This changes what we have heard...

  • @DoubleDD hopefully there is less hate!

  • @DoubleDD Will the next generation of America be pissed that we condemned racism and white supremacy?


    And if we do our jobs well, they won’t even understand or see racism. So no, they won’t be pissed about it.

    Should we debate this topic? Sure. One side is supporting of racism or the freedom to be racist. If you feel like supporting those go ahead. The other side is against racism and denounces it. Choose your side…

    And finally, tearing down Mount Rushmore is not the same thing. George Washington is not being celebrated for being a part of the South or being a Slave owner. He is being celebrated as the First President of the United States who initially helped free our entire country from the British. He also released his slaves upon his death. I’d say all in all, George gets a pass being as how if he didn’t slaves would have probably stayed slaves for a whole lot longer and the entire continent of North America would basically all be Canada. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, and yet he also played a major role in ending slavery. You also have Lincoln, and we all know what he did… But more than anything, Mt. Rushmore is a feat of human excellence in a time where you would have never thought something so amazing could have been done. So comparing Mt. Rushmore to a statue of Robert E. Lee is really apples and oranges.

  • @mayjay

    Actually the City of Chicago did not initially deny the permit but requested a huge public peace insurance bond that was prohibitive and for all purposes amounted to a ban and then banned all demonstration on Marquette part where the original Rally was scheduled. That was the origin of the litigation and why the ACLU sided with the Nazis.

    Now that we are in this age of tearing down racist symbols, has anyone called about taking down the memorials and renaming all the buildings, schools and roads named after former Ku Klux Klan Exalted Cyclops Robert Byrd who was head of the Senate?

    How about William Fulbright who along with 99 democrat (and 2 republicans) signed “Southern Manifesto” in 1956. which declared their opposition to the Supreme Court’s decision in Brown v. Board of Education and lead the 83 days filibuster of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

    This is what Bill Clinto had to say when he eulogized his mentor and Arkansas senator:

    We come to celebrate and give thanks for the remarkable life of J. William Fulbright, a life that changed our country and our world forever and for the better. . . . In the work he did, the words he spoke and the life he lived, Bill Fulbright stood against the 20th century’s most destructive forces and fought to advance its brightest hopes.

    I don’t recall any liberal calling him a racist or asking him to resign.

    How about Andrew Johnson who was Lincoln’s vice president and selected uniquely to get votes in the South to win re-election and instituted a number of discriminatory codes at the constitutional convention and made the post-war South exactly like it was before the Civil war and created a war aftyre the the civil war in which a large number of black people lost their lives resisting his racist policies, He is universally considered the most racist president.

    Or James Monroe that created the racist Monroe doctrine that was used to meddle into the affairs of other countries. Remember that during his term the US seized a strip of West Africa and established the firt American Colony there that was later called Liberia.

    Or FDR who interned 100,000 Japanese in prisons during WWII but not Italians or Germans. After the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, he invited American athletes to the White House but not 4 gold medal winner Jesse Owens who wast the star of the games because he was also black. He started the New Deal but purposefully left out farmers and domestic which were overwhelmingly black at that time.

    Or maybe Woodrow Wilson that re-segregated the federal government. Black Federal workers were fired and the ones left were forced to use separate facilities. He unapologeticly backed what he called the “great Ku Klux Klan,” and championed the Klan’s violent disenfranchisement of southern African Americans in the late 19th century. He oversaw the brutal 2 decade occupation of Haiti and prevented the country from self-governing. Some people at Princeton, where he was political scientist, have now called for review of his record.

    Or Lyndon Johnson who routinely used the N-word when talking about black people…

    What do these ubber racist politician have in common? You tell me.

  • DoubleDD said:


    I guess my thought is where does it end? I mean Slavery has been apart of humanity since the beginning of time. It’s not like America created it.

    Not to mention American had one of the bloodiest wars to end it’s practice.

    I’m talking to you as it seems others have their minds made up and don’t care for the discussion.

