JaQuan Lyle And The Dreaded Transfer Risks
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Jaquan retweeted this from Adam zagoria this morning.
@AdamZagoria: Kansas, which is recruiting @JMamba5 hard, will watch him today. Oregon saw him last night.
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@jessej421: For example, with Lucas, he has already redshirted. He’s technically a freshman. If he happened to transfer at semester, he’d be out until December/2014. So his freshman year of eligibility would be gone (this season), he’d lose the first part of his sophomore season, and he’d start off in December/2014 with eligibility the remainder of that season, plus two more seasons. Mickelson is a season ahead, and thus would have the remainder of that season, plus only one more. Same with Traylor. It’s what @JayHawkFanToo was referring to … a kid sits and burns a year of eligibilty if he’s already redshirted.
I believe it’s the one year in residency rule that prevails here. That’s where you’ve heard about waivers, etc. The one year in residency rule is different from a redshirt, but it burns a year under the “play 4 seasons in 5 seasons” rule @jessej421 was referring to. A good example is Traylor and Mickelson. Traylor has used his excess season as a redshirt, and Mickelson based on the one year in residency rule. So a kid would not have a redshirt year after he transfers and sits under the one year in residency rule, but for an injury exception.
Once you play in a season, it counts toward your eligibilty. So assume a player hasn’t redshirted, like Frankamp. He has now played. He has burned one year of eligibility. Redshirting works for a school year, not the calendar year. Frankamp would be sophomore if he played at anytime in the 2014-15 season – meaning if he transferred at semester, he would be a sophomore for the second semester of next season. He could transfer at semester, and redshirt next season, and be a sophomore for 2015-16. He could also transfer at the end of the season, sit 2014-15 due to the one year in residency rule (which is essentially a redshirt year, but not technically), and be eligible as a sophomore 2015-16.
Again all eligibility has to fit within the “play 4 seasons in 5 seasons” parameter.
It is harsh … but with Lucas, for example, how will he play anyway in the year he would sit out through December/2014? He might, but regardless, I do hope he stays.
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@HEM Since Mickelson can’t play this year, are you sure he would loose a year of elgibility if he transferred? I’m trying to think back to Withey, did he ever play for Arizona or just practice? If he just practiced than he lost one semesters elgibility to practice (practice man!).
But would Mickelson have to sit out next year if he transferred, having just completed a red shirt year?
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For the non twitter people (like me) JMamba5 is JaQuan Lyle.
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@dylans. Whitey did not play during his only semester (Fall 2008 ) at Arizona and transferred to KU around the Christmas break, but that semester counted against him. He had to sit out a year (spring 2009 and Fall 2009) and was eligible to play at the end of 2009 and that was considered his first year. After that he had 3 full seasons, 2010-2011, 2011-2012 and 2012-2013.
In short, he played 3-1/2 season at KU, sat out 2 semesters, and 1 semester was counted as having played for Arizona, even though he did not actually play. It really is not that complicated but it is not that simple either because you also have to consider the hardship waivers and medical red-shirts as well as 4th year players that graduated and are allowed to play at a new school without sitting out one year, and coaches blocking transfer to creation schools that complicate the process.
Many coaches such as Coach Self and Coach K are in favor of doing away with all the exceptions; here is link to an article about coach K:
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I would not be surprised if Andrew White transfers after this year. (I wouldn’t blame him.) The kid is driven and works too hard to be satisfied warming the bench. If Self needs to free up another scholarship, watch the way he treats White this year. If he continues to keep White off the floor (like against Duke), he’s probably pushing him toward the door.
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@JayHawkFanToo - right, Withey had to establish one year in residency to play at KU, which was from Dec/2008 - Dec/2009. He just hadn’t redshirted, so he was fine under the play 4 season in 5 seasons rule. He is in the exact same position as if CF decided to transfer.
@dylans - Yes, he would have to sit one full year due to the year in residency rule. If you’ve used your redshirt season, then it becomes more impractical to transfer the further along that you are (if you’re a redshirt junior, for example, you really couldn’t leave after that season as you’d be sitting your 5th and final season – you would have redshirted one of those 5). When you transfer, you have to sit a year unless you get a waiver (usually injury or coach related, or “circumstances” like Dixon from MU to Memphis).
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@HEM. You mean…being accused of sexual assault is worthy of a waiver?
