Now having had time
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justanotherfan said:
If not for the FT stuff, the story would (and rightly should) be about Young playing one of his best overall floor games of the season. He played really well and put together a great game that helped his team win.
Probably one of his most COMPLETE games I’ve seen him play, but having said that - we still had control of this game late up 10 late and then Bill steps in when he should of pulled Doke. - I mean this 1st time ya ok -the 2nd time MAYBE? - but when it became so painfully obvious - and you continue to leave him in? - Bonehead move. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Could not agree with you more. I did not sleep at all last night. Feel like a truck hit me this morning. I bleed crimson and blue. I am overly passionate about our Jayhawks. I now have to make the decision whether to continue to watch them the rest of the season. It is affecting my health terribly and not in a good way. Confidence in Self dropped several notches last night.
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@Big-Clyde52 Ok buddy. Just relax. Bill Self made a calculated decision. He knew his actions could likely cost THIS GAME, but he wanted his player to know he had confidence in him for the rest of the SEASON. He was thinking long term. He knew we had a two game lead in the league race, he knew Doke is going to have to shoot free throws at some point in March. He decided to sacrifice the security of winning this game for future benefits. Will it pay off? Maybe, maybe not. But it wasn’t bone headed and shouldn’t cause anyone to lose any sleep.
Honestly, I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t leave Doke in again at least one more time in conference play and likely once in the conference tournament. It is abundantly clear that KU is at its best when Doke is in the game and Self wants to maximize the time KU can be at its best. That means giving Doke opportunities to fix his freethrow situation in game. You know he’s been practicing and Self must have seen at least some progress to give him that opportunity. It just isn’t showing in games yet.
I do also think Self left him in do get at Lon a little bit. Self prescribes to certain myths about manhood and I think he was challenging Kruger’s manhood by leaving him in there. Kinda saying, “if that’s how low you want to stoop to win, I’m not going to bail you out by pulling him. You can’t control what players I play when. I’m going to make you go into that press room and talk about how your team couldn’t defend mine and had to resort to intentional fouling to eek out a win in your own building.” If Kruger prescribes to similar myths, this may very well impact future matchups and the confidence of his team. If not, well…the #12 team beat the #5 team at home by 5. Next.
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I stand here before you, hat in hand, saying that Mitch Lightfoot should have been playing over Udoka Azubuike after the first foul at the appx. 3:40 mark. This is a grand admission. It’s truly “red pill” stuff. An admission and acknowledgment of the real truth. I am actually saying that Mitch should have played over Udoka. Amazing to me.
A big point, too, aside from the fouling issue, was that OU was not the type of team that had post players that would overwhelm Mitch. The fact is, Mitch played great last night. Mitch has played well even when a matchup isn’t favorable, so I don’t want to minimize the praise of his performance implying the match-up as the sole cause.
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@benshawks08 Thanks for helping me to try and stay positive. Agree with a lot of your reply, except Doke improving his FT situation in game has very little chance of happening. He is, and always will be a 40% FT shooter at best with his current form and mental state. Only a complete overhaul of his form and mechanics and mindset will make him any better. And that takes time and many hours of practice. I just hope his confidence was not completely crushed by that performance on national tv. You know he was saying and thinking please don’t foul me, please don’t foul me. To be a good FT shooter you have to have the mindset to say and think “please put me on the line and I will hurt you”. That is not going to happen with Doke.
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We can argue about Self leaving Doke in (agree Lightfoot should have been in!!!)
Someone tell me just what offense we are running with Doke + Vick standing off in far corner past 3pt line (to make foul on Doke an intentional foul, I get that, but what offense comes with that weirdness?). All it does is force NotMason to dribble drive 1 on 3. Credit Lon Kruger for disrupting KU offense late. He got our Okie, with his Okies, down in Okie…(now for part 2):
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@HighEliteMajor Gotta agree about Mitch. He kept us in that game the first half. Played really strong and active on both ends. Should have gone with him for the win but I gotta have some belief that Self at least knew what he was risking.
