Platoon Tarik and Perry?
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@VailHawk Yes, we’ll use JNew as our wire to Wild Bill. Alas, he will say something like, “I don’t give a flip about jaybate, Jesse. What does Vail think?”
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@REHawk During my career, I made my living outside the box, so it is a comfortable place for me.
Also, I’ve always had the knack for moving chess pieces to optimize, but not always the knack for recognizing at the earliest possible moment why they need to be moved. I nibbled around the edge of this idea a month and a half ago shortly after the first signs of Perry struggling on the glass with a few players surfaced–around the time of SDSU. But he kept bouncing back and playing some great games in between the disappearances, so I just figured sit back and wait for him to get consistent at the 4. I didn’t really see the issue clearly then. I was paying too much attention to all of his game. It took me awhile to see that most of his game was already consistent and that it was rebounding against LSAs that was his obstacle and that it occasionally had blow back for the rest of his game, but often not. Perry is one of Self’s many talented players playing out of position over the years. He is one of the guys that needs to be on the floor as much as possible. It just doesn’t all have to be at the 4 all the time.
So: to reiterate for others (not for you, because you get it), Perry appears to have some rebounding issues against certain types of 4s, so go with the Great Bear at the 4 for those guys maybe half the game (probably about 1 out of 3-4 teams), and, as you said, during certain designated stretches that Tarik can mentally prepare for every game–maybe 4-6 minutes late in the first half, maybe the same from 15 down to 10 minutes to go in the second half. Keep letting Tarick spell Joel 10 minutes a game. Boom Tarik is at 20 mpg regularly and then up to 25-30 (if he doesn’t get gassed) against the 4s that can keep Perry off the glass. Perry gets 25 at 4 most games and spells Wigs 5-10 per game, so Perry is at 30-35 most games. I really think Perry and his spin moves could cause a 3 a lot of trouble when ever Perry posted him back side on ball reversal.
The thing that is so fun about coaching basketball is the way you can slide minutes around.
Thanks as always for giving me a listen, coach.
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@jaybate 1.0 I think you know this, but I’ll be one that is quite surprised if Ellis ever plays any significant role at the 3. I think it sounds good. I think we wish it could happen. But is there anything about Ellis that says “3” other than the things about Ellis that don’t say 4?
When I think 3, I think Dr. J. I think Dominique Wilkens. I think Larry Bird. I think Brandon Rush. I think Andrew Wiggins. But really, I also think guard, not big guy. Meaning I think it is much more likely to see say Tharpe/Mason/Frankamp in together than Lucas/Traylor/Ellis, for example.
Literally the only reason for the “Ellis at the 3” discussion is his inadequate defense at the 4. That standing alone justifies the conversation. He shrinks from contact on the offensive end. However, that alone does not justify it. It’s something we would accept whole heartedly if he played decent defense.
If Black and Ellis platoon, I would think that it would simply mean a decrease in Ellis’ PT, and not any move to the 3. Just my opinion there.
And by the way, the idea of decreasing Ellis’ PT is a great topic as Ellis’ effective appears more match-up base than any other player on the team.
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@globaljaybird As I mentioned to REHawk above, I did not propose this as a punishment of Perry. The team is about to win its 10 conference title with a bunch of freshman and him and Naa. Perry and Naa should take some pride in having shepherded this flock of yearlings this far. I know Perry is rather heady for a big man, and often appears to be thinking about what he is doing, but I suspect when you are playing hi-lo with a guy who has probably never played it before and has only played hoops three years, it makes a thinking man’s player like Perry kind of shake his head sometimes. Like what is this guy going to do next! Lucklily much of Joel does is good, but it sure isn’t always predictable for a teammate, if you know what I mean. So: yes, Perry is kind of a tweener, but that is descriptive rather than a negative criticism. And I was just trying to figure out how to get both of them the most minutes possible in match ups most conducive to letting them do their respective things they each do best.
Rock Chalk, as always, Global. And I sure hope your dog is better, or onto the great kennel in the sky, so he (and you) are free from the suffering.
