Deja Vu All Over Again -- Red Pill Anyone?
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@BeddieKU23 I think Self would have been able to do a lot more with Turner than Barnes did. 1. KU desperately needed a shot blocker inside while TX already had 3. 2. Turner would have been one of the few players who could score b2b type buckets. If he could have learned to seal and score with angles (which Self teaches better than Barnes) he could have been at least a 10 pts 7 rbs 2 blk a game kinda guy. I was impressed with Turner, but not the way he was used. I completely forgot about the fact that we just missed him too!
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" Speaking of Tarik Black, originally a top50 recruit, he fit the mold perfectly for a Self bigman…imagine that kid at KU x 4yrs!"
I understand your post. There wasn’t anyone out there that could exactly replace JoJo. Myles would have been nice and better than nothing.
But we out-spend all D1 teams in the nation in recruiting! I see several teams with big men that do a good job. Maybe these guys weren’t top 10 recruits. But they at least hold down the fort. We still had a scholarship to give last year, actually 2 because we added Svi late. We wasted a slot on this team. We can look at it all like it was a last second loss of Myles… but we should have already scored a backup. There must be at least 50 reasonable big 5s in D1 out there. How do other teams land 5s when they spend a lot less on recruiting and aren’t even a blue blood?
Look at our assistant coaches. None of those guys are sitting on the bench because they are known as great developers. All those guys have a job because they are supposed to be big recruiters. So how can we ever be without at least a decent 5? There is no excuse. If this was a business, I’d be firing a lot of people for such failure.
Tar was a great catch… but the only reason we got him was on a fluke. Same with Mickelson.
Think about it. We are one of the best bball programs in America. Great resources. Reputation for putting guys in the league. Previously, had a reputation for developing bigs. Largest recruiting budget in America. One of the best strength and conditioning programs. And we are waiting in late spring to possibly sign our only real 5? That is pathetic.
I’m not saying we don’t continue to go for the elite 5 players. I’m just saying we should have already signed a backup. Kentucky only has 3 backup 5s (and still signed the elite 5).
There is some monumental recruiting underachieving going on here.
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@HighEliteMajor Im on #7 and I have a question. Are we going to get a different assistant head coach any time soon? I agree, I think we need someone better. I have no data to support this opinion but I think we have taken a dip offensively since Manning left.
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@HighEliteMajor Frank Mason had a pretty good game but, WSU’s PG had just as impressive a stat line and he didnt foul out of the game. Is that part of how WSU inverted? By posting their guards?
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I had forgotten as well until I went back and looked at the Top 100 and remembered we were after the 2 top fish and missed both. We might have gotten more production out of him you never know. I didn’t see a consistent motor in him which I think hindered his overall production at Texas. I thought he settled too much for the pretty shot instead of trying to bang it inside with his size. But he’s mimicked his game after Durant in some ways so a true b2b game is probably something he’ll learn in the NBA.
I guess the silver lining is that Lucas got time to develop. If Self and assistants can work magic with his post game and get him stronger he can be a serviceable big. Unless Self gets a 5star big he’s going to start Lucas he loves that kid.
Last 8 games for Lucas with 20+ minutes a game yielded 6.4 pt’s 7.3 rb’s 1.1 blk’s per game. Another summer of development and with Hudy and your talking the possibility he could average around a double/double.
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@jaybate-1.0 Solid point here. We are going to have most, if not all of our same guys back next season and possibly the next one after that. Coach Self knows this and just maybe he is thinking to the future. I mean, I hope he is. I agree with @HighEliteMajor that Coach Self got his ass kicked vs WSU. He didnt make hardly any adjustments in game to give us a better shot at winning. Why would he do that? Why would he be so single minded and stubborn? Why would he basically toss a game in which a sweet 16 was at stake? It makes no sense to me at all.
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@drgnslayr “Where we really goof is at the 2. I love Wayne Selden…”
If all the eggs are in one basket, this is what happens when one is not hard boiled.
