Self recently stated…
“Depending who returns, we could have more of a veteran team. Hopefully that could play to our favor a little bit (in handling a difficult schedule),” he said. “You stop and think about it … Svi (Mykhailiuk) is a year older, Devonté (Graham) and Frank (Mason III) a year older and Wayne (Selden Jr.) a year older. If everybody stayed and would be a year older, that’d be a pretty experienced and talented team coming back. The reality of that happening is not great. We’ll have to wait and see how it all plays out."
Seriously? You mean we may just stay being one of the youngest teams in America? How do we get off this broken record!
Svi, Devonte, Frank and Wayne… not all of these guys stay? Seriously? I guess maybe Wayne thinks he is ready for the NBA with his 9.4 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 2.05 TOpg?
Is it that unpleasant to play at Kansas?
nuleafjhawk last edited by
@drgnslayr I feel your frustration. You and I and some other old timers would love to see the OAD situation go away. It won’t. So what do we do? Be like Cal and get 9 or 10 McD’s every year? If that’s the answer - how do we accomplish that?
And I’m not even sure I want to “accomplish” that. For me, part of the fun - a BIG part of following KU is watching the players grow and get better, get smarter every year. Write their names in the record books. Or get their first start on Senior Day. It won’t be long before Senior Day is a thing of the past. How sad is that?
I’m still pissed at Paul Pierce for leaving after his junior year! He’s one of the few that probably should have, but I still hated it. The way I see it, KU spends big money and a lot of time recruiting these guys. Gives them a top-notch education, teaches them how to play basketball, takes them all over the country (world), makes them household names and how do many of them repay KU? Jump to the NBA. They’re not ready.
@drgnslayr I did not understand Bill’s comment on this. Obviously Svi already said he is back. None of the other players he mentioned are NBA ready and none have been rumored to be unhappy at KU. I just don’t get it.
We should have everyone back except Oubre and Cliff. Our two OAD’s. Perhaps this is the year where we don’t have to deal with any OAD BS. Bragg is not an OAD. Maybe we will be really fortunate and have “system” players!
Statmachine last edited by
I saw that we are out on Ivan Rabb.
At this point I’d like us to get guys that stay at least 2 years. But I understand that things change… and guys that are not projected as OAD can end up that way.
I put a lot of blame on the media. For example, Kelly is no more ready for the league than I am. It is ridiculous that after his first decent game as a Jayhawk all the media buzz was about him leaving. He scored a mere 333 pts as a Jayhawk. Hardly the contribution we need from players. Now we have a hole to fill… with another freshman, no doubt.
The only way this system works is if you do get 9 or 10 McDs AAs. I might as well spend my time watching the NBA… or Michigan State and Wisconsin basketball (I already do that). At least both my non-Jayhawk teams made it to the FF. Would love to see a MSU vs UW final!
Funny… there are two teams from the Big 10 in the FF. I’ve heard very little media chatter about that. It’s the roughest conference to play in and none of these teams are crying about playing injured (note to Kansas).
Those comments didn’t sit well with me either. But when Self makes comments like that we should assume that something is going to happen that us Fans won’t understand.
Notice he didn’t mention Kelly. My other thought was that he didn’t mention him because that’s the guy that’s going to go pro and deservingly so he’s a lotto pick. So are his comments directly talking about maybe Selden leaving or was it towards Kelly…
Not really sure we will know the answer until it happens. The more time passes without any word from Selden will only drag on the suspense that he is leaving. I remember him last year saying he was coming back pretty quickly after the season ended. Maybe that had to do with him being hurt and knowing he couldn’t perform for scouts to keep his draft grade high enough.
I will throw this in, Selden leaving looks better for Newman or Brown coming to KU. You could potentially trade 9pts a game for 18 with Newman. That kid can flat out score the ball even if its for one year. Brown has the potential to do the same. Would you trade a Jr for a Freshman if that Freshman was a scoring phenom?
“Would you trade a Jr for a Freshman if that Freshman was a scoring phenom?”
Let’s see… half the season for him to get used to the speed and size of D1, and the other half of the season where he has to get used to (and learn) Self ball… I guess that leaves perhaps a couple of decent scoring games in there. And let’s not forget that we don’t build offense around individual players. It is believed in our camp that if a player is a stud, the other 4 guys just stand on the other side and watch him score… 1 on 5… the Wiggin’s way.
