-handed or sinister, you were associated with evil. In time, sinister itself meant evil and threatening. EtymOnline said that sinister attained this meaning in the early 15th century. The OED supports this, writing that the first uses of sinister to mean malicious were:
1474 Rolls of Parl. VI. 110/1 Contynuyn in habundaunce of goodes and havour, to their sinister pleasure.
1477 Earl Rivers tr. Dictes or Sayengis Philosophhres (Caxton) (1877) lf. 7, Leste ye be let or withdrawen ther fro by eny sinistre or euil temptacion.
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@mayjay So is the etymology of depraved from the same? If so I think we need to investigate if, since this is a college basketball page, if Cal or K, or Pitino are all left handed since we know they are depraved.
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@wissox I just figured it was someone who lost his prave, whatever that is.
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Thanks for the assist!
Sinistra…that rings a bell.
I’m left handed; that explains why I was not allowed to play catcher in baseball! I was too sinistra!!!
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You are correct that the term siniestra, meaning left handed, was in the past meant to imply evil as in sinister as exemplified by terms such as left handed compliment.
However the origin of the terms left and right as applied to politics and/or ideology originated with the French Revolution in 1789 when members of the National Assembly that were supporters of the king sat to the right and supporters of the revolution to the left and contemporary press started referring them as right and left. Those terms became pretty much universal and the right is generally defined as the conservative wing and the left the liberal side.
I became interested in politics during the Kennedy years and started following in earnest during the Nixon years and as far back as I remember the terms right and left have always meant conservative and liberal. Now, where the parties aligned themselves has varied quite a bit over the years. In the last half century the Republican Party has traditionally been the center to conservative/right side while the Democratic Party has been the center to liberal/left side while other groups such as the Libertarian Party at times placed on the far right or far left depending on the political winds.
Both the Republican and Democratic parties have drifted to the left, in the case of the Republicans it has been mostly the leadership that has abandoned the fiscal principles of the party and moved in a direction opposite to that of its values but the core of the party has not, as @highelitemajor suggested, and the backlash resulted in the rejection of the leadership and election of an outsider that campaigned on bringing the party back. The Democratic Party has moved from a centrist left position under Bill Clinton to a solid to extreme left as evidenced by Sanders, an independent socialist, being allowed to run as a democrat and, if not for the DNC rigged primaries, he would have been the party’s candidate instead of Hillary. The new faces of the Democrats are now Sanders, Ocasio-Cortez-Cortez, Perez, Ellison and Warren, all socialists or extreme left and the bulk of the party now looks at socialism more favorably than capitalism according to a recent poll; this runs contrary to the views of the majority of the country. The 2020 election will without a doubt determine the direction the country will take for the foreseeable future.
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I still remember when Republicans and Democrats were BOTH Americans. That should be a common bond.
But common ground is eroding as folks intensify their identity on narrower and narrower interests.
The success of outside efforts to polarize the country can be no better illustrated than by this photograph.
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@bskeet just when I think it can’t get worse, tomorrow happens.
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@DoubleDD ask them now
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@Crimsonorblue22 the divide has actually grown bigger.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/236420/record-low-extremely-proud-americans.aspx
@DoubleDD I think the guys in that picture are both extremely proud to be Amurkan AND would rather be Russian than Democrat, right?
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Nah just see a few misguided people that have been indoctrinated with media bias or the lack of.
I would vote for a hard leaning left Dem before I would want to live in Russia.
Yet it is typical lib/DNC politics. Take a few photos and paint everybody into a group. Then complain about being called a leftist. Right?
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Nothing typical about that photo.
It was their decision to wear the shirts and they seem to wear them with pride.
I don’t intend to paint anyone into a group nor make sweeping judgements about anyone or anything based on that photo.
Yet by implicating the media or the DNC, you are.
What is disturbing to me is that anyone would have such vehement feelings toward fellow Americans that they would feel the need to make this expression.
We seem to have fallen a long long way away from each other in a short amount of time.
I can’t help but wonder what in the world we are missing as our attention is focused on attacking at each other.
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I guess I don’t understand the point why I’m being forced fed this pic?
Man that must hurt?
Oh wait the Rasmussen is a fake polls? Lmao.
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You want to know why I’m full on against Libs/DNC? For eight years I got called a racist because I didn’t vote for Obama. There’s your answer. Oh and it wasn’t conservatives and Reps.
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@DoubleDD https://civiqs.com/results/approve_president_trump?race=Black or African-American
Sample size for Rasmussen was too small? That poll is the outlier, with all others showing much lower support.
