No Indication ANY American Helped Hack the 2016 Election!!!
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I kind of believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. Sure you may be correct in the points you have made. Yet is that the only way?
Trump isn’t like any president we have ever had. Whether one views that as good or bad is a matter of perception. At the end of the day he’s going to do what has made him successful. And if that means meeting one on one then so be it.
I know there is this thought you don’t sit down with a rogue nation or leader as you legitimize them and what they are doing. Yet how is burying your head in the sand and act like it’s not happening fix anything either. Lines of communication should always be open. Just as when Obama went to Cuba.
Me personally I’m not sure why we have to have the media privy to every minor detail. This isn’t some reality show. The future of our children and nations depend on meetings like this. The media in my opinion isn’t some outlet to be trusted with producing clear facts of a situation, summit, or meeting. As I think it is quite clear they are indeed pushing and agenda.
Having rambled on like a mad man. I do see your point and wouldn’t disagree.
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@DoubleDD you’re not understanding me. I am saying that collusion is not the point at all. We are not talking about collusion. You are artificially bringing collusion into the discussion. Let’s not talk about collusion. We can talk about collusion in a different thread. I’ll start it.
Let’s talk about how a president negotiates with Russia.
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I’m not against sitting down with other countries to discuss things diplomatically. I wasn’t against the North Korea meeting, and I am not against meeting with Russia.
What I am against is one on one high level diplomatic meetings. The stakes are too high The risk is too great. You can have one on one meetings to set up the high level stuff, but when its showtime, you need all hands on deck.
I am very much pro diplomacy. I want Trump to be successful in these meetings because eliminating the nuclear threat from North Korea, or ending Russian aggression in Eastern Europe are both things that will make the world more peaceful. But I think Trump cuts the chances of success down drastically by going it alone. We’ve already seen this backfire with North Korea, as I said before, and without anyone in the room, there’s no one else to help keep Putin honest even if they do come to a deal one on one.
Is the method I described the only way? No, of course not.
Is it the best way (i.e., most likely way to lead to success)? Probably.
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@DoubleDD you are right, he’s not like any other president.
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Now we know from Putin, through Trump, that the Russians weren’t involved either.
Damn, then who did do all that crap that even top Republicans say happened?
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@mayjay clearly it was the democrats.
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DoubleDD said:
Me personally I’m not sure why we have to have the media privy to every minor detail. This isn’t some reality show. The future of our children and nations depend on meetings like this. The media in my opinion isn’t some outlet to be trusted with producing clear facts of a situation, summit, or meeting. As I think it is quite clear they are indeed pushing and agenda.
A timely topic.
If we could just get the cameras and reporters out of the way and let the despots have their meetings in privacy, we’d all feel a lot safer.
But then, we wouldn’t know that our own president prefers to defend the Russians rather than his own FBI.
Even if he thinks it’s broken, I’m not sure why he would sell them out on such a global stage.
I will give him this: He is making unique choices about what to be transparent about and what to keep quiet (I’m not sure what is in the latter category.)
Ignorance is Bliss.
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Here’s a litany of quotes from Republican lawmakers condemning Donald Trump’s meeting with Putin in strong terms: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-putin-summit-reaction-20180716-story.html
If you aren’t getting these quotes from your regular news sources, I think you need to question whether your sources are truly conservative, or even news at all.
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A more comprehensive list:
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It appears I’ve highjacked the topic. My bad.
To be honest I’m not so sure I trust the FBI right now, or should I say the ones in positions of power.
How Peter Strzok still has a job is a bit mind boggling to me. After watching his testimony how anybody doesn’t think he didn’t allow his political views to affect his investigation of Hillary and Russian Collusion is beyond on me.
I also find it very interesting that Muller’s release of the indictment of the 12 Russians takes places right after Strzok’s failed testimony.
For the record I think the FBI is a fine secret service agency. Yet I’m not naïve enough to think that it is beyond reproach.
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Why do you feel this a RNC and DNC issue?
See this why I get befuddled with some of the thought processes of left leaning thinkers. They hate Trump and then blame Russians for Hillary losing the election. Yet they push a narrative of Trump guilt with no evidence and before the investigation is even over. Seems a bit unfair to me.
Why do they push this narrative, because the DNC didn’t follow proper protocol in protecting their servers, and got hacked by anybody and everybody that had a computer. Again that doesn’t seem quite fair.
I also don’t understand why the Trump hate, as if he cheated or something? You know the reality is if the DNC wouldn’t have rigged their own elections. Trump wouldn’t be President right now. Old Bernie was a juggernaut that had captured the youth devotion in the same vein as Obama did. I would gather Bernie would’ve mopped the floor with Trump. Alas it was not to be.
