Recruiting Prediction: Nike Leans Sign with Nike Schools, adidas Leans Sign with adidas Schools, Sweetened Down Stream Agent Deals Tip Balance on One or Two
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Gosh… where are all those recruits who were dying to play WUG ball this summer? Didn’t they see the lovely travel brochures from Korea?
I’d like to know how many of our current players have an Adidas background? Anyone know?
I have to say that I’m having a hard time wrapping my mind around the struggle to land a big man on a team pretty stocked with good experienced players with an excellent coach that has sent a lot of players to the NBA.
I think @HighEliteMajor nailed it with us passing over 4-star players trying to land OADs. We’ve already seen what a crap shoot these guys can be.
Now is the time we need to land a few solid 4-yr players because in two years we will graduate: Frank, Wayne, Brannen, Landen, and will lose let’s say 2 more OADs that year. If we don’t build a base of more returning players we will be right back how we were 3 years ago losing our top 6 players. We are just now getting out from under that and can finally mount a team this coming year that isn’t one of the very youngest teams in college basketball. And who knows if Devonte will be a 4-yr player the rate he is improving.
It seems that we have thrown all logical basketball structure out the window just to recruit the glamorous OADs. We’ll never be squat without having a solid base of returning players.
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A lot of good points as always…
I see we offered 2016 Mitch Lightfoot 6’7 kid from AZ. Has family in Kansas. May grow some more and has been labeled to have a great “motor”. Rivals has him at 140 right now, ESPN hasn’t expanded class yet, 247 has him 163 not updated fully as well. Was committed to New Mexico before re-opening. Some places have said he’s a done deal to KU.
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Fuel for the fire http://espn.go.com/blog/ncbrecruiting/on-the-trail/insider/post?id=13713
The second weekend of the evaluation period is upon us, and that means Week 2 of “sneaker season” is here. There is an added element of intrigue in this second session though as the three major shoe companies will be operating their collective events all within 175 miles of one another. Here is a look at some of the other storylines to watch:
Nike EYBL (Lexington, Ky.)
Location, location, location: Nike’s prestigious league sets up shop in the backyard of its most prestigious college basketball program. Is it a recruiting advantage for John Calipari and Kentucky to have so many guys in town? It certainly doesn’t hurt.
Coming at No. 1: ESPN 60 Jayson Tatum (No. 1) defended his territory two weeks ago with four strong performances to open the EYBL season. The task only gets tougher this weekend as he and his St. Louis Eagles squad take on MOKAN Elite and ESPN 25 small forward Michael Porter (No. 2) on Friday. Then they face Alabama Challenge and ESPN 25 small forward John Petty (No. 23) and Alabama Challenge early Saturday afternoon before the major showdown happens with Wings Elite and ESPN 60 shooting guard Malik Monk (No. 4).
Big league: When it comes to size, EYBL has a leg up on the competition as it has far more five-star big men than either of its competitors. This weekend will feature a battle of their best bigs as ESPN 60 power forward Harry Giles (No. 2) leads Team CP3 against the Georgia Stars and triple towers in ESPN 60 Udoka Azubuike (No. 10), Abdulhakim Ado (No. 20) and ESPN 25 Wendell Carter (No. 10).
Adidas Uprising Gauntlet (Indianapolis, Ind.)
Finale or bust: Though Nike and Under Armour utilize a regular-season model, Adidas took a different route with one big bracket spanning the course of both live weekends. The goal for all 56 teams in the competition is to advance to the “Elite Eight” and earn a consequent birth in the Gauntlet Finale during the first three days of the July evaluation period in Atlanta. That means there will be a little something extra at stake this weekend.
Decommit buzz: A pair of former Pittsburgh pledges and ESPN 60 products, Mustapha Heron (No. 22) and Maverick Rowan (No. 25), were among the top performers at Week 1 of the Gauntlet. Heron was still committed at the time and should have a big following after last week’s decommitment. Rowan will undoubtedly continue to generate long lines of coaches, partly because he has yet to completely rule out a move up to 2015.
Guard game: If the EYBL is the circuit of big men, Adidas hopes to hang its hat on the guards, and there are plenty of them with ESPN 60 products like Dennis Smith Jr. (No. 4), Kobi-Jordan Simmons (No. 5), Josh Langford (No. 13) and Frank Jackson (No. 30), not to mention wings like Heron, Rowan and Rawle Alkins (No. 27).
Under Armour Association (Louisville, Ky.)
Always close by: When Under Armour moved the UAA Finals to Atlanta last year – on the same dates that Nike was holding the EYBL Finals at the Peach Jam roughly 100 miles away in North Augusta – the intent was clear: To go head-to-head on the biggest stages of grassroots basketball. This weekend, it is doing that once again by heading to nearby Louisville while Nike is just 45 minutes up the road in Lexington.
Can Jackson rise? ESPN 60 small forward Josh Jackson (No. 3) led the UAA in scoring in Week 1 and couldn’t have been much more impressive. Nevertheless, the race for the top spot in the ESPN 60 has been between two horses in recent months (Tatum and Giles). The question for Jackson is whether he can continue to raise the bar in order to be a legitimate contender for that No. 1 ranking.
