Its March and Sans Embiid KU Is Still Too Young
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I don’t believe Self ever said anything about cutting down the nets, at least that I know of. As usual, “not so” Smart is hearing voices in his head and hearing what he wants to hear.
Even BIlas commented last night that Smart was barely touched and went flying like he was hit by a car. Amazing that the refs are still buying his flopping.
KU is not a dirty team or a team that purposely fouls; how do you explain the huge discrepancy in fouls at the game? I can’t.
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@JayHawkFanToo we KNOW Self would never say that!!! Smart is dumb as a post, sorry! Don’t want to be like that tt dude. Bad-mouthing kids! When the media asked Smart if he had any counseling after the incident, and he said he didn’t have any problems…BS!!! Ford should have got them both appointments! The chair kicking should have had consequences!
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@jaybate 1.0 jb, you have paid high compliments to Marcus Smart. There is little doubt that the kid is really talented. An extremely loose cannon for most coaches and officials to deal with, but a rare enough talent to find a niche somewhere in professional sports. I can’t imagine the likes of the Thunder or the Spurs ever taking a chance on such a loose screw; but his current posturing and gloating aren’t far removed from the norm in professional basketball. Regarding JoJo, I suspect you are right on target. We don’t advance far without him at 90%. I’m inclined to address the Wiggins thing much more positively. Usually, he has done a super job on defense; has allowed his offense to progress incrementally; is a terrific team player; is still the GREAT HOPE for blowout scoring production against almost any opponent we should face. But would probably just as soon be inclined to retire to his lodgings to play video games 18/7! As Crimsonorblue22 so succinctly pointed out: These are kids! We just have to arrange and manipulate our pre- and post-game warboards with full respect for that ultimate consideration. Per usual, I enjoy reading your timely posts…almost more than the Sunday Comics or reruns of Don Cheadle and Brenden Gleeson in THE GUARD!
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@REHawk Speaking of coaches having to deal with Marcus Smart, last night I viewed Travis Ford in a much better light, after his favorable postgame words about the Jayhawks. This must have been a most difficult season for him, losing Cobbins to injury, Clark to misdemeanors, and putting up with an array of Smartisms. Sometimes when cameras focus on the Cowboys bench during timeouts, it appears that Marcus is taking over the coaching. Ford is still growing as a coach. I hope he will have learned much better to take charge of his troops in order to win control over the young and sometimes out-of-control players in his custody. He is enmeshed in a league filled with very experienced knowledgeable and successful peers who present a constant challenge for one of the youngest among them. Either he will grow from his experiences this season…or will remain annually in the lower echelon of Big 12 W/L columns. A guy who played at Misery and Kaintuck, it is very easy for rabid Jayhawk fans to overflow with disrespect!
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It is absurd to believe Bill would even consider to cut down nets on an opponent’s floor-none the less at the gym where he played his college ball. Smart is a liar proven from the fan & the n word tale at TT, and possibly a pathological liar to boot. Bad news for a lotto pick & guaranteed $$, keeps flopping & bamboozling himself lower & lower day by day. They’ll fine him for that krap in the L, & should be able to at minimum assess a foul for it now in D 1. I can’t recall EVER seeing a guy do so much bad acting outside of Burbank.
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Wiggins turned 19 last Sunday, and yes, he left high school 1 year early. While Wiggins is off the chart in athleticism and potential, he is probably 3-4 years a way in physical maturity. Another year in high school would have helped, but then, selfishly, we might not have had a really great kid to cheer for and be ambassador for the Jayhawks.
One thing to point out, Wiggins was held back in middle school, then reclassified in high school This is a common practice to allow kids to dominate their peers, get on the scouts radar, and then reclassify back to their original graduating class. Here’s a youtube video about the practice by Jalen Rose, he talks about it a lot:
Selden also did it. Here’s an article as well
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@approxinfinity For decades, Texas schoolkids were held back, so as to allow physical growth prior to h.s. graduation. Especially football players. Ross Perot went on a campaign several years ago to outlaw that common practice down in the Grand Nation of Presidential candidates and Football.
