Anyone watching NBA Playoffs?
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Duke has a proud tradition of having dirty players. If you look a the list of all-time most hated players in college basketball, it is full of Duke players.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Embid is smarter than most players he faces. To me, he is simply on another level pushing levers, and getting inside other team’s heads. He plays his opponents like a violin. Then he stomps them on the court.
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Philly gets a good road win to push to a 3-1 lead. I actually enjoyed watching as I usually do when Philly is playing. Joel had a tough game with 8 turnovers (team had 25) but still managed a double double and some huge blocks in the forth. I was impressed with Wade, dudes well past his prime but still lead his team in scoring and dam near pulled it out for them. JJ Redick is one of the former hated dookies on Philly, but I don’t hes in the same category as Allen and CL, I don’t remember him being anywhere near as dirty.
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No. Tried one game and it was like watching NIKE NOVA with quarters!
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@BShark lololol so good
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@jaybate-1.0 I’ve watched a good portion of the Philly games. Watching live on the rest hasn’t retained my interest as much as the box scores and storylines.
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@BShark I will bet that practically every talking head/writer has made just as bad predictions as that clown. It’s what they do.They are educated way beyond their intelligence. Professional know nothings. Mirotic, along with the Rondo resurrection, and AD finally becoming the true focal point has made the Pelicans into a better team than when they were running the twin towers before Cousins got hurt. Thank God Dedric can shoot a 3, or I might say the same thing about us next with a Doke/Dedric stack.
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@KUSTEVE Boogie made 2.2 threes pg this year. Davis .7 … I agree they seem to playing better ball but I haven’t watched them closely to have a good sense of it.
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approxinfinity said:
@KUSTEVE Boogie made 2.2 threes pg this year. Davis .7 … I agree they seem to playing better ball but I haven’t watched them closely to have a good sense of it.
Holiday and Davis played better off each other in that Portland series than I’ve ever seen them do before.
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Holiday and Davis both being healthy has allowed New Orleans to play to their talent level. I had forgotten how good Jrue Holiday was.
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Well it’s good to see some things never change lol. - -BOTH Markeiff and Marcus got Technicals in their games
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Kelly 2 big free throws - & a key steal to end the game - -TIED 2-2
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I have to say that I’ve really enjoyed watching a few of the NBA playoff games. I just watch our guys and just like when they were in Jayhawk uniforms, I cringe every time they miss a FT or make a turnover. It was fun watching Oubre and Markeiff finish yesterday’s win. Does anyone else hold their breath when Joel has the ball at the top of the key? He can really look awkward at times. But, he’s a savant on defense. I don’t know how he gets up and down the court with that huge Morris-like chip on his shoulder. RCJH
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JJ Redick has played in 12 post seasons? I hate Duke (goes without saying) and I mocked Redick mercilessly when I could (like about the man purse he sported around when he first joined the league) but the dude has had a helluva NBA career and I’ve grown to really appreciate him. One of the few good Dukies, maybe…
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@approxinfinity My buddy has a dog named Redick, not how I pronounce it though, I may add an extra d in the middle. lol More descriptive that way, besides I still don’t like JJ (gotta be the Duke affiliation).
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Redick is in every list of most hated college players of all time and he has admitted that in college he was at times a real a-hole and now he feels bad about it.
No doubt he has had a very good career and he is one the most consistent and reliable long range shooters in the League.
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Maybe Philly will draft Svi as Redick’s replacement, the way Svi is shooting it these days.
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Svi is still 2 or 3 years away from understanding how to get open at the level that will allow him to tap into his full shooting potential. He will not be an immediate replacement. With some time he could be replacement down the road for a great shooter.
He also needs to improve his off the dribble game so that people can’t just bury up into him on the perimeter. This will give him space to get his shots off in the NBA.
I think Svi spends next year in the G League.
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Lebron still at the top of his game. Back to the Finals again.
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justanotherfan said:
Lebron still at the top of his game. Back to the Finals again.
Drug a bunch of sorry ass players to the NBA finals.
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I have not seen any player since Jordan that gets away with as much as Lebron does; he gets his shoulder down and plows over players and no fouls are called. Rozier really gave the game away, he was 2-14 from the field and 0-10 from 3 and kept shooting from outside on a night he could not hit anything and should have deferred to other players. After the third or fourth miss I cringed every time he shot and sure enough he missed.
Marcus had a good game and Markieff was on the sidelines wearing a KU Jersey.
