KU BIG'S vs BIG 12'S BIG 4

  • Conference play is coming and the Big 12 is rated the #1 conference again. This time, the 4 teams behind KU in the top 25 have a Big Man that is better than any one of our 5.

    KU does have one advantage vs. the BIG 4. DEPTH. Other than depth, not one of our 5 have the talent of ISU, OU, Baylor and West Virginia in the paint. We will have an advantage on the perimeter but we might have to give up 15 fouls inside.

    These are the veterans we’ll be going against.

    RICO GATHERS 31 pts. and 21 rebounds in one game this week.635612032185375830-315625010_DUNK.jpg

  • Ryan Spangler avg. 12.3 pts. - 9.5 rebs.


  • Jameel McKay avg. 13.9 - 11.6 rebs.


  • Devin Williams 17.6 pts. - 9.8 rebs.


  • Winning the conference is a big thing and if we win # 12 it will be against some outstanding Big Men.

  • Good scouting report. I hope the coach reads it!

  • @wissoxfan83 curious-is Shaka even playing Ridley? If he hasn’t slimmed down he’ll make 2 trips if told to haul ass…

  • @globaljaybird The game I watched Ridley was the forgotten man.

  • Coaching plays a huge “X factor” on subjects like this. Yes, there are some talented bigs in our league, but we’ve seen these bigs before so we should have them scouted well and know how to play them.

    In a way, we might have an advantage with an OAD player like Cheick. No way to exactly know what will work against him until they play.

    I say all of that taking for granted that Cheick will develop quickly and become a big factor for us.

    The depth should be a positive factor for us… if we properly USE our depth to our advantage! Typically, we haven’t done that but I hope this year we will.

  • @globaljaybird

    Ridley is second in mpg at 24.4 and scoring at 12.4; Isaiah Taylor leads both categories.with 27.4 mpg and 13.3 ppg. Not forgotten by any means.

  • This is where Diallo’s impact is vital.

    I don’t think any of the 4 is good enough to beat KU by himself.

    Niang is a player that can beat KU because he can shoot the 3 and pass as well as guards. And he always plays up against us.

    3 of the 4 are really just junkyard dogs as you call them. They all thrive off rebounds and missed shots more than anything. Williams has the best low post game of the bunch and he’s another that’s always brought his A game against KU.

    Good thing we have a combination of 6 big guys to throw at these guys.

  • OK, make it five Bigs or six with Karviar Shepard, but I’m not really concerned about winning those two games, although, never take any Conference opponent lightly.

    Cameron Ridley 12.4/ 9.5


  • @wrwlumpy

    Glad you didn’t use the Embiid body slam for Ridley…

  • Karviar Shepard 9/7


  • Although Tech and K-State have good records - (Tech 6-1 with wins against Minnesota and Miss. State and K-State 7-1 with a win over Georgia), neither have a Monster in the middle.

  • @BeddieKU23 Great point about the “junkyard dog” guys. I fully agree. Niang is not a typical big as he does a lot of damage from the perimeter. The other 3 guys are not classic back to the basket studs. We are not talking about Karl Towns or Okafor from last year. I am certainly not saying that they are not great players. They all are. I just think we will be able to contain them with our 6 headed monster. So many fouls to give.

  • @wrwlumpy

    Karviar Shepard was not much of a factor against KU last season. He is a decent big but not one I would worry about. Rico Suave and Goldilocks McKay seem to get up and play well against KU and so does Spanky Spangler. and Williams.

  • Hasn’t Gathers played well against us? (At least one game as I recall)

  • @wrwlumpy Shame on you lump…

  • @JayHawkFanToo I repeat…"The game I watched Ridley was the forgotten man."Not saying he’s not the cat’s meow.

  • image.jpg

    This is better!

  • @wrwlumpy You should be concerned about Texas. KU tends to struggle when they play in Austin. Last season was the first time in 5 games I’ve been to in Austin that KU won and those losses weren’t all to good UT teams.