    Here is the problem with that approach, and if you read the book I mentioned you will see: American slavery was racial in origin and legally perpetuated for 3 centuries. Almost every other country with slavery did it through conquest. Slavery was an economic status for many slaves. Many countries with slaves had major legal protections regarding their treatment. Slaves in Greece and Rome became teachers and tradesmen. Many could and did eventually buy their freedom. If any escaped, absent branding the slaves were not that different from other parts of society. Many slaves in Indian tribes became members of their captors’ families and were adopted into the new tribe. Slaves’ children might be born free. In many societies, slaves had an actual chance to improve their lives. Not all of these things were always true, and most slaves no doubt lived lives of pure hell, but there were many variations.

    In contrast, rigid separation of blacks from whites and brutal treatment of slaves were used to implement slavery in the US from the beginning. Slaves were forbidden to learn writing and reading, and whites teaching them were punished harshly. Slave families were broken up wantonly, and children were sold with no regard for anything except what price they could bring. Blacks in the colonial era had no society they could fit into even if freed, for 99% of black were slaves. Nowhere to escape to, their race keeping them easily identifiable. While the rest of the world acted to eradicate slavery by the early to mid 19th century, American slavery continued with even harsher slave codes after the prohibition against importing slaves took effect in 1808.

    Other differences aside, it is the racial component that most definitively sets American slavery apart. Some eleven million people were uprooted from their homes and shipped in sardine-like cinditions to a new world. Millions died. ( Only about 500,000 were brought to N America; the remainder, African slaves in Caribbean and S American sugar plantatons, had even more brutal lives, living on average 7 years after arrival.) No other race has ever seen such a forced mass migration or the disintegration of so much of its culture and heritage. No other race has ever done to another what European and colonial whites (including the Spanish and Portuguese) did to African blacks. Ironically, the closest is probably the Nazis treatment of Jews.

    Yes, it took a war to stop slavery. A war fought mostly by whites against whites. Over 600,000 soldiers dies, and scores of thousans of civilians. Just as it took nuclear bombs to force the Japanese to abandon their society and mores, the Civil War forced the South to abandon slavery. But it did not abandon white supremacy, and the South has successfully perpetuated the Noble Cause victimization myth to keep it going today.

  • Banned


    That’s kind of my point. I’m not for worshiping anybody I don’t care who they are. Every man and woman has flaws. Some rise to greatness most do not. Yet they still have flaws, and I believe that it should be studied and learned. However I do create concerns in my mind when we as a nation try to erase history. I think this might be a very bad thing. Maybe not to day but down the road.

    No qualms with that post.

  • Banned


    No not all. Just was interested in your link. That’s all. Hey I don’t blame you or condemn you for what you feel and believe to be the truth.

    Lets be honest this is a very touchy subject. A lot of emotion involved. Last thing I want to do his hurt or ruin any might be friendships over this issue. It’s not worth it.

    As I said before I get it why some would advocate for bringing down the statues. Yet I just wander is the right thing to do, and where does it stop?

  • Banned


    I’m afraid when emotion is involved on a subject like this there will be hate. I agree though.

    I’m just afraid that we are reaching a point in this country that we can’t just talk about the issues. Somebody always has to be wrong, or somebody has to be a racist.

    It kind of breaks my heart to be honest. As I believe that is the best thing about America, or used to be. The ability to voice and talk about the issues. It just doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

  • Banned


    It’s not about picking sides for me. As I get your passion on taking down the statues. Yet I’m skeptical that is where it ends. You this is a movement. Movements don’t end until they are impede. If you think this movement stops with statues then I’m not sure you’re seeing the same picture I’m seeing.

    It’s a fine thing the GW released his slaves upon death and you feel he should get a free pass. Yet you don’t control this movement. Movements are funning like that.

    Somebody mentioned/compared this issue to Nazi Germany. Some seem to forget that Hitler didn’t just take control of Germany. It was started with a movement. The citizens of Germany were poor and in some cases starving to death. Hitler blamed the Jews as they held all the wealth. It’s was a no-brainer for the citizens of Germany. Yet the movement didn’t stop and went further and further. I went farther than I would believe most German citizens wanted it to go.

    This movement is receiving a well earned victory. The statues are indeed coming down. However will it stop there? Will the leaders of this movement and it’s people be satisfied.

