More Flag/Anthem Controversy
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That’s a strong argument you make. Yet that’s not my beef. I’m a capitalist to the very core of who I am. I have no problems with persons using their God giving abilities to take a piece of the pie for themselves. Lets be fair? There are so many with less talent, size, and strength that get passed over just because the have less talent, size, and strength. They practice just hard and put in just as much time trying to be better/best at the sport they play. Yet just because of their talent level, size, and strength they have no chance. Yet that is just life. No argument.
However though I admire their abilities and envy them in some ways. I tune in to watch what they can do in the sport they play. I don’t care how much money they make. Could care less how big their house is. What kind of car they drive means a hill of beans to me. I also don’t care about their thoughts on the pressing issues of our day.
LeBron held a media conference to today to attack Trump. Good for him. In fact I respect him for it. No why? Because I wasn’t forced to watch it. Yet I could if I wanted too. LeBron gave me the option. So I respect him for it. Yet when it’s game day lets set aside views/issues and play the game. When these football players protest they are forcing their thoughts/views on me. They are making me aware of what they think is right without a debate/conversation. I just want to watch the game.
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Nba media day, I’m always right
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Still not a game? Soooo don’t pat yourself to hard. LOL
I mean lets be honest Media days are filled with questions that have nothing to do with the Sport they play in. So if you watch media days one should expect info that has nothing to do with the game.
So damn you got me. I didn’t say media days. My bad.
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Want to know what I think/feel? Well this person speaks for me.
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Way to throw a red herring on the issue. I have indicated several times that I do not have a problem with athletes expressing their opinion on this or any issue as long as they do it on their own time and without disrespecting what most of us hold in high esteem.
I would actually listen to them and have more respect if they would call a press conference on their own time or if they actually would, on their own time, do something about it and help the community. Funny that Kaepernick did not seem to bother with any of it until he was benched and then the protest started. I don’t see any of the other players protesting doing anything to help solve the issue either other than alienating fans.
Again, the issue that I and many others have IS NOT what they are doing but how they are going about it. You can spin it any way you want but this is what it boils down to.
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My problem with this whole it’s my right to this is a bunch of crap from the democrats and the NFL (I’m independent, don’t like republicans ether). So democrats what about the right to refuse service to anyone like a say baking a cake for someone. The right to free speech is just fine to democrats, unless it’s it Ben Shapiro at UCB or any conservative.Protesting is just fine if your standing on buildings shooting cops or burning cities to the ground. But it’s not okay to protest in Charlottesville (disagree with why they protested but it’s still their right). The NFL says Tebow should keep his beliefs to himself, they say the cowboys can’t wear stickers to support murdered cops and players can’t wear cleats in memory of 9/11 but according to the NFL they support freedom of expression so they are fine with the protest. Only supporting what you think is correct could be labeled as a number of things including fascism, racism and Neo-nazi. Last time I checked the court heard both sides of the argument, not just one. Next I didn’t vote for Trump, he has said some troubling things forsure but I’ve never seen or heard of anything racist come out of his mouth. Clinton calling African American males ultra predators wasn’t racist so what has Trump said that is? Most the issues with this country right now would much easier to fix if people worked together, instead of I’m right you’re wrong narrative.
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Think I’m with Jerry Jones, who knelt tonite, on this one instead of the Prez. But heck, why should a team owner set his own policy about what the team members can do on his time while collecting his money? Any number of millions of Americans seem to think they should decide. The owners decided to allow it, it is their business, no one getting fired. Move along.
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@mayjay I agree, it’s everyone’s right to protest.
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Peacefully
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Is it really peaceful? I know you’re a sniper. Take your pot shots and then run. Yet is it really a peaceful display? I get it what is so harming about a person or persons just taking a knee? It would seem like no big deal? However this action right or wrong has upset and offended so many. So many I’m not sure the NFL realizes the affects that are coming. Espn tried to play this game, and their numbers are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down.