How many time do we hear the saying “Good guard” play wins in March? DG was just a freshman but I am so appalled with Waynes def footwork that to me, it simply was worth the tradeoff to play Graham. At least he can shoot & handle the rock & not make worse decisions when driving the paint .He’s an athletic wonder for sure, but did I cover most of, if not all Wayne’s failures? Going forward I think we’re set well with FM & DG, but deficiency at the 5 will be glaring again next year without a complete metamorphosis from LL, HM. or a polished blue chip big. How many of those turn up as freshmen? Not very many IMO. So we may not see much difference in the team unless. Don’t get me wrong, this was a great season like last. Another BG 12 Championship is damn high on this list, but another premature loss in March again has me wanting more, more, more… And on a personal note it is my opinion that Bill should replace Mr Snacks with a coach that is proficient in offensive X’s & O’s & not one who forgets to inform the boss when he gets a traffic summons for carrying a hundred foot spool of rope in the trunk, OR another dose of the munchies. No malice, JMO.
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Ok, different concept here, alluding to past points HEM has made regarding “square pegs/round holes”. Why is Self wrong to expect his players to conform to his tested/proven mold? I mean for this to be a philosophical point, but I guarantee it played out in real life. I mean he recruited these kids-- they FULLY knew what they were getting, & Self’s expectations! How about holding the players responsible for their performance? Self= the teacher, what grade would he assign each of these college kids?
Regarding the “what are you doing?!” quote from a pissed off Self in the timeout–> OMG, are we really going to react to that as if its “the last straw” by abusive Bobby Knight? If someone is saying that quote shows some “disconnect” between coach & team, then I’d say you’re exactly right, but what kind of damn coach would let 18-19 yr olds decide their own way??? Man, thats 180deg backwards! Kids proved their way is soft & got themselves & their fans a big fat L.
Players are recruited to play the coach’s way. Maverick players better learn what works in a given system, or ride pine, or transfer out & go elsewhere. This is NOT Micah Downs/JRGiddens/Padgett redux–those kids didnt want to play Self’s way, they hurt their teams by not contributing. Langford & Simien resisted Self, years later Langford publiclly told Jayhawk nation that his team were “wrong to fight Self. He was correct”. Humph! Young men and their learning processes…!
It almost smacks of “desperate to throw darts” when we start taking heated coach sideline soundbites and try to spin beyond Self’s coaching moment context. Did anyone see the Laettner 30-for-30 piece? Laettner does another of his patented bonehead behaviors, and Krzyzewski asks if he’s “lost your mind?” & “what are you doing?” Sheesh, was that ‘symbolic of coach disconnect’, or a coach being The Coach in a needed moment?
Hey, Self, Roy, Izzo, K, none are perfect, all have flaws, but since WHEN do any of these guys let their players “decide” how our playstyle should be? And its just insulting all around to say top coaches dont adjust to their personnel…you give Hoiberg or Self or Izzo that Okafor kid, they’ll use him. They arent dummies. Greene rode pine because he’s stubborn, Machiavellian type…but his postgame comments were beautifully put, calm, and 100% echoed Self’s. He said he loved his team, loved this year, but they know they have work to do to out-execute the opponent. My hopes for BG skyrocketed at that moment.
People want to say Self “lost” his team simply need to see The Bruce Webber Experience.
Print a glossy of Bill Self & print it BIG, tack it to wall, because I know its easy to throw darts at someone/something…but that is ignoring the reality of the specific issues THIS team has to address in the offseason.
Why cannot people make the easy connection between the last 2 KU teams being the youngest teams Self has ever had, & the cant-trust-em season long rollercoaster quality of play we saw BOTH seasons–do we smell the common denominator? And what would past Self players say about these last 2yrs teams? Well, the current ku players have spoken, and they completely agreed with their coach. There is no disconnect, NOR can there allowed to be one.
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@Lulufulu No, wsu did not invert their guards. KU’s truly awful ball screen D allowed uncontested open-look 3s. They beat us with elements of our own offense. KU turnovers a factor also.
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@ralster " How about holding the players responsible for their performance? Self= the teacher, what grade would he assign each of these college kids?
People want to say Self “lost” his team simply need to see The Bruce Webber Experience.
Print a glossy of Bill Self & print it BIG, tack it to wall, because I know its easy to throw darts at someone/something…but that is ignoring the reality of the specific issues THIS team has to address in the offseason."