    That’s the million dollar question. Many of our founder fathers were indeed slave owners. Will it appease the movement that some of these founding fathers release their slaves at their demise? Or will the movement say not good enough? Lets not for get our constitution was signed by slave owners. Will this one day try to take down the constitution because it was signed by slave owners?

    Your guess is as good as mine.

  • @JayHawkFanToo I think you have Andrew Jackson and Andrew Johnson confused. Andrew Johnson was Lincoln’s Vice President, was from Tennessee, and ineffectively attempted to battle the Radical Republicans who did not want to pursue Lincoln’s plan of moderation in Reconstruction. The Republicans are considered to have abandoned any concern with southern blacks in the Compromise of 1877 to ensure election of Rutherford Hayes.

    Andrew Jackson was a despicable person but he was president decades before the Civil War. I have no clue what Constitutional Convention you are referring to. He was not involved in the US one in 1787, but he did attend as a delegate to Tennessee’s in 1797. I know nothing about what he did there. That he was an iconoclastic president (who, among other things, defied Supreme Court rulings) has endeared him to our current President, who has chosen his portrait to hang in, I believe, the Oval Office.

    As to the others you list, what is your point? Yes, they were Democrats, but with the shift in political ideologies during 1948 through Nixon’s “Southern Strategy” of 1968, the parties have traded places on civil rights and racial sensitivity. Big deal.

    You left out Hugo Black–oh, my grandfather, too. Both overcame the prejudices of their early years yo advocate for equality and justice. It would be nice if POTUS could do that, too.

  • Banned


    I don’t know about that. I mean I get what your saying. Yet it’s not like Americans went to Africa and raided tribes for slaves. Most blacks were sold into slavery by their own people.

    I’ve also read that in the south the Blacks were able to really have their own communities as long as they worked the farms. Now I’m not saying this a righteous thing by no means or the norm by any means. Don’t get any crazy ideas like I’m glossing up a pile of crap. Slavery is wrong…

    However in early America Slavery was kind of the norm for the world. Look at South America. It was basically one big slave farm, that was run by the Spanish/Portuguese.

    Just want to say thanks for being fair and bantering with my on the issue. In the end we may disagree or even agree. Yet at least we had the conversation.

  • @DoubleDD “Most blacks were sold into slavery by their own people.”

    Careful with this one. This alleged “fact” is often urged by people who think it somehow implicates blacks in the depopulation of Africa. Blacks participating in enslaving other blacks were paid to do so, and captured blacks of competing tribes. It stands to reason that if they couldn’t find anyone, they themselves would have been taken. Or do you think the slavers would have bid them a “Cheerio!” and sailed away peacefully?There was not some type of African Slave Mall where blacks sold other blacks to whites who wandered in not knowing what they were after. Slavers were fully in charge. They built it, they ran it, and any blacks trying to survive by working in it were just puppets. Repeating this canard is no more probative of black complicity in white racism than citing Jewish trustees in a concentration camp is of alleged Jewish “cooperation” in their own proposed extermination.

    And yes, North American and European shipping ran the slave trade in the 1700’s and 1800’s. The New England shipping industry is infamous for having become wealthy in the slave/sugar/rum trade triangle. There were really two: It started involving European ports but as the American colonies became a producer of more goods, the ships went from the Caribbean to New England to Africa. After England abolished slavery in 1807, many ships just went between Africa and the Caribbean. Spain abolished slavery in 1811, but Cuba kept it, so that route stayed.

    If you haven’t seen the movie 1776, you might find it enlightening (despite it being a musical). Many facts are distorted, but not the general themes. There is a song about the trade triangle and how the north had its own interest in slavery.

  • @JayHawkFanToo There’s nothing wrong with holding everyone accountable. But you act like wrongdoings by Democrats somehow justify bad things that Republicans do. Can’t we disapprove of all wrong doing without sorting it into two partisan buckets first? Do you assume that all people who agree with some liberal idealogy condone all actions by all Democratic politicians?

