Who will be the first coach to devise an offense to use as much of the 30 second clock as possible before shooting?

  • Gotta be Bill Self!

  • @jaybate-1.0 Have you seen a Bo Ryan team play before JB?

    As for your signature, I’ve never disagreed that shoe companies try to sway the elite HS recruits to certain schools to try and sign them to endorsement deals when they enter the NBA. Companies will always try to sway prodigies in a particular field to entice them to endorse or work for a certain company.

    I just don’t buy this particular theory playing any role in who Bill Self chose to replace Brannen Greene and Devonte Graham with.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10

    Let me think.


    Yes, I, I, I have seen the Badgers play now that you mention it. I saw them when I went to grad school there and I try to catch them a few times each season to keep up…

    (jaybate 1.0 tees it up for @Texashawk 10.)

    Why do you ask? Does this have more to do with epistemic shaving?

  • @jaybate-1.0 Syracuse! Oh wait, nevermind.

  • @jaybate-1.0 But seriously, out of the Big 12 schools. Jury’s out on the new Iowa St coach. What does he like to run for offense anyways? If I had to pick one school I would pick Texas Tech because in order for them to have a prayer at winning, they’ll need to keep the tempo slow, possessions and scoring low, focus on defense. Kstate could be down there too.
    I wouldnt pick KU. Coach Self will let his guys run more this year. Im betting on it. I mean, normally he sticks pretty close to the Div 1 median for pace/tempo. Not too fast, not too slow. I think being able to coach this summer with a much shorter clock will help him feel comfortable letting his guys go out there and run more, create more. They’ll have to if they really want a shot at winning a medal.

    I feel really very good at KU’s chances this coming season. We have experience and we have talent and we have a deep bench. All important parts of the final four hopes. KU, I think, will be able to break 30 wins this season and be loads better on offense, having gotten the chance to play in the WUG’s the 30 second shot clock will seem like an eternity while to everyone else it will seem too fast at first. KU is gonna be real good this season, I can feel it.
    Last nights game was a small sample size, I know, but they beat a pretty good Canada team and KU is only gonna improve from here.


  • @Lulufulu

    So hope u r right.

    And beating the Canadians was a great accomplishment!!!

    Svi at 3 and Diallo/Lucas/Traylor at 5 are the links that will make or break this chain of Jayhawks come October 15.

    Though I have been lowering expectations for our team to board rats, I am very excited about the upcoming season. Last season these returning players put on one of the guttiest performances of any KU TEAM ever. They marched on Mytkyina and though they fell short vs. WSU, it was the kind of loss that will make them very hungry and even tougher this season. Frank Mason is a terrific PG. Perry is ready to become a dominant stretch 4, not just a good one. Selden was sufficiently humiliated last year that he will return as a hard man. Svi can be extraordinary, but is still very young. I am expecting a nonlinear leap from Lucas. He was coming on end of last season. Being bigger and stronger will take him to the tipping point that will allow Self to run some offense through Landen.

    But it is still unclear if anyone can replace the perimeter defense and swagger of Oubre; this will be crucial.

    I do not expect either Greene, because of injury, or Bragg and Vick because of youth, to be factors.

    Where Traylor plays will tell a lot about the abilities and reliabilities of others. Traylor could even wind up at 3, which has always been his natural position, but for his lack of a stroke. It really depends on Svi and what position Self wants Perry to dominate from. Self loves the Stretch 4, so if Svi can be a force at 3, then Ellis at 4 and Traylor down the chart at 4/5. But Svi is so young he might blow up again. Then Ellis might swing 3/4 and so might Traylor behind him to keep Diallo and Bragg from having to play any 3.

  • @jaybate-1.0

    So you aren’t in on the theory that Bill Self 1.0 will upgrade into Roy Williams 2.0?

    Imagine Self running Roy’s high-octane offense but keeping his own focus on Billy Boy’s M2M defense?

    I can hear the recruiting lines already…

    “Yeah, young man, if you go to UNC you will learn Roy’s offense and it will prepare you for the NBA. Or you could go to Kansas and learn Bill’s offense AND defense and it will prepare you for the NBA Playoffs!”

  • @jaybate-1.0 Im sure Im not alone when I say I wish Svi and Diallo could play for KU this summer. I agree with you that we need those guys at peak to make a good run next season.
    I dont know how Coach will make it happen but I think he will. Since he has been at KU he has never lost in the first round of the NCAA’s more than 2 times in a row.

  • @Lulufulu

    Prohm runs high tempo at Murray St. I would assume the same continues in Cyclone land.

    I see TCU, Tech & K-St being team that will be deliberate in their offense.

    Will be interesting to see Virginia adjust to the rules as Bennett is notorious for running the clock down.

  • @jaybate-1.0

    Diallo + Bragg + Vick > Alexander + Oubre

    Plus the rest of the team has an extra year of experience.