PHOF !! "
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@ParisHawk said:
I know you, you know me: one thing I can tell you is we got to shoot threes
That’s pretty good
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I agree that Self and his team got their asses kicked and one of their noses smashed.
I disagree that there was much Self could do about it after the nose was smashed.
The team was pulling away after the asymmetric foul calling.
No matter what one concludes speculatively about the motivation of the elbow smash of Perry Ellis by Fred VanVleet, the result of the elbow smash of Perry Ellis was to sideline our best player, and a player they could not guard very well, and sent him to the locker room at the moment KU was starting recover from the absurdly one sided foul calling to start the game to pull away from WSU.
Now, put yourself in in Self’s position on the bench at that moment.
The team’s scheme was BAD BALL.
BAD BALL tries to attack from the guards and wings while running the stuff. It usually samples a couple treys early to see if anyone is hitting. If that doesn’t work, Bad Ball tries to attack from the bigs pulled out. If that doesn’t work Bad Ball spreads it to four corners and attacks from the point guard. If that doesn’t work, Bad Ball stays spread, and starts attacking from the stretch 4. Self tries to proceed through this cascade one before the 10 minute mark to see which options work the best against what the opponent is taking away defensively, and then the second ten minutes of the half, focuses in on what worked best and begins to attack that way.
Self probably noticed by that time that Selden, for whatever reason was just not a factor. Self was proceeding through the cascade,when Ellis got the elbow smash that sent him to the locker room. He appeared at the point ready to try to play through Perry, having found the early options of the cascade working some, Selden being a no show, and the sample treys not falling.
Out goes Perry.
Who does he turn to?
If I recall correctly he defaulted to Oubre at that time, but Oubre was getting man handled by Cotton every time he got a touch. Kelly was completely out of his comfort zone.
If I recall correctly, Self next went to Frank to drive it, and also to try a trey or two.
Frank did okay for awhile, then tired, then Self brought Devonte to try to get something out of the two where Selden was a walking 0 place holder.
Devonte gave some spark on defense, but Devonte could not hit the broad side of a barn from 3, then was erratic inside also. WSU plays high contact, lane jumping defense and they are very good at it. The point of driving on them is to eliminate the passing offense they like to lane jump on.
So: its back to Frank, with a brief test of Landen inside. But Landen is completely overwhelmed with the intensity of the contact and double teaming and instead of turning to the rim to try to draw contact on his shots he does running jump hooks away from the pressure and neither hits anything, nor gets fouled.
He also gives Brannen a try and Brannen makes nothing from trey.
He goes back to Oubre, who is in the early stages of going 3-9.
Self realizes they cannot win the half without Perry, and when Perry gets back he realizes that Perry is woozy and has a tender nose and blocked sinuses from the swelling and the bloody noses. Playing through Perry more than intermittently is not going to happen. He is not mentally sharp, he will be playing to keep his nose from getting smashed again, and his cardiovascular will suck because of the obstructed breathing.
Self decides that to play it close to the vest the rest of the half to keep the game from getting away from them the first half. He starts going inside to Perry and driving Frank and using Devonte, when Frank begins to tire. The idea is to foul them up, keep the possessions low, guard hard, and hope to go into half even or a little down, then regroup at half time, get Perry rested, maybe figure out some action for Wayne, hope Frank’s right leg holds up, and come back out after halftime, brace for the onslaught of energy and contact by WSU, kind of rope-a-dope, then try to shoot the trey, and play through Perry to get a lead that can be defended.
They didn’t hit the treys.
Perry did okay for awhile, but was never well enough to go on a one man tear.
Wayne went to absolute zero.
Oubre wound up being horse whipped by Cotton, until Kelly was like a tall, skinny AAU player from the suburbs on a Rucker League game in Bed Stuy. Kelly was out of his depth in the hard knock game.
Self threw one legged Traylor into the game at times, but this game Traylor could barely even clear the floor, so while he could guard a bit, and shove enough to get 5 boards in seven minutes, he was in no position to stop any of WSU’s short, brawny, Rico Gathers style bigs. Traylor, who is not a stick, looked like one out there.