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@BShark a bunch of sorry ass players that he hand picked.
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@approxinfinity Just can’t seem to give him credit, can you? His only “hand-picked” all-star wasn’t even able to play game 7 or most of 6. And the “hand-picked” thing is actually a tribute to his planning since he has done this 8 straight seasons with two different franchises composed of 4 mostly different rosters. And “hand-picked” implies choosing from the whole NBA, but brilliant players available mid-season are few.
The only common element is Lebron. Your harping is reminiscent of people who complained about Babe Ruth striking out too much whenever someone was discussing his revolutionary power, or Wilt’s free throws whenever his 100 pt game or his amazing versatility are brought up. It just looks petty, like you are viewing Lebron’s career with a tightly focused hate lens.
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@JayHawkFanToo I am amazed you are griping about Lebron fouling while praising Marcus, who tried unsuccessfully to dump LBJ from behind with two hands squarely on his shoulders. No bb play at all, not even a swipe in the direction of the ball. Had LBJ done that, you would never stop lambasting him as a dirty player.
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@mayjay No, I just don’t like LeBron as a person, and I don’t feel like getting all mushy and celebrating his victories. It’s still a free country, right?
I responded to a specific comment by @BShark with a specific response. Did I make a sweeping generalization about LeBron like “He sucks” or “He’s overrated”? No.
Are you saying that I am required to bow down to LeBron first to qualify my comment?
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Are you asking about Marcus Smart or Marcus Morris? I simply indicated Marcus Morris had a good series and did not say LeBron is not a good player. All players commit fouls and they are called for it and some, like LeBron and Jordan, get away with a lot more than the average NBA player. Now, have you watched the entire series? Did you see how many ticky tack fouls were called on Marcus Morris? Did you see when he hit the 3 in game 6 and Love ran into him and they called the foul on Marcus and voided the 3? Had it been LeBron instead he would have gotten the foul and a flagrant called on the other player. Do you not think LeBron gets away with a heck of a lot more physical contact than most every other player in the League? If you don’t I have a nice waterfront property in Florida I can sell you.
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@approxinfinity No, your comment says it all. And it is a free country, which is why people are allowed to point out silly comments.
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@JayHawkFanToo Marcus Morris, who looked like he was trying to get a piggy back ride. And Lebron gets fouled far more than he fouls.
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Dear Sir,
Let’s return to the source of this confusion between us, which stemmed from @BShark saying that LeBron made it to the finals with his “sorry ass teammates”. If, by chance, he was being saracastic and he in fact feels that LeBron’s team is a good one, then ok for him, he and I are in agreement. If however, he actually believes that LeBron’s team sucks, then I feel the need to refute the comment, as clearly, LeBron has a STRONG seat at the table in defining the roster around him, and has had that power for a long time.
That was my point. I don’t like feeding into the media frenzy that wants to build a throne out of LeBron’s inferior teammates bones. To use @BShark’s term, it’s fan fiction, and the fans happen to include the media who are happy to debate endlessly about whether LeBron is the greatest. Which is a joke.
Michael Jordan left basketball in his PRIME after 3 consecutive titles, came back and had 3 MORE consecutive titles. LeBron is great, but he will never EVER be Michael Jordan. And the only way anyone can try to get him in the discussion is to talk shit about his teammates, which in my mind, is a really weak argument, considering LeBron has had a heavy hand in building those teams. Teams built around him.
So I call BS.
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Jordan never made it without Pippen. Ever. Never advanced to the Finals without Pippen and either Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman at PF.
Lebron’s All Star teammate (Kevin Love) basically missed all of games 6 and 7.
The truth is, Lebron surpassed Jordan probably two or three years ago. He won’t have the perfect finals record that Jordan did, but he surpassed him as a player.
A lot of people don’t like James because of The Decision, which was a dumb PR move. One stupid PR decision is all a lot of people have to base their dislike on, which is their right.
But as I have said in the past, to my knowledge, there has never been a news story about Lebron James breaking the law, cheating on his wife, not supporting his kids, drinking, carousing, etc. That’s pretty impressive for a guy that has spent the last decade and a half in the public eye. And the worst thing he ever has done was publicly switch jobs.
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@justanotherfan I’ve never liked LeBron, nor the media adulation he’s received. I’ve always found his interviews to be arrogant and hopelessly self centered. His posturing on the court annoys the crap out of me. His complaining to the refs annoys the crap out of me.