I think the only shoe-in for us in taking on a freshman and making him “the man” on offense is to get a guy like Towns (Kentucky) who knows how to dominate from 5 ft out. Got to hand it to Calipari for figuring out that one. He is going to live through Towns for the rest of the tournament. Hopefully… they are preparing for their last game!
Sorry… I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! I awoke with the taste of “broken record insanity” in my mouth!
These guys he talked about will be here, that’s what I thought he meant.
@drgnslayr depends on the jr.
I can’t imagine Selden would leave. The highest I have seen him on an NBA draft list is 43rd. He needs another year to try and improve upon that draft status, right?
“The reality of that happening is not great.”
Self constantly speaks French to us and we all need a translator… but I thought this was as clear as “voilà!” Maybe its Self speaking in “Riverboat Gambler” language. Think he’s talking bluff?!
He really needs 2 years. Even though he has issues with his game, the potential is there for him.
You might be right that there would be an adjustment period but Newman strikes me as one of those can’t miss talents. The talents that Okafor, Towns, Winslow, Towns, Jones turned out to be. I mean if you have seen Newman play you know he’s got unlimited range on his jumper and makes more contested hard to make shots than anyone in the class. Scored over 3,000 points in HS, these guys don’t come around very often. I think it’s a no brainer that he’d be an instant upgrade to Selden offensively. Selden spent half the season not scoring this year as well. Would that change as a Jr? we just don’t know the answer to that.
I think into the future and feel like if he ends up at Kentucky or LSU and puts up 18 a game that half of us fans next year will be like damn wish Self got Newman…
@drgnslayr still think he meant oubre and Cliff are the reality, they weren’t mentioned, Perry either.
@drgnslayr I was equally struck by the other part of HCBS’s comments - that the schedule needed to be “softened” because some of the non-conf guarantee games required 40 minutes of effort, the implication being that he couldn’t work in less experienced guys, esp. like Svi and Hunter. It appears that he took the tack this year that he had to really shorten his rotation early in order to minimize the risk of a couple of meaningless non-conf losses. I would more than willing to take an extra loss or two during the season if it meant that we had fresher legs during March and more guys that we could turn to in crunch time, because they had been there. Izzo has always said that he’s willing to take a few L’s during the early part of the season to get this team where he wants to be at the end. He sat Trice for a while earlier in the year to make a point or two. It gave him the confidence to put in a freshmen like Clark in crunch time. Most years we have a depth of talent edge over most any other team - but it doesn’t do much good if you don’t advantage of it…
Kip_McSmithers last edited by
I wish Newman could come here, put up 18 per game, all in the flow of the game and not disturb our high/low. Wiggins didn’t put up 18 per game so I’m not sure Newman will. Plus why would he come to a place that won’t showcase his talents??
@Kip_McSmithers didn’t hurt wigs draft pick! Wigs also said he was surprised how much he had to learn, so he did improve at KU.
DoubleDD Banned last edited by
My guess is HCBS is about to over recruit the guards he already has. Meaning some will be unhappy and feel betrayed. Hence transferring.
Wigs avg’d 17 a game, year before B-Mac was at 15.9. We can give Newman the keys to score 18 a game. He’s a more gifted scorer than both of them. I get it, hard to put stock in a Freshman after the feeling of our OAD’s underachieving in Self’s system but this kid is a dynamic scorer. The only reason he’s not #1 in his class is because he’s a 6"3 SG that’s going to have to learn to play PG in the league. He was #1 until Ben Simmons blew up.
I’m certainly not saying that we need to drop Selden for him, I feel emotionally invested in seeing Wayne become the player we all see glimpses of. But if Self’s comments are directed at him, and he leaves, I’m leaving on a plane to Mississippi with a come to KU sign for Newman.