  • @Hawk8086

    He has indeed. He is playing at All-American level now and he will be a load…

  • First Team All-Big 12 is going to be earned this year and may end up with more than 5 players. Isaiah Taylor, Rico Gathers, Buddy Hield, Ryan Spangler, Georges Niang, Jameel McKay, and Wayne Selden are all going to be strong candidates and at least one (probably a big) is going to get left off the first team this year.


    I was not answering your post specifically, simply mentioning he is second in scoring and minutes played. As far as being the cat’s mew…I wouldn’t know about that. 🙂

  • Composite 5 will play everyone but Gathers to +0/+0, or +2/+5. He could come up -5/-3 on Rico.

    Frank will plus +3 to +5 his man.

    Devonte continuing to take the consistency pill will +0 to +5 all he faces.

    Selden is a HUGE question mark. When focused, he always creates +0 to +7. But his unfocused nights Wayne gets blown completely out of the water, and goes -10/-4 plus a wad of turnovers.

    Perry? His injury is really worrisome. I was hoping he was just in one of his inner world trips vs. Harvard, but while he had a little more edge vs. Holy Cross, he was really at the same level with a leeeeeetle more effort. The guy is crucial to the team, because he has always been the compensating factor for Wayne’s roller coaster game. Since Perry found himself last season, Perry has been the only guy that could get big enough plusses to offset one of Wayne’s intermittent anti-games. Without Perry, Self is just going to have put a saddle on Frank and squeeze him for 21-25 every game. I don’t know how long Frank can do it.

    Thus, without putting too fine a point on it, Composite 5 becomes THE man on this team. Composite 5 is the only guy with enough up side in Bragg and Diallo to go with the finished foundations and low ceilings of Traylor, Lucas and Mick, to expect significantly rising productivity come B12 time. Composite 5 is the only one on the team capable of generating the double doubles night in and night out that a title and ring challenging team has to have. Frank can get you the points, but even Frank can’t rebound in double figures night in and night out. With Perry injured, Composite 5 is DA ONLY MAN that can keep opponents from doubling and trapping Frank into exhaustion.

    So long as Perry is injured (operable?) and playing 3/4 speed (i.e., 4-7 rpg and 12-14 ppg, instead of 20/10), this team has just gone through a paradigm shift. And its a paradigm shift that is going to infuriate board rats living in the parallel universe where KU can average 45-60% percent from trey for a season. What we are looking at…drum roll please…is a down the middle team. OMG! OMG! OMG! I said it.

    We are looking at a team like Sherron (=Frank) and Cole (=Composite 5) and kicks to the wings. instead of Brady and Tyrel and whomever, we are talking Devonte, Brannen and Svi as the kick outs.

    Hubba, hubba, hubba, here comes the passing offense again.

    OMG! OMG!! OMG!!!

    Down the middle basketball!

    The dreams of 4 out 1 in and the quick trigger offense could be stillborn, atomizing like paradise lost in Milton.

    When the Blue Meanies start appearing on the schedule, its going to get very rough and they aren’t going to give KU the running game. They are going to create bogs for KU to grind in.

    "Where have all the fast breaks gone, Long time passing? Where have all the fast breaks gone, Long time ago?

    Where have all the quick treys gone? Gone to reversals one by one Where have all the quick treys gone? Gone inside out And in again…"


    Please, basketball god, let Perry not be operable.

    Let Perry Ellis be healthy again.

    Let Perry Ellis save us from a down the middle grind team, with a bunch of kick outs to BG, Svi and whomever.


    I can’t take a season of fan despair at having quick trigger trey ball dashed from their hopes and dreams.

    Mourning becomes Elektra…NOT ME!!!

    Please Jocasta, not down the middle!!!

    Don’t make me put my eyes out with the broach!!!

    “You’re next ! You’re Next! You’re next!”–Kevin McCarthy, Invasion of the Body Snatchers

  • @jaybate-1.0 I thought Perry looked much bouncier wed. Did you read the Boeheim article? There was a comment about a nike sponsored poker trip.

  • @Crimsonorblue22 said:

    a nike sponsored poker trip

    There is no bottom to down, I guess.