  • @mayjay

    No, I do not. Here is an article from the Huffington Post, a source that is high in the list of approved liberal sources, and it lists Andrew Johnson as the most racist president.

    Here is another list that has him at #3

    Here is another that has him at #1

    This one form the African Globe has him as #1 as well.

    Andre Jackson was also a racist according to the lists above.

    I enjoy history and I was familiar most of the names on the various lists although some of the details were foggy. At my age, I don’t remember details as well as I used to; thank God for the Internet.

  • @DoubleDD “I’ve also read that in the south the Blacks were able to really have their own communities as long as they worked the farms.”

    There were very few universal truths about slavery, that is for sure.

    Interesting aside: My wife and I bought a house way out in Virginia’s Stafford County. On the 3.5 acres, there was a .5 acre set aside for a private cemetery and an easement on the edge so it could be accessed.

    When we explored the overgrown cemetery, we discovered several brown flagstones upright. Most had no legible markings or only a year on them (all between 1780 and 1802). One, however, had two sets of dates, something like “1794-1806” and “1809”.

    I was interested in finding out more about the cemetery, including what our responsibilities were (if any) for maintaining it.I contacted the Virginia State Historical Preservation department. They had no record of a cemetery there, so they recorded it. They told me we had no special obligations, but legally we could not build in that set aside unless we went through a full published notice process to allow survivors of the buried to come forward, and then hired a funeral home to disinter and rebury in another cemetery (again, with published notice). They also said we would need to contact them so they could monitor the excavation because it was probably a slave cemetery.

    We had no interest in moving it, but I did more research. It turns out that one of the major sources of information about African culture brought by African slaves to the US has been found in slave cemeteries. Slaves were not allowed to keep many of their African rituals (enforced conversion), but in Virginia it was common for slaveowners to allow slaves to continue their burial practices. Among the slaves’ customs were two practices that have proven to be a boon to students of this subject. First, it was common for a decedent who had come from Africa to be buried with their dearest personal possesions, which for slaves brought here included objects brought with them from Africa–there were not many, and they were cherished. Including these in the grave was likely seen as a talisman that could guide them back to Africa. These objects have included cloth, leather objects, small artworks, and the like.

    The second practice Africans were allowed to keep was likely simply to keep slave cemeteries from eating up too much land–slaves from Africa kept the African custom of burying more than one person in a single grave, often stacking them several layers high. This has resulted in, among other things, being able to study how slaves’ perceptions and choices of the talismanic objects changed over time, and how much culture was passed down to offspring as they continued or discontinued the practice.

    The two sets of dates on that one flagstone was probably one of these graves.

    When we sold the house, our realtor wanted us to keep the cemetery a secret until closing. I disagreed, and gave the history and preservation information to the prospective buyers when they visited. The 2 teenage girls thought it was really cool, and they were hoping it was haunted.

  • @approxinfinity

    No, this is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is that if we are going to remove statues/monuments/memorials of high profile racist people, we should be consistent and consider all the high profile racist people, regardless of affiliation, and not just the ones that fit the agenda.

    I just saw that the Reverend Al Sharpton now wants to remove the Jefferson Memorial, one of the landmarks of our country; do you think we should do it?

  • @JayHawkFanToo But what Constitutional Convention are you referring to? There hasn’t been one in the US since 1787. That is why I thought there was a mixup. In any event, yes, they were both racist. So was Teddy, incidentally (Republican!). Eisenhower was, too, and probably Truman, but both used the Presidency to make some major strides in racial progress. Truman: integrating the armed forces; Ike: Little Rock.

  • @JayHawkFanToo If millions of people felt that way? Maybe. But there’s a difference. The Civil War was in large part about the institution of slavery. Jefferson represents the founding of this country, first and foremost. I don’t really care what Al Sharpton says.

  • @JayHawkFanToo @approxinfinity

    Ditto to approx in regards to the last sentence, but I am more hesitant to bow to popular sentiment on removing history. Some of it is too based on momentary passions. I believe in learning history, not erasing it. The Confederate statues are different than statues of people who owned slaves such as the founders. The founders statues are there for historical, revolutionary accomplishments. The Confederates are being honored with statues for rebelling against the United States. I have problems with lauding treason against my country. Go figure.