Youth movement: Under Armour calls itself “the brand of this generation; and the next.” At the UAA, there seems to have a heavy emphasis on the latter. The No. 1 ranked player in the ESPN 25, DeAndre Ayton, is already the signature prospect in the Association. Fellow ESPN 25 products including Jalek Felton (No. 7), Billy Preston (No. 13), P.J. Washington (No. 14) and Trevon Duval (No. 15) are also on board.
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Right on
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@jaybate-1.0 Oubre knee injury? Where, when, what, how? Not sure what you are referring to. There was no discussion that a knee kept him of the court, was there? Additionally, I personally think you way overstate the OAD thing. Nothing has changed. Imagine Kansas last season with a third year rim protector, say the quality of Withey in his junior season here. And then assume had Andrew White. And then assume we didn’t have Cliff or Oubre. We (Kansas in Self’s system) would have been better – we would have been better subtracting OADs. I am very confident of that.
@BeddieKU23 To be honest, I simply cannot imagine any coach looking at what happened last season, and doing the same thing. It is sickening to me to think that he would continue the feed the post stuff as the focus of our offense if we have Ellis, Traylor, and Lucas in primary roles down low … guys who have unequivocally shown the inability to score effectively in that role. But then again, that’s logical. It is equally concerning to think that he’d run the same four out/one in weave as a regular offense.
I think his use of the four out/one in weave signaled an acknowledgment that the feed the post focus failed. I think he used the four out/one in weave because that was all he had at the time. I am hopeful that with a full off season of consideration and time to plan, he’ll come up with a better four out/one in scheme – he need only look to WSU, or ISU, or Gonzaga.
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Great post. Thanks!
Maybe I have been underestimating PetroShoeCo influence?
Now what we need is coverage of the agent and agent runner meetings!!!
Howling!
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That big wad of white fabric on his knee kind of gave it away.
It never made any sense that he sat early and then could suddenly play, because “a light went on.” That is fairy tale theater stuff. And then after going on a tear the gob of white stuff on his knee grew and suddenly other coaches figured out how to stop him. The whole 20 mpg on a shallow stack team for a first rounder never made sense either.
They appear to have fooled folks most of the season. I missed it most of the season.
But c’mon! In retrospect, he appears to have had a knee problem and they apparently concealed it so as not to jeopardize his draft appeal, right?
Or are we supposed to keep believing in this “light going on” mythology in which it goes off and on an off only in random coincidence with styles and sizes of knee lingerie?
Oubre was waaaaaaay too talented and way too good, when he was good for this 20 mpg thing to have just been about the selfish young OAD and lights on and lights off myths IMHO.
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@jaybate-1.0 Self personally told me Bragg is a “stretch-4”, when I asked him how he sees Bragg fitting in.
Think of the matchup problems we’d give if we play Perry at the 3, Bragg (6’9) at the 4, although both are versatile, and then let true length (6’10) man the 5 position by committee (Landon + Hunter).
Hey look, if other potential recruits taller than 6’9 keep seeing Lucas and Mickelson on the roster as potentially “ahead” of them, or even competing for mpg, then we either lose Landon or Hunter (not happening), somehow sell the recruit…or just be ready to PLAY HUNTER + LUCAS. That 10 fouls worth of shot-blocking and rebounds, and garbage buckets. That’s all I expect from Landon, and I expect a face up jumper from Hunter, but he’s got to be stronger hanging on to the rebounds.
Look at it another way: At a mid-major, 2 guys like Landon and Hunter would be getting major mpg, and Self built his rep prior to KU with such guys. And Hunter was top50. Time to put up, or shut up, both are Sr’s.
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Agree with pretty much everything @HighEliteMajor said here. Bragg will play, and we hope he is more outta-the-box ready than Cliff was. Cliff was OK against lesser competition. Cliff would have been a damn stud if he’d had the opportunity to stay at KU til his Jr. season. Think of a Darnell Jackson with more swagger and pop. But he + his mom cancelled that opportunity with their choices…
But main point is: Bragg will play. We need in injection of dynamic play in the post, be it 2 pick & pop guys at the 4 and 5 (Ellis and Bragg), or Ellis and Bragg at the 3 and 4, while 5 is by-committee of LL/Hunter. Something in the post has got to change…and it will.
Don’t forget that we now have a returning core of experienced, toughened guys, some of whom are McDs, while others are high-skill “gems” like Mason and Graham. And Svi is a 5star, who should absolutely explode this season. He will get mpg. As HEM said, we want the ball in his hands, as he showed flashes of dynamic playmaking ability as drive-dish, or drive-score. Everybody talks about that Dekker kid. Watch Svi this coming season (will be better than Dekker, or at least another Dekker)…then watch the NBA take him the season after (he’ll only be a 2AD).