Self saw the way his strongest bigs were being mauled and shoved around, so Self decided that putting Mickelson in, while it might buy a block or two, would probably buy Mikelson a night in the hospital, if he actually did get a block.
This was a very, very, very serious and tough WSU basketball team that was going to take no prisoners the entire game.
If an opponent does not come at WSU the same way, the opponent is in grave danger of cracking eventually; this is what happened.
Why didn’t Self retaliate for the elbow smash the first half to keep WSU from getting so bold?
The answer to that is not pretty, but it is increasingly obvious to me.
Remember that Tom Izzo is one of the toughest customers that ever walked the side lines, and really knows no limits to the rough stuff he will pull when he has the kind of players to play that way. Well, when Izzo has not had those kinds of players, Izzo has not played that way. Same with Bob Huggins. He will pull almost anything when he has the players that can take it when its dished back. But not when not.
KU’s players, while they are incredibly willing to suffer and persevere just are not physically and capable of playing thug ball. And to take them into a thug ball contest is not only to take them into a contest they cannot win, but into a contest they are going to get hurt very badly trying to play.
There is a difference between going out and persevering through adversity and being able to fight it out in an alley.
KU’s players are too young and slight for alley fighting basketball, and alley fighting was exactly where WSU was trying to push the contest every chance it could. It was what they were good at and trained to play. It was not what KU was good at and not trained to play. I misread the team late in the season about that because of their incredible heroism playing through injuries and suspensions, etc.
It is not a knock on them to say they are not capable of alley fighting ball. It is just a fact.
Maybe next season, with some more maturity and some more muscle added on, they will be. But this season? It would have been a crime to send them into that kind of a contest.
So: once again, I think Self made the right choice in the moment, even though I doubted it in the moment and briefly afterwards.
Now, why didn’t Self just start shooting treys?
Because the team shot 29% from trey on 21 attempts. I guaranty you that if the team has shot even 37% he would have let them hoist 30.
So: what else was there to do?
He could have told them to get out on the break, but in the second half look at his troops. Perry couldn’t breath through his nose and he was hardly at his athletic best with a sore knee and a punchy brain. Frank’s right leg went dead sometime in the second half. Wayne was a no-show. Devonte and Brannen could run, but no one else could. And both struggled with handling the ball that day.
The only thing he did not try that I thought Self should have tried was Hunter, but would Hunter have made the difference? Probably not.
So: down the stretch Self slowed it down enough that Perry could do what little he could do in his condition, because by then almost no one else was a threat against the intense and physical defense being applied.
Sometimes you get cornered in a blind alley when you are outnumbered.
It just happens.
And when it does, you can struggle and fight, and take some with you, but in the end you are going to get the shizz beaten out of you.
And that is what seemed to happen in that game.
I don’t think Self could have done much else.
I don’t think there was much else to do.
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@jaybate-1.0 Good summary-the meal vs sandwich theory. HM may not have made any diff but I was disappointed Bill didn’t get him minutes in the first half & primed for the remaining 20 min with Perry’s bell ringer. Also one cannot disregard the tough, 3rd leg crotch shot that FM received from the double screen. He was simply not the same afterwards.
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@HighEliteMajor and @jaybate-1.0 have engendered an epic and fascinating discussion throughout the season and continuing into the post-mortem about offensive schemes and whether HCBS has taken full advantage of the strengths of the players on this particular edition of the Jayhawks. I would posit that whether it’s the H/L or some variation of 4 out, 1 in - dribble drive - or Bad Ball, you have to have players that can execute the scheme.
Frankly, I go back and forth as to whether this is one of Self’s best or worst coaching jobs. The reason I say that is based on what I thought we had in terms of talent coming in. I certainly expected a lot more - a real shot at a FF and even a NC. Based on what we (or at least I) observed throughout the year in terms of what players demonstrated in game situations, both individually and collectively, I’m not sure I understand how we managed to get #11, a #2 seed, and 27 wins against the schedule we played - seems like smoke and mirrors. I actually thought Self demonstrated more flexibility - that’s not necessarily saying a whole lot - than in past years.
