Flakes versus Assassins

  • Out on a limb time…

    This year will be different than past early bow outs because we have cold blooded assasins this year and no flakes. 5 guys can step up and hit killer shots in the clutch…

    Nadiir, Selden, Greene, even Tyshawn and Elijah. Frankamp and Oubre for sure. We had lots of guys who were good players, but the all had the flakey gene on some level, some more than others.

    No such gene exists in Frank, Josh, Devonte, Vick. SVI, maybe a little but he does hit some shots and by now his minutes are dwindling and Bill won’t let him hurt us.

    The Assassins, Seal Team 4, Hoops Special Ops are on a mission to get Bill #2. They are battle tested assasins who relish the pressure moments. And unlike the flakes, they don’t choke. They deliver.

    So I am out on the limb saying it is going to be a F4 year. From there, anything can happen, but I like our chances with the 4 Assasins.

  • Don’t you go bad mouthing Tyshawn. Dude was a killer, wanted it bad, he just didn’t have a jump shot. The rest I would agree with. EJ and Selden in particular, were quite aloof. Selden you knew early in the game. Did he hit his first couple looks? Oh okay it’s good Wayne he might go for 25 tonight. Did he miss em? Oh shit he might not even score tonight. EJ had some crazy peaks and valleys too.

  • I’m still enjoying last night’s gutsy win over the Cowboys too much to think about our former players. What a great win. I couldn’t be more proud of these warriors. RCJH

  • @BShark See the Gayson Allen thread for badmouthing. I’m not even talking entirely on court behavior, although that is the main focus. Ty had the least flakiness on court of the group, but he did have some. I loved EJ and Ty, so don’t take it wrong. But with it all on the line I want an assassin like Frank or Josh or DG.

  • @stoptheflop That’s the whole point, our current players are assassins!

  • I love the title and the premise.

    Let me suggest this … and it’s a theme I have pounded on for years: When you have the coach’s support, it’s amazing what can be accomplished. It’s also amazing what can’t be accomplished when a coach is not supportive.

    Would Mason, Graham, et. al., be assassins if Self was pulling them for a three point shot attempt too early in the shot clock, or for not getting the ball to the third side, or for not pounding it into the post, or if Self was flopping and flailing around on the bench when the offense deviated a bit too much? Would they be assassins if Self was publicly discussing fool’s gold, and devaluing the contributions of certain players?

    Our assassins are as much about the assassins themselves as coach Self – but regardless, it couldn’t happen without coach Self buying in and inspiring.

  • @HighEliteMajor Our coach is of course an assassin too. I think because of their lack of flakiness gene, he has given them more latitude than the guys that drove him crazy…and he drove them right to the bench, or eventually out of town.

  • @HighEliteMajor completely agree. I loved EJ. Dude was a warrior in my book, and the quick hook he got for 4 years from Self was not good for him.

    He showed up big in the 2012 tournament along with the rest of the starters, and that was mostly because Self had no bench to go to and had no choice but let them play through their mistakes.

  • Great thread. This is what it’s all about come March. Some other names to remember: Mario Chalmers, Brandon Rush, Sherron Collins, Russell Robinson. And I must mention Tyshawn + EJ together in 2012–their personalities played off each other perfectly. It’s what was missing in 2013. The only potential addition to 2012’s champ game run may have been Josh Selby, but then as much as we spin him to be some alpha dog, he also proved uncoachable, at any level. Tyshawn’s only problem in that 6game March run, was he missed every single 3 he took in 6 games.

    These 2 sets of players not only did well in March, but played into April

    Statistically speaking, I like BIFM, DG, JJ, Svi, Vick’s chances. Vick off the bench is the unsung hero. He makes the 3 starting guards that much better, because they can get a rest.

    But setting “statistics” aside for a moment, and start talking about heart, fire, passion, and cold-blooded assassin, and foot on throat–> these guys have that too. But then they’ve shown it statistically all season long. Cannot really divorce stats from crunch-time performances.

    Lets hope Frank only got the wind knocked out of him, and not an actual rib injury vs OkieSt.

  • @approxinfinity I have truly come to believe that EJ specifically, should have been allowed to play more his 1st 2 seasons. It could have created a different mindset in him. But we will never know for sure.

  • I know this is slightly off topic, but I loved the 2016 version of Selden. Had he stayed maybe JJ doesn’t come, I don’t know, but maybe we’re in the same position? If he stayed and JJ came, well, goodness, it wouldn’t have solved our depth issue on the front line, but it mitigates Svi’s ineffectiveness for sure.

    And I’ll remind you of a reason why I loved the 2016 version of Selden:

    And another reason:

    Those may be the two most memorable dunks in my KU fandom.

  • @wissox I loved Selden. But we kept wanting him to be an alpha dog. Self kept wanting him to be aggressive.