Champions win. If you explain his inability to do what Jordan did because he had inferior teammates, you’re making assumptions about LeBrons ability to play with better teammates, and that Jordan wouldn’t be able to win those seasons he won with different teammates. Remember that Grant and Pippen were drafted and developed into studs with Jordan. Meanwhile LeBron pulled the strings on getting Wiggins traded out of town instead of developing him, and Kyrie Irving didn’t want to stick around with LeBron. What does that say? My belief, which you may choose to reject, is that MJ was a much better teammate. The team is a reflection of a leader’s greatness.
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Tell me that running David Blatt out of town so you can hire Tyron Lue is what you do if you want to develop a team.
Can you imagine LeBron and Phil Jackson trying to get along?
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@approxinfinity Tyron Lue has a pretty good record unless you attribute his success solely to Lebron.
So, by the criticisms you levelled, you must hate Wilt, who was a big-time loser and who blamed teammates, as well as being a philanderer with a monster self-centered ego who believed he was better than Russell despite their records.
We have had this discussion before. And, as before, I just feel bad for you that you are blinded by your dislike so much that you cannot enjoy the simple pleasure of reveling in watching one of the greatest talents ever to play the game.
I know guys who refused to watch golf in Tiger’s heyday because of his arrogance. Others who always disparaged Gretzky because he let other guys do the hitting. People who hated Elway because of his threatening to play baseball to get away from having been drafted by the hapless Balt Colts.
In every case, some personal pique created a blind spot to enjoying brilliant, seldom to be repeated, sports performances.
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@mayjay I can’t stand him either, neither do my boys. Yes he’s great, still can’t stand him. I hated the way he treated Mario.
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@mayjay Is it so strange a notion that people want to root for likeable players? Why must one suspend reality in order to appreciate players? Are you sure that you aren’t the one with the irrational perspective here?
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@approxinfinity Rooting for or against players and teams is basic to fandom.
Not being able to appreciate greatness in your disliked players is beyond rooting. Especially based on comparisons made to MJ by other people, or what someone talks about in interviews when 95% of the subject matter is hrought up by the interviewers. Or because a player argues with refs, which is pretty much universal in the NBA. (Have you even watched all the other stars over the years? MJ was famous for it. And LBJ hasn’t tossed his mouthguard into the stands that I know of. Do you root for Curry?)
I don’t like lots of players in lots of sports, but I can still admire what they have done and don’t feel a need to take potshots when they achieve mind-blowing accomplishments.
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Yeah I don’t like Curry as well.
Not being able to appreciate greatness in your disliked players is beyond rooting.
I said LeBron was great; we are in agreement there.
I think this should apply to denying the greatness of his teammates as well. That’s the bone I pick with the world. And if people tear them down to prop LeBron up, well that’s a nasty business and I call BS. And if it’s part of the fiction people try to establish in order to slap on the “greatest” moniker which I believe it is, then I’ll go after that.
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If you read basically any book on Jordan, or just listen to his hall of fame speech, you will realize the type of person and teammate he is/ was. And the media fawned over Jordan as much as they do James. People fawn over greatness. The difference is that we always knew Lebron would be great.
With Jordan there’s the whole getting cut when he was a sophomore thing that fits in the “hard work” narrative. The reality is that had Jordan remained just 6-1, he doesn’t have the same career. He ends up being another Isiah Thomas, basically. Growing 5 inches is what made Jordan into Jordan.
We don’t have that with Lebron because there was never any doubt. The question was never if he would be great. It was how great. Lebron has lived up to every expectation.
The biggest difference with their teams is that the Collective bargaining agreement changed, meaning the way you build teams changed. Guys from the 90s claim they never would have teamed up the way players do now. The truth is that they couldn’t. Free agency did not function the same way. Contracts were longer. Teams had much more control.
Pippen and Grant did not just “develop” with Jordan. They were already studs. This isn’t a video game where an average talent can turn into a superstar. Basketball is the most unforgiving sport in that way. If you have a weakness, the game will exploit it, whether its size, stamina, explosiveness, athleticism, basketball IQ, shooting, defense, short arms, high hips, weak lower body, weak upper body, fragile feet, bad back, etc.
Lebron is an average free throw shooter. That is his weakness. That’s the full list. He’s average at one thing. He’s at least good at everything else, and elite at most of that. He can defend centers. He can defend point guards. He can play on or off the ball. He can post up. He can initiate the offense. He can rebound. He’s a tremendous shot blocker. He’s a great scorer.