Who called you a racist for 8 years for not voting for Obama? Relatives? Coworkers?
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approxinfinity said:
@DoubleDD https://civiqs.com/results/approve_president_trump?race=Black or African-American
Sample size for Rasmussen was too small? That poll is the outlier, with all others showing much lower support.
Who called you a racist for 8 years for not voting for Obama? Relatives? Coworkers?
LIbs and DEms. Still are just watch any media outlet besides Fox news.
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@DoubleDD You are making zero sense right now.
Which libs and dems told you, Double DD Esquire, directly, “you are a racist”? Anyone? I know I didn’t.
Who on the big wide interwebs said, “if you didn’t vote for Obama, you’re a racist”? Let’s see:
4 results.
How about “anyone who didn’t vote for Obama is a racist”?
https://www.google.com/search?ei=GDZ4W8LQLI_5kwXNmZv4BQ&q="anyone+who+didn't+vote+for+Obama+is+a+racist"&oq="anyone+who+didn't+vote+for+Obama+is+a+racist"&gs_l=psy-ab.3...112436.117988..118291...0.0..1.113.3288.45j1…0…1…gws-wiz…0j35i39j0i20i264j0i131j0i67j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j33i22i29i30j33i160j33i21j33i10.2HocpBsmH9g
2 results.
So what exactly is Fox News telling you that other people are saying about you?
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DoubleDD said:
I guess I don’t understand the point why I’m being forced fed this pic?
Man that must hurt?
Oh wait the Rasmussen is a fake polls? Lmao.
Sorry, I don’t understand your response.
I am not force-feeding anything. Feel free to turn your head and look away.
(The truth will set you free…?)
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DoubleDD said:
You want to know why I’m full on against Libs/DNC? For eight years I got called a racist because I didn’t vote for Obama. There’s your answer. Oh and it wasn’t conservatives and Reps.
Assuming you are not a racist and that is not the reason you didn’t vote for Obama, you should not have been shamed for voting for another candidate. Reasonable folks should understand there are ample reasons to not vote for Obama that have nothing to do with his heritage.
I am sorry that happened to you.
Whoever did that was wrong. It is small-minded to pursuade through shame.
But, as I was told as a kid: “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
I hope you can be bigger than those folks and find a way to let the anger pass.
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In all fairness, you do know that Google heavily bias searches, right? Try this… the exact same search on a different search engine.
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@JayHawkFanToo mine was an exact match using quotes. Yours wasn’t. However, it appears theres an outstanding bug with duckduckgo that won’t let me exact match the search:
https://duck.co/forum/thread/1750/is-there-something-wrong-with-the-exact-match-oper
Regardless the question I have is where @DoubleDD was told he was a racist.
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Funny, I didn’t vote for Obama and nobody called me that! I sure grew to like him and Michelle, take him in a minute over the present, whom I didn’t vote for!
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Why in the world would you use quotes? When you do you are artificially restricting the search and defeating the purpose of the search engine. Try the same search in Google without the quotes and you get 4.33 million results. The primary reason to use quotes is to limit the search by looking for the exact wording but you did not even quote his generic wording. The search for the gist of what he posted yields millions of results.
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@JayHawkFanToo Because I wanted to prove that nobody actually said those words. That was my point. See look. Here’s one for “Obama is not an American”. That has a lot of results because a lot of people said that.
https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-google&ei=hL14W9q0MZC5ggejg66gBw&q=“obama+is+not+an+american”&oq=“obama+is+not+an+american”&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.3...20659.38539..39242...8.0..1.232.4339.28j12j2…0…1…0j46j0i20i264j0i131j33i22i29i30.uNYTjmd0qBg#ip=1
Did anyone tell you you were racist for not voting for Obama? Has anyone you know been told that because they didn’t vote for Obama they were racist? How about a friend of a credible friend?
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He did not quote anyone in particular but expressed what his experience was and you did not even quote him literally either so, why use quotation marks unless you purposely want a completely invalid result for an expression you made up?
I showed you that by just taking the unneeded quotes and searching for the substance of @DoubleDD post you get millions of results that fully validate his point regardless of search engine.
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@JayHawkFanToo ok hotshot, which of these 4 top results remotely resemble someone calling someone else a racist for not voting for Obama?
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Let me clarify… since I’m pretty sure you’re gonna run wild with the first one… Which of these ACTUALLY… is SOMEONE… calling SOMEONE ELSE… a RACIST?
The first one does not count, because it is SOMEONE… ASKING… everyone else… if they’re a racist for not voting for Obama.
