Statistical Nightmare!

  • Here are the stats from the game.


    The first thing I’m drawn to is rebounds. We lost that battle by 7. I know we are missing Cheick… but MSU was undermanned in the post, too, perhaps more than us. This was not a big opponent.

    We’ve all been blasting Jamari and Landen (and they can use some pushing from fans), however, the deficiency in rebounds does not come from the performances of these two. In fact, these two led us in rebounds, and without even playing a half of basketball! It is necessary to look at PT and rebounds together to calculate how effective a player was. So who was soft on rebounds? Wayne was extremely soft. Carlton had zero rebounds. Put Svi and Brannen’s PT together and it is more than a half of basketball and produced only 1 rebound (together). Perry should also be pulling in more boards, though we put a lot of pressure on him to score.

    The next thing I looked for was an outlier. What is glaring in these numbers? Devonte’s performance sticks out most to me. 38-minutes of very limited production. He did manage to lead the team with 4 assists. But this wasn’t near the effort we should expect out of him. If he can’t produce more, we should consider adding size and outside shooting with BG or Svi.

    Another area that really sticks out… and this is the nightmare part… we only had 5 TOs and we lost this game! We all know to expect a lot more TOs in a game, at least twice that many. We took care of the ball that well and we lost. And… the fact that we could take care of the ball that well doesn’t exactly infer anything good about MSU’s defense. It all seems to speak to us “playing not to lose” instead of “playing to win.” We were NOT aggressive at all on offense! We didn’t attack the basket. We didn’t attack the defense. We had our guys standing around on their spots where passes could safely be made, even though it wasn’t advancing an attack on the goal. I would rather have had 14 TOs and had our guys attacking on offense.

    Concerning assists… we were outperformed by +8 by MSU. That doesn’t happen often. We usually have a very high number of assists because we have always pushed “team ball” and “structure” on offense. To score 73 points on only 12 assists says plenty. It spells D I S F U N C T I O N A L / O F F E N S E ! 12 assists? Frank and Devonte together should far eclipse that number every single game!

    Other outliers… how about our FG% and 3pt FG%? We can soon become the “fool’s gold” team of America… If we are going to only shoot 20% from trey, we might as well fold up “trey shop” and furgetaboutit! Press all of our guys to attack the basket and use screens… all 5 guys inside the trey line. We might as well forget it. It is fool’s gold if we don’t run offense for it. Let’s just stop shooting them all together. This is #$&% ridiculous! To have some of the best perimeter shooters in the country and we don’t run offense for them. WHY?! WHY?! WHY?!

    I bet we would win a lot more games ONLY shooting 3s than what we are doing now! And it just so happens that I’m not the only one that thinks this way… the real pros have realized this and are trending more 3s every year. Read this: Chasing 1,000: The NBA’s 3-Point Revolution Has Only Just Begun

  • @drgnslayr to add to your point they had 8 blocks to our 1.

    Out of those 8 I’m pretty sure Perry had 6 of them on him trying to force the ball and never looking to pass it off the block even with three guys around him. When I played we called that the black hole. The ball goes in, never comes back out.

    The other two blocks came on FM and DG driving in amongst the trees and again never looking to pass out and forcing shots.

    That also contributed to our low number of assist.

  • @JRyman

    Thanks for reminding me of that!

    I saw that number and right away it made me panic about playing Kentucky in AFH.

    Are they going to humiliate us again? This time, on our home court?

    If MSU (with their lineup) is able to block us 8 times, just imagine what Kentucky will do to us? Let’s see… Marcus Lee… 18 blocks…

  • @drgnslayr I really want to complain about the FT% KU shot 80% that’s not terrible by any means. They just missed late and the front ends of those pesky one and ones.

    Then again MSU shot 87% so that stings.

  • @JRyman

    Well… you know (as well as I) that FT% is going to be crucial for us this year! We are going to get to the line a bunch.

    Sometimes they just don’t fall. There are plenty of great NBA stars that have choked on late game free throws.

    My biggest concern on the line is Wayne Selden. He tends to freak out on the line. If he starts producing like he is capable of producing, he will be at the stripe a bunch. I’m just not sure he can be consistent at the line.