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@drgnslayr Ah, the 8th grade prom date! That year of school I was suddenly a perspiration machine and the girl I asked to the dance was a really sweet young girl who agreed to slum it with me. Man, did she feel good to me when I put my arms around and held her to “slow dance,” as we used to call it in those days. But before the first chorus was finished, my arm pits were dripping pools of teen hormone development. She was such a nice girl she never mentioned it to me all night long. In fact, she said she was sweating too. As soon as she said it, we both laughed and began to bugaloo and alligator for the rest of the night like a couple of colts let out into the pasture to run. It was a great night. The kind of night that makes you realize how great women with heart and humor are and how great they can be. She changed the course of my life that night just by being willing to have fun without judging me on the dance floor. Where ever you are, Suzy, I want to thank you, because you made all the difference in my self confidence and gave me the ability to be myself with girls and then women. What a gift you game me! And all we did was kiss! Way, way above average kisses, too!
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@jaybate 1.0-Hey jb,Woody’s hangin in there PDG, thanks for thinking of us. His appetite is still great considering he has lymphoma in the esophagus. He eats’ as good from a spoon as a most people & he still gets his Pro Plan only now with REAL beef & chicken & broth. Instead of daily he’ll eat smaller amounts but more often. Even though he’s dropped few lbs., he’s right about fightin weight. Doc says it may be only weeks & could be months. Either way he enjoys being a baby & all the attention that brings. I’m trying to look beyond that to what you said before about running long & playing hard in the fields of the Lord. He given us far greater than we could ever do for him, so when the time comes that he does struggle, we know what we’ll have to do. Just like with any loved one you are never ready to let them go, but at least when you know the time is limited, you can always add that little special extra effort or touch to the mix. Thanks for the kindness & prayers jb, they’re certainly much appreciated.
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@jaybate 1.0 ewwww! TMI, a sweaty, slobbery jaybate???
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@HighEliteMajor-HEM, I’m pretty sure we’re correct on that line of thought. D is the key & PE won’t be a three!
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@globaljaybird all about match ups, and Tarik can’t play 4 against, ISU
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@HighEliteMajor You and Self are same page on this, so you’re on thick ice. And I am the one walking where it’s cracking.
But sometimes you’ve got to cross some thin stuff to get to where you want to go.Perry has length and good shooting mechanics. He is fast in open court. His sinewy physique that is thin from waist up and solid from waist down is the classic 3. Of the great 3s you mentioned, only Brandon grew barrel chested and strong shouldered with maturity and Weights. Silk Wilkes was another thin up solid down 3.
To give your logic it’s due, Perry hasn’t got the smooth athleticism of the 3s you mention…yet. Maybe he never will, but he has more length than most.
And if he had worked on perimeter footwork instead of below the belt muscle and posting and running from low block to top of key for two years, he would have a nice fluid floor game instead of a muscle game from the waist down without enough arm and shoulder strength to play in the paint.
In the post he is a spinner. Great when he can spin, not when not. He is not a good back to the basket jump and muscle guy without his spin move; this is why LSAs are so tough on his game. Spinning is flanking. It is quickly hooking around someone. But LSAs can stop the hook move around them with holding, shouldering and bodying; then he lacks the muscle to bang with them.
It seems clear what is going on with Perry. His only money in the paint is a spin game most LSAs can stop, plus he lacks the arm and shoulder strength to grab the caroms he gets to.
His confidence that is taking a beating at the 4. The last few games he is showing signs of knowing he cannot compete against the good players at his position. And now the lesser players are studying how to stop spin game, as OU did.
Self appears to be keeping Perry at the 4 out of pragmatic need in hopes he will one day bulk up on top with Hudy, but Perry has not bulked up.
To play inside, Perry needs 10 more pounds in the shoulders and 15 pounds in the legs. And it’s got to be muscle.
All he has to do is lose ten below the waist and he is a long 3 that needs to work on his feet and limberness sliding and potting the open trey. Dribbling too.
I prefer making hard changes that leave you with big MUA increments rather than small. Perry could bulk up, but he would still be a short four. On the other hand, he could lean up and be a long 3 that could be very tough on defense and develop a nice OpenLook three that almost no one could block.
I know you and self see Perry as being too physically limited to play The three, but I see a lot more flexibility in him for perimeter play.
Doesn’t look like my POV it will prevail in this case. Such is life sometimes.
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@Crimsonorblue22 to keep things in perspective, you routinely watch the guy sweat a lot more out on the floor that I did at the dance.
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@globaljaybird I think that it is impossible for anyone who has not gone through what you are going through to understand. We have, and we do.
From Will Rogers: “If dogs do not go to heaven, I want to go to wherever it is that they go.”
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@jaybate 1.0 It is always an education to read your posts, but speaking from personal experience, it is a lot easier to bulk up than it is to lean up!