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@jaybate - “Got to hope Joel is okay, or else.”
No truer words have been spoken. I am really, really concerned.
I would shut him down until the Big 12 tourney without any hesitation.
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@REHawk I did not know this! In Kansas, we hold kids back in kindergarten or 1st grade. I know if your son has a summer bday, they encourage you to wait a year. Hearing that the Wiggins family did this explains why they want him in the NBA pronto. Jr high is a tough time for many kids, wonder how this effects them, mentally and emotionally. Retention is usually an embarrassment to kids. But, if done for athletic purposes, maybe it’s viewed differently. Interesting! Did you all know about this?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Never knew! Until three minutes ago…
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@REHawk is this jr high too?
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Guys and gals, I am neck deep in this in Houston with my own kids in high school athletics in a very very competitive athletic and academic HS world.
THIS does happen down here, and so other places too. This week I saw a FRESHMAN win a 100 meter race with a goatee that was full like he was 21 years old. This is next to a kid that looks 10 years old. Some of these HS boys look and have the build of grown men. I look back at photos of my KU teammates and they look like sophmores in high school. Some of it is above board, some involves bad decisions.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Actually, I am shooting from the hip about Ross Perot leading an attack on that once common Texas practice re holding athletes back a year. That is definitely the way I remember it…but now in my eighth decade the memories have begun to bounce…down and up like Marcus Smart on the hardwoods. Maybe someone with research time or a more precise memory for factual detail might be inclined to add to this discussion?
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@REHawk we always heard that kids in oklahoma were held back for sports purposes, but it was at a young age.
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@HighEliteMajor Yeah, I, also, would shut JoJo down. Pronto. No more “tweak” talk; no rushing his recovery. The end of season tournament picture looks very vivid to me. Without a mostly healthy Embiid, we close up shop. Absolutely marvelous, what that kid has become so quickly and adroitly. I damn near shed my own tear when I read about his lumbering toward the Sat. night team bus. The hallway glimpse of his journey to the locker room was visually agonizing. We have won the league outright, even if we lose the next two games w/o him. A #2 seed suits me fine; and we would earn that if we perform well in the league tournament, regardless of the Tech or W. VA outcomes. If NCAA Powers What Be choose to overlook Okie State’s losses during Smart’s penalty games, then they sure as hell should take into consideration KU’s struggles with an impaired or missing starting star. Bottom line: Jayhawks earned the outright regular season championship in what is arguably the toughest conference in the nation this year.
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@REHawk article now on ku sports that he’s really sore.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I just did a bit of research on the Perot thing. Found that in 1983 he headed a committee to review and suggest changes to the Texas public school system. One of the keynotes of that committee was to promote the No Pass-No Play rule for extracurricular activities. Without more intense research I probably cannot unearth his stance on abolishing the trend of holding athletes back; but as I remember it, there was to be instituted some rule or other about no high school football player participating in school sports after reaching a certain age, maybe 19 or 20…which, essentially, curbed the popular practice. I do know full well that the state is still crazed over the sport of football and pays football coaches considerably more than most teachers and administrators in most communities. I am aware of one S. TX high school of an enrollment, 2000 pupils. Nineteen employees work with the football program. In that particular community, high school basketball players are a bit shy about admitting to being a part of an athletic endeavor other than football. One of my relatives taught several years in that high school.
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@REHawk very interesting, seems we don’t all have the same rules.
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Kansas is no different than the majority of states that have a date by which a student has to be a certain age to attend specific grade. The rule is in place mostly so younger students will not be placed with older students. They tend to be very strict about it and you would need to show plenty of justification to override the rule…at least it is this way in the Olathe School District which conforms to State rules.
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@REHawk Speaking of coaches having to deal with Marcus Smart, last night I viewed Travis Ford in a much better light, after his favorable postgame words about the Jayhawks.
I don’t understand why you would. Smart clearly indicated that the coaches showed them articles with Coach Self alleged comments about cutting the nets. There is no way that assistant coaches would do this without Ford’s knowledge and acquiescence. If a KU assistant coach would do something like this without permission, I would think he would be fired on the spot. Ford has badmouthed Coach Self before so this is not really surprising; I will guess that Ford resents that OSU fans would love to get rid of him and get Bill Self instead.