My wife was once previously married to a Cuban man. She had a daughter from this marriage. And this daughter loved her Cuban family as she should. On a vacation trip we visited the grandparents of my new teenage daughter. Before visiting them we had ate a full supper. However on our visit, her grandmother was persistent on cooking dinner for us. I was already bloating to the gills from our out to eat dinner. I was not expecting to eat again on this night. On being offered another dinner I was like thanks but no thanks. As we just have eaten. However before I could get the words out of my mouth, my wife said it was disrespectful to refuse a cooked meal to the Cuban culture. So I ate not wanting to be disrespectful.
Is it really that peaceful to show so much disrespect to something that so many have so much for respect for?
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Does your opinion change now that most of the owners have publicly stated their support, some even coming down to the field to stand or kneel with their team? I think it was you (could be wrong) that had said previously that players shouldn’t do this on “company time”. Now that they have sign off from the owner, is it okay to continue the protests?
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Also, just wanted to post this link of a Green Beret talking about his conversation with Colin Kaepernick where he encouraged Kaepernick to kneel rather than sit during the anthem.
Obviously its from last year, but I thought it might give a different perspective from a military guy that actually spoke to Kaepernick about his protest.
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No. The lack of respect for the flag and national anthem is not abated by the owners allowing it to happen. You understand the owners have to have good relation with the players and not many of them are not willing to alienate them; same thing with reporters. When revenue continues to drop and the checks to the NFL become smaller, we will see how it works out. Networks have already issued refunds for advertisement when the projected viewership was not met.
We will also see what happens to Alejandro Villanueva from the Steelers after his coach threw him under the bus. Now, Ben Roethlisberger has publicly indicated he is having second thoughts about the boycott.
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@JayHawkFanToo http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/25288/full-transcript-alejandro-villanueva-on-steelers-pregame-ordeal http://es.pn/2jWl5Pb
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After what the coach said afterwards, what exactly did you expect him to do?
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@JayHawkFanToo already read it
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Try to count the paper a$$hole posts on this thread?? Hint-you won’t even need to take off your shoes …
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Jerry Jones knelt for a few second BEFORE the anthem anthem and then he and the rest of the team stood up for the anthem…a little detail you left out…
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@JayHawkFanToo Whoa, you figured that out 5 days later? Did I say otherwise? Yes, I must have tried to hide something by calling attention to him! Is there any post you don’t try to correct?
My point, since you missed it just as you were totally blind to @justanotherfan’s first post, is that I liked what he did. He knelt with his players. There was absolutely no other reason to do it except to show respect for the players’ right to protest. Then when standing he locked arms with his players, showing the unity between them and him despite the President’s diatribe trying to tell owners what to do. That was the point of the rest of my post (thought I’d help you out here).
And yes, they stood for the anthem. A classy move, I thought. And still got booed for locking arms and for having knelt before. What does that tell you about the people condemning the protestors?
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Ok lets try to bring the issue down a few notches? I know me the peacemaker? LOL
Lets paint a scenario here. Lets say you were invited to speak at a funeral of a family member or friend. And lets say this person has wronged you a few times, or did some stuff you were totally against? Would use the moment at this persons funeral while they lay died in that casket surrounded by their grieving spouse, children, family, and friends to air your grievances?
Everybody knows the Flag represents the falling soldiers of this country. Though the protest maybe valid, yet why air your grievances at a symbol that represents those men and women that have lost their lives defending your rights to protest? Reopening wounds of spouses and family members that have lost loved ones serving this country.
Doesn’t make sense to me.
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@DoubleDD You have made it very clear that it doesn’t make sense to you. That is what happens when people protest–they are trying to create enough controversy to draw attention to something, and some people are more upset about the means of protest than the problem provoking it. Just accept the fact that the flag does not always connote reverent feelings in some people who feel it has been used to excuse trampling other people’s hopes and dreams. I am someone who does not approve of protesting this way, but I understand it.
All you have to understand is that not everybody feels the way you do.
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If a person has a valid protest, which maybe they do. ((yet I think black on black crime is greater)). Why would you attack something that the majority of persons feel is scared. I mean you’re not helping your cause. Take me for example. I’m willing to hear the cause, I’m willing to listen, I’m willing to understand. Yet if you’re going to attack something that has nothing to do with your cause? I’m willing to not listen to what you have to say.