Glad Self is finally realizing the brutal schedule we’ve played has done us no favors. 19 losses last 2. You know the Champions Classic is always going to be there, the Big12/SEC Challenge, the annual tournament this year MAUI, so why not schedule more home games against fair to middling competition. The Big 12’s strength isn’t getting any easier this year and with only 10 teams really makes it a grind when you have to play each team on the road. But doesn’t sound like this year will be the year it gets any easier with Michigan St. @ San Diego St. a place that has become near impossible to win in, rumored UK coming to Allen Fieldhouse, annual Sprint Center game against good competition.
“My guess is HCBS is about to over recruit the guards he already has. Meaning some will be unhappy and feel betrayed. Hence transferring.”
I’m afraid of that, too. It points to the real issue with our program… the inability to coach up players. If you have that ability, then you just need a kid with plenty of upside and a good attitude for learning. Take Devonte… we going to dump him because he doesn’t have enough height?
Sorry… I’ve had a weekend of Izzo ball. That gives me an edge. It makes me look back at our program and see us as a Kentucky wannabe.
@drgnslayr I really hope not. I’ll take Frank Mason and Devonte for the next two years over any OAD. No question. Look at MSU this year. Look at Wisconsin. These are kids who have played for good coaches and learned a ton and are poised and ready in the post season.
I see Frank as one of the best PG’s in basketball his senior year with Devonte as an incredible compliment. To screw that up would be a huge loss in my opinion no matter who we sign.
B I N G O !!! I might think Frank is a better 2 and Devonte at point. I know we are supposed to have a 6’5"+ 2-guard… but Frank could really do well back at his old position… he was a volume scorer in HS. Imagine him not straddled with running the team? Give him minutes at 1 and 2. Devonte has LEADER written all over him! He may be our first really TRUE PG in the Self era! That’s right… he could surpass the greats like Mario and Sherron. He’s a player and he is the most socially outgoing player we’ve ever had. His enthusiasm is off the charts, and he is pure alpha dog. HE HAS EVERYTHING YOU COULD EVER WANT IN A GUY AT POINT!
@BeddieKU23 Agree that the schedule has been brutal, and it would be nice to get a handful of laughers. And, I definitely prefer 30+ win seasons to the last couple of years. Having said that, I would even more prefer more deep runs in March. Various comparisons have been made to MSU/Izzo. Here’s another one - in his 9 E8 or better runs, his teams have averaged 8 losses per season - more if you take out the 3 consecutive FFs at the end of the 90s - and only 1 30 win season since then. Do we put too much emphasis on the regular season?
DoubleDD Banned last edited by
Oh I feel your frustrations. It drives me nuts that HCBS wants to recruit the best then play a system that requires years to really learn, fully knowing these kids will be gone in a year. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Like I’ve been trying to tell everyone. I’m not against KU playing the High/low system. I’m just saying recruit to that system. Don’t recruit a kid that can shoot lights out from three, if all your going to do is have him pass the ball into the paint all game.
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@drgnslayr Agreed that Self throws things out there “in French”. Things like who will play where-Evan Manning at guard-who is injured/playing, who could be our best players.
I think sometimes he doesn’t want to show his hand, sometimes he is throwing out comments to confuse another coach or keep his own players on their toes. And last of all I’ve heard him give strange answers to what he/we would consider a stupid question.
Not sure the answer is easy on the focus of on the regular season. I believe that in order to have a good team for March you have to focus on the games you play before then for preparation. But the teams left have either continued their season long success (UK, Duke, Wisconsin) or become a talented team at the right time (Michigan St.). 3 of the 4 had great regular seasons and one improved at the right time.
Michigan St. can be this years UConn. And when you have the coach who’s a master at winning in March and a Sr. Point Guard who’s playing his best you have the recipe for making it this far. We beat Michigan St in November but they are not the same team we beat back then. You could say KU was a better team around that time period then the one that limped into the tourney.
As a side note to the scheduling, we had a handful of easy games this year. We had a whole bunch of games that we made harder than we needed to and that alludes to all the issues of consistent play we had during the year. I’m certain this team could have won 30 games easily but we didn’t make the game easy on ourselves and in turn it became an emotional/physical grind unable to fully develop the whole team for success. You hope this team will learn from this year and try again.
Very frustrated… and with the attitude that it’s all about the players. If we aren’t good enough we just have to recruit over our existing players. We have tons of talent on this team and just need a solid 5.
