Deja Vu All Over Again -- Red Pill Anyone?
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@ralster @Lulufulu - I’m running with work today but saw the inversion item … yes, WSU does invert their guards/wings by flashing and posting up. What I saw a number of times was Cotton, Baker, and/or Wessel flash across mid to upper lane, or go to the block for a quick look, and then, move out. They did this regularly all season. They don’t invert their post players. We posted up Selden once the entire season (vs. OSU). I do not recall another time where we even attempted to post up perimeter player.
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@jaybate-1.0 Hmmmm, fascinating. No doubt the treys werent falling for KU that night. I sincerely hope that bloody nose Perry got was not on purpose. It didnt look like it was on purpose. Would WSU’s coach purposely tell his player to bash in Perry’s face, risking concussion and other more serious injury? Would he stoop that low? That would just be some low thuggish Cincinnati type stuff there.
Completely off topic, On the fair to decent chance that WSU plays Kensucky in the elite 8, I hope they do that very thing. Im actually going to hope WSU makes it to that game. I think they have a good chance to beat the Irish to win a match up with UK. Then thug ball it like mad, like they did against KU. Man, I would like to see that. Even if they dont win, they can hurt those younger less experienced UK players, making a loss in the final four even more likely for UK.
My end game here now that KU is out, is to see Kensucky get beat. They must not go 40-0
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@HighEliteMajor Wish you could get in Coach Self’s ear about not being so GD stubborn. After the game, I thought to myself, “Did he just get out coached?” I guess we know the answer. Self is a great coach, is a future hall of fame coach. But, does he have to learn to be more fluid with his in game adjustments? Can he learn to? I mean, here we have one of the best active coaches in the game and he gets his rear end handed to him by a mid major!? Again!? He has a greater than 80% win-loss record and his tourney record has got to be near .500. I mean, its just ridiculous. He has won the Big 12 eleven times in a row and most likely will get his 12th, which is a great accomplishment btw, but he gets bounced twice in a row after the first game of the tourney. What the hell? I mean, if this isnt a wake up call for Coach Self to learn to be more like Bruce Lee in his in game strategies, then I don’t know.
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@ParisHawk Why jump to the conclusion that anyone should be banned if they call for the coach to be fired? What do think that posters on sites dedicated to teams with 6 and 20 seasons do? They think that the coach is unable to win and they call for a new coach. When we get 10 point lists after 8 point lists after 6 point lists pointing out how a coach should change most of what he does including his assistants then what is wrong with calling for a new coach.
People can discuss anything that you want within the bounds of propriety . Based upon my post why did you jump to the conclusion that I was referring to HEM? I replied to Slayr and my main point dealt with the need for continuity. However, if a coach has to change his basic philosophy to win and he maintains that philosophy then why would you want him as the coach?
Lastly, what did my post have to do with the definition of terms? This isn’t high school debate where the side that defines the terms usually wins. What is so illogical about the position that if you think that a person cannot do his job he should be let go?
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Way to dig into the issue!!!
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@ralster Thanks for mentioning Izzo. “What are doing?” was exactly the question he asked one of his starters during the Virginia game when they took a bad shot shortly into the shot clock. What a horrid motivator.
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“Some have posted that he is great defender on the ball - he is not.”
Thank you very much. When he backpedals against the driver he is constantly switching his forward foot depending on which hand the driver is using & plays in way too tight. Here’s where the hand checks are important but to only measure the distance to step in should he pick up the dribble. Wayne plays so close in, that when the driver gets past his front foot, zip…he’s gone & Selden’s beat. Time after time after time I marveled at his worst case scenario for on ball defense. You must at least try to keep feet squared & body dead in front of the driver. When the guy dribbles off a hip Wayne is simply lost. And it negates any quickness he may have & makes def switches a fact of life. He thens swats in the breeze as his guy goes by & the only way he can recover is to foul. That’s def BB 101 & it’s supposed to be 300 level for a Jr next year. Barring a near miracle, he is likely our starter again next year at the 2. DG’s ball defense already has surpassed him & without the occasional freak athletic block, dive for a loose ball, or flush, would likely be getting more pine time than he already does, or should I say he deserves. Of course this is JMO.
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I sincerely hope not too, but…
Remember: KU pulling away after 7 fouls called on KU and 1 called on WSU.