Lebron led the revolution to positionless basketball because he is all of the positions. Built like a PF. Handles like a PG. Strong like a C. Athletic like a wing. Shoots like a SG. You can’t say that about Jordan, or Wilt, or Kareem, or Bird, or Magic.
Lebron is the greatest, most complete basketball player ever. In my opinion, its the lack of that clear weakness that makes people dislike him. He was never the short kid that got cut. He’s not smaller than this guy, or shorter than that guy, or weaker than that guy. He’s supposed to dominate. He does dominate. He was never cut. He never almost didn’t make it. He’s Hercules come to life - an impossible myth playing out before our eyes.
I get that KU fans don’t like that he yelled at a KU legend. Jordan punched and humiliated teammates in practice regularly. Had we had 24/7 coverage, the narrative might be different. But I’ve never heard of Lebron punching a teammate in practice.
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@justanotherfan really nice post. You’re probably right that I would not root for Jordan in today’s media spotlight, and might well find LeBron to be the more likeable of the two.
Would you say that the roster construction at Cleveland and Miami was elite? Would you consider that reflective of LeBron?
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@approxinfinity Yeah I’m not sure if anyone besides Love on the team is above replacement level.
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LeBron is great. Jordan is the GOAT.
The 7-10 year peak of great players is what I consider when talking about how good a player was. Both players have about a 10 year peak. Jordan’s peak is higher for the full 10 years. LeBron is off his peak for a couple of years now so you can compare the heights of their carreers. The advanced stats bear it out as well as the championships, Jordan was better at his peak than any one basketball player.
LeBron will likely end up with more win-shares due to the longevity of his career, but that’s like saying Tommy John should be in the hall of fame because he has nearly 300 wins, never mind that it took him 27 seasons.
LeBron is a great defender, but don’t forget Jordan was defensive player of the year. Jordan led the league in steals 3 of his peak seasons.
This doesn’t take away from LeBron he is undoubtedly the best player of this generation, but that brings up another point. 90’s basketball allowed hand checking, how much better would Jordan’s numbers be if you couldn’t have held him all game?
I’m not sure why comparing teammates matters. Isn’t the discussion who’s the greatest player, not who’s the greatest teammate (that’s probably Robert Horry with his 7 ships)?
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Cleveland’s roster construction has always been poor. Their front office has been mediocre since before Lebron came into the league. Other than Lebron and Kyrie, Cleveland has not selected a single All Star caliber player. Don’t forget, they picked Anthony Bennett with the #1 pick before Lebron returned. How much better would Cleveland have been with Irving and either Oladipo or Otto Porter? Not playoff caliber, but not terrible.
Obviously, that means they likely don’t get to draft Wiggins (who himself hasn’t developed into an All Star), but they probably do have the chance to pick later in the lottery. Maybe instead of trading for Love they have Irving, Tristan Thompson, Oladipo and either Aaron Gordon or Julius Randle. Or maybe they end up with Embiid instead. Think about that group for a second.
In Miami, they had some pretty incredible rosters that were assembled on the fly because Pat Riley knows what he is doing. Obviously, no one knew about Chris Bosh’s health issues, or he probably wouldn’t have been in the NBA since those issues ultimately forced him out of basketball (though he hasn’t officially retired). But Bosh, Wade and James, along with a host of players to surround him made for some brilliant teams.
The amazing thing about Lebron is that you don’t have to construct an ideal roster around him to win. You just have to put something around him because he can cover up most roster flaws. Build a roster with no real rebounding? He can compensate. No ball handling, he runs point. No other creators on the team? Run the offense through Lebron. Weak defensively? Put Lebron on the other team’s best player (especially earlier in his career). No depth? Lebron can play extended minutes. No roster flexibility? Lebron can just move from position to position.
He is no worse than average at every NBA level skill, so you have flexibility in how to build around him. The fact that Cleveland’s front office hasn’t been able to do that is telling - look at how poorly they drafted when Lebron was gone:
2011 - Kyrie Irving (good pick), Tristan Thompson (solid pick), Justin Harper (who?) and Milan Macvan (who?)
2012 - Dion Waiters (okay pick), Jared Cunningham (poor pick), Bernard James (typical second rounder), Jae Crowder (good pick). Cleveland traded Cunningham, James and Crowder for Tyler Zeller and Kelenna Azubuike.