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Bragg has a lot of offensive skills. His offense is an immediate upgrade to the team. Coach will have to lean on him to give effort all the time and get the defensive effort that will be asked of him. I didn’t see Bragg play much defense or committed defense but in the HS ranks that’s always a rare commodity.
Korea should help him tremendously getting early practice and PT in the system. Imagine how much farther along he could be going into fall camp as opposed to last year where your exposure to Self’s ways were in October. He’s going to get them in June. Huge advantage for Bragg having a lasting impact.
I’ll believe it when I see. Logically your are right, but what we have seen on the court was different. Whatever reasons Self had for junking up the entire offensive philosophy is something we will never know unless @ralster finds out for us someway. If he was going to change wouldn’t he have tried to do so during the season? Why does it take the failure of how the season ended to realize maybe I need to change it up, especially if the same players are back again. He’s a stubborn man, he likes M2M defense and H/L offense no matter if he’s got half the talent he’s used to having run it. If you see us running the weave in the exhibition games against Canada, chuck the TV out the window you know all is lost!!!
I think Lucas presents some hope of a low post game. He’s some major lower body improvements away from some good things. Good thing we got the best strength coach. I’m optimistic he’ll continue to improve his hook and leverage down at the 2ft line. Maybe that’s asking a lot but if Self truly still has that development wizard in his corner, Lucas is the next poster child for a step up.
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“he’ll come up with a better four out/one in scheme – he need only look to WSU, or ISU, or Gonzaga.”
I think we could use some coaching help on how to work effective offense on high ball screens. When you mentioned WSU… the first thing that popped in my mind is their reliance on high ball screens to go on the attack. It works and it isn’t rocked science. No need to send your players home with a 600-page playbook that takes them 3 years to learn half of it.
I’ll be interested in watching WSU after Baker and VanVleet are gone. Those guys really know how to make the most out of a small area on the floor that blossoms end to a full-blown assault on the defense. Will Marshall still run the same attack without these guys? Or is it mostly his offensive style that makes mediocre players into stars?
We have never really counted on attacks through the high ball screen. We kind of “show it” just to try to position defenders out high so we have room to feed the post.
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Unrelated but Buddy Hield back for Senior season. Guess who’s hyping Oklahoma already no other than Franny frann.
They lose Thomas their best post player and Booker and there supposedly better. Media is comical
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Good points and sound logic. In my mind it all boils down to old school basketball where upper class men played and the younger players learned and by extension…an experienced and competent junior is better than any OAD. Unfortunate that train left the station and is not coming back and in the long term it will mark the start of the demise of the sport as we know it, and to a large extent we can blame it on the squid, although he is by no means alone.
I long for the days when we could see a player develop and follow his progress over several years and then at the next level; now, by the time we start to see progress…he is gone. When I watch the NBA and I see Hinrich or Pierce or Mario or Collison or the twins play I have memories of all the games I watched them play as Jayhawks; when I watch Wiggins I know he is a Jayhawk but he does not elicit the same emotion as the other players do…in this respect, I pity UK fans, so many players in the NBA and so few they really know.
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OU will be right in the chase. They have a 7’ Junior College player and 2 guards coming and get the bulk of their team back; Hield is the best player in the conference.and makes them a contender. If we don’t get Diallo, OU and ISU will be the favorites to win the Conference next season. ISU is pre-season top 5 (as high as #2) in all the rankings I have seen and OU is top 10 and KU somewhere in between.
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Neither team is better than KU regardless of if we get Diallo or not. If the media is hyping them to be better than they can put the bottle down anytime now.
Iowa St lost 2 Seniors players who were vital to their offense. Didn’t replace either of them. 1 transfer guard is good but doesn’t fill a need. Burton isn’t eligible to mid-season.
Oklahoma lost their starting PF and first guard off the bench. Their freshman guards aren’t heralded so they’ll take time to adjust. Juco bigs often need time to adjust as well to level of physicality just like Freshman bigs. Buford has a better chance with year in system. But they didn’t upgrade either loss.
How are they better?
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I did not say I agreed with it…UT, ISU and OU were picked to finish ahead of KU last season and remember how that turned out? On the other hand, ISU won 2 out of 3 against KU last season…
I was simply reporting what all the pre-season rankings have…and all of them have ISU ahead of KU; maybe you can find one that has KU ranked ahead of ISU? I could not. Now if we get Diallo or a starting quality big then the dynamic change, wouldn’t you agree?
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Defintely would agree, Sorry didn’t mean you were saying but that the Media has done a great job hyping all these teams that are supposed to be leaps and bounds better without actually getting better at their weaknesses. I don’t view KU as a team who will be leaps and bounds better if we don’t get say Diallo. Because that would mean our biggest weakness from last year still translated to next year.
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Even if KU does not pick any other player, it should be at least as good or better than last season. Oubre will be ably replaced by Svi and Green so no drop there and possibly better production. Bragg should be, or I should say hopefully will be, an improvement over Alexander whom I think would have been much improved player in his second or third year but in his first year, IMHO, underperformed and underwhelmed. Plus we get the rest of the team back with one extra year of experience and a summer full of practice and game time experienced against top competition that should hit the ground running next season. No doubt a legitimate to 10 team and maybe a top 5 and, if we get a quality big, a top 3 and national title contender. Just my opinion, of course.