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Everyone needs to read a book called “Outliers.” Throughout most fields of endeavor in adult life, the most successful persons tend to have been the oldest in their graduating classes in high school. Being the oldest in your high school graduating class predisposes you to have always been the most mentally and physically mature of all of your peers throughout your educational process. This predisposes you toward the most academic, athletic, and social success. This then carries into test taking for college admission, which predisposes you to get into better colleges. In turn, getting into better colleges predisposes you to getting into better jobs. Starting out with a better job at a better firm predisposes you to more career success. “Outliers” is a thought-provoking book that should be read by everyone, though like any such book, it should not be taken as simplistically as some perhaps do.
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@JayHawkFanToo Ford must not be to “smart”! Someone was going to figure that out.
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@jaybate 1.0 I have always thought that way. Kindergarten teachers do a screening, size and bdays are taken into consideration. Discouraging boys w/summer bdays. But wouldn’t it be different if retention is in jr high?
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I can’t agree more. PG play is a big weakness heading into the Madness. (Cue the Lyle discussion.) Perry’s lack of poise and D is a concern. (Makes me think Cliff will have a shot at unseating him next season.)
But Embiid’s health is front and center. No agile lion-hunter in the middle, no dice. Get well, big fella.
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“I don’t believe Self ever said anything about cutting down the nets, at least that I know of. As usual, “not so” Smart is hearing voices in his head and hearing what he wants to hear.”
You are right… Self said nothing about cutting down nets in Stillwater. Be he did say he was holding off celebration until we claimed the championship outright. Probably not a good thing to say because it allows for inferences to be made that could help OSU get motivated.
Marcus Smart stating he wasn’t going to allow us to cut nets down wasn’t intelligent… but it was smart (Smart). Smart pulled a Marshall. He found a way to inspire and motivate.
I’ve been critical on Self for lacking the ability to motivate before games. Maybe he’s just too sensible to go in these types of directions. Smart’s comment wasn’t sensible. It was a long way from being factual. Doesn’t matter… it worked!
That is the lesson in all of this… and for whatever flaws Marcus has in his game and personality he makes up a lot of ground by being so competitive. He is a guy who becomes lethal when he has the right kind of chip on his shoulder.
These types of illogical thought have always been around to help athletes motivate. Sometimes it is necessary to be illogical in order to get motivated.
I’m pretty sure the 1980 US national ice hockey team used several illogical mantras in preparation to face the Russians in the 1980 Olympics.
This is one area of sports preparation we flunk in. We are usually the heavy favorites, and we walk around with a target on our backs and unaware of the potential of tools like this that can inspire athletes to play to their potential.
I guess it is something we just have to live with because it is clear it is beyond us to try and find ways to motivate.
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I know non of the KU coaches would say they were going to cut down the nets on an away court.
I am guessing here, but that was probably part of Fords halftime speech to fire his team up, asking them if they wanted to watch KU cut the nets down on their home floor?
One of the student trainers then texted his friends in the crowd to have them storm the court so that if for some reason Bill Self turned into BarnesWeberHoibergFordDrew and would allow his team to do so the over aboundance of students on the floor would not let the ladders on the floor.
Then again when was the last time OKst got to cut any nets down? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? 2005 thats when under Eddie Sutton.
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@drgnslayr I have heard Self say several times before playing various teams (couldnt tell you which ones) that they wouldnt use something for motivation when the media has asked him about it.
I think that not instilling motivation in his players is Bill Self’s greatest weakness, while it is Greg Marshall’s greatest strength.
You are right - Self is too sensible in his approach to a game, and is why they fell short two straight years in '10 and '11, both of which were arguably the best teams that year.
We can only hope that Self figures something out on how to motivate his team for later this month.
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@DinarHawk gagging! Big difference, Bill Self knows WHEN to keep his mouth shut! Marshall loves to BLAB! How many games has Self won? Marshall? Conference championships in an elite conference… seriously?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I never said I liked it or I thought what Marshall does is the best.