“Few things can help an individual more than to place responsibility on him, and to let him know that you trust him.” - Booker T Washington
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@HighEliteMajor I totally agree. Instead of gaining confidence, (which is the excuse Self made), I am hoping it did not have the reverse affect. After he missed the second set of FT’s you could see the rest of the team losing confidence also. They just did not play with the same mojo after the poke-a-Doke started, thereby OU finished the game with a flurry, and we were blanked. Game over.
Also, the people that are saying that we had a two game cushion in the conference so it was okay to gamble reminds me of how we play a lot of time. Instead of the mindset of we have them down lets step on their necks and crush them, it is we are far enough ahead so lets ease up a little. We know how that ends.
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@benshawks08 That quote is true in many situations. Not sure it applies to shooting FT’s when it is win or lose. I wonder if Self would do the same thing in a sweet 16 or elite 8 game, when it is win or go home. I am reminded of another quote not sure by whom. The definition of stupid is trying the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result each time.
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Part 2: Of course the BIG f—king elephant in the room is Doke’s riduculous FT shooting release. Has anyone in ever seen such nonsense.
So he’s played for only 3-4 yrs, which translated, means we cannot let that FT release get ingrained, teach him better, rt now, before it gets ingrained.
Sorry, Im old school: ANY of his coaches ought to physically imitate/mock his FT release right in front of whole team in practice gym, and ask him wtf that is, and if he’s EVER seen any pro or college player shoot FTs like that?!
Whats the real problem, when we are forced to concede we shouldnt have our 5star McD 7ft 270lb center in the game late? Why?
Udoka isn’t stupid, he just saw Self take heat from media & fans about leaving him in. He saw KU take a loss because of him. Maybe he needs to be told he’s hurting his NBA stock with that weakness. Whatever happened to spending hours on your game, by yourself in the gym. Now is time for Norm Roberts to lose sleep, stay up with Doke for LateNite in Phog v2.0: shooting 1000 FTs until he F’n figures it out!
Jeez, a whole generation of kids got it, trying to imitate the best, “Be Like Mike”, etc, and we saw Embiid practicing Olajuwon’s dream shake, and used it at KU (vs NMex). But we’re talking FTs. How many months has KU coaching been watching this kid shoot his stooopid FTs?
Trae had below avg game for him, OU was down most of the game, and critically they were down 10 with 3-4 min left. KU played Trae better than most all opponents this season, yet…?
The KU coaching fail on Doke’s FTs predated this game, and they share the blame with Doke. This loss is on him.
Okie, Dokey? (laughingstock). A chance to make history, yet we watch our royalty program pull this ignominious L. I’m eating some crow, as I admit Landen Lucas would’ve outperformed Doke on the FT line.
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benshawks08 said:
@Big-Clyde52 Ok buddy. Just relax. Bill Self made a calculated decision. He knew his actions could likely cost THIS GAME, but he wanted his player to know he had confidence in him for the rest of the SEASON. He was thinking long term. He knew we had a two game lead in the league race, he knew Doke is going to have to shoot free throws at some point in March. He decided to sacrifice the security of winning this game for future benefits. Will it pay off? Maybe, maybe not. But it wasn’t bone headed and shouldn’t cause anyone to lose any sleep.
Honestly, I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t leave Doke in again at least one more time in conference play and likely once in the conference tournament. It is abundantly clear that KU is at its best when Doke is in the game and Self wants to maximize the time KU can be at its best. That means giving Doke opportunities to fix his freethrow situation in game. You know he’s been practicing and Self must have seen at least some progress to give him that opportunity. It just isn’t showing in games yet.
I do also think Self left him in do get at Lon a little bit. Self prescribes to certain myths about manhood and I think he was challenging Kruger’s manhood by leaving him in there. Kinda saying, “if that’s how low you want to stoop to win, I’m not going to bail you out by pulling him. You can’t control what players I play when. I’m going to make you go into that press room and talk about how your team couldn’t defend mine and had to resort to intentional fouling to eek out a win in your own building.” If Kruger prescribes to similar myths, this may very well impact future matchups and the confidence of his team. If not, well…the #12 team beat the #5 team at home by 5. Next.
