Now having had time
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I’m not saying it was right or wrong. I’m saying it was a decision that was made with thought and awareness of the risks. It didn’t work out for this game. We are yet to see whether it will be a net positive or negative. It’s a game we could have won and I agree probably WOULD have one had Mitch been subbed for Doke before we got to the bonus.
I can’t say I fully disagree with the decision if it was made in an attempt to show confidence in Doke. I hope I made it clear that if it was some kind of measuring contest with Lon, I definitely do not agree with it.
This loss will not ruin our season and our chances of winning/sharing the league may have dipped a bit but are still pretty good.
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HighEliteMajor said:
I stand here before you, hat in hand, saying that Mitch Lightfoot should have been playing over Udoka Azubuike after the first foul at the appx. 3:40 mark. This is a grand admission. It’s truly “red pill” stuff. An admission and acknowledgment of the real truth. I am actually saying that Mitch should have played over Udoka. Amazing to me.
A big point, too, aside from the fouling issue, was that OU was not the type of team that had post players that would overwhelm Mitch. The fact is, Mitch played great last night. Mitch has played well even when a matchup isn’t favorable, so I don’t want to minimize the praise of his performance implying the match-up as the sole cause.
Your right exactly right. - -We were actually I a really good spot in the game before this - up I think 6 late. Bill had all kinds of chances to pull him - he basically gave away 8 free points. - Two times the front ends of one and one’s - and then two of the double bonus, like I have said if not Mitch then hell he could of inserted Cunliffe either one of them this will not be the last time for sure. - You can count on it Monday against squeaky if the same situation arises.
Coach said Doke is going to have to be on the floor later in big games - he going to have to make the shot - -Well I have seen multiple times late in big games where a team will pull the weak link - poor free throw shooter out late so this doesn’t cost the game - Self has to understand. - Just like Kruger doing what he has to do to win big games - -Self has to do what he needs to do to win big games, that’s why he is paid the big bucks - -if that includes taking Doke out - -then he has to take him out.
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Probably one of the most craziest off the wall statements I read from another post unreal. - Poster said look " It’s ok to lose " WHAT? - -is that really the mentality? - I can just see it now , Coach walks in - pre-game conference with players and says " It’s ok to lose " - ooh Well ok then Whew that’s a relief.
Thank GOD our players don’t have that train of thought - -that our Coaching staff doesn’t have that train of thought? - Do you think we have won 13 straight with that train of thought? - I had to ask the guy if he had got bumped on the head - or if he had been smoking meth - Man. -
You want to instill confidence for Doke? - -at what expense?
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As you know. I am a fan of Lightfoot and even before the game, when discussion the poke-a-Doke, I wrote that at the end of close games Doke will have to come out when the team is on offense as much as possible and back in when in defense. It is just common sense with the available information.
Personally, I would have put Mitch in and kept Doke out the last 3 minutes of the game when it was clear what OU was doing…
Having said that and listening to Coach Self’s explanation I can see where he is coming from and more importantly where he was hoping to achieve. To us, the loss is an inconvenience that prevents us from having bragging right at the office the next day but for Coach Self is just one move in game of chess in which he is a grand master and for which he is planning several moves ahead.
Coach Self might play dumb sometimes but we know that what he did last night was done on purpose and with an agenda in mind. We obviously don’t have all the information on what goes on behind close doors but he does and he is thinking several moves ahead; we are fixating on one game and he is looking at the rest of the season and beyond.
I see lots of post that call for teaching Doke how to shoot free throws, even posting detailed instructions (great write up from @HighEliteMajor by the way), but really…do you all think that KU does not have a coach or several that know the technique inside out? Do you really think the staff has not worked with Doke in correcting his form? If they have not, then the entire lot, including Coach Self, should be fired for not doing their jobs. But I do not think this is the case.
I personally think there is more to it than we know. Sometimes the pre-shows show the shot around before the game and there are also photos posted in various sites and I seem to recall Doke shooting FTs with a somewhat decent form but somehow at game time he reverts to the crappy form we all have seen; he has actually made 2 in a row during a game so he is obviously capable. I will guess that up to this point, Doke has been a lot more receptive to improving and practicing his game moves and avoiding working on his FT shooting, perhaps because of a self erected mental block , and maybe this is a way of sending him a wake up call.
