Anyone watching NBA Playoffs?
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@approxinfinity Just can’t seem to give him credit, can you? His only “hand-picked” all-star wasn’t even able to play game 7 or most of 6. And the “hand-picked” thing is actually a tribute to his planning since he has done this 8 straight seasons with two different franchises composed of 4 mostly different rosters. And “hand-picked” implies choosing from the whole NBA, but brilliant players available mid-season are few.
The only common element is Lebron. Your harping is reminiscent of people who complained about Babe Ruth striking out too much whenever someone was discussing his revolutionary power, or Wilt’s free throws whenever his 100 pt game or his amazing versatility are brought up. It just looks petty, like you are viewing Lebron’s career with a tightly focused hate lens.
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@JayHawkFanToo I am amazed you are griping about Lebron fouling while praising Marcus, who tried unsuccessfully to dump LBJ from behind with two hands squarely on his shoulders. No bb play at all, not even a swipe in the direction of the ball. Had LBJ done that, you would never stop lambasting him as a dirty player.
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@mayjay No, I just don’t like LeBron as a person, and I don’t feel like getting all mushy and celebrating his victories. It’s still a free country, right?
I responded to a specific comment by @BShark with a specific response. Did I make a sweeping generalization about LeBron like “He sucks” or “He’s overrated”? No.
Are you saying that I am required to bow down to LeBron first to qualify my comment?
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Are you asking about Marcus Smart or Marcus Morris? I simply indicated Marcus Morris had a good series and did not say LeBron is not a good player. All players commit fouls and they are called for it and some, like LeBron and Jordan, get away with a lot more than the average NBA player. Now, have you watched the entire series? Did you see how many ticky tack fouls were called on Marcus Morris? Did you see when he hit the 3 in game 6 and Love ran into him and they called the foul on Marcus and voided the 3? Had it been LeBron instead he would have gotten the foul and a flagrant called on the other player. Do you not think LeBron gets away with a heck of a lot more physical contact than most every other player in the League? If you don’t I have a nice waterfront property in Florida I can sell you.
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@approxinfinity No, your comment says it all. And it is a free country, which is why people are allowed to point out silly comments.
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@JayHawkFanToo Marcus Morris, who looked like he was trying to get a piggy back ride. And Lebron gets fouled far more than he fouls.
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Dear Sir,
Let’s return to the source of this confusion between us, which stemmed from @BShark saying that LeBron made it to the finals with his “sorry ass teammates”. If, by chance, he was being saracastic and he in fact feels that LeBron’s team is a good one, then ok for him, he and I are in agreement. If however, he actually believes that LeBron’s team sucks, then I feel the need to refute the comment, as clearly, LeBron has a STRONG seat at the table in defining the roster around him, and has had that power for a long time.
That was my point. I don’t like feeding into the media frenzy that wants to build a throne out of LeBron’s inferior teammates bones. To use @BShark’s term, it’s fan fiction, and the fans happen to include the media who are happy to debate endlessly about whether LeBron is the greatest. Which is a joke.
Michael Jordan left basketball in his PRIME after 3 consecutive titles, came back and had 3 MORE consecutive titles. LeBron is great, but he will never EVER be Michael Jordan. And the only way anyone can try to get him in the discussion is to talk shit about his teammates, which in my mind, is a really weak argument, considering LeBron has had a heavy hand in building those teams. Teams built around him.
So I call BS.
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Jordan never made it without Pippen. Ever. Never advanced to the Finals without Pippen and either Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman at PF.
Lebron’s All Star teammate (Kevin Love) basically missed all of games 6 and 7.
The truth is, Lebron surpassed Jordan probably two or three years ago. He won’t have the perfect finals record that Jordan did, but he surpassed him as a player.
A lot of people don’t like James because of The Decision, which was a dumb PR move. One stupid PR decision is all a lot of people have to base their dislike on, which is their right.