There is a time and a place to protest. I’m no superstar. I have a regular job as most of Americans. I’m not allowed to protest on my job. I’m not allowed to wear controversial items of clothing when I show up to work. Last time I checked NFL football is a job.
Why would you chose to protest something that represents those that have giving their lives so you can protest?
Answer that question? @mayjay
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Just for the record I respect your posts and opinions.
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DoubleDD said:
Why would you chose to protest something that represents those that have giving their lives so you can protest?
Answer that question? @mayjay
For a different perspective, see how this veteran discusses why seeing people kneeling in protest feels like it is a tribute to his service: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/one-sacrificed-stop-using-anti-take-knee-argument/
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I get it. Yet I work with a veteran personally, and I asked him how he feels. He said that’s what I fought for, yet he did say it hurts his feelings.
I
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Why oh why are people more concerned about how people treat the symbol than what the symbol represents?
I attended a college football game yesterday where the National Anthem was presented 15 min before the game and neither team was on the field. Not sure if this was intentional, but it made me wonder if this whole thing will continue to corrode the very thing that everyone is fighting for.
One thing that certainly has become more apparent is the power of symbols in the minds of the masses. It’s as if there is less tolerance of and more sensitivity to the Nazi flag than the beliefs and principles that it represents.
So when I hear such concern about disrespecting the symbols of freedom that they are willing to repress the very freedoms the symbols represent, I have to bow my head and say a little prayer for the country and its people.
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The flag is supposed to be a symbol of freedom, an expression of the ideals that, to quote “all men are created equal”.
As government employees, police officers hold a special place in our society. They are to uphold the law and administer justice. Justice, we are told, is blind. It doesn’t care who you are, the color of your skin, your religion, gender, income or anything else. It looks only at what you have done.
Except that the point of the protests is that police behavior has not been blind, but biased. Biased in a way that people are dying. Let me type that again so we are clear.
biased in a way that people are dying
Police misconduct is especially dangerous and damaging to society because if the police are acting inappropriately, who do you call? Who watches the watchmen?
And that is the crux of the protest. Its a symbol of freedom amd justice to fly the flag, but that freedom and justice is being perverted by a few bad apples that abuse the power and responsibility that comes with the badge and the oath they take.
And yet, rather than address that, many are critical of those who would hold these bad apples to the meaning of their oath, or worse, tell those protesting that they are the enemies of freedom and justice by calling attention to this injustice.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Silence isn’t an option because it ensures that nothing will change.
Black on black crime is certainly a problem within the African American community, but guess what - it is prosecuted and punished. Do you realize how rare it is for a police officer to be prosecuted and convicted for a shooting while on duty?
That’s the reason for the protest. Its not just that minorities are being killed by police - its that their deaths are not being punished. That’s the whole point of Black Lives Matter - that if you kill a black person without justification, their life should matter enough that the killer is brought to justice, even if that killer wears a badge and a uniform.
You can do whatever you want during the anthem. But patriotism is not fulfilled by putting your hand over your heart or standing at attention. Patriotism is representing the ideals of justice and freedom for all. If you’re not interested in that, your standing for a song and a banner is just an empty gesture, like buying your wife flowers on the way home from your seeing your mistress.
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Again what do you gain by attacking a symbol (flag) that so many deem pure and something that unites the people of all colors? Just like removing statues that represent a different time and place in history. Sure it makes those that feel offended feel a little better for a day, but it really changes nothing. In fact it does more harm than good. Oh sure there is the case of awareness that can be made. Yet isn’t this case falling on deaf ears because of the attacks on the flag and the anathema? So what are you gaining?
It’s almost comical, yet for the hypocrisy that is taking place. We want to defend those that believe in the desecration of the flag and anathema as freedom of speech, yet want to get all bent out of shape because a lot of people completely disagree with how the flag is being desecrated. Doesn’t everybody have freedom of speech?
As far as I can tell we’re not even talking about why this issue has brought the NFL players to their knees. Do we even know what the issue is anymore? What is the issue about anymore? Black pride?