My point is that Self’s teams have had a history of not coming to play.
Trust me Crimson, I am a fan of Wichita States’s team, not Marshall. He makes too many comments about other teams, in my opinion. However, you cant deny that he knows how to motivate his team.
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@DinarHawk my point is, doesn’t the amount of victories Self has, prove that most of the time he motivates them? Someone help me out here! I think the WSU kids would be motivated w/out Marshall. I can just picture Self calling Marshall, “hey coach Marshall, this is coach chicken hawk here, would you help me motivate my chicken hawks?”
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@Crimsonorblue22 There are many times where KU plays uninspired basketball and still wins because of their talent level.
This isnt about amount of victories or conference championships.
This is about Self motivating his team when it matters most.
Unfortunately, Self has only gotten the job done twice. That is not good enough with all the talented teams that he has had.
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@jaybate 1.0 I thought “Outliers” was a terrific book. As an educator, I have seen kids held back for a number of reasons, although not usually for athletics. In the case of boys with summer birthdays, holding them back and starting kindergarten late makes some sense, especially if they are emotionally immature. Many people are doing this now, even for girls. I have two grandsons who swim competitively, and they have benefitted from having favorable birthdays, but the league made this cut off rule and not their parents.
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Considering that KU has won more games than any other team since Coach Self has been here, I would say that he has done pretty well "motivating his teams. Most any other coach in America wishes they could do that well. You can say they had more talent but it is not true, Coach Self has simply gotten more from his player that other coaches have. Look at other teams that have had equal or better players than KU, like Baylor and Texas in the conference alone, and none have had the success KU has.
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@JayHawkFanToo thank you!
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You are most welcome.
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@JayHawkFanToo Travis Ford is selling his soul as a coach. He’s bordering on the Calipari coaching low. He is not a coach. He relies on Smart and Brown to run this team. They are his bread and butter. They have saved his job at OSU. This is why Ford will never intentionally apply any discipline to Smart at all. He is the worst coaching rep of the B12 right now. I would never want him being anywhere near representing the B12 in any way. His coaching is not professional, ethical, or even close to being near great. He will never admit or apologize for himself or his team. The only reason why he apologized to the TT fan was because the osu admin and AD likely told him to for PR. AND he even defended Smart’s actions by explaining what a great kid Smart was on and off the court. He even went so far as to defend the coaches too. That was the dumbest attempt at an apology I’ve ever seen, a joke, an insult to the league at the very least. I never heard anything that resembled an apology to a fellow-conference coach in his post game remarks about Smart’s ridiculous over the top misquote of Self. He doesn’t know how to lead this team or teach this team off the court and it shows in the stupid words of his star player. Smart is way out of control and Ford will never teach him otherwise. Ford is usless and Smart’s words and actions are a direct reflection of his coaching inabilities. They never ran one play against KU and it became the Marcus Smart show most of the second half. Ford pretends to coach, but lets his players play, no discipline on the court or plays at all. Ford lost my respect completely and Marcus Smart is the worse student/athlete in NCAA bball history. They take dirty to a new low in bball.
THE BIGGEST JOKE OF A PLAYER EVER. YOU’RE AN IDIOT MARCUS SMART!
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/93775/travis-ford-let-marcus-smart-down
Dana O’Neil actually asked a good question and was crucified. Marcus Smart has learned nothing and will always be an overpaid thug. You can play the race card all you want, but he’s a thug and punk. OSU will never admit it either. He’s an embarrassment to their program.
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@jaybate 1.0 I’m not pissed because we got beat. I don’t even think Smart beat us. The better team failed to win. They gave that game away in the worst possible way. BUT, if you’re the star athlete of a team you claim to lead, just learned a valuable lesson in sportsmanship and leadership, you don’t repeat the same stupid mistake. It was TT fan Orr, but Self who Smart targeted this time. He didn’t push Self, but he disrespected one of the best coaches in NCAA history who has nothing but respect for Smart as a player.
No rational bball fan would ever deny that Marcus Smart is one of the best players in the country and will go to the next level and make a lot of money playing in the NBA, but he has thrown his character away. He has destroyed his image with the game he claims to love.