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In my not so humble opinion, the Jayhawks will be as good as Perry’s knee. Unless those hip spurs were a really serious factor, I don’t see Brannen Greene EVER fitting in well to Bill Self Basketball. His motion counterflows…upstream. Selden? Which Wayne will make a show? A dependable nightly show? And can Svi live up to his billing? Seemed like something of a waste, sitting idle after Christmas break last season. Maybe practice-time challenges elevated his game while visits with Hudy and co. sculpted his physique? Time will tell. I sure liked the way he moved the ball before Christmas. Mason and Graham? I’ve no skepticism re those two…so long as Mason’s legs hold up. And from recent photo clips of his work in the weight room, his knees looked strong as iron. Gotta trust that both Lucas and Mickelson take giant steps up the ladder of improvement. At least one of them bound to make significant gain. I still crave the energy of Diallo. Like a pistol in a waistband, he is a certified difference maker.
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@REHawk Brannen tore a labrum I think. No bone spurs. Good points though. I have a very good feeling about Svi this season. Gonna be awesome I think. Also, dont think we can trust Lucas and Mickelson’s improvement. Theyre both 5th year seniors at their respective ceilings. Unless Im wrong about them being seniors. I honestly cant remember right now. We NEED Diallo. And, Diallo needs KU
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I am so glad you were courageous enough to bring up Perry’s knee.
We’ve all been living in denial about that.
Every guy with a knee injury, operated on, scoped, or just left alone, except for Tyshawn Taylor, has seen his effectiveness reduced during Self’s tenure; this is ominous for the one True Kansan in our rotation.
Perry has come such a looooooooong way.
I respect him enormously, because he has grown into a kind of player that it was not at all certain that he could become.
Self could stand there and tell him this is what he had to become.
But Perry is who had to go through the blast furnace of transformation.
A lot of smart guys like him would have transferred and become who he already was.
But Perry Ellis is proof that Self’s idea of “developing” people can work with players of great inner courage and perseverance.
I cannot think of another player–well, maybe Tyshawn–that has been through so much humiliation and then blossomed.
It is truly a metamorphosis for Perry.
One knows just how much of his mind power it required to come out the other side of the blast furnace, because his grades sank to Bs instead of As.
I hope he has achieved enough transformation on wood, so that he can go back to acing all of his classes.
And I pray for his knee.
I hate knees with a passion.
I hate all joints.
I hate anything that steals a young man’s pop!!!
I am praying for you Mr. Kansas.
Repeat after me: Bill Bridges.
Put a picture of Bill Bridges up in your locker.
Bill Bridges is the patron saint of all players with knee injuries great or small.
Bill Bridges was the greatest rebounder pound for pound I ever saw.
Bill Bridges had a heart the size of Bill Russell’s.
I always dreamed of Bridges and Big Russ playing together and in one game never allowing the other team a single rebound.
Perry, you are a quiet man, but you have the kind of heart that Bridges and Big Russ had. You just weren’t born knowing it. But now you do.
Don’t let anything stop you now!!!
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Michelson is a RS-Senior and this is his last season but Lucas will be only a RS-Junior and has one year of eligibility left after the upcoming season.
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@jaybate-1.0 totally off topic. What about Wilt, rebounding skill vs Bridges and Russell?
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IowaState beating KU “2 out of 3 times” is a bit misleading–> let’s let IowaSt fans, and the national media look back on that W/L fact and prognosticate…while Self, us, and Hoiberg know the truth: Self solved IowaState in game 2 (in AFH) when he shockingly ditched his offensive rebound mantra to race the defense back to bother IowaState’s always-struggling half-court offense. Hoiberg had NO countermove. Then, in the BigXII Tourney Champgame: KU blows a 17pt 2nd half lead… That is squarely on KU. I’ve not seen a more Jekyll-Hyde KU team than this last season. That tendency has got to go, and honestly it has to do with team leadership more than anything. I can say that Mason, Graham, and Greene don’t get “butterflies” in their stomach when the other team goes on a run. But our other guys…makes ya wonder…
Maybe I need to add HealthySelden to our warrior list, as he did pull our half-baked butt out of a deep hole against FL, almost single-handedly. And for grins, I will add: when I directly asked Wayne if his knee “was good?”, he said “its good” (no hesitation)…so I asked if it was “100%?” to which he said “100%!”. Kid was walking & moving & working out with Hudy with bounce and great motion. He is a very key piece to next year…and as I have ventured to say repeatedly: a MickeyD who stays 2-4 yrs for Self is almost a 100% odds of being a solid contributor and true star of his team (or one of the stars). He was a glue man, commendably buying into the D-philosophy from Day -60…but it is time for more. It is time for Selden to shine.
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@jaybate-1.0 If that knee gives way, Bill Self had best be well prepared and ready to install Plan B. Perry Ellis represents the fulcrum upon which current Bill Self Basketball teeter totters.