I don’t mean to be rude or mean, but if your a left leaning thinker, stop with this corruption stuff. Or at the very least clean your own house before you lecture the rest of us that don’t lean left.
The DNC is the reason Trump is president. Keep it up and he’ll get elected for a second term.
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Ok guys I’ll play the devil’s advocate in this thread. More than happy to give all of us some thing to do until basketball season kicks in. Yet first sign of hurt feelings I’m bailing.
For the record: Yes I do lean Conservative, however I’m no Right leaner that just punches the ticket Red. I tend to mistrust all government and politicians to some degree or another. Also feel the DNC needs a big overhaul of it’s leadership. Nancy, Chuck and the gang just aren’t cutting it anymore. One last thing. CNN is fake news. LOL
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@DoubleDD you are right, he’s not like any other president.
Yea I know. He actually does what he says he’d going to do. Isn’t it refreshing? LOL
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@DoubleDD He said he would discuss election meddling prior to the meeting, then omitted it from the agenda, and jumped to Putin’s defense, interjecting when reporters asked Putin about it.
You mean he actually does [only the things he wants to do that] he says he’s going to do?
The thing is, he could have come out of that meeting and said “we discussed the meddling, we know it happened, and we’ve agreed that it must stop” and this would have put Trump on the right side of the law. What he did was inexcusable, and speaks to the long shadow his ego casts over this summit. Either he feels that by acknowledging meddling he would be invalidating his presidency, or he is compromised, or he thinks that Vladimir Putin is his friend. Or maybe all three.
Robert Mueller is a Bush nominee. To suggest that the FBI has a liberal lean is just nonsensical. For Trump to side with Putin over American Intelligence is stupid, narcissistic and dangerous.
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As far as I know from watching the main media outlets. Trump did bring up/ask Putin about the meddling of US elections? In fact if i’m not mistaken Putin has agreed to investigate the 12 accused Russians. In his own way and on his own terms, with US oversight. I know funny stuff. I agree.
I think/feel the blow back is how trump has responded to the aftermath. Even fanning the fames in fellow Republicans. Almost comical to see the Reps and Dems finally agree on something. Don’t your think? smile.
I guess in retrospect I am accusing the FBI upper brass of playing politics. To be fair I’m basing this off what I see, and not so much off what this or that Media person is saying. It just seems quite obvious to me. That some foul play has or is taking place.
How is that Hillary walks free when there is mountain of evidence that she willfully broke the law? If you or I would have done what she had. We would already be in jail. Yet this same FBI that gave Hillary a free pass. Is willing to throw Trump under the bus without any real evidence. Sure the FBI has found a few infractions against the Trump team (none for Russian Collusion). However lets turn the FBI loose on your life or anybody for a year and half? Pretty sure they’ll find something. Nobody is without fault.
Look some people may not like Trump, but it’s a dangerous game when we as a nation subvert a sitting president because we don’t like him/her, or their policies. A very dangerous game indeed.
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As for Trump siding with Putin.
What is the answer? Are you suggesting a war with Russia? Ok count me in. Not a big fan of Russia, never have been. Their history if full of travesty, and abusers of human life. Even as far back when the DNC was calling Stalin old uncle Joe. A killer that was even worse than Hitler. Yet you won’t find that in the history books. LOL
Funny how time changes things. Just with the last president our country under the DNC leadership was bending over backwards to make friends with Russia and Putin. We had the reset button, had our DNC sitting president caught on tape telling a Russian Surrogate to tell Putin he can be more flexible in his second term. Also lets not forget it was under this DNC leadership that we sold Russia businesses a 3rd or our Uranium. Yet today this same DNC wants nothing to do with Russia or Putin.
Man how things do change indeed. LOL
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@DoubleDD Putin’s terms were for Russia to be allowed to interrogate Mueller’s team. It is rediculous that you would even consider that as a viable proposal.
There is nothing comical about this situation.
Re: FBI Brass, What do you see and are you going with your gut?
This isn’t about Hillary.
Yes Obama said he had more freedom in his second term to negotiate. Is that a surprise? Isn’t that always the case with politicians?
Your fact about Uranium is bogus. A company had ownership change, there is no evidence that Uranium went to Russia.
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If this isn’t the biggest pile of BS ever…
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nobody can believe that! More than 24 hrs after he said it and gloated about it? How dumb do they think we are?
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Well I believe it!!! what does that say? lol
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@DoubleDD after he read that from a script, he said dble d, send lots of money to crimsons!
, USA.
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I’m sorry but yes Hillary is apart of this. It was her unprotected server that started this a fact you continue to gloss over.