I hope your explanation is not what Self thought, though it may be true. Last night was one the dumbest times to prove a point. Summer time is the season for improving your free throws, not a conference road game against a top ten team. As others have said, very disappointing to see the staff and Dok fail miserably at something so simple.
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Bout sum’s up everything perfectly.
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@benshawks08 How does embarrassing the crap out of yourself in front of 12,000 people plus a TV audience of who knows how many, plus practically single handedly causing your team to lose - build any confidence? I would personally have a lot more confidence if my team won and then i spent, oh say 5 hours a day shooting free throws until i figured out what i was doing.
Just sayin.
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Honestly if we lose the B12 I will look at this game as a big reason why, we usually don’t lose close games. When we lose on he road its usually by 8 or 10 points. But to control the whole second half like that and give it away is a sick feeling. Some may disagree but I think monday in Manhattan is a must win now. I honestly feel like i could help Doke a ton from he line just by slowing him down and changing his form.
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benshawks08 said:
@Big-Clyde52 Ok buddy. Just relax. Bill Self made a calculated decision. He knew his actions could likely cost THIS GAME, but he wanted his player to know he had confidence in him for the rest of the SEASON. He was thinking long term. He knew we had a two game lead in the league race, he knew Doke is going to have to shoot free throws at some point in March. He decided to sacrifice the security of winning this game for future benefits. Will it pay off? Maybe, maybe not. But it wasn’t bone headed and shouldn’t cause anyone to lose any sleep.
Honestly, I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t leave Doke in again at least one more time in conference play and likely once in the conference tournament. It is abundantly clear that KU is at its best when Doke is in the game and Self wants to maximize the time KU can be at its best. That means giving Doke opportunities to fix his freethrow situation in game. You know he’s been practicing and Self must have seen at least some progress to give him that opportunity. It just isn’t showing in games yet.
I do also think Self left him in do get at Lon a little bit. Self prescribes to certain myths about manhood and I think he was challenging Kruger’s manhood by leaving him in there. Kinda saying, “if that’s how low you want to stoop to win, I’m not going to bail you out by pulling him. You can’t control what players I play when. I’m going to make you go into that press room and talk about how your team couldn’t defend mine and had to resort to intentional fouling to eek out a win in your own building.” If Kruger prescribes to similar myths, this may very well impact future matchups and the confidence of his team. If not, well…the #12 team beat the #5 team at home by 5. Next.
AND - -as long as the rule stays the same - Lon BY FAR is not going to be the last to use this tactic against KU. - you can take it to the bank anytime in the final minutes if it is anywhere close this is what we are going to see. ya ok , so he is trying to instill confidence in Doke but at what expense?
Should the rest of the team that’s bust their ass for 40 minutes have to suffer the L because Doke’s inability to make free throws? - those points are just what it says - -FREE , It was a very boneheaded move costing big, when you have TWO other much better free throw pct players sitting at the end of the game that could of been on the floor -Don’t blame Lone - it is within the rules, as long as it is - -If Coach is going to risk that - then I don’t blame Kruger for doing whatever is needed to pick up a big win in league, just as Coach should of done what needed to be done - -We were in control of this game - Can’t agree. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@kjayhawks I feel the same way. Doke needs to study film on Brodziansky from TCU. He cocks the ball near his right ear, puts the ball up to the rim softly, and has a perfect follow thru. I am sure Doke is athletic enough that if he started shooting this way several hundred times a day, he could get to 60%. Take a deep breath, a dribble or two to relax, and think of the ball as an egg. Release it as softly as possible to the rim smoothly, no jerks. A slight bend of the knees if needed. Follow thru with your fingers pointing at the front rim. Multiple reps and your muscle memory starts to kick in. It is not that hard.
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I’m not saying it was right or wrong. I’m saying it was a decision that was made with thought and awareness of the risks. It didn’t work out for this game. We are yet to see whether it will be a net positive or negative. It’s a game we could have won and I agree probably WOULD have one had Mitch been subbed for Doke before we got to the bonus.