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When Bill announced, prior to this past season, that Perry Ellis would likely be his team’s leading scorer, I don’t think he was indicating a readiness to turn the scoring reins over to Greene and Frankamp, or to build an offense around Oubre or Alexander.
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I should probably make this my tag line at the bottom of all my posts about great players.
There is Wilt.
And then there is everyone else.
Seriously, Wilt could do anything but shoot free throws better than every other player that has played the game. He could have been a fabulous point guard–way better than Magic. Anyone that has watched him when he was young knows all it would have taken was three years playing point guard when he was young and he would have mastered it easily.
Either wing? He could do ANYTHING Jordan did plus a whole lot more. All it would have taken was three years playing the position when he was young.
Power Forward? OH…MY…GOD! He would have been the greatest Power forward ever and he wouldn’t have even needed three years work.
Center? Not even flipping close. With respect to @drgnslayr, and others that have blown Kareem’s horn, Wilt could have mastered a sky hook without any trouble at all. He almost certainly would have scored more with it than Kareem because he was soooo much stronger than Kareem. He could have shot every sky hook 5 feet from the basket and shot a much higher percentage than Kareem. Wilt would NEVER have had to range out as far as Kareem was always getting pushed. The reason Wilt never wasted his time shooting a hook shot was because it was frankly too low of a percentage shot for him to bother with, when he was strong enough to stay on a low block, and do one of two moves: 1) pivot and dunk; or pivot and fall away bank shot. Kareem had to shoot the much lower percentage hook because he was so weak. All of Wilt’s moves were based on highest shooting percentage. Kareem could never match Wilt’s scoring efficiency ever. This is what no one talks about. Wilt’s scoring efficiency dwarfed Kareerms and Kareem was the only guy that ever scored a lot of points efficiently ever other than Wilt. If Wilt had been willing to let his scoring efficiency sag to what Kareem’s routinely was, Wilt probably would have scored a hundred points in a game several times a season, not just one in his career.
Kareem was a great player.
But Wilt was UP HERE.
And Kareerm was down there.
All of which establishes the context for answering your question about Wilt’s rebounding in relation to Big Russ and Bill Bridges.
Wilt’s rebounding is UP HERE.
Big Russ, and Bill Bridges, rebounding are down here.
Big Russ and Bill Bridges are in my mind tied for greatest rebounders pound for pound among mortals. You might even put Rodman in with them. Its hard to compare Big Russ and Bridges because they guarded different positions and so blocked out and rebounded different positions.
Big Russ was the greatest rebounding center among mortals.
Bill Bridges was the greatest rebounding non center with Rodman a close second. Why was Bridges so great? Because he was 6-5 and played his entire NBA career on two bad knees and he could still rebound in double figures. Rodman was as good of a rebounder as Bridges. But Rodman did it on two good knees! This is why I hold Bridges is such high esteem.
But if you bounced a ball off the rim among Wilt, Big Russ, Bridges, and Rodman, Wilt would come up with it 9 out of 10 times.
Wilt is UP HERE.
Everyone else is down here.
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@jaybate-1.0 Thats awesome. I had no idea Wilt was so versatile. Never got to see him play. Much before my time. He should be the greatest player of all time, not Jordan.
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@Lulufulu Unfortunately the “greatest player of all time” is usually the greatest player at whatever time it is. Many are now pushing LeBron. Who knows who it will be in 10 years. How many people today know that Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double one year?
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I have to disagree with you on Wilt having the easy capability to master the hook. I never want to slam Wilt, he is definitely at the top of my list of true legends… but even Wilt had weaknesses in his game. Really, his one big weakness was touch. He could play so strong and athletic, and he could dance ballet around the basket, but the guy threw bricks at the goal. He had to finish at the rim because… he had to!
I’ll never forget how he tried everything in the book to try and get his FT% up. Underhand… standing back several feet from the line… tossing the ball like a ping pong ball. Wilt tried everything, but he couldn’t shoot from the perimeter or FTs because he lacked touch. And that skyhook Kareem used was pure touch.
I loved watching both of these greats play and just wished they could have overlapped for a longer period in the league. Their games were so different, as well as their personalities. I can’t believe the game will ever have two like these two in the game and in the game at the same time.
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Don’t forget that “allegedly” Wilt dunk free throws and the rule that the player cannot cross the free throw line was created because of that…
Rule Change - Wilt Chamberlain: Free throw plane
When Wilt Chamberlain was in high school, he had a unique way of shooting free-throws. He would stand at the top of the key, throw the ball up toward the basket, take two steps, jump toward the rim and jam the ball through the net. Doing this resulted in basketball rules to state that a player cannot cross the plane of the free-throw line when shooting a free-throw.
I have searched extensively over the years and I have not found any evidence he ever did this at a game at any level. The closest it came is that he did it during practice and didn’t really dunk the ball but laid it in.
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@JayHawkFanToo Anecdotal evidence: My dad told me the same story. I fondly remember my dad telling me the Wilt story. My dad went to WSU when Wilt was at KU, and he would catch as many KU games as possible. He said Wilt would take off from the Free Throw line and dunk it, until they outlawed it.