The preseason optimistic scenario was based on the the assumption that Ellis was going to be more of a go-to, consistent 18 ppg scorer, that Selden would significantly increase his production and become the second go-to guy, scoring in the 15 ppg territory, that Mason would improve over his 1st year and become more of a true PG (and, he would have a solid back-up in Graham), that Alexander and Oubre would live up to their OAD hype, that Svi would be a bit of an X-factor (based on the skills he showed in Europe), that Greene would step up and split the 3 with Oubre and be the designated sharpshooter, and that Hunter would be a Withey-lite providing some rim protection (based off Ark numbers), with he and Landon providing solid minutes while Alexander developed.
How many of those expectations were met? Ellis was matching his by the end of the season - but not consistently before that - until he tweaked his knee. Selden - um, no. Mason, absolutely, with a big caveat, which I will touch upon in a moment. Alexander - #2 big to Okafor coming in - night and day difference between the two in basic skill sets. Oubre showed flashes, but needs more experience (which he will probably have to get at the next level), and ultimately didn’t produce at the level of other 2-3s coming in, e.g. Winslow, Booker, Williams. Greene turned out to be one-dimensional. Svi and Hunter? Speaking for myself, I liked what I saw of them when the were on the floor, obviously not often, and wish Self would have played them more, but we don’t seem them in practice every day. Lucas was very solid; he’s just limited. Graham, I think, met or exceeded expectations and I look for much more from him in the next couple of years.
It ultimately comes down to the players, and both individually and collectively, there are some real skill deficiencies that revealed themselves that I would argue made it challenging to find a scheme that could work consistently, esp. against a good defense/opposing coach. I really don’t mean to come down on the kids - some of this is due to the AAU culture, who they played against in HS v. in D-1, etc. And, I think they are good kids, I’m glad they chose Kansas, and hopefully, those who will stick around will benefit from the summer tour and get better with more experience.
Having said that, collectively, we didn’t have anyone who could finish at the rim, esp. against L&As, but really against any type of interior presence. No one. We are the most blocked team in the country. We don’t have a very good passing team, which both H/L in terms of entry passes and dribble penetration and kick-out demand as @sfbahawk pointed out. Svi and Graham are probably the two best passers - but they weren’t our starters. Are/were we a really good shooting team, esp. from 3pt range? Our numbers were really good early in the season, not so much as they year went on. Scheming? Fool’s Gold? Tired legs? Defenses adjusting? Reversion to the mean? I don’t really know. What I can say is that I’m personally comfortable with Greene taking any 3p shot when he is spotting up and wide open (and, when his head is in the game). I’m comfortable with Mason taking a wide open 3 when he is leaning into the shot. I’m generally comfortable with Graham taking an open three. Although he had a hot streak in the middle of the season, I don’t think Selden is a shooter from range (3 for his last 26 by the way). Oubre - can make them, but I don’t have a high degree of confidence. Unfortunately, I don’t have a high degree of confidence in any of them shooting a deep 3 coming off a screen at the top of the key or on the wing a la a Ron Baker, or making a contested 3. Does anyone else?
That’s on offense. On defense, collectively, we have some height, wingspan, speed but not great amounts of any of them. We don’t block out well. Footwork across the board is generally poor - don’t keep low center of gravity or slide well. We reach a lot, picking up cheap fouls. We too often get beat off the dribble. We don’t generate many TOs, at least leading to easy buckets.
Breaking them down individually:
Ellis - he can shoot from 15-18ft and has superior post moves, but he really needs space and he just isn’t particularly effective against L&As. He is most effective when he facing a 4 that he can take off the dribble from outside the lane, or can post against a not-too-big and the lane isn’t clogged. To his credit, his defense has improved considerably, but that’s going from poor to adequate.
Selden - an enigma. Numbers essentially the same as a year ago across the board, albeit with more volatility from game to game. He had a strong 5 game stretch in the middle of the season, 2 really good B12 tourney games, and was key in the FLA game - but was mostly a non-factor or worse in the other 28 games. Basically, he’s giving you Morningstar/Reed types of numbers, albeit with more TOs and less consistency. But, they weren’t McDs and projected lottery picks coming in. He can’t dribble in traffic, he doesn’t have any semblance of a left hand, and appears to be clueless when driving into the paint. Some have posted that he is great defender on the ball - he is not. When focused, his size can be a problem for other 2s or 3s and he can shut them down. But, quicker players blow by him and he too often gives up on those plays. And, he doesn’t rebound.