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@HEM. Frankamp has been a lifetime Jayhawk fan and I just don’t see him transferring. Realistically, his chances of playing at the next level are limited; I see him being a valuable contributor in his junior and senior years, much like Tyrel Reed was.
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Wondering if anyone can recall a player that transferred from KU and became the star they thought they were going to be?
Anyone jump right of the page and make you ask, “Man how’d he get away?” ???
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@JRyman. It depends how you define star.
J.R. Giddens did very well at New Mexico and was a first round pick in the NBA draft. He played on and off for a couple of years in the NBA and is currently playing in Italy
David Paget played well at Louisville and played professionally briefly. He is now an assistant coach at IUPUI.
Micah Downs found success at Gonzaga and has played professionally overseas with a few stints in the NBA-D League where he performed well, but has not been able to hook up with a NBA team for other than Summer League play.
CJ Giles went to Oregon after being dismissed at KU and was let go from that team as well. He flirted with the NBA but nothing stuck. He is now playing in Bahrain. He is the one player that had a lot of potential but a bad attitude and discipline basically eliminated any chance he could have had.
These are the only players that come to mind.
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Another one of your knockout posts, HEM!
Am I mistaken… but doesn’t the “5 to accomplish 4” rule still exist? That’s the NCAA reg that says athletes have 5 years to use their 4 years of eligibility.
If that is the case… it dampens the possibilities of anyone who has already RS to transfer, because they will be sitting out their transfer year and burning a year of their eligibility.
I am bringing that up for several reasons. One… Lucas has served his RS. For the reasons stated above (if true) I find it unlikely he’ll transfer.
Second… (if true) this may be a big reason why Self didn’t RS anyone this year. Because one or more of those guys may transfer, and if they do, they can burn their extra “5 to make 4” year while sitting a year at another school.
So the big mistake is to hand out several RS, and then not do what you can to make that player the best he can be. Part of that would be giving him court time, the rest is making sure he’s been given all the development he can handle to help him beyond KU… maybe that means preparation for euro ball. Whatever.
For me, I think this is where I draw the line on how these players are treated. Don’t offer a guy a RS unless you see him fitting in for minutes down the road, or you can at least make it worthwhile for the player making that level of commitment to KU. It is Self’s job to win basketball games, not hold hands with players. If he has an opportunity to bring in better talent, he can do so, and probably should, because we can all be thankful for him potentially sacrificing getting better players to hold on to existing players because their are liked and it is in their best interest. But truth be told… if he does that, and we don’t bring home another NC, who will get the blame? Self.
I don’t question Self on this one. He’s proven over several years how he’ll do what he can to favor experience over potential… sometimes too much (in my books). I thought he should have give Perry more minutes last year in the early part of the year so he’d be seasoned for March…
I like the idea of recruiting Lyle because he isn’t a projected OAD. I like guys right below that in the 1 and 2 slots… especially at point. The question is if Lyle knows he’s not an OAD? And now we have a couple of true PGs on the team. Can Lyle be of that quality? Meaning… good ratio of Ass/TOs? I liked EJ, but I don’t want to see us recruit more of these tall, athletic guards that can’t provide us with enough of the right attributes. Self needs to diminish his earlier thoughts of going after generic “utility guards.” Can Lyle protect the rock? Can he attack the basket? Can he nail the 3? Can he create and feed for assists? Can he learn to defend? Does he possess good basketball IQ? Does he see the court well? Does he understand what the defense is giving him? Those are the types of questions you want answered when recruiting guards… more so than what his ESPN ranking is.
I follow his tweets and try to keep up with him on the net. He’s definitely a social media type guy, and I think that is the concern for CS in recruiting him. CS doesn’t like all the inner workings of KU basketball broadcast out to the world through the tinted glasses of the players, especially if the player feels like he isn’t getting enough court time. We’ve already been down this road and hit some bumps… like with Rio and some issues with TT.
These young players have to realize that their participation in social media can only hurt them at this point in their lives. It’s hard to be totally mature (and show it all the time) when you are only 18 yrs old. And if you are that mature, you probably don’t have time to have your hand held by people you don’t even know online.