    We have no such issue with Josh Jackson. Jackson does everything Selden could do, but better. Jackson has even surpassed Perry Ellis as well, from production from the 4 spot. You wont have to worry about Josh going into some introverted “shell” either. Look what he did to KY inside Rupp arena.

    JoshFrosh > Selden in any year.

    JoshFrosh > Ellis in any year.

    JoshFrosh > Bragg, took his starting spot.

    Josh is a 6’8 small fwd who can play 4 positions with unreal court vision. Cant teach the feel of the game he has.

    Unfortunately, cloning humans has not been perfected…

  • @ralster Could you imagine a team of 5 unselfish Josh types? Would be awesome to behold but we don’t get long-stacks right, @jaybate-1.0

  • @wissox Those were sweet dunks. T-rob alley oop vs Baylor and Josh slam earlier this year were the only ones better. Maybe Raef vs MU.

    But then WAyne flaked out again.

  • @ralster Josh Selby…Lord of the Flakes!

    How could I have forgotten him? Oh wait, it was easy. The anti-Josh.

  • Team is pretty solid and one of The better 3pt teams in recent memory.

    My fear is that they give up too many open 3’s on defense.

  • @Fightsongwriter You mentioned a “team of 5 unselfish Josh types”. Well, we have Josh. And Frank. And DG. And Vick/Svi. And Landon. None selfish. All highly coached to be Self-ish (make the proper reads).

    Guys like Josh, a true OAD, is what Calipari hopes he can craft into a team with his yearly crop of 5 OADs. How poetic and ironic was it that Josh was the best OAD in that 1 game inside Rupp Arena…priceless.

  • @Fightsongwriter Great thread-Wiggs looked like the biggest flake ever the night of the draft. Hope he’s hired a good personal assistant cause his tastes were waaaaay off.

  • http://style.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/style/2014/06/andrew-wiggins-nba-draft-2.jpg

  • It’s quite hard not to look at this team, especially the way they hang tough and gut out games and find ways to hit big shots in crunch time, as a final four team. Stat comparisons aside with our past OADs, JJ is our best OAD simply because even when he is not hitting shots he still makes a difference in passing, rebounding, defense, and just plain serious hustle.

    But the NCAA tourney Is a cruel mistress. And we have a huge target on our backs… crazy things happen

    I’ve never put expectations on our team (and other teams) going into the big dance because of its crazy fun-house tilt-a-whirl nature, but This may be the first year I will truly disappointed if we’re out before the final four.

    A question- does our overall #1 seed give us any breaks? An easier bracket perhaps? Or just that we get the lowest seeded team in our first game?

  • @globaljaybird hey you are showing your age!

  • @ralster

    Better than Selby in 2012 would have been Ben McLemore who had to sit out the season, with him KU probably beats UK.

  • Don’ forget Landen. He has been huge in conference play and made some big plays last night.

  • @Crimsonorblue22 Really? Whatever… Kinda appears to me that rejection of this type of appearance has more to do with feminine vs masculine tastes-not age.

  • @globaljaybird

    I don’t know…the younger generation has completely different tastes and they wear things that people of our generation would not get caught dead wearing. I am sure our parents thought the same way when we wore what we did in our younger years.😉

  • @Crimsonorblue22 I liked Wiggins Draft Night Threads. Number 1 overall pick! I am sure he had plenty of choices on what to wear and made the best choice for him. It was Andrew Wiggins moment and I am sure he wouldn’t change a thing. Embiid should have been the second pick.

  • My favorite Self Era Assassins: Chalmers, Collins, Johnson, Mason, and Graham. All of mine were at least 3 year players.

  • @KansasComet they all wear “those kinds of suits” and “shoes”

  • @globaljaybird Self wear it better!IMG_2903.JPG

  • @JayHawkFanToo I can recall a Nehru collar & tapered jeans from another life… but some of that stuff is even too flaked out for the entertainment business. We called it “cartoon clothes” when it came from JP’s in Westport or Harold Penners at the Landing… now I am givin up my age for @Crimsonorblue22 Hope you’re happy now !!

  • @Crimsonorblue22 He wanted to look and feel like the first pick of the draft!

  • @JayHawkFanToo Who is the Shelby guy you speak of? Brother to Tayshawn or Aldridge? Maybe Seldon? Do … not … make … a … typo.

  • @Fightsongwriter hopefully your right! But I strongly disagree with Tyshawn not being a killer. You forget his senior year?

  • @HighEliteMajor

    Dang iPad autocorrect. I like the iPad a lot but I cannot get used to the keyboard or the lack of available tools I take for granted on my Windows computers.