None of this happens if Hillary follows proper procedures. It’s kind of like pulling up in the ghetto and leaving your car running and the wallet in the console. If your stuff gets stolen whose fault is it really?
You do know it’s apart of Russia’s constitution not to hand over born citizens to foreign nations? Do you really expect Russia/Putin to hand over Russian hackers to the USA? No you don’t. So why get all bent out of shape?
This is all laughable.
Not to change the subject, but did you catch Obama’s recent speech on Strong arm government. Not to say I agree but the man can give a good speech.
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Oh you didn’t know I got a tax break. Heck yea. Go Trump. So the Check is in the mail. LMAO
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If her server was protected, would we be talking about this?
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@DoubleDD It’s astonishing and deeply depressed that Americans can be programmed to sympathize with Vladimir Putin over the law enforcement of their own country and yet here we are. It is a blue print for future abuse.
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We’re in the middle of a world war. It’s just being fought on a new theater – information. It’s hard to know who to believe when the messages from leaders change so quickly and we learn that governments have been sponsoring mis-information and meddling in other government elections for years. Rand Paul dismissed the concerns about Russian meddling in our election in an interview last night and then said that the US has been meddling in foreign elections for years… that everyone does it. I had not heard an official admit this before, but when you hear this kind of stuff it feels like we’re hypocrites. Then if you take the president saying one thing in front of Putin and then coming back here and taking it back, it makes you wonder how far the doublespeak can go.
We’re a long way from the time when we wondered what the definition of “is” is.
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@bskeet hypocrisy is a term that I think gets overused. You can’t say “we did x to group A so 20 years later x happening to us as perpetrated by group B is somehow more ok and if we object we are hypocrites.” Every situation should be evaluated on it’s own merits and context ideally.
We do not need to try to find an equilibrium of the opinions being offered by elected officials. If you want to find balance find center. True center, and stick to it. Not new center. Not somewhere where Russian meddling and Trump denial is in any way acceptable.
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@DoubleDD “He actually does what he says he’d going to do.”
I have to say, you seem to have a filter about DT. Did you forget his promise to release his tax returns?
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approxinfinity said:
@DoubleDD It’s astonishing and deeply depressed that Americans can be programmed to sympathize with Vladimir Putin over the law enforcement of their own country and yet here we are. It is a blue print for future abuse.
What American sympathizes with Putin? What Trump voters? Wow.
No what is astonishing is that the DNC and it’s followers can paint such a false perception without any true evidence or facts, all the while ignoring what was clearly an abuse of power of one of their own.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I guess?
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Well no ones perfect. LOL
Yet I do find it quite funny, that the heads of the DNC explodes every time he does something he said he was going to do.
On a more serious thought. I often wandered about the disclosure of tax returns. I get that is a time honored practice. Yet what does it really show? My thought is obviously there is no foul play. If there was wouldn’t the IRS have full knowledge of it, and disclose/take action? So I guess I don’t really see the point. What to look at some ones private info? Or to see how more money that person makes than I?
What is the voter really going to do? Oh their super rich can’t vote for them. Nope I can only vote for a poor person? Doesn’t really make sense to me. Other than it’s a time honored practice. Also has the disclosure of tax returns ever swing an election to one side the other? I guess I never found any such evidence in my research/readings.
I guess one can raise the issue of them not paying enough taxes. Yet doesn’t everybody try to find all the tax breaks they can find? Has there ever been an American that said no I don’t pay enough in taxes here’s more?
Just a few musings of mine.
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approxinfinity said:
@bskeet hypocrisy is a term that I think gets overused. You can’t say “we did x to group A so 20 years later x happening to us as perpetrated by group B is somehow more ok and if we object we are hypocrites.” Every situation should be evaluated on it’s own merits and context ideally.
We do not need to try to find an equilibrium of the opinions being offered by elected officials. If you want to find balance find center. True center, and stick to it. Not new center. Not somewhere where Russian meddling and Trump denial is in any way acceptable.
I totally disagree with this statement. So what are you really saying? That the party of slavery can erase their past by becoming the champion of the same people they used suppress. Ok maybe?
Yet how can a party do one thing, then yet demand something different from the opposing party. Is this not a double standard? Was it not to long ago that President Obama spoke and said that election meddling could not effect the outcome of an USA election? Which one is it. Why stand on one set of values yet change them when the opposing party is in power. Would this even be an issue if Hillary had won?
One doesn’t get to do what they want when their party is in power, and then flip a switch an then expect the opposing party to be judged on a different standard. Denying what the previous party did, said, and believed. That’s not democracy and that surely isn’t fair.