A chance to get to the Sweet 16 maybe slipping away.
Playing a team with probably more OADs and 5 stars and reputed depth than WSU had. Playing a team with better three point shooting and a tenacious defense that could be very tough to come back against. Playing a team with a point guard that is keeping up with your star player–a point guard.
Remember: Self calls the stretch 4 the toughest player to guard in college basketball.
Perry is a stretch 4 and he scored 17 and 9 playing with a recently elbow-smashed nose and some apparent possible fogginess.
Imagine what Perry might have scored and rebounded had he been able to breath freely through a nose without probable swelling and inflamation from a recent elbow smash so hard that he had to be lead to the locker room for treatment. Imagine what he might have done had he been able to act and react without any apparent possible fogginess, and had no recently bloodied nose to protect.
Imagine if instead of leaving the game injured, Perry had stayed in the game and KU had continued to pull away from WSU to say, 10 points, or even 15 points by half time, before WSU could get into half time and try to adjust.
That replay was something.
Perry appearing to be leaning back some, face completely unprotected.
Right, and then toward the nose with the elbow.
I sincerely want to believe, too, but…
It appeared a complicated context and moment IMHO, that I wonder if the refs saw clearly than the replay?
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@globaljaybird Much more detailed explanation of my superficial reference - and, spot on. I don’t think any of our guys have especially good positioning and footwork on D - good balance, lower the center of gravity, slide instead of crossing over to chase, cutting off passing lanes. Selden, Traylor and Greene are the worst with basic positioning and footwork. Mason is okay and as you note, Graham is very solid. I actually liked what I saw of Svi - he just needs to get stronger. Wigs was really good at keeping guys in front of him - and, of course, could go high to block if someone did beat him, rather than swiping down as every one else does. And, I also don’t understand why Self continues to give him 30 minutes a game - he sees something different than you and I do…
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@jaybate-1.0 Yes, the replay was something. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t a flagrant. It wasn’t nearly this bad, but it reminded me of Coach K’s goon, Gerald Henderson:
That one was called a flagrant. In our case it was an offensive player who did the thuggery, and that is the only possible excuse I can come up with as to why they didn’t call it a flagrant.
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@ralster gotta agree with you here, wholeheartedly. I think HCBS got out-coached by the oil man but I’m really not buying this turmoil in the locker room hypothesis. Coach Self is a tough but fair man and I do believe the guys all see this and know that when it comes to basketball and life in general, Bill knows best. He’s an intelligent, charismatic guy and I believe he cares about all of them like crazy and I think the guys reflect that in the post-game interviews and through their demeanor even after a crushing loss such as the one to WSU. He’s the leader and to read into his remarks during a heated timeout is to me absurd. Leaders lead, he’s the coach and they’re the young men that play for him. He is not in the throws of a meltdown because he questions his guy’s performance in the moments of a game. Notice his demeanor when he knows these guys are rattled; he smiles and tells them to relax and get it together. He’s not perfect on the sidelines, but I think he’s a great influence on them on and off the court.
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@jaybate-1.0 Its interesting to see what our fellow jhawks here think of that wry smile from Self, late in the game. Personally, I took it as him trying to calm the team (as opposed to the red-face MasterHawk)–> because he knew they were 3-4 ways broke, & had lost their poise. Maybe he’s seen enough ball & knows his guys well enough to know its over? Just a possibility.
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I may post this quote repeatedly. Here is the first time. Tom Izzo, on Friday -
“I don’t know if it’s validation,” Izzo added. “It’s just you do what you have to do. There’s a lot of different ways to win. I think a lot of coaches have done it different ways. One of the biggest ways is you’d better adjust to the talent you have and play somewhat within your own system because you don’t want to change everything.”
This seems like the perfect balance.
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Lets face the reality that college basketball is changing in leaps and bounds. It was not uncommon for the game to change a little here and a little there. A new rule change, a new offense scheme. A new rising coach. Yet there was always a balance, a snap back to the old tried and true of how the game was recruited, coached, and played. Yet Everything has changed.
With the NBA’s hunger and willingness to gamble and throw large amounts of money at unproven players for the mere upside of their potential. Young boys or men have no choice but to forgo an education and take the money that is being forced in to their wallets and bank accounts. Yes the game has changed and is still changing.