But as I have said in the past, to my knowledge, there has never been a news story about Lebron James breaking the law, cheating on his wife, not supporting his kids, drinking, carousing, etc. That’s pretty impressive for a guy that has spent the last decade and a half in the public eye. And the worst thing he ever has done was publicly switch jobs.
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@justanotherfan I’ve never liked LeBron, nor the media adulation he’s received. I’ve always found his interviews to be arrogant and hopelessly self centered. His posturing on the court annoys the crap out of me. His complaining to the refs annoys the crap out of me.
Champions win. If you explain his inability to do what Jordan did because he had inferior teammates, you’re making assumptions about LeBrons ability to play with better teammates, and that Jordan wouldn’t be able to win those seasons he won with different teammates. Remember that Grant and Pippen were drafted and developed into studs with Jordan. Meanwhile LeBron pulled the strings on getting Wiggins traded out of town instead of developing him, and Kyrie Irving didn’t want to stick around with LeBron. What does that say? My belief, which you may choose to reject, is that MJ was a much better teammate. The team is a reflection of a leader’s greatness.
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Tell me that running David Blatt out of town so you can hire Tyron Lue is what you do if you want to develop a team.
Can you imagine LeBron and Phil Jackson trying to get along?
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@approxinfinity Tyron Lue has a pretty good record unless you attribute his success solely to Lebron.
So, by the criticisms you levelled, you must hate Wilt, who was a big-time loser and who blamed teammates, as well as being a philanderer with a monster self-centered ego who believed he was better than Russell despite their records.
We have had this discussion before. And, as before, I just feel bad for you that you are blinded by your dislike so much that you cannot enjoy the simple pleasure of reveling in watching one of the greatest talents ever to play the game.
I know guys who refused to watch golf in Tiger’s heyday because of his arrogance. Others who always disparaged Gretzky because he let other guys do the hitting. People who hated Elway because of his threatening to play baseball to get away from having been drafted by the hapless Balt Colts.
In every case, some personal pique created a blind spot to enjoying brilliant, seldom to be repeated, sports performances.
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@mayjay I can’t stand him either, neither do my boys. Yes he’s great, still can’t stand him. I hated the way he treated Mario.
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@mayjay Is it so strange a notion that people want to root for likeable players? Why must one suspend reality in order to appreciate players? Are you sure that you aren’t the one with the irrational perspective here?
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@approxinfinity Rooting for or against players and teams is basic to fandom.
Not being able to appreciate greatness in your disliked players is beyond rooting. Especially based on comparisons made to MJ by other people, or what someone talks about in interviews when 95% of the subject matter is hrought up by the interviewers. Or because a player argues with refs, which is pretty much universal in the NBA. (Have you even watched all the other stars over the years? MJ was famous for it. And LBJ hasn’t tossed his mouthguard into the stands that I know of. Do you root for Curry?)
I don’t like lots of players in lots of sports, but I can still admire what they have done and don’t feel a need to take potshots when they achieve mind-blowing accomplishments.
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Yeah I don’t like Curry as well.
Not being able to appreciate greatness in your disliked players is beyond rooting.
I said LeBron was great; we are in agreement there.
I think this should apply to denying the greatness of his teammates as well. That’s the bone I pick with the world. And if people tear them down to prop LeBron up, well that’s a nasty business and I call BS. And if it’s part of the fiction people try to establish in order to slap on the “greatest” moniker which I believe it is, then I’ll go after that.
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If you read basically any book on Jordan, or just listen to his hall of fame speech, you will realize the type of person and teammate he is/ was. And the media fawned over Jordan as much as they do James. People fawn over greatness. The difference is that we always knew Lebron would be great.
With Jordan there’s the whole getting cut when he was a sophomore thing that fits in the “hard work” narrative. The reality is that had Jordan remained just 6-1, he doesn’t have the same career. He ends up being another Isiah Thomas, basically. Growing 5 inches is what made Jordan into Jordan.