  • @JayHawkFanToo Look into a Zagg rugged keyboard. It works great, is very sturdy, and has a long battery life. The Keyboard isn’t as big as a computers, but you’ll adjust quickly. Personally I only fire up the computer on rare occasion now as the iPad does almost everything I need.

  • @dylans

    Thanks. I do have a couple of external keyboards but I mostly use the iPad when sitting on a recliner or in bed so an external keyboard is not an option. For real work I use what i call real computer with separate keyboard and mouse and, other than portability, no tablet can beat this setup.

  • @JayHawkFanToo I’m laying in bed currently. Keyboard works great (this one attaches so the ipad sits just like a laptop. It just depends on what your preferences are. I’d love to be out and about, but a stomach bug has me empty my stomach contents about once an hour. Yuck.

    Hope you find what works best for ya!

  • I like the overall subject of this thread. But I don’t like to bash any of our ex-players in a comparison of current players.

    All players are human and have weaknesses. And this team has weaknesses, too. If March doesn’t work out like we like, then how many of our current players end up on this list?

    Tyshawn took a team that didn’t have a single McDs AA to the championship game and the only reason we lost that game was UK had a freak player in Anthony Davis.

  • @dylans

    Time to get to the office, anyway, where I have a third monitor dedicated to this forum that I can check while I do actual work.😄

  • @drgnslayr we really don’t have to many I don’t like! Most guys know that coach expects you to play D and team ball coming in. Low bb iq has hurt a few lately.

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    Are there KU players, past or present, that you don’t like?

  • @drgnslayr I really didn’t care for Brady, but it was off the court stuff.

  • @Crimsonorblue22 Chenowith was a jerk too.

  • Kirk was a dbag.

  • I like this year’s team because I look around and see a bunch of guys that will do whatever it takes to win.

    Frank will take over. Devonte is unafraid to take (and make) big time shots (the Mario Chalmers gene).

    And then there’s Josh Jackson. Josh will do whatever he needs to do to help us win. He will defend. He will rebound. He will score. He will pass. He will do whatever needs to be done to get this team over the finish line. That’s a characteristic that we have lacked for a few years, but it’s something that you need.

    Think about Villanova’s Josh Hart. Does everything for that team. Will do whatever needs to be done to get Villanova a win.

    Every championship level team needs a guy like that. KU finally has one, and as an added bonus, that guy is a surefire lottery pick talent.

  • @Fightsongwriter

    Quite an admirable limb walk. Kudos.

    And I like your moxie predicting a FF.


    It’s tough for me to paint a lot of the former guys with the Flake Brush, because it diminishes their contributions to our winning 84% of our games, 13 titles and a ring that they contributed .

    This great bunch of players this year could not have accomplished the great feat of winning a 13th consecutive title had the prior players you describe not gone on some serious and often brutal slogs through hostile terrain and frankly accomplished many things no other programs around the country without long and medium stacks of OADs came.close to accomplishing.

    There was nothing flakey about the 2012 team that made it to the Finals and got beat by a 6 OAD stack, and even then came close to stealing a win at the end.

    There was nothing flakey about many of our fine teams the last 13 years. With only one or two exceptions they fell short of rings when they met a bad matchup, while battling too many injuries, and having an off shooting, or free throwing night. These are the same things that weed out 63 of 64 teams every years.

    It is a misconception that KU has been more prone to early go-outs than most other teams. Coach K’s record of early exits was actually worse than Self’s when I studied this two years back. Coach Cal is not a good comparison, because he played ringers at Memphis and had a several year run of 6-10 OAD stacks. But even his record of early exits includes not even making it to the NCAA and an early exit from the moribund NIT.

    Even Nadir Tharpe, despite his limitations and bad choice, helped this team win a title and put it in striking range of a ring.

    And though I call attention to Andrew Wiggins’ apparent merchandise protection, especially vs. Stanford, I don’t see how anyone can doubt that despite all that team’s youth and rough edges, had Joel Embiid not gone out from injury, Andrew and he would have lead that team to a sure Final Four and likely a ring.

    I like and admire all our players in the Self years. 98% of college players just are not nearly as good as pro players and being younger with incomplete brain development just are more unpredictable.

    This year’s team has more maturity than we are used to seeing lately, and it shows in fewer “flakey” plays. It has more good long ballers and ball handlers than we are used to seeing. They have all the good qualities you rightly ascribe to them.

    But I have and could again highly praise about ALL our past teams under Self for different virtues and heroics.

    There is nothing more dramatic and harrowing and so heroic than asking young men too young to be playing with wily, hardened, mature prison bodies to play out of position and try to win titles and rings when no one believes they can.

    KU has had an amazing run of such players that did something none of us did: they got it done and titled under the bright lights.

    Rock Chalk to all of them!!!

  • @jaybate-1.0 I agree on Wiggs and Embiid! Throw in tarik and a young Perry. Can only dream now.

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