Look at Traylor. That guy was given an opportunity at Kansas when probably he shouldn’t have. When he arrived in Lawrence, he was (at best) a D2 quality player. He took his RS (maybe by force of eligibility issues) and he has a great attitude and is earning some valuable PT. Self has said it several times that he isn’t going to let that guy leave Lawrence without the tools necessary to make a living in basketball. As we can see… he looks to be well on that path to building his profession beyond Lawrence!
I’m thinking Lucas sees what is happening with Traylor, and he likes what he sees!
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@JMamba5 is Jaqual lyle. Cliff Just tweeted this.
Cliff Alexander@humblekid116m @JMamba5 Come join the family bro rock chalk!!
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@HighEliteMajor…Okay now that my brain is mush from reading your eligibility post, I see that you hope Lucas stays. I’m with you. The videos I’ve seen of him I’m surprised he doesn’t get more pt. Am I missing something on his capabilities? What is your assessment?
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While none of us really want to see anyone transfer, Self will recruit the best players he can get even if he means he might lose someone to transfer. I don’t think coaches worry about such things…they know it will work out one way or another. If someone that they recruited to be a major contributor transfers because of playing time, it means the coach has better alternatives and he is alright with that. As it relates to Turner / Vaughn, if they wait until the spring, they /we will have a pretty good idea if Embiid and / or Selden will be gone. We / they won’t know for sure, but certainly it will be clearer than it is now. I think Traylor was a Division I player…he was recruited by several schools. He has high Division I athletic ability…his basketball skills just needed developing. Several schools saw that.
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I would think that if Lyle wants to come…Self would take him. He said, I believe, he would like to sign at least 3. The chances are that at least one of either Embiid or Selden leaves. Granted, if it is Embiid and not Selden, we would be heavy with wing players.
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@drgnslayr: On Lucas, I guess my logic on why a transfer would at least make sense, if he were considering it, is that the year he would “burn” sitting out – Dec/2013 to Dec/2014 – he’d be sitting the bench anyway here. Burning a year, so to speak. The key would be his possibilities to play here vs. another school starting the second half of next season. Will he get real playing time here? That’s the big question. And yes, the play 4 seasons in 5 seasons is at the heart of this. Tough decisions for kids when playing time is lacking.
@brooksmd: Tough to tell on Lucas. From what I’ve seen, I just see a guy who would be adequate right now. Pretty slow, doesn’t run the floor well (lumbering, maybe), ok shot, certainly not an athletic or “motor” guy. But still just a redshirt freshman. At the Oct. 19 scrimmage, nothing stood out to me as being a strength. It’s just very hard to tell with such a small sample size. That said, I’ve pretty much seen him as a guy that would contribute his junior and senior seasons. Perhaps rotation his junior season, and possible starter as a senior. Purely a developmental guy. But at the least, he’s emergency depth. It would be pretty cool to see him work hard and develop into a player. Lucas and his family may be looking long term – that being here, developing, is the best chance at a career. As opposed to instant playing time at, say, UTEP or Fresno St., or wherever. But the “instant” part of that equation gets removed each season that goes by. Lucas has a lot of time left.
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So, I’m convinced we haven’t offered Jaquan yet. Why? In essence we’d be choosing Lyle over Myles Turner. Turner’s a MUCH better prospect at a position of (possible) greater need. Not to mention the chatter that something significant happened (Academic? Behavioral?) to make Louisville pull their offer - not the other way around.
I just can’t see Self signing 4 kids unless 2 are in the late signing period - and then only if it’s clear any 2 of Selden, Embiid or Ellis (unlikely) are leaving. And since Turner’s not picking until the late signing period I can’t see Self possibly losing Turner by signing Lyle.
The questions that remain:
- Do we really want/need Lyle?
- Is Lyle wanting to come here bad enough to wait - possibly until the Spring?
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Wow. The Clones upset Michigan. Hilton Magic is tough. No sightings of Weatherwax storming the court to threaten anyone. Upper division of B12 is once again tough.
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More on Lucas:
You said it right, HEM, it’s a tough decision for kids when playing time is lacking.
I just think it is tough for a kid to lose a year where he can’t play. Even if he mostly rides the bench at Kansas, there is always the chance he sees significant PT, like if someone gets hurt or breaks one of the major team laws, etc etc. Or… the player steps it up a notch and just wins over some PT! I think that is what is on players’ minds most.