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@lincase There is a good twilight zone episode about a man and his dog at the gates.
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@lincase-It’s not what you do or show on the outside that means your measure, but what is treasured & too often immured on the inside that truly counts. Thank you so much for the kind words.
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@jaybate 1.0 amen to that!
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@jaybate 1.0 Great post and thoughts for consumption. At least we agree Perry brings a bit more than 6’8 Kevin Young did? Or does he? I would say Fred Hoiberg might say Ellis brings more than KYo did, considering what Ellis did to IowaSt in the BigXII Tourney last season.
Genetic question: Ellis got some height, but maybe not all the fast-twitch muscle he could have? Purely rhetorical. But he sure doesnt have the bounce that 6’8 Traylor does.
Or its all playstyle differences? Ellis is a finesse player with a thoughtful or deliberate mental disposition. Jamari Traylor is a garbage-man type role, playing with an inner fire (we all know his touching story) which only fuels and fits into Self’s requirements for toughness and hustle out of his bigs. This is NOT a slam on Ellis (or Jamari). Just like getting mental aggression out of athletically-gifted EJ was a real chore, while Tyshawn seemed to be arrive with built-in aggressive mentality for guard play. That is part of why Tyshawn started from Day 1 as a frosh.
All I can say, Ellis better be looking over his shoulder, because if he did, he would bump noses with fire-breathing Jamari Traylor. …and isnt that 6’9 monster Cliff Alexander soon to arrive at KU (in about 4mos?). Somebody go inform Ellis that Alexander shows up to show-up in JUNE.
(I just want more out of Ellis, but after seeing EJ’s struggles, this may all be a mental battle inside of Ellis to break out of his own personality, which is VERY hard to do).
I’ve also seen Lucas play with a toughness and swagger that is very tantalizing to watch. Man, I wonder what he could do with 20+mpg? I’d sure like a better chance to evaluate him…
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@jaybate - So, I didn’t see you mention Perry’s long neck? Kind of like the “short legs” thing with Tharpe a bit. One of my favorite topics was your analysis of Perry’s height being a bit over stated because he had low shoulders (and a long neck), as the shoulder height was really what mattered. So he’s really 6’5". Good stuff.
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@ralster “…but after seeing EJ’s struggles, this may all be a mental battle inside of Ellis to break out of his own personality, which is VERY hard to do).”
This concept of breaking out of one’s personality in basketball is very insightful and powerful. I will have to think on it, but suspect you are on to something crucial.
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Body morphology, beyond height, strength and hops, is something often overlooked by fans. And often misinterpreted by those, like me, that do consider its contribution to shaping a player’s performance envelope. But I do still think that Perry’s body morphology may be contributing to an uphill battle for him.
That being said, I am also a strong believer in the competitive mind’s ability to compensate in certain ways for what the body seems to constrain, and also in the capacity of one’s mind at times to become its own obstacle. For this reason I suspect ralster maybe onto something with Perry. But again, his conception of breaking out of one’s mind/personality type is a bit more global than I have ever applied the notion in basketball, so I have to think on it some more.
Finally, it has occurred to me a time or two of late that Perry’s seemingly anomalous pattern of up and down play may also have some kind of injury component to it that remains in the category of “not admitted to yet.” I have avoided remarking on it, because his play seems to swing so extremely from impressive games to nothing games; i.e., how could an injury enable him to play great one game and disappear for others? But we have seen various kinds of counter intuitive performance phenomena often track to unadmitted injury, so I cannot totally disregard its possibility in Perry’s case either.
Whatever, something, or some combination of things, appears to be triggering anomalous performance swings in Perry. The Designer appears such a stalwart, hard working and talented person in so many ways, I can only say at this point that I do not recall observing anything quite like it before.
Whatever, I still believe in Perry Ellis the basketball player and think we will see more “impactful” games from him.
Puzzlement is not the same as doubt in my case…yet.
Rock Chalk!
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@jaybate 1.0 I think the body morphology thing is interesting, and real. So is body balance. So is % of fast-twitch. As I mentioned above, just look at the differences between 6’8 Marcus, 6’8 Ellis, 6’8 Traylor, and 6’8 KYoung. The most land-locked of the bunch is Ellis. KYo had a nose for the ball and for rebounds. Rarely does Ellis. But Ellis is a finesse scorer extraordinaire, perhaps better than Marcus. Every players game is going to be HUGELY determined by the type of reps they put in prior to college, and the type of shots they grew accustomed to shooting…after all, those performances are what determined their highschool ranking and earned them the MickeyD label.