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@truehawk93-Scathing account, but true to the mark. Has been glaringly obvious for a couple of ears that Ford is inept as a coach & teacher even if he has recruited some good talent. I’ve long thought they’ve won games in spite of him & not because of him. Nash has been superbly underdeveloped now for 3 years & Smart for 2. At least Scott Drew doesn’t instill such a childlike mentality in his players to permeate his failures as a decent X & O coach. If as a coach at a D 1 school, you’ve no control over your kids’ actions, the results are often an expose’ on national tv. Twice in one year involving the same guy is reason for alarm & plan B for OSU. Couldn’t agree more about not starting after the WVU chair meltdown. That krap belongs in the locker room & not on public display. The OSU AD should specifically site the examples of Josh Pastner at Memphis suspending, dismissing & cutting his players for disciplinary reasons. After reading the story link you posted I’ve a much different view of a young coach (Pastner) trying to do the right thing for the correct reasons. I’ve not ever had much respect for Ford’s abilities as a tutor & have posted this fact several occasions prior to your comments & during the course of these events. His teams’ constant on the court whining, flopping & complaining are a direct result of how they are allowed to conduct themselves within their circle of coaching & beyond. Should OSU have a decent viable option, IMO they should show Ford the door ASAP.
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You seem a bit aggressive about this whole Marcus Smart thing. OSU beat us, and they beat us because while they were able to execute, we were not.
We could not contain their high screen action. The reality of upper level basketball is that you don’t run many set plays. You can run set plays on SOB and BOB situations, but most of the time you are not running a “play” but rather a repetitive action with multiple options on each branch.
For example, the famous “chop” that KU runs isn’t really a play. It’s an action. A play would have a definite beginning and end, with a specific shot being orchestrated. An action doesn’t have that.
Most think chop is a play because we have seen the Chalmers shot, made famous in the national title game, but previously run in the Big XII title game in 2007 (to tie that game, oddly enough). However, that’s just the first part of the action. KU actually ran the exact same set IN THE NATIONAL TITLE GAME in 2008. People don’t really remember it because it did not end with a three, so it looks like KU’s regular dribble hand off action (which is what it is based on. In that situation, Memphis played it perfectly and the action ended with Darrell Arthur hitting a jumper from the weak side.
If it were a play, the result would be to back the ball out if the three weren’t there. However, because it’s an action it just keeps going. Initial dribble handoff, swing to the weak side. Possible three from the weak side. Post up on the weak side block. Cut through to the new strong side corner. Flash to the high post for a high low option. Chop is Bill Self’s favorite action because it incorporates all of his favorite things - high low, dribble handoff, strong to weak swing - into one continuous motion. But it’s really not a play.
But back to my point, OSU ran a ton of action, typically off a high ball screen down the stretch. And they absolutely killed us with it. They ran similar action last night against K-State. And they killed them with it too.
As for the whole celebration thing, let’s look at it from a different perspective. There were a LOT of people upset about OSU celebrating in the Phog last year after their win. We have on record that Bill Self said they would not celebrate the conference title until they had clinched outright. Now ask yourself - how do people normally celebrate titles? Is it completely unreasonable to take Bill Self’s statement that KU would celebrate when they won the title outright, and knowing that a win in Stillwater would clinch the title (and the fact that KU’s equipment managers had championship hats and t-shirts in tow), is Smart’s statement really all that absurd?
Did Self say they would cut down the nets at Gallagher Iba? No.
Did he say they would celebrate after they won outright? Yes.
Would a win in Stillwater have been an outright title? Yes.
Do teams cut down nets after winning titles? Yes
Would an OSU coach showing the team the quote and then saying - DO NOT LET THEM CELEBRATE ON OUR FLOOR! have been out of line? I don’t think so
Could that have been interpreted to mean net cutting? Maybe.
I will say this - calling Smart a liar and a thug because of the way he interpreted Coach Self’s statement about celebrating when they won the title outright is over the top in its own respect.
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@justanotherfan Have you ever seen an opposing team cut the nets down on the home court of the team they’re playing? Yeah, me neither.