In this regard I feel sad for the game and our beloved HCBS. You see the game has changed so much that system schools and system coaches are falling by the wayside. They are becoming casualties of the new area. One of the hardest things to do in one’s life is to change something that has made them who they are. When a person has had mega success it’s a hard pill to swallow and accept it’s time to change.
A system can be a great thing, yet like most things it can and does hinder your growth, and ability to change when it’s need is apparent. The last two years have shown that the need for change is apparent in KU land. How the game is played is different, the types of players that are recruited has changed, how the game is coached has changed. This is just a reality. I just hope HCBS can make the changes. He needs to break away from the tried and true and reinvent himself.
Two points to prove why HCBS needs to change.
Last years team. Remember it? Oozed with mega talent. HCBS made a big mistake. In so many ways but not all. HCBS had the players to run is tried and true patented High/Low. KU finally had a true guard that could take over a game in Wiggins. Yet what had HCBS licking his chops was Embiid. Having a big that can run, jump, block, dunk, fly, and just about everything else is a high/low dream. That was the downfall. Even HCBS said himself I was waiting and hoping he would come back when Embiid went down. The reality is HCBS found is dream big for his system and he pounded him into the ground. Not only hurting Embiid but also stunting the growth of the rest of the team. As the offense play was go inside boys.
This years team had no real big that could make the High/low work. No not even Ellis. Think about Ellis under the Mayor at Iowa St? Are you starting to see my point? HCBS stayed true to himself, and tried to make Ellis the focus of his high/low offense. Ignoring even his own revelation that this years team was the best shooting team he has ever had. The results? Ellis like Embiid got pounded into the ground, and finished the season injured. The worst part is the rest of team’s overall growth was stunted again.
Bottom line is if you’re going to play a system, then you recruit to that system and understand you will get beat by pure talent. Yet if you going to play this new game and recruit the OAD’s then you have to develop a system to play to your strengths. Even if it means reinventing the wheel ever year.
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@DoubleDD I have to agree with much of what you said. Especially the part of about recruiting to your system. I do not agree that last years team oozed with mega talent. It oozed with mega potential. Wigs was an outstanding athlete and he brought very good one on one defensive skills unknown to most freshmen. How much time was spent discussing how he could not finish? He was also not dissimilar to Kelly this year. Great one minute and Caspars ghost the next. His takeover game was at the end of the year. Would we have been better to give him the ball at the start of the season and say “go getem”?
Selden was supposed to drive to the basket and be an excellent defender. I remember how the same crowd on the other site were giddy with anticipation about what he would do to Marcus Smart. Hasn’t worked quite like that. Part of the problem may be HCBS, but a good part has to do with the grass and the other side of the fence.
Other than UK and Duke, what other teams have had OADs take them to the promised land? Generally what you see are coaches that run their systems whatever they are. If things go really bad in a game they may hand the ball to whomever their best player is and try to ride him. That usually ends in defeat. How have coach K, Izzo, Pitino, Ryan, etc. changed their games? Other than a tweak here of there I don’t see it.
A few years ago everyone here saw Shaka Smart was the next great coach to turn the game around. Since his teams are good but not great.
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@DoubleDD Absolutely agree with you that if you are going to stick to a system, then it is better to recruit to fit the system. However, I disagree that the system schools and coaches are falling by the wayside. Izzo is definitely a system coach, who has made relatively minor concessions to allow some additional freedom to his better guards, and just made his umpteenth E8. Pitino consistently wins without elite talent. Ryan is a system coach and has had continued success. I would also partially disagree with the statement that if you play a system you will get beat by pure talent. Capable, veteran teams (with emphasis on team) routinely beat teams with more talent. An overwhelming talent advantage, however, is likely to prevail much more often than not - certainly the case with UK this year, and Duke and Arizona also have multiple elite players. Interesting that you have 3 schools in the E8 that are all in on chasing OADs and 3 that classic “system” coaches/teams.
It appears that Self is trying to play it both ways, and we’ve seen how that has played out the past couple of years…
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I’m not saying that a system school or coach can’t make some noise, but as I’ve heard all year it’s all about the tournament. Yes these system schools can make some noise, but be honest do you see either Duke, UK, or AZ not winning this thing? That’s point.