I can’t say I fully disagree with the decision if it was made in an attempt to show confidence in Doke. I hope I made it clear that if it was some kind of measuring contest with Lon, I definitely do not agree with it.
This loss will not ruin our season and our chances of winning/sharing the league may have dipped a bit but are still pretty good.
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HighEliteMajor said:
I stand here before you, hat in hand, saying that Mitch Lightfoot should have been playing over Udoka Azubuike after the first foul at the appx. 3:40 mark. This is a grand admission. It’s truly “red pill” stuff. An admission and acknowledgment of the real truth. I am actually saying that Mitch should have played over Udoka. Amazing to me.
A big point, too, aside from the fouling issue, was that OU was not the type of team that had post players that would overwhelm Mitch. The fact is, Mitch played great last night. Mitch has played well even when a matchup isn’t favorable, so I don’t want to minimize the praise of his performance implying the match-up as the sole cause.
Your right exactly right. - -We were actually I a really good spot in the game before this - up I think 6 late. Bill had all kinds of chances to pull him - he basically gave away 8 free points. - Two times the front ends of one and one’s - and then two of the double bonus, like I have said if not Mitch then hell he could of inserted Cunliffe either one of them this will not be the last time for sure. - You can count on it Monday against squeaky if the same situation arises.
Coach said Doke is going to have to be on the floor later in big games - he going to have to make the shot - -Well I have seen multiple times late in big games where a team will pull the weak link - poor free throw shooter out late so this doesn’t cost the game - Self has to understand. - Just like Kruger doing what he has to do to win big games - -Self has to do what he needs to do to win big games, that’s why he is paid the big bucks - -if that includes taking Doke out - -then he has to take him out.
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Probably one of the most craziest off the wall statements I read from another post unreal. - Poster said look " It’s ok to lose " WHAT? - -is that really the mentality? - I can just see it now , Coach walks in - pre-game conference with players and says " It’s ok to lose " - ooh Well ok then Whew that’s a relief.
Thank GOD our players don’t have that train of thought - -that our Coaching staff doesn’t have that train of thought? - Do you think we have won 13 straight with that train of thought? - I had to ask the guy if he had got bumped on the head - or if he had been smoking meth - Man. -
You want to instill confidence for Doke? - -at what expense?
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As you know. I am a fan of Lightfoot and even before the game, when discussion the poke-a-Doke, I wrote that at the end of close games Doke will have to come out when the team is on offense as much as possible and back in when in defense. It is just common sense with the available information.
Personally, I would have put Mitch in and kept Doke out the last 3 minutes of the game when it was clear what OU was doing…
Having said that and listening to Coach Self’s explanation I can see where he is coming from and more importantly where he was hoping to achieve. To us, the loss is an inconvenience that prevents us from having bragging right at the office the next day but for Coach Self is just one move in game of chess in which he is a grand master and for which he is planning several moves ahead.
Coach Self might play dumb sometimes but we know that what he did last night was done on purpose and with an agenda in mind. We obviously don’t have all the information on what goes on behind close doors but he does and he is thinking several moves ahead; we are fixating on one game and he is looking at the rest of the season and beyond.
I see lots of post that call for teaching Doke how to shoot free throws, even posting detailed instructions (great write up from @HighEliteMajor by the way), but really…do you all think that KU does not have a coach or several that know the technique inside out? Do you really think the staff has not worked with Doke in correcting his form? If they have not, then the entire lot, including Coach Self, should be fired for not doing their jobs. But I do not think this is the case.
I personally think there is more to it than we know. Sometimes the pre-shows show the shot around before the game and there are also photos posted in various sites and I seem to recall Doke shooting FTs with a somewhat decent form but somehow at game time he reverts to the crappy form we all have seen; he has actually made 2 in a row during a game so he is obviously capable. I will guess that up to this point, Doke has been a lot more receptive to improving and practicing his game moves and avoiding working on his FT shooting, perhaps because of a self erected mental block , and maybe this is a way of sending him a wake up call.