  • @jaybate-1.0 said:

    Thus, without putting too fine a point on it, Composite 5 becomes THE man on this team. Composite 5 is the only guy with enough up side in Bragg and Diallo to go with the finished foundations and low ceilings of Traylor, Lucas and Mick, to expect significantly rising productivity come B12 time

    Coming from you, without personal attacks towards the established three and the “I think he is a spiteful, stupid and stubborn Coach,” comments, I completely agree.

    Rico will see Lucas play most of the minutes while Spangler will see Mick and Diallo more. Diallo and Bragg actually look like the one’s who could stay with McKay. Traylor will get his Big 12 minutes and will be part of the 15 fouls per game that are bound to happen against the unusually talented Bigs in this league.


    Now I know why Self makes the big bucks.

  • Travis Ford escorted out of his son’s game:

    Sporting News

    By Ron Clements @Ron_Clements

    Updated at 12:32 a.m. ET

    Travis Ford was just another parent Thursday night watching his son, Brooks, play a high school basketball game.

    Unfortunately for Ford, he’s recognizable in Stillwater, Okla., as the Oklahoma State basketball coach.

    Ford said something during Stillwater High School’s 63-51 loss to Bartlesville that got the attention of one of the officials. Stillwater radio’s Bill Van Ness said the game was stopped and Ford was escorted from the gym. Van Ness said “a regular parent” probably would have been ignored.

    Brooks Ford scored 12 points off the bench in the loss in Bixby.

    Oklahoma State is 5-3 after consecutive losses to Tulsa and Missouri State. The Cowboys will face Minnesota (5-4) on Saturday at the Sanford Pentagon in Sioux Falls, S.D.

  • @jaybate-1.0 What happened to Perry? How did he get injured? In practice maybe?

  • @RockChalkinTexas Maybe a regular parent would have been ignored…who knows if we weren’t there. But…I almost can’t go to high school games any more as I have to listen to parents yelling and screaming about the officiating. It’s ridiculous. It’s a high school game. The refs are getting paid, what, $50 for the game? I want to tell people that if they know so much more then they should sign up to officiate the games. Without the refs we would have no high school sports…Is that what they want? This really hits a nerve with me.

  • @RockChalkinTexas

    " Unfortunately for Ford, he’s recognizable in Stillwater, Okla., as the Oklahoma State basketball coach.

    If there was any grass growing in that desolate ass place it would only take 2 or 3 blades for Ford, the former misery midget, to completely disappear in it.

  • @Lulufulu Hip injury vs. Chaminade or UCLA.

  • @wrwlumpy Ah, well lets hope it heals, gets better. KU needs Perry and Perry needs to start playing in top form ASAP!

  • @Lulufulu

    Don’t know how it occurred.

    But I am beginning to see a pattern in the lingerie the team wears. Whenever one guys has to wear it for an injury, several guys wear it. Maybe Self thinks it makes it harder to “kill a cripple” as football coaches used to say in their politically incorrect ways, when telling players to attack the players playing injured as weak links.

    The way cheap shotting and XTRem Muscle are enabled in today’s game, I reckon I would want to offer my guys such camouflage, too.

  • @jaybate-1.0 Question - your composite 3 reference confused me in the other thread a bit. Your composite 5 reference, I thought, meant the “5” … meaning the 5 spot. Are you referring to the spot, or the number of players?

    If you are referring to the number of players, are you counting five non-Perry Ellis guys, – Lucas, “______”, Bragg, Mick and Diallo as your composite 5? Or if it’s by position, how do you determine who is playing what position?

  • @wrwlumpy said:

    Pursuing whatever Coach Self decides is in the best interests of the team would be enhanced by a healthy Perry.

    The more weapons coach has, the more dangerous an opponent he can craft his team into being.

    Hence, my prayer to the basketball gods for Perry’s health.

    KU deserves a break on this injury stuff.

    I am reminded of George C. Scott as Patton. From vague recollection…

    Patton: Chaplain, its bad enough we have to fight the Germans. We shouldn’t have to fight this inclement weather, also. I want you to write me a weather prayer.