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Oh yeah… thanks for the reminder!
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@REHawk said:
In my not so humble opinion, the Jayhawks will be as good as Perry’s knee. Unless those hip spurs were a really serious factor, I don’t see Brannen Greene EVER fitting in well to Bill Self Basketball. His motion counterflows…upstream. Selden? Which Wayne will make a show? A dependable nightly show? And can Svi live up to his billing? Seemed like something of a waste, sitting idle after Christmas break last season. Maybe practice-time challenges elevated his game while visits with Hudy and co. sculpted his physique? Time will tell. I sure liked the way he moved the ball before Christmas. Mason and Graham? I’ve no skepticism re those two…so long as Mason’s legs hold up. And from recent photo clips of his work in the weight room, his knees looked strong as iron. Gotta trust that both Lucas and Mickelson take giant steps up the ladder of improvement. At least one of them bound to make significant gain. I still crave the energy of Diallo. Like a pistol in a waistband, he is a certified difference maker.
I really like your post. On Ellis, I’m confident that his knee will be 100%. I’m pretty sure he’s 100% right now. It’s the type of injury that is easily compensated with by use of a brace. Based on what we saw, this was most likely a grade I sprain. Self said before the NCAA tourney that Ellis was “getting his explosion back.” You don’t get that back in that timeframe, unless it was just a grade I sprain. Relatively minor injury to deal with once he got two weeks out from the injury. For next season, there is no worry. Heck, if he tore his ACL in February, it would be reasonable to think he would be 100% by the start of the season – think Branden Rush tearing his ACL in May, then returning the next season.
And I agree on Greene. I don’t see him fitting with Bill Self basketball. How much will Bill Self basketball change? Greene could be an incredible force. It all depends on how he’s used. For my money, if he’s not shooting threes, I don’t have much of a use for him in Self’s system otherwise.
Selden and Svi are crucial questions. I’m positive in both regards.
I do disagree with you on Lucas and Mickelson. I would say mini-steps. It’s hard to imagine either taking big leaps. And with Mickelson, how does he get on the floor? I noticed you avoided Traylor.
But this coming season rides very much on what coach Self has planned for this team. All predictions need to be qualified. If we play Self’s system, here’s prediction #1. If not, then predictions #2, #3, etc. based on possible changes.
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@HighEliteMajor Yeah, Jamari slipped my attention. Huh. Not certain precisely what I think in regard to his senior season. Plays with a lot of heart. Perhaps played in a lot more pain this past season than any of us realize. If an impact is, indeed, available, it will probably be a mini-step upward, as you have predicted for Lucas and Mickelson. Jamari’s life story a remarkable upward process. Would be dandy to see it capped with a winning individual play in a Final Four event.
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@REHawk Thanks for your reassuring analysis re Perry’s knee. I know beans about such injuries. Depending on recruiting, I wonder if Bill really is considering playing Perry a bit at the 3. Not likely, I should think; but he is likely to tamper with spacing this season, perhaps doing some experimenting this summer if the squad can manage enough wins to get to the second round of WUGs. The FIBA Rules shot clock should make for interesting developments in Bill’s planning.
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Most definitely. The only way anyone can make a case for anyone other than Wilton is to include most championship, and of course, as Wiltse, that is a team statistic, not a player statistic. Will played on the best “team” in the NBA two times and one to NBA titles…
Next, let me read emphasize how superior will was to Kareem offensely without a single “what if”. Kareem had only two money shots. A dunk that he was not strong enough to get up anytime he wanted. And this guy homework that he often to head to shoot 50% or less on.
Wilt had a dunk that he could score 99% of the time on even when they filed him, because he was the strongest player on the floor by an order of magnitude.
Wilt had a finger roll alternative to the dunk that was 95% accurate.
Will had a turnaround fadeaway Bankshot that was usually more accurate as Kareem’s skyhook, because he was able to take it closer to the basket.
These three shots could be taken off the same pivot foot planted immovably on the low block every trip down the floor.
No other post man has ever had the combination of Wilt’s height, strength and three money shots off the same pivot foot on the low block in the history of the game before or after Wilt Chamberlain.
Wilt’s three money shots off the same pivot foot were not an accident. The bear of the creative m they bear of the creative marks two great coaches–Red Auerbach and Phog Allen–and one great innovative mind–Dick Harp–that counseled and coached Wilt early. Allen was already expert in the hook from having taught it and build offenses around for it for four years with Clyde Lovellette. Auerbach and Allen both understood that the hook shot was, though hard to guard, a stoppable shot with double teaming, and a relatively low percentage shot in comparison to finger rolls, dunks, and turnaround Bank shots. Thus, they crafted Wilt’s money shots around being completely unstoppable. Two worlds great credit, he listened and perfected all three shots, while developing his strength. Will came to have a brilliant basketball mind in his own right.