Would Self really throw Devonte and Frank to the curb? What… for players with more height? Frank fits the role of utility player except for his height. Devonte should be developed into the TOP PG in the country by the time he is a senior! We should be a true FF threat… maybe even by next year… definitely in two years and in Devonte’s senior year. Having the best PG in the country will do that for you. It took a team like WSU and made them a contender even though they had no height and little athleticism.
I’ve really started questioning our coaches and their ability to spot talent and potential (and develop it). I’ve never resolved the Buddy Hield recruiting mistake. Devonte is the REAL DEAL!
I like keeping our schedule as tough as possible. We need to start thinking like Izzo. If you really want to build tough, then you play everyone in those early tough games. Stop worrying about winning them all. Izzo could care less. Look at the FF… 1-seed… 1-seed… 1-seed… 7-seed!
Izzo does the right things to prepare his boys for March. He wants them to struggle all year so they continue to fight to improve.
If we really want to contend in March, we have to be willing to lose in November. Play everyone and make everyone accountable. We couldn’t make Hunter accountable this year in March. The guy hardly played all year. What a pity! Why? So we could win a dumb game in November? Does anyone really think we have to put that much effort into qualifying to be in March Madness?
The Spartans record is 27-11… 11 losses! Anyone question their toughness? They don’t have a team full of NBA guys but they are playing every bit to their potential!
It isn’t enough to play tough games in the non-conf. You have to be willing to lose them. Make every player responsible and give them all minutes.
Devonte is the real deal. Pull up jumper and defense were great at times. Good thing for Devonte is he can develop with a great player next to him in Frank. The more I think about it, heck just put them both out there and play 2 PG’s.
Yes… they deserve minutes together. But Devonte needs to lead the team. He’s the PG. I hope that kid sticks around in Lawrence. I’m more psyched up about him than any other player or prospect!
He needs to get tons of minutes at PG this summer! We might just be surprised what he does this coming year!
Another point on Devonte is he’s the equivalent of a Red-Shirt Sophomore heading into this year. Because of his issues with Appalachian he went to prep school. I believe that year besides giving him the exposure that landed him to us was the fact that he came in already physically and mentally tougher than kids straight out of school. Too bad he got hurt at the wrong time because that was when he was playing high level ball. Then it took him all the way to the end of the season to get it back. Korea will really help him, and it will be great to have him and Frank interchangeable at PG.
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You hit the nail on the head as to why shortly after Temple I wrote “I’m done”. It’s tiresome to see inexperienced yet talented kids leave school early for the league year after year. Self needs to learn I guess how to find those 3-4 year guys like we had when we won a championship and when we nearly won another.
@Nuleafjhawk I was equally pissed when Gooden left. Carmelo doesn’t win a ring if Gooden is there. He shouldn’t have anyways, but that’s a different story.
Of course, people talk about Wisconsin but what they may not realize is while Frank and Sam and Josh and the others were cutting their teeth in preparation for this year they were losing 10 games a season and losing to Mississippi in the first round like they did just two tournaments ago. Their success comes at a cost of some losses and early exits some years.
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What about Ellis? Surely, he isn’t on the fence staying. At least I hope so.
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@wissoxfan83 No one could have guessed that the 08 team would have stayed as long as they did.
Rush, Mario, Robinson, Shady, and Sherron were all 5 star guys. They actually didn’t perform like everything thought they would the first couple years. Wright left early the year before and Rush only came back because he tore his ACL. It was a perfect storm.
Throw in there Jackson who everyone was frustrated with until his senior season, it was seasons of rain before the group molded into a machine.
@JhawkAlum Excellent points.
I was under the impression that Rush was the only one ready to bolt the year before, but the ACL changed that.
Here is the roster for MSU… a nice blend of players from FR to SR…
Not a single OAD on that team. In fact… have they ever had an OAD at MSU?
Kip_McSmithers last edited by
No it didn’t hurt Wiggins, but I wasn’t nearly as concerned with where Wiggins ended up in the draft as I was to how KU faired in the Madness. And we crashed and burned in that regard. So I’d rather not have a bunch of And1 mix tape moments for Newman while Perry, Frank, ect. stand around watching him get his. That’s obviously not how KU succeeds.