  • @JayHawkFanToo Guard play & wing play we may be damn good with what we have & will be. But if Diallo isn’t the 2nd coming of a very good rim protector & a heavy offensive threat in his FIRST year, like you yourself said yesterday, Lucas & Hunter & Traylor are just what they are & we’ve no one to bang with the big bad bodies like we’ll see from MSU & many, many others, so our fate may be sealed the first or 2nd weekend of the dance just like last year. I’ve been patiently wating on the metamorphosis from LL but his foot speed & post moves seem as deliberate & predictable as what we saw last year when we were under the impression he was walking wounded. I love the kid, but he simply doesn’t look like the next big thing to my old eyes. Doctor them up if you can…JMO

  • @drgnslayr

    What you say makes XTReme Sense, but after a little experimentation, the inside 3 off the Bo Ryan/Bad Ball Drive will finally rule the last two months of the season.

    And down the stretch, pass it 20 and drive it with ten to go will rule the day in half court.

    The only difference will be a slight increase in transition attempts.

    30 second Shot clock or 35, the lower the possessions the more each inside 3 is worth and the more imperative it is to get the opponent fouled up for the stretch run.

    Until they reward more points per basket for shooting sooner, the logic of Iba slow down never dies; that is why Phog hated Iba Ball so much and wanted it outlawed.

    The other way to kill Iba Ball would be to make the trey ball worth 4 or 5; that would both out weigh the short 3 and the incentive of playing to foul up the other team.

    Iba Ball is like crab grass otherwise.

    No amount of round up can kill it all.

  • In the Big 12, I say K-State because they are going to be so talent starved, but they could still be okay if they can ugly the game up.

    Nationally, I would guess most of the schools in the Ivy League will probably go that direction and a lot of mid majors will as well. In the big conferences, I could see Wisconsin using something like that with Kaminsky and Dekker gone, although they still have some firepower. Bottom tier teams in the power 5 may toy around with it to stay competitive.

  • @jaybate-1.0

    I think it is well known that guards typically can get shots off much quicker than post players. I think this is part of why so many NBA plays end up with a perimeter shot (of course, the extra point is a big part, too).

    Most post players have to catch the ball and set, then run some fakes, have some movement, all before getting off their shot. Not an opportunity for a catch-and-shoot.

    The goal is never to get the shot off just before the shot clock expires. There should be around 3 or 4 seconds left in case the shot gets blocked or doesn’t hit the rim so a rebound/shot is still possible.

    Any NBA guard worth his weight in ShoeCo stock (thought you might like that one) can get his shot at any place and any time… regardless who is glued to him. I in know way put our Frank and Devonte in that league… but there aren’t many D1 players that can make that claim either. But our guys are capable of creating for themselves with just a few ticks on the clock left. We are far ahead of most D1 teams. At least… that is where my hope is!

  • @JayHawkFanToo

    I really hope you are proven right on that formula.

    But I don’t see it yet.

    Diallo: I doubt Diallo can be as productive per minute offensively as The Big Red Dog and I doubt he will play more minutes than the Big Red Dog did, since he is sharing the 5 with Lucas and Traylor, and he hasn’t got a money shot. Also, remember that Diallo never shut down an OAD footer like Okafor in high school the way Alexander did. It is increasingly logical to guess that Alexander would have played a lot more last season based on his per minute numbers, if he hadn’t had the loan hanging over his head the whole season. I will go to my death bed suspecting that Self and KU had plausible deniability about the loan and budgeted playing time all season, according to the risk factor related to him eventually getting into the pickle he did. So: for all of the above factors, I can’t imagine Diallo will be better than Alexander–just maybe that he will play more minutes and net proportionally more.

    Bragg is caught behind Ellis, unless Self will unstick and move Ellis to 3, where he should’ve been the previous 3 seasons, as I have said to mostly deaf ears. But there is no indication that that is even being considered. Self apparently believes the stretch 4 is the hardest to defend weapon in D1 basketball. He apparently believes Thomas Robinson was barely a Stretch 4 and took Self to the Finals without any Mickey Ds. Self apparently has Stretch 4 Addiction and since he is a smart cookie, Self may well be justified in indulging the addiction…but it does seem an addiction. He apparently saw Perry average 20 ppg for a few weeks before the injury last season, and the rush of that speed ball apparently made him feel The Designer is the uncut junk that he has been wanting to free base with since TRob left. So: Bragg is a back up and looking at 10-15 ppg unless Lucas/Traylor/Diallo form a catastrophic committee failure. Then Self might move Ellis to a Stretch 5; i.e., Self might follow Bo Ryan’s lead last season with Frank Kaminsky and see if a more athletic Stretch 5 Lite could work, while Bragg gets to be a skinny, green stretch 4 that steps waaaaaaay out to avoid the blue meanies, so that Perry can just create all season with an open middle. Please don’t tell @HighEliteMajor I hinted at this, because he will immediately see right through what I am anticipating and despair at what will amount to an intensification of BAD BALL (call it XTReme BAD BALL) and HEM might leave his beautiful wife a widow). Regardless, the strong likelihood Ellis stays at 4, and Bragg picks up spare minutes here and there and by the end of the season in a best case scenario is picking up 10 from Perry and 10 from the committee at the 5 with someone faltering from injury, or just lack of talent.