So I ask? It maybe a worthy cause but all you’re doing is pissing off a lot of people with these protests. If awareness is the goal. I’m pretty sure everybody knows. So what’s the end game here? To actually get some real changes? or is it just sticking it this country and it’s values? So many that have protested have said it’s not about disrespecting the military, the flag, or the anathema. Then why do it? So you know how many women and men that have served this country and fought in wars they didn’t agree with? Yet they did because they took an oath to defend and protect this great country. So why disrespect these people to push your agenda? Just for the record there are more white people killed at the hands of cops than blacks.
MLK was a brilliant person. For you see he understood to truly gain equal rights and respect. You have to get those not in your camp to believe in your cause. He did just that. He didn’t disrespect people. He didn’t label them as racist, He didn’t spout about white privilege. He didn’t label the president of his time as a Hitler. No he spoke of his dream, and in doing that he captured the hearts of whites, blacks, and minorities. Americans love dreams.
Even if you don’t mean to disrespect the flag/anathema? That’s what you’re doing. If we are going to destroy symbols of freedom and that unite us. Just because we think we have the right too? Then his country is further down the road to self destruction than I thought. I guess at this point all we can do is lower our heads and pray.
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It’s no more an attack on the flag than what many white people do on a daily basis. Don’t even get me started on that. The players are using their platform to draw attention to an issue they feel is a problem. They are within their rights as US citizens.
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US Flag Code Chapter 10.176I “The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.”
US Flag Code Chapter 10.176I (pt 2) “It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like…”
US Flag Code Chapter 10.176I (pt3) “…or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard.”
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@BShark I am sure that there are many historical tweets from the Prez calling for boycotts of these products. I just seem to have missed them.
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mayjay said:
@BShark I am sure that there are many historical tweets from the Prez calling for boycotts of these products. I just seem to have missed them.
Trump’s twitter is completely ridiculous.
Tells Obama to get it together with hurricane relief years ago. Out golfing when Puerto Rico (part of the US) is in dire need of help.
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Well I tried to have a sensible conversation. Well now some have turned to bashing Trump. Like Obama never played golf when his country needed him?
Oh and do some research on Puerto Rico. The supplies are there waiting to be dispersed. It appears the liberal government officials of Puerto Rico are playing some politics with people lives.
Anyways the NFL numbers are down. Directv is offering refund to their NFL packages. Fans are burning their memorable and tickets. But hey keep doing what your doing, because it seems to be working so well.
Thank God for the internet. Now the real voices and stories can get out.
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Crazy racists are burning their memorabilia and tickets*
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At one time in this great country. Racist used to mean:
“a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another”
Now if you disagree with someone your a Racist. I’m pretty sure those burning their memorable and tickets because of the lack of respect for the American flag and anthem are indeed not racist. After all there have been white football players kneeling too. Not to mention these same fans bought all that memorable and tickets before some felt it was ok to disrespect the flag and anthem. They weren’t racist before, but now there’re racist??? LOL
Reality. It’s not really that your a racist. It’s because that person has lost the argument and has now resorted to name calling, and bashing the very person that is blowing holes in their argument. Its what they do. Instead of taking a step back and thinking about the issue and arguments that are being made. They push forward by changing the rules of the game. Realizing they have a weak argument, yet can’t admit maybe they could be wrong. They resort to name calling and using the racist card.
Some things never change.
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Chiefs!
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@Crimsonorblue22 beat the drum Salvy!
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Just for the record I’ve burned no jersey’s or tickets. With a little research a person will find that not all NFL players are showing disrespect for a symbol of freedom.
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@DoubleDD @BShark maybe y’all should just agree to disagree and see things from an independent point of view lol. Trump has sent help to Puerto Rico, I work with people who are only at our plant to help with projects that are from Puerto Rico. They are getting help from several places. Trumps twitter account is stupid and looks like a pissed off 12 year old is running it most the time. Racist just means someone that disagrees with a democrat in this day and age (see last 3 campaigns). Trump is so racist that Will Smith had him guest star on the fresh prince when I was a kid. I kinda think of politics as a business, could imagine how quickly you’d go out business if your slogan was "Use Roberts roofing, cause if you don’t you’re racist!