So at what point do we (Self and Co.) rethink the whole OAD and KU?? Something seriously has to give. Either a change up in the Offense/Defense systems we run. Either more emphasis on getting the right guys (H/L guys) and not just the best guys out there. Or we scrape the OAD recruitment and get back to the TwoAD and ThreeAD guys.
Lets face it, OAD era hasn’t panned out for us. Xavier era gave us the UNI, Ali’s moment, and time to enjoy spring break without KU basketball to watch. Selby’s time here got us an Elite 8 upset by VCU. Wiggins and Embiid gave us Stanford and another first weekend send off. And then this past season the Oubre and Alexander experiment gave us all the embarrassment of lil brother WSU bitch slapping us. (Note: Ben is NOT a OAD, he is a TwoAD. He and Jamari spent a year “red shirting” prior to his breakout)
Professional teams don’t just go after the best guys in the draft, they usually try to get the guys that they need and the ones that fit their systems. So why does KU try to get every recruit 1-20?? Do they all fit our systems? Or are we under the impression they can all run our systems because they’re so talented??
I used to think that the best strategy was for us to recruit the guys just below the OADs, and then sprinkle perhaps a couple of OADs, too.
Not so sure now. It just doesn’t seem like you can develop the true “team concept” when you have a couple of players just biding their time waiting for draft day.
I really enjoyed Wigs. We didn’t use him the right way but he did what he could do to blend in. He still couldn’t blend in. The TV cameras and the media circus didn’t help our team. And when it came down to play, he was given a different set of rules with Self. Our other players would stand around when Wigs got the ball so it was 1 on 5 with Wigs asked to push it to the rim.
We should have been playing offense like ND did. Wigs drive the ball and feed another slasher cutting to the rim at a different angle. It was really fun watching ND play. If the officiating had been fair on the play of the 5s, they would be a FF team.
I keep blasting our coaches for not developing players well enough (or fast enough).
Maybe they just can’t keep up with the media’s perception of where the players are. Like I said earlier… Kelly’s first decent game and the media had him gone. Kelly has progressed nicely this year, but anyone think he is ready for the NBA?
***I’m thinking I (and many of you) need to sign up for comments on some of these sites and BLAST the writers who are so quick to call Kansas freshmen gone to the league.
BeddieKU23 last edited by BeddieKU23
Dawson was an All-American but at 6"6 PF didn’t ever have a position in the NBA without a jump-shot so he made it to his Sr season with injuries.
Wonder how much Harris made this team better having to sit and play on the scout team. We’ve all seen that gunner glad he left from West Virginia.
Trice had to wait his turn behind Appling & Harris who was a 2AD. His improvement could not be projected like he is playing now. He taught enough for Nairn to take over next year minus the jump-shot.
Valentine & Costello top 100 kids. Just have continued to get better and better.
Forbes was a nice waiver transfer who can shoot.
He got 5 star PF Davis for next year and Sharpshooting Mcquaid. Izzo gets his fair share of talent.
He could be even better next year.
wissoxfan83 last edited by wissoxfan83
I think Gary Harris a couple of years back at MSU? I might be wrong.
Magic was a 2 and done, a rarity in those days for sure. Too bad he didn’t stick around.
In fact it’s interesting to think about the epic battles of the 70’s and 80’s and which wouldn’t have taken place if it was in 2015. Certainly Larry-Magic wouldn’t have happened. MJ, Sam, and James against Patrick and his fellow brawlers may not have, although Patrick was a freshman that year I guess.
Houston-Louisville in '83 or '84, what a show those teams put on with experienced players!
My senior year at KU probably wouldn’t have been very magical without Danny around in 1988.
@Kip_McSmithers I really don’t hold any warm feelings for Wiggins. He did nothing wrong, but having him on that team while we all knew he was going to be gone meant I didn’t connect with him. I’ve connected with guys who stick around, even if they’re relative stiffs. I will always remember Jamari fondly because of what he’s done for the team. Wiggins, thanks for stopping by but you did nothing for me personally.
We had what… 4 McDs AAs? Okay… one was not eligible for March. Shouldn’t we have had enough talent to at least make it to the Sweet 16?