Maybe the best thing to say is compare 220lb Selden with 220lb Ellis. Look at the mentality difference in finishing around the rim. Finishing with contact seems to be a learning curve for Ellis, while it is not for Selden.
I got a NASTY feeling that Cliff Alexander will show up in June, and will wow & amaze everybody at KU. He may have a lot to learn about the offense, but he has the mental disposition to be an effective BillSelfBigman. You can see it.
For now, put the quiet Perry Ellis in the EJ/Withey category. Not mentally aggressive. If we could put Sherron’s brain into Ellis’ body (or Elijah’s), then you would see the perfect Bill Self recruit. Players who arrive with everything they need mentally (aggressivity), and physically (mad hops): Tyshawn, healthySelby, Chalmers, Mason, Thomas Robinson, Embiid, Brannen Greene, AW3, Selden, Traylor…
So Ellis is another “longnecker”, eh? Kind of like Releford? I do think that was a bit of a sleight to Releford, since he was always thought of as a slasher and a dunker. Credit to him that he agreed to dedicate himself to what the team needed, just like RussRob did. When called upon to score, he did.
I agreed with the descriptor of Tyshawn “whippet”, which fit him to a (skinny) tee.
Enquiring minds want to know: what are your analytical morphology nicknames for: Brady? KYo? Reed? Sherron? Frankamp? Withey? Cole? (funny stuff forthcoming, i hope. No malice to the players, of course). All in good fun
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@jaybate 1.0 Speaking of 6’5 players playing up sizewise, how about 6’5 PJ Tucker grabbing 16 rebounds in the NBA. I’m glad to see the Texas tweener getting his shot with the Suns. When he went draft and they labeled him a tweener and dismissed him, I thought it a disservice. He was a hell of a Longhorn.
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@ralster Just a gangbuster post. Thx. Your compare and contrast gives graphic relief and focus to Perry’s game in a way I have only struggled toward.
You shined informing light on the issue of how deeply players minds are instituted by their long years of childhood play. It made me recall my own fake right drive left that got me through kiddie leagues and junior high and sophomore years only to not be enough once defense began to be well taught. I was a long legged lefty and I learned it unconsciously as the only way to get around my older brother on the backyard court. I was so quick with that move. I could drive on anyone with it because I could move their feet and then the split second they weighted to their left and I saw their right foot unweight I drove “at” the unweighted foot. Tall, short, fast slow, strong or weak, hops or not, if I got them to unweight that right foot then with my long first step and good left hand, I was gone! I could probably still do it now. It carried me for years; then boom the coaches taught balanced sliding, keeping the trailing foot weighted and hedging the strong hand and I had to look for a new trick! And it was hard to give up my old trick.
Hence, your “breaking out of your personality” resonated deeply as an extension of breaking out of a single move! In one’s adult non basketball life,one has to break out of one’s personality about ever ten years or so, as these are the phases of a life one must get beyond. So: now that I have thought about it, it that certain strongly constituted aspects of learned play and broader personality in basketball could/would trigger the need for basketball personality breakouts too. Anyway you seem to have caught that aspect of Perry.
It will be interesting to see if Perry’s issue is more about personality break out, or fast twitch muscle tissue. My hypothesis would lean to personality.
I will try to add some characterizing nicknames if I can about the players u mention, but I probably already would have if I could have.
Rock Chalk!
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@jaybate 1.0 You had an advantage going left. Back in the day, most kids wrote right-handed and played sports right-handed. That leads to a preference of driving right and jumping off your left leg on a right hand layup. A good move to the left was rare. These days they teach going both ways and defending it.
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Love the read from @jaybate and @ralster concerning Ellis.
I’ve said this before… but will expound on…
I think Ellis is a bit a victim of his own early training. The guy lived in the gym. He has worked on his game more than anyone on this team. It has given him a stuffed toolbox to draw from anywhere inside the trey line.
But what stands out as obvious? What stands out to me is that Perry worked for hours and hours (years and years) on perfecting his moves by himself. That’s great to work out the bugs and to make everything flow well. However… while Perry was working on his game alone, other players his age were just going at it… in pickup games.
This has created a sort of deficit for Perry. He always brings a perfect shot and form with him, but how often does he get smoked trying it? It appears obvious that Perry’s well-polished toolbox is more of a theoretical toolbox. One that works perfect when he is all alone, imagining using it against competition.