We don’t have that with Lebron because there was never any doubt. The question was never if he would be great. It was how great. Lebron has lived up to every expectation.
The biggest difference with their teams is that the Collective bargaining agreement changed, meaning the way you build teams changed. Guys from the 90s claim they never would have teamed up the way players do now. The truth is that they couldn’t. Free agency did not function the same way. Contracts were longer. Teams had much more control.
Pippen and Grant did not just “develop” with Jordan. They were already studs. This isn’t a video game where an average talent can turn into a superstar. Basketball is the most unforgiving sport in that way. If you have a weakness, the game will exploit it, whether its size, stamina, explosiveness, athleticism, basketball IQ, shooting, defense, short arms, high hips, weak lower body, weak upper body, fragile feet, bad back, etc.
Lebron is an average free throw shooter. That is his weakness. That’s the full list. He’s average at one thing. He’s at least good at everything else, and elite at most of that. He can defend centers. He can defend point guards. He can play on or off the ball. He can post up. He can initiate the offense. He can rebound. He’s a tremendous shot blocker. He’s a great scorer.
Lebron led the revolution to positionless basketball because he is all of the positions. Built like a PF. Handles like a PG. Strong like a C. Athletic like a wing. Shoots like a SG. You can’t say that about Jordan, or Wilt, or Kareem, or Bird, or Magic.
Lebron is the greatest, most complete basketball player ever. In my opinion, its the lack of that clear weakness that makes people dislike him. He was never the short kid that got cut. He’s not smaller than this guy, or shorter than that guy, or weaker than that guy. He’s supposed to dominate. He does dominate. He was never cut. He never almost didn’t make it. He’s Hercules come to life - an impossible myth playing out before our eyes.
I get that KU fans don’t like that he yelled at a KU legend. Jordan punched and humiliated teammates in practice regularly. Had we had 24/7 coverage, the narrative might be different. But I’ve never heard of Lebron punching a teammate in practice.
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@justanotherfan really nice post. You’re probably right that I would not root for Jordan in today’s media spotlight, and might well find LeBron to be the more likeable of the two.
Would you say that the roster construction at Cleveland and Miami was elite? Would you consider that reflective of LeBron?
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@approxinfinity Yeah I’m not sure if anyone besides Love on the team is above replacement level.
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LeBron is great. Jordan is the GOAT.
The 7-10 year peak of great players is what I consider when talking about how good a player was. Both players have about a 10 year peak. Jordan’s peak is higher for the full 10 years. LeBron is off his peak for a couple of years now so you can compare the heights of their carreers. The advanced stats bear it out as well as the championships, Jordan was better at his peak than any one basketball player.
LeBron will likely end up with more win-shares due to the longevity of his career, but that’s like saying Tommy John should be in the hall of fame because he has nearly 300 wins, never mind that it took him 27 seasons.
LeBron is a great defender, but don’t forget Jordan was defensive player of the year. Jordan led the league in steals 3 of his peak seasons.
This doesn’t take away from LeBron he is undoubtedly the best player of this generation, but that brings up another point. 90’s basketball allowed hand checking, how much better would Jordan’s numbers be if you couldn’t have held him all game?
I’m not sure why comparing teammates matters. Isn’t the discussion who’s the greatest player, not who’s the greatest teammate (that’s probably Robert Horry with his 7 ships)?
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Cleveland’s roster construction has always been poor. Their front office has been mediocre since before Lebron came into the league. Other than Lebron and Kyrie, Cleveland has not selected a single All Star caliber player. Don’t forget, they picked Anthony Bennett with the #1 pick before Lebron returned. How much better would Cleveland have been with Irving and either Oladipo or Otto Porter? Not playoff caliber, but not terrible.
Obviously, that means they likely don’t get to draft Wiggins (who himself hasn’t developed into an All Star), but they probably do have the chance to pick later in the lottery. Maybe instead of trading for Love they have Irving, Tristan Thompson, Oladipo and either Aaron Gordon or Julius Randle. Or maybe they end up with Embiid instead. Think about that group for a second.