  • @drgnslayr I was going to post my own topic but yours says it much more eloquently. I watched the first half of the game and had to go to sleep. When I woke the next morning and looked at the box score I said’ WTF!?" How could we have lost that game? I have a few more questions to add to that one and to yours.

    Why did Mickelson only play 3 freekin minutes!? He is our best rebounder and rim protector by far, not even close, aside from Diallo. And, Mick can actually get things to happen on offense, coughlucascough!

    Why is Coach Self NOT playing him when he proved this in Korea??

    Where did Selden go? We saw him put the team on his shoulders and will us to win in Korea. They won the GOLD! 8-0! WTF Wayne!?!?

    Where did our teams toughness and killer instinct go? Again I point to the WUGs.

    Had they brought half of the effort and will it took to not lose one game in Korea, they would have blown out MSU! Not even close!

    Where is the disconnect here? Why isnt Coach letting them play like they did last summer?
    Why do they seem to not be able to play with that same strength and toughness?

  • @Lulufulu

    For one… I think the WUG was kind of a false panacea. I think American D1 ball is a lot more competitive than WUG was. Turns out, we have a long ways to go to match that dominance in D1.

    I really don’t have a clue why Hunter didn’t get more minutes. Kind of makes me think Hunter will be placed in the “deep freeze” this season… his final season playing college basketball. That should be considered a crime!

    “Where did Selden go?”

    First… WUG created a kind of delusion for us fans. I know I am guilty. We want (so badly) for our guys to raise to another level. So when we saw them do it in Korea we applied wishful thinking to the point of making it an expectation for how our upcoming season would go.

    Gosh… we lose a tough game to MSU in the early season and some people feel like they want to fold tent? I understand everyone’s frustrations… I was ready to crawl out of my skin last night! But the real season is yet to be played.

    I say that but I also am right there with many in here that get that feeling like we are “the same ol’ team” from last year. Unable to close and capable of going completely soft. I feel that, too… kind of hard not to feel it!

    But I’m still holding on to hope. I am still hoping we get Cheick for at least the second semester. And I am hopeful these guys will get pushed harder… enough to where they start reaching some of their potential.

    I praise Perry Ellis. I know he isn’t the Type A, “beat on his chest” kinda guy. But he obviously worked his a$s off this past summer. He lost more body fat and got stronger. It is noticeable and he plays faster. To make the kinds of improvements that stick out in just 4 to 6 months it takes a ridiculous amount of effort. Perry is a workaholic!

  • I"m not a basketball guru at all, but MSU’s FG% rose as the game went on. They were brick city until the comeback. I don’t know if our defense was to blame or was it just dadgumit, they got hot? Anyways, we were close, just not good enough in a lot of aspects of the game.

  • @wissoxfan83

    I think they tweaked their game. After their cold start, they made sure Valentine was a big part of every possession. We never found a way to stop him, and he continually built more confidence as the game went on because of that.

    I think MSU started this game, as a team, with low confidence. As the game went on and we weren’t pulling away, they (as a team) started to feel like they could play with us. Eventually, they thought even more… that they could beat us.

    Izzo played a smart game. He went into “mini chip mode” before this game as he talked down his team. Basically admitting they were big underdogs.

    And then the game started and he let them sputter for a while before he went into turbo mode and pushed these guys to step up.

    Izzo must be one of the best coaches in the country at getting his guys motivated. That is the difference in March. So while Kansas teams are freaking out about the bright lights, Izzo’s boys are stepping up and taking charge!

    Izzo is one helluva coach.

  • @drgnslayr Why do you and so many others assume Hunter Mickelson is our best rebounder? There’s nothing out there that supports or backs that up. When you look at the actual numbers, Landen Lucas is KU’s best rebounder and there is no disputing that. Here’s each of those two stats.



    Landen is superior rebounder by any measure you want to use. Hunter had 39 rebounds in 138 minutes in Korea while Lucas had 44 rebounds in 112 minutes. Last year, Hunter had 34 rebounds all season in about the same number of minutes he had in Korea while Lucas had 139 rebounds in a little under 500 minutes last season. Landen was KU’s second best rebounder last season and appears on his way to being KU’s best this year until Diallo gets cleared (hopefully).