  • @DoubleDD I just reread your comments in the Colin K thread where you talked about the importance not only of respecting the American flag itself but also the importance of respecting what it has meant to millions of Americans.

    Please for a moment put the Charlottesville events in the context of what seeing Nazi banners and KKK flags paraded in the city must mean to Americans who know very well how those symbolize threats to their very right to existence if the people carrying them were to achieve power.

    Now, think about why – in the context of knowing how scary it is to imagine the paraders getting power – people might feel dismay when the paraders celebrate excitedly because they believe the President is legitimizing their cause. Even if they are wrong, isn’t it up to the President to forcibly clarify that he does not stand for them, that this is libel of the worst kind, and that he hates everything they stand for?

    That would uplift the value of the American flag far above the symbols of hate and extermination.

  • Banned


    Is this random or something bigger?

    This is the kind of thing that I was speaking of. This person or persons probably don’t even know that Lincoln fought to end slavery. Yet to them their lack of knowledge is no matter. Just being apart of the movement is all that matters.

    If they can do this to Honest Abe, you think GW is safe?

  • @DoubleDD Some people, of all persuasions, are just idiots and enjoy destroying things.

  • @DoubleDD also disgraceful, this story quotes a random person on an indeterminate social media platform to try to strengthen their point. Apparently, their target is not the person who did this, but rather everyone who possibly could have done this or sympathized with this.

    "F- Abe Lincoln,” responded Quintin Mitchell, whose comment was “liked” or deemed “funny” by 160 others.

  • @DoubleDD That story doesn’t even say who did it? It could have been some White Supremacist trying to get payback for all we know.

  • DoubleDD said:


    It’s not about picking sides for me. As I get your passion on taking down the statues. Yet I’m skeptical that is where it ends. You this is a movement. Movements don’t end until they are impeded. If you think this movement stops with statues then I’m not sure you’re seeing the same picture I’m seeing.

    This movement is receiving a well earned victory. The statues are indeed coming down. However will it stop there? Will the leaders of this movement and it’s people be satisfied.

    That’s the million dollar question. Many of our founder fathers were indeed slave owners. Will it appease the movement that some of these founding fathers release their slaves at their demise? Or will the movement say not good enough? Lets not for get our constitution was signed by slave owners. Will this one day try to take down the constitution because it was signed by slave owners?

    Your guess is as good as mine.

    You mean the movement of equality and ending racism? What about that scares you?

  • This whole Charlottesville thing has been really tough on me personally. As an African American, it has been difficult to put into words what I have felt over the last several days.

    The sight of hundreds of white nationalists walking down the street, proudly in broad daylight is jarring. It’s jarring because it used to be that most of these individuals wanted to hide their hateful ideals from the rest of the world. That’s no longer the case. They broadcast their hate for the world to see, arguing that they are just proud to be who they are.

    Let me stop here and say that everyone should be proud of who they are, regardless of race, creed, color, orientation, ethnicity, religion, hometown or anything else. Diversity isn’t a declaration that any one group is better than another. It is a declaration that the differences within each of us make all of us better. Diversity includes everyone, including white people. The reason that diversity offers opportunities for non whites is that generally, white people already have a seat at the table for every discussion. Diversity and inclusion are trying to add a variety to the opinions available.

    Let’s put this out there right now - the very ideology of white supremacy is that they want to spark a race riot or race war in which all minorities, immigrants, Jews and other “undesirables” (i.e. gays, non-English speakers, non-white supremacists) are either killed or driven from the country. That’s the endgame for white supremacists. To have the president act as an apologist to them is not just disappointing as a minority - it’s life threatening. That’s why you saw the white supremacists show up with guns and body armor. They weren’t looking for a peaceful march - they came for a fight.

    These groups no longer fear public shame or identification. They are emboldened. As a black man, that puts my very life in jeopardy. That is not hyperbole. That is real life. We saw last week that one man drove his car into a crowd in an act of domestic terrorism. We have seen in the past where white supremacists have tortured and killed minorities who stopped to get gas or groceries at night. If the president is going to decry the MS-13 gang (rightly, because they are a criminal gang), he should speak just as strongly against what happened last weekend, rather than blaming both sides (white supremacy groups are often funded through criminal activity as well - drug sales, robbery, human trafficking, etc.).