In Miami, they had some pretty incredible rosters that were assembled on the fly because Pat Riley knows what he is doing. Obviously, no one knew about Chris Bosh’s health issues, or he probably wouldn’t have been in the NBA since those issues ultimately forced him out of basketball (though he hasn’t officially retired). But Bosh, Wade and James, along with a host of players to surround him made for some brilliant teams.
The amazing thing about Lebron is that you don’t have to construct an ideal roster around him to win. You just have to put something around him because he can cover up most roster flaws. Build a roster with no real rebounding? He can compensate. No ball handling, he runs point. No other creators on the team? Run the offense through Lebron. Weak defensively? Put Lebron on the other team’s best player (especially earlier in his career). No depth? Lebron can play extended minutes. No roster flexibility? Lebron can just move from position to position.
He is no worse than average at every NBA level skill, so you have flexibility in how to build around him. The fact that Cleveland’s front office hasn’t been able to do that is telling - look at how poorly they drafted when Lebron was gone:
2011 - Kyrie Irving (good pick), Tristan Thompson (solid pick), Justin Harper (who?) and Milan Macvan (who?)
2012 - Dion Waiters (okay pick), Jared Cunningham (poor pick), Bernard James (typical second rounder), Jae Crowder (good pick). Cleveland traded Cunningham, James and Crowder for Tyler Zeller and Kelenna Azubuike.
2013 - Anthony Bennett (awful pick), Sergey Karasev (who?) Allen Crabbe (solid second rounder), Carrick Felix (who?)
2014 - Andrew Wiggins (solid pick), Joe Harris (okay second rounder).
Cleveland had 5 top four picks and they drafted one all star (Irving), plus two other good starters (Wiggins and Thompson), a rotation player (Waiters) and a starter for the Maine Red Claws (Bennett). They turned a bunch of second rounders and a couple later first rounders into basically nothing. That’s poor management.
Look at their picks after they drafted Lebron before he signed his extension in 2007:
Jason Kapono - 31st in 2003
Luke Jackson - 10th in 2004
Shannon Brown - 25th in 2006
Daniel Gibson - 42nd in 2006
Ejike Ugboaja - 55th in 2006
That’s it. That’s their full draft record. Cleveland’s draft record is horrible. If you want a look at a really sad list, you can see their full draft history here These ain’t the Spurs. These ain’t even the Bucks.
Cleveland nailed two picks in 15 years - Lebron and Kyrie. They did alright with Thompson, Wiggins, and Waiters. They whiffed on basically everyone else. Their best two second round picks were traded. That front office is atrocious. If they hadn’t won the Lebron lottery, chances are Cleveland would have a pretty long streak of missed playoffs, because their draft history doesn’t suggest they would have been able to put together winning teams by stringing together a few good drafts in a row to build a team.
Check out how the Bulls dynasty was built through the draft:
1987 - Horace Grant, 10th overall pick. They picked Olden Polynice 8th and dealt him and other picks to Seattle for some guy named Scottie Pippen. I think Chicago got the best of that deal.
1988 - Will Perdue 11th overall. Went on to be the backup center on many of those title squads.
1989 - BJ Armstrong (18th) and Stacey King (6th). Armstrong was the starting PG for the first three titles. King was a rotation player.
1990 - Toni Kukoc 29th overall. Was the 6th man on the second threepeat teams.
Chicago drafted two of the other four starters for their first set of titles, plus traded for the draft rights to their second best player during that stretch and drafted two other rotation guys and had the foresight to get a guy that would help them win three more titles.
Chicago wasn’t unbeatable because of Jordan. It was because they nailed four consecutive drafts starting in 1987, plus made the Pippen trade. They acquired five of their top 7 non Jordan players as rookies, then had the foresight to trade for a veteran center (Bill Cartwright) and a secondary shooter (John Paxson).