One more thing to remember Wilt: every player that ever stopped on the floor with them respected an did not challenge his strength. Though a gentle giant, we’re not provoked, comments about Wilts herculean physical feats and acts of dominance and physical intimidation are legendary and many. Most players admitted to living in fear of him breaking their arms, if they tried to stop his dunk sho most players admitted to living in fear of him breaking their arms, if they tried to stop his dunk shot.
Wilt was up here.
Kareem was down here.
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I can’t pick Wilt or Kareem as one better than the other. They were both phenomenal and are models for all future players concerning their effectiveness. They both had their strengths and weaknesses… did their best to exploit their strengths and perhaps mask their weaknesses.
What makes me curious is how both of these players would do against some of the other great 5s that came later. Think of them in their prime and other guys in their prime, head to head. Guys like Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Malone. Kareem might have played some of these guys, but not in his prime.
I’m most curious about Wilt. Hard to say what his power game would have done against power like Shaq? Olajuwon? Kareem lived off of finesse. No one could block his skyhook, especially in his prime. And as he perfected the skyhook, he moved it into most locations in the paint because defenders finally started to realize how to hedge against him and force him away from his spot. Not sure it would have mattered if he played guys like Shaq or Olajuwon, whereas Wilt going against these other 5s made it a direct confrontation… more interesting match ups.
I still think Wilt would sit at the top even if going against guys that came later and dominated… but it would have been great to see him have to battle harder against guys better suited to challenge his game.
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I think when you talk about Wilt or Kareem … you almost have to add another person to the discussion. … And that person is Bill Russell !!
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@RedRooster
“Before the 1966–67 season, Celtics coach Red Auerbach retired. Initially, he had wanted his old player Frank Ramsey as coach, but Ramsey was too occupied running his three lucrative nursing homes. His second choice Bob Cousy declined, stating he did not want to coach his former teammates, and the third choice Tom Heinsohn also said no, because he did not think he could handle the often surly Russell. However, Heinsohn proposed Russell himself as a player-coach, and when Auerbach asked his center, he said yes. Russell thus became the first African American head coach in NBA history and commented to journalists: “I wasn’t offered the job because I am a Negro, I was offered it because Red figured I could do it.” The Celtics’ championship streak ended that season at eight, however, as Wilt Chamberlain’s Philadelphia 76ers won a record-breaking 68 regular season games and overcame the Celtics 4–1 in the Eastern Finals. The Sixers simply outpaced the Celtics, shredding the famous Boston defense by scoring 140 points in the clinching Game 5 win. Russell acknowledged his first real loss in his career (he had been injured in 1958 when the Celtics lost the NBA Finals) by visiting Chamberlain in the locker room, shaking his hand and saying, “Great”. However, the game still ended on a high note for Russell. After the loss, he led his grandfather through the Celtics locker rooms, and the two saw white Celtics player John Havlicek taking a shower next to his black teammate Sam Jones and discussing the game. Suddenly, Russell Sr. broke down crying. Asked by his grandson what was wrong, his grandfather replied how proud he was of him, being coach of an organization in which blacks and whites coexisted in harmony.”
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@drgnslayr Great Response and Comments !!! Thank YOU !!!
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@drgnslayr That is a very cool part of history you shared there. Thanks for that. Great stuff.
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First, I want to say that because I trust you so much, I went back and studied Wilt’s and Kareem’s shooting stats.
What leaped out at me in your defense is that that Kareem’s career per game basis eFG% is 56% vs. ONLY 54% for Wilt! Score one for the slayr!!
Kareem http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html
Wilt http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html
The raw FG%s are similar. Score another for the slayr!
After learning this, I was ready to check into the Alzheimer’s home and start wandering around in the fog.
But then I zoned in on years in which Wilt scored ppg amounts similar to Kareem. BOOM! I felt redeemed.
When Wilt was averaging 33 t0 50 ppg for his first 9 seasons, his eFG% and his FG% suffered a bit. He fell below 50% two of those seasons–46% his rookie season and .499 his 7th seasons.
By comparison, Kareem only scored greater than 33 ppg once in all his seasons, Wilt scored a lot more than 33 ppg 8 seasons.
Kareem’s highest scoring season was a doozy. He scored 34.8 ppg with 57.4% accuracy. Awesome.
Wilt’s highest scoring season, when he averaged 50.4 ppg, he shot only 50.9%.
And when we compare Kareem’s highest scoring season of 34.8 ppg making 57.4% with Wilt’s comparable 33 ppg season we see Wilt shot 54%. Score another for slayr.
But then something remarkable happens. Wilt plays with very good Laker teams and decides to score in the 20-25 ppg range, at the request of Bill Sharman; this is the same rate as Kareem scored for the majority of his career.
Kareem is highly efficient scoring 20-25 ppg, and his effective FG% ranges between 55-60% with most seasons being 55-58% with two 60% seasons. Awesome Kareem.
But Wilt decides to show everyone what the actual upper limits of scoring efficiency are for human beings.
So: for five seasons Wilt scores between 20-27 ppg and shoots between 57-68% eFG%. Oh my! Dunks, finger rolls, and turnaround fadeaways for five seasons achieve a higher percentage than skyhooks over a long career.