If HCBS wants to play his system, then I’m on board. Yet lets get out of this OAD recruiting nightmare we are in, and recruit to the system. Losing sucks but it sucks even worse when you know you’re the better team. It’s like you left something on the table. Not a good feeling.
However if HCBS is going to chase and recruit these OAD’s, then he needs to reinvent himself, and not be so stubborn and loyal to what got him here. Believe me I want HCBS to be the next legend of KU basketball. I really do.
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@DoubleDD said:
Bottom line is if you’re going to play a system, then you recruit to that system and understand you will get beat by pure talent. Yet if you going to play this new game and recruit the OAD’s then you have to develop a system to play to your strengths. Even if it means reinventing the wheel ever year.
This is brilliant.
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@HighEliteMajor Why is “recruit to that system and understand you will get beat by pure talent” brilliant when when it is blatantly wrong? We have gone over and over that the best team does not always win the NC (and that’s all that counts). By the way, talent means more than dunks and threes. Sometimes it even involves defense. Now if a team is the most talented it does have a very good chance of winning.
AZ just got toasted by a system team. When did Duke drop from the ranks of a system team. They run basically the same offense and defense that Coach K has always run. Now that system involves shooting many more threes than does KU but who really thinks that he rolls the ball on the court and has everybody do their own thing. You may want KU to use the Duke system but that’s a different story.
Even UK hasn’t done much with only OADs. They have had more experience in 2012 and this year then they did last year.
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@sfbahawk You are right. I perhaps misinterpreted that first sentence. Change “will” to “may” and I’m good with that. How about the rest of it being brilliant?
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I wouldn’t try to defend my comment as brilliant in anyway fashion or form. However you opened up a whole different can of worms. As Duke seems to be your line of defense. Lets break it down. Shall we?
Coach K is a brilliant coach and I would agree that he runs a system of offense. Yet he doesn’t and isn’t so boneheaded to run every thing through the bigs. His offense scheme actually values the three and has set plays to shoot the three. Hence why he has tied the Wizard for the most Final 4 appearances. I have had the chance to watch Duke play and Coach K coach his teams over the years. As much as I hate Duke and Coach K I’m always amazed how he can change is form of attack in the middle of the game. He doesn’t just stick to the tried and true. He understands what isn’t working and what is, Then he makes adjustments.
Ask yourself this question? Why does Coach K always get considered for NBA jobs and HCBS never does? Now thats not me just trying to prove a point. HCBS himself has said he would be interested in the NBA game, but really never has any offers. So why is it that? I’m guessing it’s because he’s a system coach. In the NBA a teams roster can be changed or altered from year to year, and HC needs to adapt to the talent he has. Every notice when an NBA team talks about rebuilding they never talk about learning a system? Nope it’s about stock piling talent.
Maybe I’m being a bit extreme when I say pure talent will always beat a system, but man I’m not far off. The proof is in the pudding ask yourself this question? How many times has KU lost to a system coached team? Not very many. It usually some player with pure talent going off, or taking over the game
One last thing I’m not against a system run team. Hey bring it on. HCBS has done pretty well, but don’t go after OAD talent and then just have them pound the ball inside all day. It’s a waste of talent, and it drives me nuts.
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@DoubleDD I keep telling myself not to do this but I always do. So Duke doesn’t run its offense through the bigs and because of this Coach K is not a bonehead. The implication is that since Self does run most of his offense inside/out he is a bonehead. KU has a boneheaded coach. Why do you want KU to have a bonehead for a coach? By the way, Self has actually beaten Coach K. How could that possibly happen? How did Duke lose to Mercer last year? Coach K must have been unable to adjust to what Mercer threw at them.
Why do the color analysts always talk about having to work the ball inside/out. They are obviously boneheads too. My God the world is filled with boneheads.
Name 2 successful college coaches that have moved to the NBA and have been successful. I ask for 2 because I can’t think of 1 but then my memory isn’t what it used to be and I may have forgotten the 1. What was the last NBA job that Coach K was considered for? In fact, since he is always considered how about only 3. Coaching in college and in the NBA are a lot different. College coaches work within programs where the talent turns over constantly as people graduate and/or turn pro. Continuity is worth a lot in those cases. In the NBA there aren’t any coaches who make more money then their best players. The game is faster and everyone who is there has been through a filter which discards all but the very best. Not even UK has that. Coaching in the NBA is not an Xs and Os game. It is mainly one of managing egos. Most NBA coaches are former players or assistants who have had no college coaching experience.