The Bulls signed Paxson as a free agent in 1985, understanding that they could use a shooter opposite Jordan in the backcourt, and traded Charles Oakley (a guy they got in a draft day trade) for Cartwright in 1988 once they knew the rest of the roster (Paxson-Jordan-Pippen-Grant) was in place.
Chicago had a plan (surround a young Michael Jordan with defenders, rebounders and shooters). Cleveland did not. Look at the roster again. If Chicago had never drafted Jordan, they would still have been a playoff team given those acquisitions. Not a championship team, but certainly playoff caliber. Cleveland would have been hopeless.
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How much more dominant a defender would peak Lebron have been if allowed to hand check with his strength and quickness?
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Lebron led the revolution to positionless basketball because he is all of the positions.
Sorry but that revolution was started by Magic who normally played PG and every other position and in the series against the Celtic he played Center when Kareem was injured. LeBron might be the stronger player but Magic could do it all…and very well as well.
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mayjay said:
@JayHawkFanToo Marcus Morris, who looked like he was trying to get a piggy back ride. And Lebron gets fouled far more than he fouls.
You are kidding, right? LeBron does not get called for most of the fouls he commits and when they call a foul he is always complaining to the refs; he lowers his shoulder and pushes into the defender and that is the definition of a charge. He is without a doubt one of the bigger if not the biggest whiner in the League.
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@mayjay said:
Rooting for or against players and teams is basic to fandom.
…and yet you seem to have a problem when others do not root for a player you like.
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@mayjay Why do you feel sorry for him? Maybe he loves to hate LeBron. One can derive just as much joy rooting against a perceived evil as rooting for the good guy.
I.e. The Raiders are only fun to bash when they’re good. But that doesn’t stop me from enjoying every Chiefs wunnover them.
What I feel sorry for are the LeBron apologists who can’t enjoy him unless everyone else appreciates LBJ to the exact same extent they do. Haters are going to hate, don’t let that ruin your fun.
Edit this is in response to a really old post as it turns out. May have been answered already.
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@justanotherfan No doubt James would be a better defender, but that doesn’t make him defensive player of the year. He’s judged against guys playing under the same rules.
My turn how many less points per game would LBJ have scored against 90s defense? 3-5 less per night?
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@JayHawkFanToo Wrong.
Rooting against a team or player is natural. Refusing to recognize greatness is blind.
I challenge you to figure out why so many people here love and admire Wilt but cannot stand LBJ, citing as their reason the exact same characteristics the Stilt displayed for decades. Arrogance, self-aggrandizement? Wilt’s was unmatched in BB history. Roster manipulation? Ask Elgin Baylor how his time in LA ended. Failure to win the big one too often? Wilt won less in more seasons against a league half its current size. And LBJ’s personal morality is unquestioned, while Wilt’s just makes most of us shudder.
Hating a player for whatever reason happens all the time. I hate Grayson Allen–but it doesn’t stop me from seeing how damned good he can be. And if someone likes him, I don’t try to piss all over their fandom, however misguided.
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Again, you are taking everybody’s words out of context. I never said, nor I remember anyone else saying that LeBron is not good or even great; he is at this time without question the best player in the League with maybe Durant being close. However, this does not mean that he must be universally liked; in my opinion, he is an arrogant whiner that has thrown teammates and coaches under the bus and gets preferential treatment from the refs like most of the great players do, Jordan certainly did.
There are lots of players that are great and I don’t care for and others that are not nearly as good that I like…what’s wrong with that?
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LeBron is the best player, coach and GM in basketball. Traded away half of the team mid-season, missing K-Love and still got this team to the Finals for the 8th straight time. Just unreal.
Every great player is a jerk or a complainer on the court. LBJ is no different. And he is a better person off the court than 99% of the greats. He is a jerk to the media and he is hard on his teammates. That doesn’t make him a bad person, but feel free to think differently.