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Now look at the 4 results from my query in quotes. Which top 4 results are more pertinent to our discussion, with or without quotes? Or if you want to dig through 10 million results and tell me how many actually pertain that works too
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Cute. You first post was a clear message that since only 4 results showed the issue must not be that great but your own latest search shows over 10 million results so it is obviously a big and real deal.g
You must know since it has been extensively reported that the Google search engine was tweaked to assign low priority to items not favorable to liberals and high priority to items that favored them…it really is not a secret just under reported by the MSM. I personally use DuckDuck go because unlike Google it dies no track your searches and it is politics neutral.
Try this…
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@JayHawkFanToo lol man! This is too much!
Now… IF you actually were looking for what we’re looking for, which is… POSTS WHERE PEOPLE ACTUALLY CALL OTHER PEOPLE RACIST FOR NOT VOTING FOR OBAMA then why on earth would Google be filtering out results of people saying that, if what you say is true, that Google has a bias against conservative viewpoints?
Presumably, the mythical parts of the internet where PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY ACCUSING OTHERS OF BEING RACIST BECAUSE THEY DID NOT VOTE FOR OBAMA would be liberal troll holes, right? So why would this so called liberally biased search engine then filter out those results?
Well, because the results you show are all conservative troll holes, that’s why! Click on your top result there. Oh. Guess what, it’s conservative trolls telling us how liberals are calling people racist for not voting for Obama.
My challenge still stands. Show me the ACTUAL liberals calling conservatives racists for not voting for Obama. Not someone talking about it. Someone actually doing it.
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@JayHawkFanToo sorry. Doesn’t count. Fox news covering a liberal talking head talking about what other people are saying. Again, where are the actual real life people saying “you’re racist if you didn’t vote for Obama”? Not people talking about people saying whatever as filtered through a spin machine.
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I think the answer is that there aren’t many. Like very very few people actually saying that… Because that’d be nuts!
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No one has told me to my face that if I did not vote for Obama I am a racist for two reasons. First, most people I know don’t know who I voted for and second, my circle of friends and acquientances know ne well and know that I am not a racist and are not the type that would make wild accusations. However, I have heard numerous times on the political shows all over MSM commentators/guest/analysts/celebrities state that people that did not vote for Obama have a hatred for him and are racist. Follow the links on the search and you will find lots of examples.
Now, the emphasis has changed and liberals accuse anyone that voted for Trump to be racist which is equally idiotic.
This is the typical…are you going to believe me or your own lying eyes/ears. In the end, you will believe what you want to believe and so will I, for every search you come up that you feel makes your point I can come up with one that makes mine. I guess we could call it a Mexican stand-off but we might be accused of cultural appropriation so this discussion seems pointless, wouldn’t you agree.
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@JayHawkFanToo I think you’ve proven my point. Nobody is actually telling you you are racist. But you’re letting the media tell you what other people think. Very dangerous. The good news is… This thing you are afraid of doesnt exist! The world is a little better than you think! This is cause for celebration isn’t it? Just tune out the news and we’re there!
cheers buddy.
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Try this then or Oprah and Oliver Stone in their own words. The context seems pretty clear.
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Because no one told me does not prove it is not true. Obviously @DoubleDD says it happened to him and I take him at his word and there is plenty of annecdotal evidence that it is not as uncommon as you think. You need to open your mind and realize that other people have experiences different than yours.
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@JayHawkFanToo the first source is another conservative spin site talking about a liberal talking head. I can’t find the original quote anywhere. Maybe they retracted it? If it was said it was a stupid thing to say. But again. Liberal talking head. Reported by conservative troll site. Common theme here. These guys aren’t real. If I took this spin media as fact no doubt I’d be angry too.
The Oprah one doesn’t exactly count. She’s talking about people opposed to the sitting President not voting against him (our original thing was voting, but ok), and that there is a racial element to some of the opposition to Obama as the sitting President. You know like people saying you’re not American if you don’t let Trump be President. But it’s not the whole interview, again it’s cut and filtered through Fox talking heads and immediately opinions are vomited out in a mother bird regurgitation frenzy.
I really don’t think she was talking about all people, only that there was some racially motivated resistance to Obama’s presidency. Would that not be an accurate statement?
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@JayHawkFanToo because no one told you [that you’re a racist for not voting for Obama] doesn’t mean that [someone called you a racist for not voting for Obama] is not true. Got it!
I’ll wait to hear about @DoubleDD being called a racist if he wants to talk about it. I know other people have different experiences than me and would not mind discussing them but if he doesn’t want to that’s fine too.