Speaking of the lack of system in the NBA. Other than winning all of those championships what is Phil Jackson known for? I guess the answer can’t be the triangle offense because that would be a system and no successful NBA coach runs one. The real answer must be zen.
I have nothing against shooting threes. I have nothing against scheming to shoot threes. What I do have a problem with is the statement that Self does not like threes, doesn’t have plays to get them and is unable to adjust. What Self does not like, along with most other coaches, is bad threes. Self has stated that he doesn’t think that a three is bad because the shooter misses. His statement is that a three is good or bad the second it leaves the shooter’s hand. He does pull people who take threes when they should not. One of the boneheaded color analysts said yesterday that making a stupid play will get players a seat on the bench and that being pulled makes an impression on players because they want to be on the court.
How was Bill Self able to acquire his rather gaudy record at 4 schools with his total inability to make adjustments? That must be because the ranks of college coaches are populated by people even more boneheaded than he. Or not.
The fact that KU has lost to teams where some player goes off proves absolutely nothing. When that happens it is usually because said player shoots waaaay over his average. Most of the time that was done within a system with the coach deciding to ride the hot hand.
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Whoa I didn’t mean to upset you. Not my intentions.
Um Coach K has been considered for many NBA HC jobs. After all he does coach the Olympic team. He just has no desire. Why be a great in the NBA when you can be a legend at Duke after all the money is about the same?
The triangle offense? So you think Phil Jackson won all those championships because of the Triangle offense? It had nothing to do with Jordan or Kobe the two best players in the game over the last 20 years? I’m sorry I just don’t buy that one at all. No Bulls fan or Lakers fans that I’ve ever ran across said hey we won those championships because of the triangle offense. However again I think you missed my point I’m not against a system of offense. Not sure why you think I believe KU should just come down and chuck threes? The thing is you’re kind of proving my point. the triangle offense is mostly about getting the ball in your best players hands. Hence the most talented players. Am I wrong?
I’m sorry I offended you when I called HCBS a bonehead. I personally love the guy and hope for the best. However KU makes big money off it’s fans. This isn’t like fifty years ago when it wasn’t necessarily about winning but playing the game right. You force me as a fan to buy special packages just to watch KU then I’m going to speak my mind if I think things are going a wry. Wrong or right I will speak my mind. After all I’m picking up part of the bill just to watch.
Hey upsets happen as you said once before the tournament can be a crap shoot. However it seems to me KU has been exiting the tournament a little to early under HCBS’s watch. How many times has KU been a 1 or 2 seed and does nothing in the tournament? Look I get the love for HCBS I really do but at some point you have say hey what’s going on here.
My biggest beef with HCBS is he can’t make up his mind. Maybe he doesn’t have a choice? However he wants to play his system no matter what then recruit the types of players that can play the system. Yet he recruits all these great players and doesn’t even really scheme to use their talent. It’s all about pounding the ball inside. To me that’s a waste. You play to your strengths or you go home in the tournament.
It seems KU has been going home a lot here lately.
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1 - Larry Brown 2 - X
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BTW we recruited all 3 of Duke’s star freshman all the way to the end. Winslow was high on KU, even wore a KU jersey or shirt one day?Watching his game, elite defender and aggressive driving to the hoop, he would have been great in a KU uniform as well.
Jones & Okafor we were runner-ups to… We got Kelly & Cliff, 1 of 2 worked out. Devonte & Svi will really help us this year which depending how you look at it could benefit us more because all 3 likely to leave Duke this year.
Can’t fault Self’s recruiting, he recruited and got 2 top 15 kids maybe just not the right one’s this year. What can ya do?
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@BeddieKU23 said:
What can ya do?
Win some games in March.
That’s why kids choose Duke/Kentucky - whomever over us. They want a legit chance to go to the Final Four and to play for the National Championship.
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Just a couple years back though we had all the March Success. A bitter Sweet 16 loss, and 2 even bitter 2nd round losses really make us forget how good we had it. UK was in the NIT 2 years ago, last year needed a miracle turnaround to get where they got.
The pressure will be on next year to win in March that’s for sure but we are certainly due for some luck to come our way real soon.