Case in point, Smart knew that wouldn’t happen.
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@DinarHawk-Yes Billy Tubbs did it in AFH once, & if I recall correctly, it was in 1988, the year we kicked his a$$ in the NC game at Kemper. Someone should correct me if wrong on that, but calling Smart a liar is totally accurate in the account of Orr at TT-he did not call Smart the N word as Smart stated. Witnesses have verified that exchange. If he’s is foolish enough to believe Bill Self would allow his guys to cut down the nets in his alma maters gym, he’s very obviously mentally challenged to say the least. That, we already know.
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@globaljaybird Sometimes I’m a half a bubble off of plumb, but when we missed out on Forte and Smart, I was bummed about Forte because I KNOW that he’s a good kid and works his ASS off. I knew nothing about Smart other than he was supposed to be a hot shot.
If they were a package deal and we missed Forte because of Smart - then thank you Mr. Smart. I don’t want anyone like him in a Jayhawk uniform.
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Yes, actually I have. It happens quite a bit in college especially. Typically for smaller conferences, they play their tournaments at the home site of the top seed. If the top seed doesn’t win the title, the nets are cut by the champion on the top seed’s home court. I haven’t watched enough title clinching games from other conferences to know if other coaches have trimmed nets on the road in the regular season consistently, but I do know that it has happened before.
Whether Self would do it is another thing entirely.
@globaljaybird
As for the whole TTech thing, I don’t know what Orr said, but the way Smart reacted made me believe that Orr said something to spark that reaction, considering Smart wasn’t even engaging him, then turned around very suddenly. The only video with sound of the incident is hard to hear what is said.
It doesn’t sound like a racial slur, but I can’t tell what he said. It’s at the 0:17 mark in that video.
My thing is this - if you’re going to criticize Smart for pushing that guy (and he was wrong for doing that, no doubt), then you should also criticize the Orr guy, who 1) is a booster of Tech and 2) has a history of incidents baiting players.
Just my thoughts.
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@justanotherfan OK, I’ll criticize Orr also, but that’s pretty much a no brainer, like Weatherwax at ISU. Eye witness accounts determined that a slur was not heard. Regardless, where does the buck stop? I’ll tell you where, with the BOSS, Ford.
He’s the guy with his foot on the gas & hand on the wheel while the bus is flying down the hillside way, way, outside the stripes on the pavement. Just sayin…
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I respectfully disagree with you.
You are using the same logic that Travis Ford used to justify Smart’s comments about Coach Self after the games. I am sorry but I don’t buy it; to me it seems more like a CYA effort than an attempt to find out why Smart made those comments.
The comments were made on national TV so there is no argument about them. The issue at hand is this:
Did the coaching staff indeed showed some alleged comments made by Coach Self?
or…
Did Smart just heard what he wanted to hear (nothing new there) and made the comments without substantiation?
The end result is that either the coaching staff or Smart are at fault. It is one of the other, you cannot have it both ways. Ford’s comments were a poor attempt to deflects responsibility from either himself and/or his staff, or once again, trying to cater to Smart. Dana O’Neill had it right, Ford refuses to take any responsibility for the programs woes or act pro-actively to guide his players.
As far s the comment made by the fan at Texas Tech. fan, you must be the only one that does not know what was said. There is none, zero, nada, zilch, nil evidence that a racial slur was used; that part was made up solely by Smart and again, he was let off with a slap in the wrist and Ford did his best to justify the entire fiasco, Be assured that had OSU not preemptively suspended Smart, the conference would have likely done so for a considerably larger period. Ford’s reputation has taken a gigantic hit this season.
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I think that Coach Self doesn’t bring in overly emotional players. Sure the twins could get that way and TRob, became that way after his journey though hell.
But what other players really played with their emotions on their sleeves?
Perry Ellis is almost the poster child for Bill Self recruiting. Go play your game, don’t get into what the other team is saying or the crowd. We see that with Mason here and there that he runs his mouth, but give him a year and he won’t be that way.
I think if you have to coax your team into playing you either didn’t have them prepared for the game or you don’t have the right players for your system.
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