    This is no longer about politics. This is about human decency. One side wants equality. The other wants suppression. We fought a war 150 years ago and equality won out. Are we really interested in rolling things back, because only one side wants a do-over on that.

  • @justanotherfan I can’t even imagine what it’s like for you, please know that I stand w/you!

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    I appreciate the support.

  • Banned


    Why do you assume I’m scared? I just question the motive and reasoning for tearing down those statues. Where was this movement when Obama was in office?

    Another point is I see more young white persons wanting/demanding these statues come down than I do Black Americans. In fact see a lot of Black Americans saying leave them up. What’s going on here? If Blacks are demanding the statues come down? Then why isn’t the media and such showing them?

    Are we to bow to every demand of someone that is offended?

    I’m not trying to stir the pot by any means. Yet just trying to have the conversation. I’m not sure you feel the same?

    I see those statues not as rewarding hatred, yet as reminding future Americans of it’s history, and just how far we’ve come as a nation. I’m not alone in my thinking.

    Do polls matter?

  • Banned

  • Banned


    I guess this is the new America? Because the altleft is never violent? I wander if she feared for her life?

  • @DoubleDD stop it!

  • Banned


    To be honest she probably deserved it, as she was egging them on. Yet can’t a person stand in this free America for what they believe without fear of being beat/killed. I’m sorry that didn’t look like and Altleft crowd that cared about freedom of speech to me.

    I’m just pointing out that racism and fear goes both ways. Sorry if I’m being to surreal.

  • @DoubleDD I think there have been some pretty strong arguments for why it is the right thing to take the statues down. If there’s one thing we’ve learned about this presidency it is that polls can be deceiving, right?

  • Banned


    I agree polls can be way off, and I would never defend them. As I believe polls are taken with an agenda in mind. You no what I mean?

    I’m sorry if I becoming sour grapes on this subject. I just hate the idea that we can’t even have the conversation on the subject. I know I will be labeled as a racist because of some the points I bring up. I don’t like it. I don’t think it’s fair.

    What do we really want? equality or retribution? I never owned no slaves. I wouldn’t because In my upbringing I was taught that all persons are the same. I wasn’t taught to hate. I wasn’t taught think I’m better. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

    Me personally I think the real fight should be on public schools funding. I’ve seen both sides, and it’s far from fair. Kids in poor schools don’t get a fair shake. They just don’t. Taking down statues is a nice gesture but it changes nothing. Slavery still happened, you can’t erase that. Yet if we the people focus our passion and resources that can make a difference. Like Public school equality. That’s a fight I want in on.

    I know I’ve offended some. I just think tearing down statues does nothing. I also wandering where does it stop. With the constitution?

  • mayjay said:

    Even if they are wrong, isn’t it up to the President to forcibly clarify that he does not stand for them, that this is libel of the worst kind, and that he hates everything they stand for.

    Here are the President’s full remarks as posted by USA Today, which I am sure you would consider a valid source.

    What else can he say that he has not already? Doesn’t his statement says exactly what you said it should?

  • @JayHawkFanToo this is after his initial statement saying both sides were to blame and then saying that again on Wednesday. For a white supremacist that reads like “I don’t want to hate on you but I have to. All these things I have to say for the camera.” I think it is pretty apparent that there is very deliberate subtext here in a lame attempt to fracture as little as possible the racist voting block that powered Trump in the election. Now it’s clear that the backlash is too great, so Bannon falls on his sword and is “out” which means out the front door and in the backdoor, while dropping some ominous statements. Can you tell me what Bannon meant by:

    “His natural tendency — and I think you saw it this week on Charlottesville — his actual default position is the position of his base, the position that got him elected.”

  • @JayHawkFanToo There were 3 elements to the statement I proposed, none of which were in Trump’s actual statement. Even Fox accepted that Trump backtracked from the middle statement that contained some condemnation.

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