Remember a player name Wilt Chamberlain?.. perhaps the best player ever and yet he could not shoot FTs and he tried all kinds of techniques and the highest season average he ever had was 0.613 and the lowest 0.38 and a career average of 0.511…sounds familiar? Wilt and more recently Shaq (career 0.527) had firm mental blocks about FTs that they never really overcame.
Most of us have played or watched basketball for many, many years, some of us older posters probably decades, so it is easier fo us to understand the game and all of its idiosyncrasies. Doke is relatively new to the sport and perhaps has not quite grasped all that is involved in the game. Athletic ability is one thing but basketball IQ is quite different; he obviously has the first but he is still working on the second. Have you ever tried to explain American football rules to someone that has not followed football before? Most of the time they look at you with a blank stare and say… why?..it does not make sense, but to us that are familiar with sport it is second nature and we don’t even think about it.
Except for the elite programs, in HS there is not much strategy or fundamental being taught and a big player like Doke dominates without too much effort and, if he is lucky, he has a good coach that helps; most are part time coaches that also teach English and driver’s ed and their coaching skills are limited. Coach Self has stated in the past that the staff spends the first part of the season weaning new players of all the and habit and defective techniques they acquired in High School
We all enjoy the luxury of watching one game at the time and openly criticize after the fact; the coaching staff has to look at the much larger picture and plan accordingly. Coach Self is no dummy and he took a calculated risk knowing the odds were not good but again, with a much larger picture in mind and with the intent of a much larger future reward.
That’s is my story and I am sticking to it.
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@JayHawkFanToo I like your points. But, as this particular B12 starts to near the halfway point, to me it is far far beyong next-day bragging rights— leave that to the KSucks of the world, let them rush their court at Sherrontagon-o-gloom if they pull the upset…what we are chasing this season (#14), is one for the ages, a record that may stand for 30+ YEARS, like UCLA’s has. Getting an L in the fashion we did, we can’t afford an L, not with this flawed team.
Just imho, any 1 game now matters most: All those years of gutting out OT wins against TX, WVU, OU (Hield), EJ39 game at ISU…all kept the streak going…. To lose the streak before owning it outright over ucla, would be a shame. So to lose a game by giving it away late, simply magnifies what’s at stake.
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Thank you, Ralster. Hundreds of posts later and you identify the “elephant in the room”… presently a “flawed team” with a razor’s edge margin for error. I wonder how excitable any of us would be if we weren’t chasing 14.
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We are now engaged in LEAGUE PLAY. This is WAR. Specifically, the program stands at the threshold of historic statistical accomplishment. This is not a time for a HOF coach to be experimenting and gambling with wins and losses. I am 20 hours removed from this fiasco…and not one bit less disgruntled. Does Doke deserve this beatdown? If he has been ignoring instruction or failing to spend time practicing this essential weakness in his game, then perhaps so. I mentioned several days ago that Doke has made so much improvement to other aspects of his game that, at this stage, the focus on free throw shooting might amount to overload. In early developmental stages the neural impulses can probably just handle so much. Lightfoot either is a gifted shooter of free throws, or is a player who practices shooting them regularly; maybe both. Did Mitch have 4 fouls going into the final 3 minutes? I haven’t checked that stat. But it seemed so obvious that Mitch should have entered the game at that stage. We reference the psychological effect, yanking Doke. I hope Mitch is not psychologically slammed by his coach’s not counting on him to make a difference. He is a quick and earnest competitor who has occasionally made a difference. Also, I notice that Lon Kruger is being roasted over hot coals for his decision to foul Doke. Give it a break! What competitive opposing coach would not have done the same thing? Weber? Ratzo? That little bully at Wichita State?
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@REHawk Until things change with Doke - -Kruger by far won’t be the last. – -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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I don’t necessarily disagree with you. You know Coach Self personally and don’t you think that he knew what he was doing knowing it could cost a game? It is not like suddenly Coach Self became completely incompetent, right?
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@JayHawkFanToo I think Self is the best coach KU has ever had. But I’m only speculating if perhaps he learned something by the way the KU OU game played out.