But that isn’t the end of Wilt’s decision to show what the upper limits of eFG% for human beings can be.
Wilt’s last two seasons he decided not to shoot much at all just the same as Kareem did his last two seasons. Here follows the ppg and eFG% for Wilt and Kareem.
Wilt 14.8 ppg, 64.9% 13.2 ppg, 72.7%
Kareem 14.6 ppg, 53.2% eFG 10.1 ppg, 47.5% eFG
So: what I infer here is that Kareem was marvelously consistent and efficient over his career and because he was asked to score vastly less for his teams his total career eFG% comes out higher than Wilt’s does by a slip margin of 56 to 54 percent.
But when you drill down to Wilt and Kareem playing for good teams and being asked to score about the same load in the 20-25 ppg range, Wilt then becomes either as efficient, or sharply more so.
And when you drill down to the end of their careers, when both are on good teams but needing to score very little, Wilt’s efficiency completely stomps on Kareem’s.
What I take away from this is that if Wilt and his trio of money shots (i.e., dunk, finger roll and turnaround fadeaway bank) were sharply more efficient means of scoring than Kareem’s duo of money shots (i.e., dunk and sky hook).
Had Wilt been allowed to score as little as Kareem, Wilt might well have average 60% from the field for his career, as opposed to Kareem’s 56%.
And had Wilt been allowed to score in the 10-15 ppg range he would likely have averaged making 65-70% eFG, where as Kareem would have continued to labor along a in the 55-60% range, because Kareem was not strong enough to just dunk, and though he was the all time master of the hook shot IMHO, the hook shot just does not permit as high of an eFG% as does Wilt’s combination of dunks, finger rolls and turnaround fadeaways.
So, the way I look as this @drgnslayr is: we BOTH win.
You were right. Overall it is tough to pick against Kareem’s stats as being the more efficient scorer.
But I was right. When Wilt was permitted to score at the rate Kareem was allowed to score at, Wilt was a significantly more efficient FG scorer than Kareem.
One bias that I have forgotten to take out of this analysis is that Wilt’s astronomical scoring years occurred his first nine seasons, just as Kareem’s biggest scoring years did to. This was the time when Wilt averaged 50 and 44 ppg in two seasons, while Kareem was scoring 34.8 and 31.7 ppg. It is frankly unnerving to imagine what shooting percentage Wilt might have achieved his first nine seasons had he only had to score 20-25 ppg. I am not joking, when I say that he might well have averaged 65-70% from the field at the height of his athleticism, and only having score 20-25 ppg. My reason for introducing this point is that if anything, stats are dramatically underestimating how efficient Wilt might have been.
I still think coaches are missing the boat today not teaching the footers of today the finger roll and the turnaround fadeaway bank shot to go with the dunk. Wooden’s shooting studies proved tie and again that the bank shot from the 45 degree angle is the highest percentage shot on the floor outside of layups and dunks. It is frankly stupid to have 6-0 point guards and 6-6 wings driving the iron, when a footer could be shooting anyone of those three moves off a pivot from the low block and scoring a basket 55-60% of the time plus a FT 60-70% of the time. And if you happen to find the next Wilt or Kareem, in college you could probably count on making 65-75% off the pivot.
Rock Chalk!!!
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How about FT %?
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Achilles had his heel.
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…and how did that work out for Achilles?
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He became one of two defining myths of western civilization for 2000 years. And a name for an onerous surgery.
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The answer I was looking for was…it cost him his life…right?
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Details, details. Glass half full. He took quite a few with him!!!
Rock Chalk!!!
Bring on Brandon!!!
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@RedRooster
Yes, Bill Russell not only belongs in a conversation about the greatest centers ever to play the game, but also in a conversation about the greatest humans ever to walk the planet. He faced many tough challenges in his life, along with many great victories; in my books, defining the word “winner!”
I’m enjoying your take on all of this.
I see the comparison of Kareem and Wilt as about a literal “Yin and Yang” situation as they come… especially when in context of comparing two male parts.
Kareem is the Yin… the more passive “female” role. Willing to absorb the aggression of the Yang in order to persevere and conquer through patience and filling in all the space surrounding the aggression.
Wilt is the Yang… the more dominant “male” role. Always pushing aggression and utilizing brute strength. He conquered the moment.
Yin and Yang is the perfect metaphor for these two because both of their greatness could not be realized and described without the other. We couldn’t define Wilt’s strength as the dominant force over all the great centers without comparing his strength to the weaker Kareem. And we couldn’t define Kareem’s patience and shielded tool (skyhook) as greatness over premiere centers without showing how he could hang tough with Wilt on the floor.
I seriously don’t see how one can be defined without the other.
Bill Russell offers up something totally different. He can’t exactly be compared apples-to-apples, or oranges-to-oranges, but that does not mean the taste of a pear is any less sweet! By today’s standards, Russell is a power forward, not a true center. But he sure could fool a lot of people, including every player on the floor when he was on it!