I would hope that CS made a mutual commitment with Lucas. Lucas has held up his end of the bargain, and I’m certain Self will, too. Doesn’t mean he’s guaranteed PT. No one gets that. But he is guaranteed a legitimate shot, and he’s given every development tool that the 5-star recruit receives… including individual help.
For most of these guys (at least, at the KU level) they want basketball in their future beyond Kansas basketball. There are many careers out there besides the NBA. Coaching, playing overseas, sports broadcasting, etc…
I think Self does a good job of helping these guys focus on a future. He definitely has sounded that way with Traylor, and I’m certain he gives all his guys that kind of attention. Self knows these kids are at a crossroads in their lives, and making the Kansas roster is an opportunity for all of them. Self would like all these guys to be successful and have a quality career so they can raise their families or accomplish whatever dream they have.
It’s possible Lucas could be better off only snagging mop up minutes at Kansas than playing for a lesser school and getting more court time. I’m not declaring that as some kind of fact, but that it is possible. It’s like asking: would you rather have your bachelor’s degree from Columbia, or your master’s degree from Whatchamacallit State?
Look at it this way… by the time Lucas leaves Lawrence, he will have spent 5 years of his life learning from one of the greats of basketball. I don’t know about any of you guys… but I’d sure like to have that on my resume!
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Are you referring to the same Weatherwax that stormed the court after coachSelf-Marvin or Melvin, the ISU booster? He looked like a real dweep & made me think of the proverbial guy with way too much money & not even remotely enough brains. LOL
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That’s the guy. Melvin. Dweeb is a good description. D.B. would be another.
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BTW: I noticed security pretty tight around CS at AFH this year. I wonder what he’ll have around him at ISU?
I’m pretty certain the B12 will be more involved with some security issues this year.
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@HEM: Three things are about all I know about BigBoreHunter Mickelson:
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He is an outdoorsman from Arkansas.
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Ranked decently in the 40-60 range out of high school (not sure, correct me if wrong…)–> significantly better ranking than Lucas…
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Havent seen him play at all.
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@ralster Hunter Mickelson is a Rivals 100th ranked player (17th in his position) out of high school.
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Getting back to the redshirt / transfer situation: I can’t find the link, but I think Coach Self has said in the past that he offers redshirts to players he thinks can help the team significantly down the road. He knows that redshirting basically removes transferring as an option.
I think he is aware that redshirting involves some level of mutual commitment. I don’t remember any redshirted player transferring later: anyone?
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As far a Jaquan Lyle, this link indicates Coach Howard watched him yesterday and that he won’t sign until the Spring:
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Updated Lyle info:
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Coach Howard did not watch him yesterday, but reports said that he would watch him later this week.
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Also reports are that he would set up an official visit to KU in the coming weeks.
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Lyle tweeted that he does have an offer from Kansas.
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I don’t think there’s any chance Lucas transfers. He was an unrated 3 star recruit who came to Kansas after his father and Bill Self had countless conversations about how he was going to develop Landen. While I’m sure he would very much like to get PT he came into the program knowing that it was going to be a process into his development. He has all the tools to be great but spent the majority of his life overseas not playing competitive basketball. I think he’ll have a career similar to Releford’s and I think the fact that he spent a year red shirting with Travis on the team shows him that, if Bill says to wait his time, his time will come.
The kid is a hard worker who chose to come to Kansas to be developed into the player his body will allow him to be. Could he transfer next year to a school like Cal or Stanford and play the following year? probably quite easily. But I think the reality of it is that he knows his best chance to get to the next level will be to stick it out with Self and bide his time. He may not see much PT next year but he would see 0 if he transferred.
You can’t teach Lucas’ body. He chose KU to develop him into a pro. He can transfer to a ho hum school and get all the playing time he wants but if that is what he was worried about he wouldn’t have signed with us in the first place.
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Iowa, I hope you are right about the Releford comment, but he did not come in as highly regarded as Travis. Travis became one of our main guys…I hope Lucas can do that but I see him being a complementary or role player as a junior or senior.
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Tarik Black is on the team as well. If I were Self I would say to Traylor, Landen, and Michelson that if they graduate and PT is still an issue they can do exactly What Black has done right? Correct me if I am wrong? They did attend classes during their RS year right? They should have the conditioning and training to do well at most schools.
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Great thread, HEM.