I’m glad that we actually have a great athlete for young people to look up to who isn’t a womanizer, seems to be a great father, appears to be generous, and attempts to stand up for what he sees as equality. I feel the exact same way about Steph. These guys have more exposure and are put under a microscope at the same time. Yet, from what I can see, they appear to be morally upstanding individuals.
I honestly can’t find any reason why people find LBJ to be more of a jerk than any of the other greats. Sans Tim Duncan, who seems to be the nicest and most humble player ever.
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Some numbers:
Charles Barkley - 6-6, 250
Scottie Pippen - 6-8, 210
Karl Malone - 6-9, 250
Larry Bird - 6-9, 220
Magic Johnson - 6-9, 215
James Worthy - 6-9, 225
That’s six HOF players, all of whom were forwards (except Magic). Lebron is 6-8, 250 for reference. So he’s roughly the size of Karl Malone, except with the passing skills of Magic, Pippen’s defense, Bird’s scoring ability and the speed of a guard. And remember, in the 90’s, you could not play any type of zone defense, so it was a true man to man, with nobody allowed to sag off their guy to help and protect the middle like you can now. Pippen was an excellent defender, but not big and strong enough to keep a guy like Lebron from backing him down in the post. He’s giving away 40 pounds. Lebron has the quickness advantage on Barkley and Malone, and neither of those guys can overpower him at his size. Worthy, Johnson and Bird are also too small to handle him, particularly Magic at his playing weight, and probably are giving away a speed advantage as well.
Who from the 90’s can guard Lebron, even handchecking him? He’s too strong for the small forwards, too quick for any of the power forwards out on the perimeter. And without being able to send help until he catches the ball, Lebron would feast with his basketball IQ.
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First, it was the 1980 Finals against the Sixers. That’s an important detail for my next point.
Second, while Magic Johnson jumped center for the Lakers, he did not guard Sixers center Darryl Dawkins (aka Chocolate Thunder). He guarded his usual assignment (Lionel Hollins). Jim Chones matched up with Dawkins and held him to just four rebounds. Every game recap notes that Chones, not Johnson, was matched up with Dawkins.
Magic may have jumped center, but Chones played center.
Lebron doesn’t jump center, but he has guarded every position in basketball, from PG (thinking of his defense on Derrick Rose in the 2011 ECF) to PF/C (I remember him matched up with Tim Duncan in the Finals more than once).
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@justanotherfan lol
Jordan couldn’t guard Shaq but that didn’t make O’Neil the best player ever either. Look at PER or any of the advanced stats or don’t if you want LBJ to still be the GOAT in your mind.
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If you want to go subjective put Jordan in place of LeBron and vice versa. I feel with 100% certainty that Michael would’ve won 4 straight in Miami and
3 of 4 vs GS. I dont think LBJ can match Jordan’s 6/6. I do think Oakley and Ewing would make him their bitch and he’d be at best 4 of 6 in Chicago. Or possibly 5 of 8 with no baseball hiatus.
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Imagine 76ers lineup with LBJ next season…
- PG: Simmons
- SG: Reddick
- SF: James
- PF: Saric
- C: Embiid
Bench:
- 10th overall pick
- McConnell
- Fultz
- Illyasova
I’m drooling. If I am interpreting rules correctly, the 76ers could sign LBJ and then use the mid-level exception on JJ Redick and the only thing they would have to do is find a way to get someone to take Jerrod Bayless’ contract.They could probably package it with the 26th pick and get a taker. I believe that at that point they would be able to get a Bird exception on JJ, Designate LBJ and do an Early - Bird deal with Simmons to keep that core together for years. Losing on Saric at a time where LBJ would naturally slide into the 4 as he ages.
If LBJ wins this finals, he probably stays in Cleveland. If not, I would be he ends up in Philly. And I would love every second of it.
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The fact that Jordan couldn’t guard Shaq doesn’t make Shaq better, but the fact that Lebron could guard probably every player in NBA history makes him certainly the most versatile player in history.