Remember a player name Wilt Chamberlain?.. perhaps the best player ever and yet he could not shoot FTs and he tried all kinds of techniques and the highest season average he ever had was 0.613 and the lowest 0.38 and a career average of 0.511…sounds familiar? Wilt and more recently Shaq (career 0.527) had firm mental blocks about FTs that they never really overcame.
Most of us have played or watched basketball for many, many years, some of us older posters probably decades, so it is easier fo us to understand the game and all of its idiosyncrasies. Doke is relatively new to the sport and perhaps has not quite grasped all that is involved in the game. Athletic ability is one thing but basketball IQ is quite different; he obviously has the first but he is still working on the second. Have you ever tried to explain American football rules to someone that has not followed football before? Most of the time they look at you with a blank stare and say… why?..it does not make sense, but to us that are familiar with sport it is second nature and we don’t even think about it.
Except for the elite programs, in HS there is not much strategy or fundamental being taught and a big player like Doke dominates without too much effort and, if he is lucky, he has a good coach that helps; most are part time coaches that also teach English and driver’s ed and their coaching skills are limited. Coach Self has stated in the past that the staff spends the first part of the season weaning new players of all the and habit and defective techniques they acquired in High School
We all enjoy the luxury of watching one game at the time and openly criticize after the fact; the coaching staff has to look at the much larger picture and plan accordingly. Coach Self is no dummy and he took a calculated risk knowing the odds were not good but again, with a much larger picture in mind and with the intent of a much larger future reward.
That’s is my story and I am sticking to it.
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@JayHawkFanToo I like your points. But, as this particular B12 starts to near the halfway point, to me it is far far beyong next-day bragging rights— leave that to the KSucks of the world, let them rush their court at Sherrontagon-o-gloom if they pull the upset…what we are chasing this season (#14), is one for the ages, a record that may stand for 30+ YEARS, like UCLA’s has. Getting an L in the fashion we did, we can’t afford an L, not with this flawed team.
Just imho, any 1 game now matters most: All those years of gutting out OT wins against TX, WVU, OU (Hield), EJ39 game at ISU…all kept the streak going…. To lose the streak before owning it outright over ucla, would be a shame. So to lose a game by giving it away late, simply magnifies what’s at stake.
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Thank you, Ralster. Hundreds of posts later and you identify the “elephant in the room”… presently a “flawed team” with a razor’s edge margin for error. I wonder how excitable any of us would be if we weren’t chasing 14.
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We are now engaged in LEAGUE PLAY. This is WAR. Specifically, the program stands at the threshold of historic statistical accomplishment. This is not a time for a HOF coach to be experimenting and gambling with wins and losses. I am 20 hours removed from this fiasco…and not one bit less disgruntled. Does Doke deserve this beatdown? If he has been ignoring instruction or failing to spend time practicing this essential weakness in his game, then perhaps so. I mentioned several days ago that Doke has made so much improvement to other aspects of his game that, at this stage, the focus on free throw shooting might amount to overload. In early developmental stages the neural impulses can probably just handle so much. Lightfoot either is a gifted shooter of free throws, or is a player who practices shooting them regularly; maybe both. Did Mitch have 4 fouls going into the final 3 minutes? I haven’t checked that stat. But it seemed so obvious that Mitch should have entered the game at that stage. We reference the psychological effect, yanking Doke. I hope Mitch is not psychologically slammed by his coach’s not counting on him to make a difference. He is a quick and earnest competitor who has occasionally made a difference. Also, I notice that Lon Kruger is being roasted over hot coals for his decision to foul Doke. Give it a break! What competitive opposing coach would not have done the same thing? Weber? Ratzo? That little bully at Wichita State?
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@REHawk Until things change with Doke - -Kruger by far won’t be the last. – -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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I don’t necessarily disagree with you. You know Coach Self personally and don’t you think that he knew what he was doing knowing it could cost a game? It is not like suddenly Coach Self became completely incompetent, right?
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@JayHawkFanToo I think Self is the best coach KU has ever had. But I’m only speculating if perhaps he learned something by the way the KU OU game played out.