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@kjayhawks Fwiw I don’t believe Trump is actually racist but he played America like a fiddle during the election.
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@BShark yes he did, Obama care hasn’t been repealed and the swamp hasn’t been drained. The trouble is name me politician who’s not full of shit.
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Wall isn’t up yet either, lol.
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That’s funny I thought it took the house and senate to pass these things you speak of. Can’t blame Trump for trying? Because he is trying. Yet some are standing in the way. Not going to mention names. Yet somehow I think voters are going to remember who is standing in the way. Good luck with midterms and the next presidential elections. LOL
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Trumps medical plan was the worst thing ever. Pure garbage.
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Disappointed that Peters still sat down for the anthem and pre-game festivies after it was dedicated to the victims of the Las Vegas shooting which includes off duty police officers that were injured trying to help. I agree it’s his right, just kinda chicken ***t IMO. I laughed a little when he was burned for 2 TDs.
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Yea like Obama care is killing it. Oh wait maybe it is?
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The protest has always been about police violence against minorities. Kaepernick said that in the beginning, its been repeated many times over. A lot of people have tried to make it about the flag, but that has never been what it is about. It’s about police violence.
Martin Luther King, Jr. was brought up by @DoubleDD. I think MLK is actually an excellent example of what is going on right now, but for completely different reasons.
This fivethirtyeight.com article talks specifically about public opinion of MLK.
Most Americans didn’t approve of the Freedom Riders (mixed race groups that rode interstate buses into the south to challenge the lack of enforcement of the Federal ruling that discrimination in busing was illegal) in the 60’s. Most didn’t approve of the March on Washington in 1963 where King gave his now famous “I have a Dream” speech. I find it funny that @DoubleDD mentions this speech specifically as the “right way” to go about things, nevermind that it was HUGELY unpopular at the time.
And MLK himself, in a 1966 Gallup poll, was viewed negatively by 63% of all Americans.
Sixty three percent of all Americans viewed Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. negatively in 1966
In 2011, 4% of Americans viewed MLK negatively.
History is funny like that. When you stand on the side of equality, history will smile on you long after you are gone.
When you don’t, you end up like George Wallace. Many Americans applauded him for standing in the schoolhouse door to prevent integration. I doubt you can find more than a handful of people that would champion that now.
Wallace ended up on the wrong side of history. What he did was popular at the time, but looks absolutely ridiculous now because he was fighting to preserve inequality.
MLK was unpopular at the time, even up to his death and probably for some time afterwards, but he’s revered now by people all around the world, of every race, because he was fighting for equality.
Curt Flood was unpopular (vilified and blackballed - hmmm, where have we seen that) after challenging the reserve clause. Although he was an outstanding player, his legacy lives on as the man who had the courage to challenge the reserve clause.
Booing players that kneel may be popular now, but in 30 years, will those same fans be embarrassed to tell their children and grandchildren that they booed Colin Kaepernick and burned the jerseys of players that knelt in the same way that those who hosed down and attacked marchers on the Edmund Pettus bridge in 1965 are now ashamed of their actions? Will an explanation escape them, the same as it does for those who can’t explain why they opposed sit-ins at diner counters?
I don’t know. I honestly don’t. But I am a student of history, and history has taught me that if you are on the side of equality, history will tend to smile on you, while those who stand silently aside, or worse, fight for inequality, are always reflected in that light in the end.
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A lot of fans at the Chiefs game-just saying!
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DoubleDD said:
Again what do you gain by attacking a symbol (flag) …
at·tack əˈtak
verb: take aggressive action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force, typically in a battle or war.
“in December, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor”Please tell me which athlete “attacked” the flag?
That’s some pretty strong rhetoric to start your post. To be honest, I stopped right there and didn’t read the rest. I will go back and read the rest because I care to hear what you have to say…,
My point is that the ‘voices’ that are being used in the debate aren’t voices that seek to bridge the divide. The voices are juiced with intent to forcibly persuade rather than to inform… on both sides
Sorry to single out one word in your post, but it serves as a good example of what I see as an epidemic of hyperbole.