Mason - love him. He’s a bulldog and fighter and so on. He was our best/most consistent player during the year (that a 100+ ranked player was says volumes). He improved significantly from last year. BUT, he came in as scoring guard and has yet to fully develop as a PG. The hallmark of being a good PG is making your teammates better - distributing the ball effectively and finding the open guy. Those aren’t his attributes, at least as yet. The WSU game was emblematic. Early on, he was able to blow by VanVleet and get some layups. WSU adjusted and collapsed back into the paint. Rather than penetrating and kicking to now open wings, he kept driving into the teeth of the defense with predictable results. He also doesn’t run a break well - too often taking it all the way himself rather than dishing or laying off to a trailer. He is also has a bad tendency to pick up his dribble in bad spots, esp. a long way from the basket. He is a gamer, however, and hopefully will continue to improve. But, I think next year the better move would be make DG the PG, and shift Mason to the 2.
Oubre - our best two way player, but still very raw. Really quick hop allowing him to get a lot of put backs, including on his own missed shot. Hasn’t really learned how to elevate or adjust when driving to the basket in traffic, however. Streaky outside shooter. Solid defender with long wingspan. With another year to two, he could be special player - but it seems likely that he has played his last game as a Jayhawk.
Alexander - what a disappointment, in so many ways. Feel bad for the kid how things have played out. But, he doesn’t yet have a college game skill set, and certainly not NBA.
Greene - not withstanding the long dry spell, he clearly has a NBA caliber stroke from three. Of course, the problem is that he is one-dimensional - he can’t dribble or create his own shot. And, you never know where his head is at. And, he is a liability on defense. Will he commit to getting better in all facets of the game; can he? Will he be around next year to find out?
Traylor - got to love Jamari and his passion, but it isn’t always well directed. He can do some things effectively in stretches, but you don’t want him handling the ball too much or shooting from outside 6ft. He really is a poor positional defender and doesn’t rebound well. He should be the guy that comes in at the 4 to give you 8-12 minutes of high energy play - he should not be getting anything close to starter minutes.
Lucas - most fundamentally solid of the bigs and he really stepped up given the Alexander situation. But, let’s be real - he is limited. He’s undersized (definitely not 6’10’), not very quick, has no verticality, and has really weak hands. Can Hudy get him another inch of hop and stronger hands? But, if he’s playing more than back-up minutes at the 5, we have bigger problems.
Hunter and Svi - who really knows?
Graham - was set back by the early injury, played like a freshman at times, and isn’t going to be an elite guard like a Jones or Ulis, but by the end of the year, I think he was one of our three best players, and I have high hopes/expectations for the future. He can penetrate, he can shoot some, and he defends well - by far the best at creating TOs. I think our offense, whatever it was we were trying to run at the time, was more effective when he and Mason were in the game together.
So, I come back to my basic premise. You have to have the players to be able to execute a scheme - and to actually do so. Painfully obvious from the get go that we couldn’t run H/L as in the past or score at the rim. Spread the floor and free the 3 or play Bad Ball. I don’t think we had the right combination of players to do that effectively, either, at least on a consistent basis or when facing good defenses or coaches who are capable of scheming against us (which was clearly not the case with New Mexico State…).
So, I think Self was constantly adjusting throughout the year to find something that could work night in and night out. While I have my own frustrations with his style and tendencies - the quick yank, riding certain ponies way too long, not taking full advantage of depth - with the benefit of hindsight and given the issues noted above, I think a good case can be made that the did get about as much out of this team as he could.
We are spoiled, of course, and that’s not good enough. Others have posted about recruiting to fit the system, the risks of going the OAD route, merits of certain assistant coaches, who we end up with next year, and so on. All good stuff, but beyond this post to discuss further (for now anyway).
RCJH!
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@ralster @Lulufulu - I’m running with work today but saw the inversion item … yes, WSU does invert their guards/wings by flashing and posting up. What I saw a number of times was Cotton, Baker, and/or Wessel flash across mid to upper lane, or go to the block for a quick look, and then, move out. They did this regularly all season. They don’t invert their post players. We posted up Selden once the entire season (vs. OSU). I do not recall another time where we even attempted to post up perimeter player.