2013 - Anthony Bennett (awful pick), Sergey Karasev (who?) Allen Crabbe (solid second rounder), Carrick Felix (who?)
2014 - Andrew Wiggins (solid pick), Joe Harris (okay second rounder).
Cleveland had 5 top four picks and they drafted one all star (Irving), plus two other good starters (Wiggins and Thompson), a rotation player (Waiters) and a starter for the Maine Red Claws (Bennett). They turned a bunch of second rounders and a couple later first rounders into basically nothing. That’s poor management.
Look at their picks after they drafted Lebron before he signed his extension in 2007:
Jason Kapono - 31st in 2003
Luke Jackson - 10th in 2004
Shannon Brown - 25th in 2006
Daniel Gibson - 42nd in 2006
Ejike Ugboaja - 55th in 2006
That’s it. That’s their full draft record. Cleveland’s draft record is horrible. If you want a look at a really sad list, you can see their full draft history here These ain’t the Spurs. These ain’t even the Bucks.
Cleveland nailed two picks in 15 years - Lebron and Kyrie. They did alright with Thompson, Wiggins, and Waiters. They whiffed on basically everyone else. Their best two second round picks were traded. That front office is atrocious. If they hadn’t won the Lebron lottery, chances are Cleveland would have a pretty long streak of missed playoffs, because their draft history doesn’t suggest they would have been able to put together winning teams by stringing together a few good drafts in a row to build a team.
Check out how the Bulls dynasty was built through the draft:
1987 - Horace Grant, 10th overall pick. They picked Olden Polynice 8th and dealt him and other picks to Seattle for some guy named Scottie Pippen. I think Chicago got the best of that deal.
1988 - Will Perdue 11th overall. Went on to be the backup center on many of those title squads.
1989 - BJ Armstrong (18th) and Stacey King (6th). Armstrong was the starting PG for the first three titles. King was a rotation player.
1990 - Toni Kukoc 29th overall. Was the 6th man on the second threepeat teams.
Chicago drafted two of the other four starters for their first set of titles, plus traded for the draft rights to their second best player during that stretch and drafted two other rotation guys and had the foresight to get a guy that would help them win three more titles.
Chicago wasn’t unbeatable because of Jordan. It was because they nailed four consecutive drafts starting in 1987, plus made the Pippen trade. They acquired five of their top 7 non Jordan players as rookies, then had the foresight to trade for a veteran center (Bill Cartwright) and a secondary shooter (John Paxson).
The Bulls signed Paxson as a free agent in 1985, understanding that they could use a shooter opposite Jordan in the backcourt, and traded Charles Oakley (a guy they got in a draft day trade) for Cartwright in 1988 once they knew the rest of the roster (Paxson-Jordan-Pippen-Grant) was in place.
Chicago had a plan (surround a young Michael Jordan with defenders, rebounders and shooters). Cleveland did not. Look at the roster again. If Chicago had never drafted Jordan, they would still have been a playoff team given those acquisitions. Not a championship team, but certainly playoff caliber. Cleveland would have been hopeless.
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How much more dominant a defender would peak Lebron have been if allowed to hand check with his strength and quickness?
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Lebron led the revolution to positionless basketball because he is all of the positions.
Sorry but that revolution was started by Magic who normally played PG and every other position and in the series against the Celtic he played Center when Kareem was injured. LeBron might be the stronger player but Magic could do it all…and very well as well.
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mayjay said:
@JayHawkFanToo Marcus Morris, who looked like he was trying to get a piggy back ride. And Lebron gets fouled far more than he fouls.
You are kidding, right? LeBron does not get called for most of the fouls he commits and when they call a foul he is always complaining to the refs; he lowers his shoulder and pushes into the defender and that is the definition of a charge. He is without a doubt one of the bigger if not the biggest whiner in the League.
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@mayjay said:
Rooting for or against players and teams is basic to fandom.
…and yet you seem to have a problem when others do not root for a player you like.
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@mayjay Why do you feel sorry for him? Maybe he loves to hate LeBron. One can derive just as much joy rooting against a perceived evil as rooting for the good guy.
I.e. The Raiders are only fun to bash when they’re good. But that doesn’t stop me from enjoying every Chiefs wunnover them.
What I feel sorry for are the LeBron apologists who can’t enjoy him unless everyone else appreciates LBJ to the exact same extent they do. Haters are going to hate, don’t let that ruin your fun.
Edit this is in response to a really old post as it turns out. May have been answered already.