I’ve always enjoyed the Lebron or Jordan debate because there are so many elements to it, including the difference in era and style, the difference in focus, etc.
If they switched places, I think James ends up in much the same place, BTW. Bulls never get Grant and Pippen because by 1987 James has pulled them basically even with Boston and Detroit (similar to how he went to the Finals in 2007 in Cleveland). That costs the Bulls draft position and they end up with different players, never surrounding James with the supporting cast.
James’ versatility is his blessing and curse. Because he can do it all (and make up for teammate shortcomings), he makes an otherwise below average team average to good. Jordan raised the level of play for the Bulls to be certain, but at no point were they at the same level as the mid to late 80’s Celtics and Pistons.
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@dylans Your PER argument when broken down completely simply isn’t a very good argument.
First, Jordan wasn’t in the league until 21. A huge advantage for Jordan.
Second, PER is subjective in the way in which the formula for it is written. The way it weights things completely changes the output. Had it been weighted heavier for assists or rebounds, LBJ would be the leader.
Third, They are within one-tenth of a standard deviation from each other. Meaning, the smallest variable (rules) could sway it one way or the other. A standard deviation in this data set is roughly 2.34 PER points. They are .23 PER points from each other.
Fourth, PER has no way of calculating the impact of a teammate’s ability. Nor the GM or Coach’s ability at finding, developing or gameplanning.
Fifth, because of Jordan’s strange career path, you can hardly compare the two fairly. Jordan’s decline could have easily brought his PER down enough to make a difference. We only have the two years when he was with the Wizards. He could have posted in the upper 20s, but just as easily he could have posted several years of 25 or worse, lowering his career PER.
Because of this, the PER argument is simply not a good basis for comparing the two against each other.
I do think it shows just how much better they were than the rest of the field. I also think it shows just how close the two are to each other, and how I can see why people think one may be better than the other. It is amazing how dominant they both were in their own era.
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I’m talking PER at their peak not over their whole career. This favors James as there are more years to chose from. Jordan’s peak is higher making him the best player ever during his peak. If you want to argue that LeBron has more impact over his total career I’d listen to that argument, but it’s not how I personally determine whom I think I is best basketball player.
@kcmatt7 I figured this would bring you out of retirement. I’m still waiting on a persuasive argument that actually breaks out stats and isn’t purely subjective in the support of LeBron being better than Jordan or even Julius Erving at their peak.
Or if you do t like advanced stats Jordan led the league in scoring all 10 of his peak years Lebronninly once in his 10 peak years.
Disadvantage for Jordan being he missed 2 peak years to play baseball or his peak would be even higher.
I was just picking Per since it’s a stat I didn’t make up. What advanced stats do you prefer?
@justanotherfan I don’t think LeBron would stand a chance at guarding Jordan or Shaq or Kyrie. I’m not buying the he can guard anyone argument. Where’s the hardware?
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Let’s try another barometer of the Pinacle of success then. Who was he finals mvp during Jordan’s 6 trips? Who was the finals during Lebrons 8 trips?
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Jordan won all six Finals MVPs.
Lebron has won three (all three times his team won).
The only player from a losing team to ever win was Jerry West, who averaged 38 points, 7.4 assists and 4.7 rebounds per game in a losing effort the very first year the award was given.
Lebron probably should have won the award in 2015, when he averaged 35.8 points (Curry averaged the next most at 26), 13.3 rebounds (Tristan Thompson was next, averaging 13), and 8.8 assists (Curry averaged 6.3) in a losing effort, but the award went to Andre Iguodala, who averaged 16/6/4 while guarding Lebron.
Kevin Durant deservedly won last year. Dirk Nowitzki deservedly won in 2011. Tony Parker won in 2007 when Lebron played poorly. Lebron was legitimately overmatched by the Spurs in 2007, as they forced him to be both inefficient and ineffective.