I haven’t seen Perry adjust his game… especially in mid-air. All those other guys that spent all their early developmental years on a court in pickup games may not have as many polished tools… but what they have are tools that have been tested against competition.
Perry’s theoretical toolbox worked great in HS… where no one plays defense and he mostly played smaller, weaker players. In the college world, Perry often meets his match. And what does this say about what he will do in the NBA?
I think it has definitely hurt him on defense. He couldn’t practice defense in a gym, working out alone. He should have been mixing it up more in pickup games.
Perry’s enigma factor has held him down.
Just compare him to Wayne. Wayne grew up playing pickup games. He probably spent some good time on his own, too, building his toolbox. Wayne knows how to finish better at the rim or when he is being defended. Wayne has some concept of how to create scoring space. Wayne is one of the better x-axis players we have had in years! He sees angles… he sees pathways to scoring.
Wayne has had a life full of pickup games… probably a ton of 1-on-1. More so than Perry!
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I think you’re right on. I will add a couple of thoughts.
Perry was also hurt by avoiding the AAU scene for much of his developmental phase. This makes him a very well coached player. Unfortunately, it also meant that most of his game time was spent playing against smaller, weaker, less skilled players. Perry didn’t spend as much time at skills camps and AAU tournaments playing other elite 6-8+ guys, getting those all important reps in live action.
Perry is a smart guy, though. He has made a lot of steps this year to cover some of his issues. However, the fact remains that while he is a good athlete, Perry is not a great athlete. He’s not explosive enough to elevate over defenders, and, while strong, he’s not strong in the way that a guy like Wayne Simien was strong. He’s very skilled and very polished, but I don’t think that will lead to an NBA career for Perry, at either the 3 or 4. The types of athletes at the 3 in the NBA (Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Paul George, etc.) are guys that he doesn’t match up well with.
However, Perry could put himself into Jayhawk lore with some very nice career numbers. I would put him in the 1600 point neighborhood for his career, which slots him very nicely between Wayne Simien and Mark Randall for 12th all time. He has an outside chance of catching Kevin Pritchard (1692) Kirk Hinrich (1753), Dave Robisch (1754) and Paul Pierce (1768) if he bumps his per game average up to around 15.5 a game to get into the top 10.
He should get into the top 10 in career rebounding, probably somewhere around Scot Pollard, Wilt Chamberlain, Wayne Simien, Cole Aldrich and Drew Gooden in the 850-900 range.
He may not ever be an All-American, but I wouldn’t be shocked if he was an academic All-American and finished his career as both a top 10 scorer and rebounder at one of the elite programs in the nation. That’s nothing to sneeze at. And he could win a national title while he’s here, too.
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Right on the money!
Young, developing players can impact their athleticism quite a bit through working out. But we are all given a genetic code that largely maps certain aspects… like ratios of fast-twitch to slow-twitch muscles.
Players can improve their fast-twitch… at least, up to the ceiling of their genes. Perry’s early development didn’t emphasize his fast-twitch development. He worked on his choreography and toolbox… that’s all in a slow-twitch mode if he wasn’t working it on competition. Competition requires use of fast-twitch.
It also explains his introverted personality. Basketball is a team sport. It is all about being extroverted… talking to your guys… communicating… getting on the same rhythm… developing playing relationships that feed on each other… building momentum as a team.
We often see Perry sort of on his own.
I think the key for Perry is to almost stop working out on his own. Restrict his late night work outs on his own. And instead… involve almost all his focus to scrimmage play. Pick-up games… 1-on-1.
Actually… 1-on-1 should be his tool for working on his toolbox. 1-on-1 is both competitive and has a degree of isolation… the focus is specifically down to two players.
Perry should be best friends with Andrew and JoJo. He should go at it with both of those guys, 1-on-1. Both are good defenders representing an inside and outside game.
I know his future potential in the NBA may be at the 3. But he doesn’t play like a 3 yet. He is a tweener. Which I posted about before how being a tweener also has it’s advantages at the next level. NBA teams are constantly redefining who they are. The goal is to create match-up problems.
If Perry can strengthen his body over the next couple of years, and refine his 3-pt shooting and ball skills… he’ll become one of the most diverse players in the draft. And though he doesn’t have “all-star” written all over him… he does have “journeyman player” written all over him, and those players probably have the best quality-of-life of any players in the league!