    Vick? I know every one is on Lysergic Acid DiVicklamide right now, but really, this promising young man reclassified from junior to senior in high school to even get here. I see why everyone is jazzed about him being very good down stream, and maybe that future draft choice (2 years in the future) that Self hinted at hoping to sign before we knew Vick was that guy, could fill a gap the size of Devonte Graham’s last season, but the probability seems pretty slim. At least Devonte was a real freshman, not a high school senior reclassed a freshman. Right now LaGeraldo has the body of a senior in high school at best and a fine touch. That means that even if Hudy can increase his bounce per ounce and Self can raise his coefficient of hardness by January, the neural nets upstairs are comparable to those of EJ and Travis their senior years of high school; i.e., gulp, that’s lots of connections not yet grown together–maybe 2-3 years from being grown together.

    So that’s the left side of the greater than inequality and its not seeming greater than to me.

    Cliff I have already alluded to, so let’s let that variable go gently into that good night.

    IMHO, Oubre is a SERIOUS challenge to replace.

    Oubre was an athletic freak at the 3. 6-7 3s that can run, jump, shoot, rebound, and guard well with 7 foot wing spans as freshmen and be drafted in the lottery are kind of an every game MUA at the 3 by definition. Only Svi could even approach that and only IF everything went perfectly for him. I don’t think board rats have ever adequately appreciated Oubre. Oubre wasn’t as good as Wigs, but that is hardly a knock on Kelly. No one recently except Michael Kidd-Gilchrist has been better than Wigs was Wig’s one season of coasting 2/3s speed 75% of the time. Wigs was XTReme Right Tail athletic freakdom. Kelly? Well, Kelly was near XTReme Right Tail athletic freakdom, but no one really gave him the credit for it, because his APPARENT (at least as I hypothesize it) knee injury was apparently never admitted to for purposes of draft wellness, if you know what I mean. Oubre came in and got hurt and that’s why he sat out early, according to my hypothesis. It apparently had nothing to do with the bogus light not going on initially, or him being a selfish high schooler. Hypothesis: that was all the legend created to cover the early knee injury. Once the knee injury seemed to heal some, Oubre came roaring out of the starting gate. But hypothetically speaking, no one wanted to admit the injury, because it was going to raise doubts down stream in the draft. Then he apparently re-tweaked the hypothesized injury, and he began to struggle. But even Kelly struggling (and as a freshman no less) was crucial to giving Frank and Perry room to work. Kelly appeared to be who teams were really afraid of and geared to stop much of the season. And Self used him for a decoy as long as he could down the stretch, until the big gauze ball on Oubre’s knee just kept growing from a knee wrap, to a pad, to a quilt, to a ball of cotton candy over the course of the second half of the season, and every opposing team knew all you had to do was kick him in the knee a few times and he had to begin favoring it and protecting it from further damage. But even after the rather dismal ending to Kelly’s season, there was apparently no incentive to admitting to, or talking about the injury, because the draft still loomed. It will be very interesting to see where Kelly winds up being drafted. On a talent basis, he is off the charts, just not as far off the charts as Wigs. But that knee…hmmm. It will depend on how he worked out on it, I suppose. The NBA likes to draft ceilings, not foundations. He’s got a nice foundation. And he’s got a cathedral ceiling. But the knee…it will be interesting to see what the GMs decide.

    So: when I weight the variables on your formula, which is a fine formulation of the critical essence of last year versus this, except for your leaving Svi out, I have to reverse the direction of the greater than sign to less than.

    But damn, given all our experience and moxie at other positions, wouldn’t it be sweet if your direction of the inequality proves the correct one!!!

    Rock Chalk!

  • @jaybate-1.0

    I am not sure where the story that Diallo can’t score came from. At the McDonald’s All America game he led all scorers and was named the MVP. At the Jordan Classic he was also the MVP and led the East with 26 point and 11 rebounds playing against competition that included the best high school players in the country.

    IMHO, Alexander, and based on the hype, had a below average and cut-short season and even an average season by Diallo will be better than Alexander’s. BTW, Diallo is not a Center and he plays PF, so I will guess that Coach Self will play Ellis and Diallo as PFs (with Ellis getting some time at the SF) and go with the two PF setup that is now prevalent in the NBA…since there are not that many true centers left.

  • @jaybate-1.0 coach Self loves heart and hustle, if diallo stays out of foul trouble, he will do a lot of things that will help our team. It will earn him time too. This isn’t always measured in the stats.

  • @JayHawkFanToo said:

    I am not sure where the story that Diallo can’t score came from

    It didn’t come from me.

    I don’t make the news.

    I just reflect on it.

    Wouldn’t it be great if 6-9 Diallo had a back to the basket scoring game on a par with Shady?

    It would mean he could be a difference maker 4 in college and a journeyman 4 in the pros.

    Shady took a few years to develop though.

    I would be very, very, VERY happy, if Diallo turned out to be as good as Shady.

    That seems plausible to me, based on what you are telling me about Diallo’s scoring. Diallo ought to be able to develop about the same rate as Shady. That would be awesome.

    I just hope they don’t draft Diallo before he develops to a point where he can play the way Shady did in that Finals game against Memphis’ bunch of ringers.

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