The interesting thing is that since 2012, Lebron or the player primarily matched up with him has won the Finals MVP. That’s how important Lebron is. If your team beats his team, the guy guarding him is the MVP.
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@justanotherfan I really don’t have the desire to get heavily into these GOAT discussions, but I find a lot of your posts are very on point.
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@justanotherfan Correct 6 of 6 vs 3 of 8. Notice a trend? Jordan didn’t lose.
There isn’t single stat I’ve seen to support LeBron as being better than Jordan at their respective peaks. Until someone manufactures one I don’t feel any need to counter.
LeBron is the third best player ever. I hope that isn’t taken as a slight…but LBJ fans will take it as such, even though it’s high praise.
I’m saying he’s better than Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kobe… everyone but Dr. J and the guy everyone (even #23 wearing James) wants to be like, Mike.
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@dylans I don’t like advanced stats in this arguments at all simply because the two are so hard to compare due to Jordan’s strange career.
And with that, I think I’ll go back in to “hibernation” until October if I can make it that long.
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@Kcmatt7 The time off isn’t an issue for me. It’s the charmin soft players and rules of this generation that make the eras impossible to completely compare.
Enjoy your time away. I hope it brings about a refreshed viewpoint on our Hawks with the unbridled enthusiasm equal to which you are willing to defend LeBron!
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Sounds like you read recaps of the game and did not watch the actual game. Magic played all positions during the game including center and was matched with Caldwell Jones (6’-11”, 215) who was also listed as Center for the Sixers. Many consider his performance the best ever of any player in a final. He continued playing multiple position throughout his career long before LeBron which was the jest of my original post.
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I have watched the game quite a bit actually. It happened before I was born, but ESPN Classic is awesome.
The Sixers started a big lineup with Jones and Dawkins up front with Doc. Hollins and Cheeks were in the backcourt. The Lakers normal lineup was Magic, Kareem, Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes (underrated player) and Chones to match Philly inside. When Kareem went down, LA plugged Michael Cooper in at a forward spot to start. Cooper was a great defender that could match up with Erving and give Wilkes a break on that end.
Caldwell Jones wasn’t as physical as Dawkins, so the Lakers put Magic on him some, although Magic also matched up with Hollins. Remember, Magic was only an average defensive player, so LA often hid him on lesser offensive players on D. In the backcourt that was Hollins - Cheeks would have shredded him. Up front, it was Caldwell Jones since either Dawkins or Dr. J would have gone crazy on Magic.
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Tuned in at the start of OT last night after LeBron had basically given up but caught up on the highlights. Draymond Green may be the most annoying player in the league, and between KD joining them and the evolution of Draymond Greens taunting, I really don’t care for Golden State [Klay Thompson is a quality dude]. I appreciated that LeBron didn’t say anything with lasting bite to it about Smith’s bonehead play. That was a tough one to swallow I’m sure.
While the Stanley Cup is a lot more appealing atm I think I’m rooting for LeBron here. Alright Hercules. Let’s see what you got.
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NOPE
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@approxinfinity I couldn’t believe the way regulation ended. Hill missing a free throw and Smith with his head waaaay up his keister. LeBron was crying about his wasted effort. (Rightfully so- his teammates and the refs robbed him)
12th 50 point game of James career.
Sums it up.
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The last three minutes of regulation were equal parts exceptional and bizarre. I don’t think I have ever seen so much physical play allowed, and so many exceptional plays made, while at the same time seeing incredibly simple mistakes by both teams. Curry over threw Durant on a basic entry pass. Smith dribbling the ball out. Easy missed shots.
I think both the teams and the officials were fatigued at the end of regulation. Lebron played 48 minutes (of 53 possible), but the Warriors main guys also played a bunch. Durant and Curry both played 46 minutes. Green played 47. Thompson played 45 (and he missed time with that injury in the first half). This series may end up being a war of attrition because I don’t think either team can go to their bench very much, which could lead to some weird endings when fatigue starts to set in.