At the end of the day we are judged by our actions, and it appears to me at this point the DNC has a whole lot of explaining to do for the American people. The DNC rigged their own election process screwing over Bernie. The DNC has missing emails, smashed cell phones, and missing servers. Don’t think the American people know this? Yet we are just to roll over and believe everything the DNC says and does as an act of truth?
The DNC lost this last election just as much as Trump won it.
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@DoubleDD I am judging President Trump and his summit with Putin on the merits, and believe that it is likely we are witnessing the actions of a compromised asset, and that the Steele Dossier may have been truthful in saying that the Kremlin has been cultivating Trump for a long time, and that his sealed tax returns could reveal money laundering to Russia via real estate.
Do not mistake me for a democrat. I’m a rational humanist. And I am a globalist and a patriot.
I see Donald Trump as a threat to our democracy, and the deterioration of our alliances as a threat to all humanity.
So I frankly don’t give much weight to whether one party deserves something because the other party got to do something. That sort of schoolyard psychology does not really apply. Every situation should be evaluated on it’s own merits and context, and we should be attempting to do the right thing, always.
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Can’t say I agree with you, but at least your being honest.
I think there is a whole lot of corruption going on to just pin point one issue/party/person.
Would you care to debate why you think Trump is tainted goods? or should we move on?
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bskeet said:
We’re in the middle of a world war. It’s just being fought on a new theater – information.
This is so true.
A data hack can shut down critical systems for hours. Every year, businesses are hacked or have an information security breach. For businesses that have a security breach, many of the smaller ones are completely out of business within one year.
Identity theft is real. I am sure everyone on this board knows someone that has had to deal with identity theft, whether it was credit card fraud, bank account fraud or simple credit fraud.
This is a war being fought both domestically and internationally, but it isn’t getting nearly enough attention.
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@DoubleDD I don’t think its necessary. I think the facts will be presented soon enough.
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That disorienting feeling that we can’t tell what’s real and what’s fake is the new “fog of war”.
It’s that feeling that we don’t know who to believe, or what to trust, and I suspect the loss of our sense of ‘center’ (as @approxinfinity put it) is also a byproduct.
It used to be that only soldiers were subjected to this, but we’re all on the front-lines to some degree in this type of war.
What the enemy(s) of the US has/have learned is:
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Don’t engage the US in land, air or water because the US is prepared for battles there.
1b. Engage on a more level playing field, such as the internet which provides numerous fronts. Two that are being exploited: economics and rhetoric. So, there are attacks on the markets, tariff wars and manipulation through social media. As far as we know, the moon is not a likely battleground, but all the stuff in earth’s orbit is. -
Use America’s freedoms against them. Create disruptions that create an environment where Americans are willing to give up freedoms and don’t see it for what it is – slow erosion. In the shadow of 9/11, we capitulated numerous freedoms in the name of security. New limits have been imposed on the right to assembly in the wake of protests that degenerated into riots with hate speech. Voters recalled a judge because a group was outraged that a sentence was too lenient, thus subverting other mechanisms already in place to ensure the integrity of jurisprudence. Presidents have been exercising executive orders that undermine the legislative powers and process. Etc. My point is, the constitution, our bill of rights, the branches of our government and the social moires that have provided the foundation of this country are being eroded, often by our own hand, willingly. Lots of unintended consequences, lots of collateral damage in reaction to isolated events.
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Hide your tracks. The days of groups claiming responsibility for this or that is over. Boasting attracts heat. The new enemy prefers to operate more or less guerrilla-style in the shadows. The victim may not even realize they were cut until they are significantly impaired, let alone who cut them.
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bskeet said:
- Hide your tracks. The days of groups claiming responsibility for this or that is over. Boasting attracts heat. The new enemy prefers to operate more or less guerrilla-style in the shadows. The victim may not even realize they were cut until they are significantly impaired, let alone who cut them.
Excellent point. Beyond that, operate as a quasi-state.
One of the reasons the US has struggled in the war on terror is because there is no one to attack outright.
We weren’t attacked by Afghanistan. We were attacked by terrorist groups based in Afghanistan. Innocents are mixed with perpetrators.
The US military is designed to fight other national armies. It is not built to fight quasi states or non states. Guerrilla style groups aren’t confined to a specific bit of land. They move.
On the internet, its even worse. A hacking group can be in Russia today, Latvia tomorrow, Cyprus the next day, etc. They are moving faster than we have planned to react. The means used to attack can bounce around as well, pinging servers around the globe in seconds to initiate an attack, then fade back into the shadows before we even realize there was a breach.
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Given the amount of controversy the last couple of days stemming from the Trump-Putin meeting, this is why you do not meet one on one.
No one knows what was agreed to, and there’s no notes or written documentation to fall back on. All we have is whatever Trump and the interpreter remember. That’s poor practice.