Gosh… how many of our players were Top 100? All maybe?
your right but we got matched up against our step brother that wanted to prove he was better. It’s like MJ’s kids playing him 1 on 1 and their like just one time let me beat Mike and you know what it happened.
Injury to Ellis certainly didn’t help. You go from what 20pts to 11 post injury is hard to compensate for.
Young team, again what top 10 youngest team again in D1. That should change if the pieces stick.
We underachieved we all know it, we see what the teams that survived have done to make it this far. Self definitely has to take this year and improve everything
I’m glad we didn’t play ND… they would have smoked us like a cheap cigar!
I guess I challenge our ability to coach toughness.
I was watching the MSU/UL game yesterday… it was in the second half and Louisville had the lead, and many would have thought they would be favored to get the win. I had little doubt that MSU would pull it out. They thrive on just staying close in a game and then hammering down at the end, closing out the right way.
Two guys, Costello and Schilling, had fouled out and they stuck it to Louisville in OT!
Those guys are tough and I can’t wait for their game with rat face!
I agree I don’t think our best game with this years squad would have come close against them. They played the perfect game to beat Kentucky and still lost, how crazy is that crap. Their guard play would have negated our advantage which they almost pulled off on Kentucky with an entire team bigger than them.
I thought the toughness was brought back to KU after the Boot camp and marine experience. And that seemed to work for a part of the season. We have close gritty wins. But something changed, we lost the identity of the team, got banged up and tired out from the grind and bailed out because of it.
Harris was last year. A 5-star player that personified Izzo’s traits. Maybe Bragg will become the 2 or 3AD type of Self player that personifies him.
I think the key to beating Kentucky is to have a 5 that will not get pushed back when Towns gets the ball in the low post.
I hope Frank can weather that storm. I hope he practices drawing charges on those plays when Towns lowers his body and pushes back.
Come on, Badgers!
“We have close gritty wins. But something changed, we lost the identity of the team, got banged up and tired out from the grind and bailed out because of it.”
I think that sums up our year pretty well.
We should get stronger when we get banged up, not weaker. That’s when the toughness goes into effect. That is hallmark Izzo. He always has to survive injuries playing in the Big 10. That conference is a heck of a lot rougher play than the Big 12. Huggy is the only guy in our league that plays a version of Big 10 basketball… and he had a small team this year.
I swiped this from the MSU Spartan Basketball site:
"MSU’s M.A.S.H. Unit Michigan State has dealt with injury issues for much of the season. Freshman Javon Bess underwent surgery in late October on a broken bone in his right foot. After missing the first 10 games, he made his debut against Eastern Michigan. He played in the next 12 games but has since been ruled out for the remainder of the season. Sophomore Alvin Ellis III suffered a severe sprained right ankle after just three minutes against Navy and did not return to action until playing five minutes against Notre Dame. Junior Bryn Forbes did not miss any time, but he played with a brace on his left (non-shooting) hand while recovering from a broken bone for the first 10 games. Senior Branden Dawson missed MSU’s game vs. Santa Clara with the flu, which also limited his minutes at the Orlando Classic. Against Eastern Michigan, he suffered a wrist injury that kept him out of action for two games. In the home finale vs. Purdue, Dawson took an elbow to the face and was limited to just nine minutes against the Boilermakers, and missed the following game at Indiana. In total, MSU has lost 29 games due to illness and injury for its rotation players. "
MSU has lost 29 games due to illness and injury for its rotation players.
Branden Dawson suffered a stable, non-displaced fracture on his left wrist after taking a hard fall in the Dec. 17 contest vs. Eastern Michigan.
So THEY are in the Final Four while we’ve been making injury excuses for two weeks because we couldn’t make it to the Sweet 16.
Sounds like a football teams injury report. Notice Trice & Valentine absent from the injury reports. Their fools gold 3’s all year made almost as many as we made as a team. Izzo blended in 3 point gunning (almost 200 more attempts) than KU on the year with enough inside play, plus toughness.
Having Ellis on 1 1/2 legs did effect things. We might not think Cliff was a big deal but it was too not having him. He messed the whole depth up. Lucas had to play 30 minutes a game with 3 injuries. No excuses but the injury bug has hit us at the worst of times now twice.