    Chaplain: General, I’m not sure how that would be viewed by god.

    Patton: Don’t you worry, chaplain. I’m in good with the almighty. Just write me that weather prayer.

    We need a chaplain over the KU Divinity School, or Department of Religious studies, to come down to center court Allen Field House sometime when the place is empty, and pray an INJURY PRAYER. This is not just about saving one’s soul. This is about the Father of All Basketball programs at a decisive historical moment.

    Heavenly father, I beseech thee, give us the health we need to smite thine enemies on the sacred wood that you have given us, so that we might be able to achieve everlasting victories in service to your greater glory. Amen.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    Yes, I really clouded things up there. Sorry about the vagary. I get an auto-👎

    Composite 3 referred to a three man 5 position.

    (Hunter, Carlton, Cheick)

    Composite 5 referred to a five man 5 position.

    (Hunter, Carlton, Cheick, Landen, and “________” aka Jamari. 🙂

    Should have called it something else for sure.

    Composite 5.5

    Composite 5.3

  • @HighEliteMajor & @jaybate-1.0 It’s really easy - You get one of the group to play with the balls of a 6-6 Draymond Green. It’s mind boggling that a guy this short can do what Green is doing against the monsters in the L. If you haven’t seen it this is just amazing. Why can’t Perry live up to just half of this? Here is an excerpt from the USA Today web page.

    "BOSTON – Walking into the locker room after his postgame news conference, Draymond Green knew what he accomplished, recording a rare 5x5 game. That’s at least five points, five rebounds, five assists, five steals and five blocks in a game.

    “Never been part of that club,” he said, smiling that big Draymond Green smile shortly after the Golden State Warriors outlasted the Boston Celtics 124-119 in double overtime Friday as Golden State remained unbeaten at 24-0 and extended the best start to a season in NBA history.

    Green finished with 24 points, 11 rebounds, eight assists, five steals and five blocks in 50 minutes and became just the third player in the past 40 seasons to have at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, five assists, five steals and five blocks, joining Hall of Famer Hakeem Olajuwon and Derrick Coleman.


    Warriors edge Celtics in 2OT to stretch record win streak to 24

    “He does everything for us on the court,” Warriors interim coach Luke Walton said.

    It’s not an exaggeration.

    At 6-6, Green personifies positon-less basket that is so sought-after in today’s NBA. He’s a point guard who can defend centers. A power forward who can shoot threes. A center who can defend point guards. A rebounder. A passer. A scorer.

    “He does all the little things to win but he’s also skilled,” Warriors guard Shaun Livingston said. “How many guys are built like him who can hold up centers and also have a point-guard mentality?”

    Livingston put a fine point on it.

    “It’s a whole other thing when they start talking about looking for the next Draymond Green,” he said. “That just lets you know. You can’t find a guy like that. He is a winner."


  • @globaljaybird

    Thanks for calling our attentions to Green more specifically. I’ve been hearing some about him, but its always good for some one that cares and knows something to call my attention to it.

    It makes sense that a guy like Green would be an unintended consequence of the NBA’s migration to more trey ball shooters and to shorter and more mobile bigs.

    Draymond Greene would not fair well against Wilt Chamberlain, or Kareem Jabbar, would he? Wilt would score a 100 on him, grab 50 rebounds and hold him to no rebounds. Jabbar would score 65 and would come out +20 on rebounds. Those kinds of numbers would off set all the net benefits of the versatility Greene brings.

    But in a three point era where there aren’t many super centers, and the structural statistical advantage of three point shooting is finally being recognized, and height variation is lessening, a guy like Greene can do in the NBA, what Brandon Rush did for KU in D1: EVERYTHING.

    In essence, the NBA is becoming more like D1 in some physical respects, as D1 is migrating to be more like the NBA. Convergence, baby, its fantastic!!!

    P.S.: One more thing–Green suggests that Nike Tom Izzo is not getting by without talent. Nike Tom is just like Self–ahead of most on coaches what kind of talent is becoming most important to hanging Ws.