I want #14 almost more for Self and his legacy, than I do for myself or us fans, because he will have crafted it. Thats the macro view. But Udoka’s FT woes are unbelievably maddening, considering what’s at stake. We’ll see how this conf race plays out, we’re still in driver’s seat.
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@REHawk wow, i cant imagine anyone roasting Kruger for hackaDoke, where did you see that? …why would anyone roast him? It was a brilliant, timely tactic when nothing else was working for OU the whole game…they never really closed the gap, until several empty KU possessions in a row.
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@Ralster they did ask him about it during post game and he wouldn’t address it, he was embarrassed, it seemed to me.
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Thats because he conspired with the refs period. He didnt adress it because he didnt want the media to pick up on the fact that when the game was on the line the refs bailed OU out!
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The refs bailed OU out and got away with it. Its really obveous to see that the refs were in on the win. Its not supposed to happen but it IS happening across the board. It is coach Selfs job to see that and adjust accordingly. He FAILED miserably.
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Regarding Dok’s confidence:
Watch Dok shoot free throws in the Baylor game, especially the second shot after missing the first. He looks defeated. He sulks, looks at the floor… his broken psyche is pretty apparent.
Self needs to stop worrying about damaging his confidence. Based on his body language, it couldn’t be much lower.
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This post is deleted!
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@bskeet Maybe that’s exactly the point. Self already knows Doke’s free throw confidence is in the basement. If doke goes 2-6 instead of 0-6 (not unreasonable considering the averages) he WINS that game for KU by MAKING FREETHROWS! That’d be the biggest confidence boost ever! Obviously in hindsight it didn’t work. But as you have pointed out, it is unlikely to have hurt his confidence any more. Self gambled. It failed. He admitted it was his fault and took responsibility for the loss. We can argue the validity of the decision with the benefit of hindsight but I don’t know that we can fault the intent.
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Well here it is two nights later. I’ve had time to calm down now and try and be rational - -looking for to our NEXT game. - I’m still alive - -the world is still spinning and time to move on now - -got to just really strap it on - -and maybe next time in this situation Coach will put Mitch in with his 82 % free throw shooting - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Jayballer54 KK brought up something yesterday on the radio. When the opponent reaches the 1 and 1 in fouls in the first half why wouldn’t opposing coaches foul Doke the next 3 times down the floor until they reach the double bonus? It would seem to be a great way to get a stop, especially if KU is on a roll and has the momentum. Doke is unlikely to make more than 1 or 2.
The point being that this might not only be an end game strategy for the rest of the season.
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Barney said:
@Jayballer54 KK brought up something yesterday on the radio. When the opponent reaches the 1 and 1 in fouls in the first half why wouldn’t opposing coaches foul Doke the next 3 times down the floor until they reach the double bonus? It would seem to be a great way to get a stop, especially if KU is on a roll and has the momentum. Doke is unlikely to make more than 1 or 2.
The point being that this might not only be an end game strategy for the rest of the season.
Even less likely to make the first too. I can’t remember more then 5-6 times he’s made the first all year
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@BeddieKU23 Yes, that is the point. If the opposition has fouls to give from several bigs why let him dunk in your face, foul him early.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Barney said:
@Jayballer54 KK brought up something yesterday on the radio. When the opponent reaches the 1 and 1 in fouls in the first half why wouldn’t opposing coaches foul Doke the next 3 times down the floor until they reach the double bonus? It would seem to be a great way to get a stop, especially if KU is on a roll and has the momentum. Doke is unlikely to make more than 1 or 2.
The point being that this might not only be an end game strategy for the rest of the season.
Even less likely to make the first too. I can’t remember more then 5-6 times he’s made the first all year
Wait, - -he made his 1st attempt of the night against Oklahoma - -nothing but net - pure swish- -didn’t make another one the rest of the game. - - - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Barney That’s been my fear all along. It’s why I’ve been lobbying for Dok to play through fouls as long as the other team isn’t in the bonus. He’ll have plenty of time to sit.
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That’s one. They are far and few between
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BeddieKU23 said:
That’s one. They are far and few between
very far - -and very few for sure. - - -ROCK CHALK ALLD AY LONG BABY