    Landen isn’t very good at anything else, but he’s at least a competent rebounder.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10 You are correct that Lucas is out best rebounder on a per minutes basis - and was just behind Cliff last year. But his rebounding advantage over Mickelson is slight. The big difference between the two is rim protection. Hunter has 1 more block than Landon last year in about 1/4 the minutes! Small sample set, but in 2 games this year, we have 5 total blocks as a team (pathetic itself), and Hunter has 3 of them (Svi the other 2). If Mickelson were playing regularly, I expect he would also have an impact in altering shots, much as Withey did. We simply have NO interior defensive presence now. Opposing guards, wings and bigs attack the paint and rim with impunity.

  • @DCHawker

    Great point about Hunter. His rim protection is really needed. I’d live with his okay rebounding if he brought more on defense and offensive efficiency which he fully can. Self doesn’t trust him to do it though otherwise he’d be out there.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10

    I don’t assume Hunter is a better rebounder than Landen. I do think he is a better defender, very capable of blocking shots.

    No… I’ve always said that Landen is our ONLY post player that plays fundamentally sound ball in the paint. He is the ONLY player we have that knows how to seal off for rebounds. He is CLEARLY our best rebounder.

    I actually defended both Landen and Jamari above -

    "We’ve all been blasting Jamari and Landen (and they can use some pushing from fans), however, the deficiency in rebounds does not come from the performances of these two. In fact, these two led us in rebounds, and without even playing a half of basketball! "

    These guys have become an easy target for a few specific plays. Landen… he missed something like 4 bunnies. There is the difference in the game. He is old enough and big enough (compared to MSU bigs)… he should have been stuffing the basketball. That is my main criticism of Landen’s game. But to be real… if other players wouldn’t have “gone invisible” in this game it wouldn’t have fallen back on Landen’s shoulders… or Jamari.

    Hunter didn’t get a chance to put up stats in this game… not with his 3 minutes of play.

    I have to side with others on here that he could use more minutes. He has never been given enough chance to produce. And it should all be about competition, even within the team. Maybe reducing some player’s minutes will force them to step up. There is just way too much complacency on this team.

  • @DCHawker Did I say Landen was a better defender than Hunter? All I said was better rebounder.

    @drgnslayr You actually did say Hunter is our best rebounder so if that’s not assuming something, then I don’t what is. Even at Arkansas where he was a starter and playing more minutes, Hunter was still a pretty poor rebounder.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10

    Where did I say Hunter was our best rebounder? If I did say that, I was wrong. I don’t think I did. It doesn’t mean he couldn’t become our best rebounder. If he learned to seal off better, he could be our best rebounder. He has the best timing between him and Landen and Jamari. That is the biggest reason why he is our best shot blocker.

  • @drgnslayr My mistake on that one, it was @Lulufulu that said Mickelson was by far our best rebounder responding to something you said. That’s what happens when you post when you start feelinf tired and need to go to bed.

    I honestly think the reason why Self plays Lucas and Traylor more is because Lucas is our best rebounder and Traylor is best offensive player. Hunter is probably the best overall player of the 3, but he’s not specifically the best at anything so Self doesn’t see as much value in Mickelson despite all the evidence from Korea that Mickelson compliments Ellis much better that Traylor or Lucas does.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10 Yes, it was my opinion that Mick was our best rebounder simply because he is a better all around player than Lucas and Traylor. I still think he should be getting more minutes. He can help us as evidenced by what we saw in July! I dont understand why Coach has put him on the far side of the bench again! I literally cant understand his reasons for that.

  • @Lulufulu I’m not disagreeing about Mickelson being the better overall player, but Landen Lucas is currently KU’s best rebounder. I think Self believes that because Mickelson isn’t specifically the best in any one area, that he’s not helpful for KU. It could also be because Mickelson is a transfer and Self is being loyal to players he and his staff brought in instead of playing who makes KU the best team.

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