I want #14 almost more for Self and his legacy, than I do for myself or us fans, because he will have crafted it. Thats the macro view. But Udoka’s FT woes are unbelievably maddening, considering what’s at stake. We’ll see how this conf race plays out, we’re still in driver’s seat.
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@REHawk wow, i cant imagine anyone roasting Kruger for hackaDoke, where did you see that? …why would anyone roast him? It was a brilliant, timely tactic when nothing else was working for OU the whole game…they never really closed the gap, until several empty KU possessions in a row.
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@Ralster they did ask him about it during post game and he wouldn’t address it, he was embarrassed, it seemed to me.
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Thats because he conspired with the refs period. He didnt adress it because he didnt want the media to pick up on the fact that when the game was on the line the refs bailed OU out!
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The refs bailed OU out and got away with it. Its really obveous to see that the refs were in on the win. Its not supposed to happen but it IS happening across the board. It is coach Selfs job to see that and adjust accordingly. He FAILED miserably.
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Regarding Dok’s confidence:
Watch Dok shoot free throws in the Baylor game, especially the second shot after missing the first. He looks defeated. He sulks, looks at the floor… his broken psyche is pretty apparent.
Self needs to stop worrying about damaging his confidence. Based on his body language, it couldn’t be much lower.
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This post is deleted!
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@bskeet Maybe that’s exactly the point. Self already knows Doke’s free throw confidence is in the basement. If doke goes 2-6 instead of 0-6 (not unreasonable considering the averages) he WINS that game for KU by MAKING FREETHROWS! That’d be the biggest confidence boost ever! Obviously in hindsight it didn’t work. But as you have pointed out, it is unlikely to have hurt his confidence any more. Self gambled. It failed. He admitted it was his fault and took responsibility for the loss. We can argue the validity of the decision with the benefit of hindsight but I don’t know that we can fault the intent.
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Well here it is two nights later. I’ve had time to calm down now and try and be rational - -looking for to our NEXT game. - I’m still alive - -the world is still spinning and time to move on now - -got to just really strap it on - -and maybe next time in this situation Coach will put Mitch in with his 82 % free throw shooting - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Jayballer54 KK brought up something yesterday on the radio. When the opponent reaches the 1 and 1 in fouls in the first half why wouldn’t opposing coaches foul Doke the next 3 times down the floor until they reach the double bonus? It would seem to be a great way to get a stop, especially if KU is on a roll and has the momentum. Doke is unlikely to make more than 1 or 2.
The point being that this might not only be an end game strategy for the rest of the season.
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Barney said:
@Jayballer54 KK brought up something yesterday on the radio. When the opponent reaches the 1 and 1 in fouls in the first half why wouldn’t opposing coaches foul Doke the next 3 times down the floor until they reach the double bonus? It would seem to be a great way to get a stop, especially if KU is on a roll and has the momentum. Doke is unlikely to make more than 1 or 2.
The point being that this might not only be an end game strategy for the rest of the season.
Even less likely to make the first too. I can’t remember more then 5-6 times he’s made the first all year
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@BeddieKU23 Yes, that is the point. If the opposition has fouls to give from several bigs why let him dunk in your face, foul him early.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Barney said:
@Jayballer54 KK brought up something yesterday on the radio. When the opponent reaches the 1 and 1 in fouls in the first half why wouldn’t opposing coaches foul Doke the next 3 times down the floor until they reach the double bonus? It would seem to be a great way to get a stop, especially if KU is on a roll and has the momentum. Doke is unlikely to make more than 1 or 2.
The point being that this might not only be an end game strategy for the rest of the season.
Even less likely to make the first too. I can’t remember more then 5-6 times he’s made the first all year
Wait, - -he made his 1st attempt of the night against Oklahoma - -nothing but net - pure swish- -didn’t make another one the rest of the game. - - - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Barney That’s been my fear all along. It’s why I’ve been lobbying for Dok to play through fouls as long as the other team isn’t in the bonus. He’ll have plenty of time to sit.
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That’s one. They are far and few between
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BeddieKU23 said:
That’s one. They are far and few between
very far - -and very few for sure. - - -ROCK CHALK ALLD AY LONG BABY