Is there pro hoops in Japan? I’m pretty sure. Lucas is fluent in Japanese (or close to fluent) having lived there growing up. Pro ball Japan isn’t a bad fall back option. I know the ladies there will dig him.
As for recent transfers…Doyle is tearing it up for Loyola. Merv isn’t doing much for New Mexico. Royce Woolridge is getting mad minutes for Wazzou but his A/TO isn’t that hot so far. Not sure about Adams.
If they’ve graduated after their 4th year Traylor, Lucas and Hunter could each transfer out for their “senior”/5th year without having to sit. It’s a good fall back position and they can cling to that if they are nervous during years 2-3, and it makes leaving between their 3rd and 4th years totally pointless. Correct me if I’m wrong about this.
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@JayDogger Lucas’s Japanese is leaving him, but would probably come back quickly. - LJW article plus my speculation.
You are correct about the transfer rule as it currently reads, but some (Bill included) would like to change the rule.
I’m for allowing a student who has taken care of their end of the bargain to be able to make their own decisions. Currently a university can cut ties with a student; a coach can bail on a contract with no repercussions; a student must give up 1-2 years of eligibility unless there is a hardship. With a hardship case the student may be denied the instant eligibility even with the coaches blessing (McKay).
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drgn, liked your post. But we cannot put EJ’s senior year’s FEW miscues in the way of Self 4yrs earlier trying to recruit a 5star 6’4 combo guard (EJ) with a pro body and pro hops, can we? I personally waited ever since 2008 (when Chalmers+RussRob took us all the way) to see 2 athletic, above-the-rim/explosive type guards come back in our lineup…and Tyshawn + EJ (as a 2guard) proved my wait by taking us all the way to the champ game. Nobody knew that EJ would have his best season as a junior, as the 2guard. Although his 39pt anomaly game vs. IowaSt is one for the ages, probably the highest score by a Self guard at KU. Ever.
Let me state my perspective another way: I will always be a BIG fan of EJ’s love of KU and his sweat and pain in our uniform x 4yrs. He does have some mental harness-the-aggression things to work on, which is all that stands in his way. 4 yrs vs a bad few minutes in a game? Not even close. I wont throw Sherron under the bus for a bad shooting night vs. UNI, or Reed+Markieff for VCU, or Collison+Langford for Syracuse '03…so why blast on EJ? I sure dont want to sound like bitter IowaState fans…
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I will always be a BIG fan of EJ’s love of KU and his sweat and pain in our uniform x 4yrs.
I have to agree. The Michigan game pains me, but my favorite EJ moment was in the tournament about a year earlier against Purdue when TT and EJ connected for an unbelievable fast break/lob/jam that basically determined a game we easily could have lost. After the game, EJ was interviewed and was asked about why he didn’t do more of that during the game and he just said, “I’m still learning, man. I’m learning.”
Through that interview, you could tell he was marveling about how the game turned out… happy and relieved. And what came through was that he was trying his best on every play, but it didn’t always work out.
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Hey Ralster… I should have worded my post differently.
After your post I went back and read it again. It sounds a bit like I’m bagging on EJ. I’m an EJ fan, too… mostly because he made the ultimate sacrifice of playing out of his position for the good of the team. It didn’t prove to help us, but I don’t blame him for that. He didn’t have the right skill set to be a PG. He should have always stayed a 2.
I should have stated that if CS wants to recruit guards that can play at both the 1 and the 2, make sure the guards have the skills required to play the 1. It doesn’t work the other way around. You have to have a guard who protects the rock well, both by dribble and pass… someone who can see the defense and take advantage of what it is given… be able and willing to penetrate… control tempo… find the gaps… etc etc. I guess Mason was a 2 in HS… but he’s a natural PG. With just a few games under his belt, we can see that he has so much to offer at point. He’s a x-axis player… low to the ground, lots of lateral movement and looking for spacing advantages. I don’t think these gifts are easy to teach players, because we certainly don’t see many using these skills. It always seems tougher to develop x-axis skills for bigger guards. Maybe because they have always played looking for a vertical game… their size helps them in some ways, but they don’t develop the bulldog tenacity some of the little guards have… who will find gaps, and if they don’t see one maybe they create one!
Tharpe is the perfect example of a PG who can play the 2. We can count on seeing him score some minutes at the 2 this year.