  • This Big has obviously gotten bigger and now is walking with the boot off. He could have been our C-1 this year.


  • @globaljaybird

    Could Rico Gathers become Draymond on steroids?

    Probably Scottie won’t seize the moment.

    But Rico seems to me to be a guy that has the athleticism to be taught to put the ball on the deck more and to pass more.

    Where I am headed with this is not so much about Gathers specifically, as about the potential future of the Point Center.

    As NBA bigs get smaller, just as Draymond begins to be a jack of all trades, there becomes the possibility of every position becoming much more widely scoped.

    Everyone said that Danny could have played point guard about as well as Magic; that he had an even better touch Magic.

    Magic was essentially the proto type of the point center.

    Danny could have been the next one.

    I suspect if we go back we could find some more that had the athleticism and abilities to become a point center.

    Wilt absolutely could have become a point center. He would never have bulked up to 300. He would have played at about 260. He proved one the course of his career he could learn to do almost anything except FTs. Bad FT shooting might have kept him from being the Point Center, but I suspect he would have found a way around it if that were the only way to be the greatest player in the alternative age of the point center.

    The game then was not ripe for it. The 7 footer was too important inside, based on the way the game was called in those days.


    Draymond may just be the beginning, not the outlier.

    My father always said that Jud could have used Magic more as a point center than a tall point guard, but that Jud and most people weren’t flexible enough thinkers to realize the potential of a point center. He swore the game would evolve to the point center one day. He said it would be a lot like Hartman’s use of Walt Frazier at SIU. He said Danny could have changed the game and been that guy for Hartman, but that LB, as great of a coach as he was, was just not secure and stable enough career wise to do anything but try to win a ring with Danny the surest way possible.

    Maybe the unintended consequence of the spread of trey balling as primary offense, will be come the point center my dad forecasted.

    The idea of the point center is for the offense to start out revolving around a guy out front capable of doing what a point guard can do, but combined with what a center putting it on the deck could do. Its not just running an offense with a long point guard.

    Centers are hubs.

    McClendon’s four corner offense, that Dean adapted from just a stall, into both a stall AND a scoring offense, makes the concept clear.

    In the four corner, the point guard becomes a short center that can put it on the deck and keep it on the deck and stay the hub of action, where ever he moves on the floor.

    Using point guards in this role was the only feasible way in Dean’s time. But the best big defensive guard (think Don Chaney) could always conceptually at least stifle the best short point guard (think Phil Ford) in the four corners.

    My father argued correctly that the best point center would always hold matchup advantage with the opponent’s best defender, be he center, forward, or guard.

    My father could not foresee big men getting shorter, so he was always envisioning the next Wilt Chamberlain that was coached from the cribbed to be such a point center.

    But reality has a way of morphing around unexpectedly and delivering us to what we were anticipating, only by a different context enabling a slightly different kind of actor than expected.

    The rules and dynamics shaping the game have changed to create a context where bigs are getting smaller.

    The smaller the bigs get, the more feasible it is to find a point center that can do all the necessary things. Its just a numbers game on a normal distribution.

    A capable point center is increasingly probable and that rising probability increases the feasibility of building such a team. What we may be seeing in Golden State is not so much the evolution of a three point shooting team, but the rise of the point forward in the NBA.

    And that point forward may be a pointer toward the point center, once the NBA gets comfortable with the changes created by the point forward.

    I keep telling everyone: Magister Ludi would have loved this game.

  • @wrwlumpy do I wish!

  • JoJo is taking this recovery year seriously. He’s making almost $5,000,000 a year and hasn’t played a minute since he left KU. If he can play at all, he knows he can be making 10 million x 5 years if he gets a second contract. From the looks of his body, it looks like he might like the future $.

  • @wrwlumpy image.jpg

    At first I didn’t recognize TRob, shocking for me! Look at the size difference. I’d like to know what Embiid is thinking here. I can’t imagine the pain both these 2 have gone thru, and at a very young age. Hopefully they have somebody looking out for their best interests.

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