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@jaybate-1.0 Hmmmm, fascinating. No doubt the treys werent falling for KU that night. I sincerely hope that bloody nose Perry got was not on purpose. It didnt look like it was on purpose. Would WSU’s coach purposely tell his player to bash in Perry’s face, risking concussion and other more serious injury? Would he stoop that low? That would just be some low thuggish Cincinnati type stuff there.
Completely off topic, On the fair to decent chance that WSU plays Kensucky in the elite 8, I hope they do that very thing. Im actually going to hope WSU makes it to that game. I think they have a good chance to beat the Irish to win a match up with UK. Then thug ball it like mad, like they did against KU. Man, I would like to see that. Even if they dont win, they can hurt those younger less experienced UK players, making a loss in the final four even more likely for UK.
My end game here now that KU is out, is to see Kensucky get beat. They must not go 40-0
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@HighEliteMajor Wish you could get in Coach Self’s ear about not being so GD stubborn. After the game, I thought to myself, “Did he just get out coached?” I guess we know the answer. Self is a great coach, is a future hall of fame coach. But, does he have to learn to be more fluid with his in game adjustments? Can he learn to? I mean, here we have one of the best active coaches in the game and he gets his rear end handed to him by a mid major!? Again!? He has a greater than 80% win-loss record and his tourney record has got to be near .500. I mean, its just ridiculous. He has won the Big 12 eleven times in a row and most likely will get his 12th, which is a great accomplishment btw, but he gets bounced twice in a row after the first game of the tourney. What the hell? I mean, if this isnt a wake up call for Coach Self to learn to be more like Bruce Lee in his in game strategies, then I don’t know.
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@ParisHawk Why jump to the conclusion that anyone should be banned if they call for the coach to be fired? What do think that posters on sites dedicated to teams with 6 and 20 seasons do? They think that the coach is unable to win and they call for a new coach. When we get 10 point lists after 8 point lists after 6 point lists pointing out how a coach should change most of what he does including his assistants then what is wrong with calling for a new coach.
People can discuss anything that you want within the bounds of propriety . Based upon my post why did you jump to the conclusion that I was referring to HEM? I replied to Slayr and my main point dealt with the need for continuity. However, if a coach has to change his basic philosophy to win and he maintains that philosophy then why would you want him as the coach?
Lastly, what did my post have to do with the definition of terms? This isn’t high school debate where the side that defines the terms usually wins. What is so illogical about the position that if you think that a person cannot do his job he should be let go?
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Way to dig into the issue!!!
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@ralster Thanks for mentioning Izzo. “What are doing?” was exactly the question he asked one of his starters during the Virginia game when they took a bad shot shortly into the shot clock. What a horrid motivator.
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“Some have posted that he is great defender on the ball - he is not.”
Thank you very much. When he backpedals against the driver he is constantly switching his forward foot depending on which hand the driver is using & plays in way too tight. Here’s where the hand checks are important but to only measure the distance to step in should he pick up the dribble. Wayne plays so close in, that when the driver gets past his front foot, zip…he’s gone & Selden’s beat. Time after time after time I marveled at his worst case scenario for on ball defense. You must at least try to keep feet squared & body dead in front of the driver. When the guy dribbles off a hip Wayne is simply lost. And it negates any quickness he may have & makes def switches a fact of life. He thens swats in the breeze as his guy goes by & the only way he can recover is to foul. That’s def BB 101 & it’s supposed to be 300 level for a Jr next year. Barring a near miracle, he is likely our starter again next year at the 2. DG’s ball defense already has surpassed him & without the occasional freak athletic block, dive for a loose ball, or flush, would likely be getting more pine time than he already does, or should I say he deserves. Of course this is JMO.
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I sincerely hope not too, but…
Remember: KU pulling away after 7 fouls called on KU and 1 called on WSU.
A chance to get to the Sweet 16 maybe slipping away.
Playing a team with probably more OADs and 5 stars and reputed depth than WSU had. Playing a team with better three point shooting and a tenacious defense that could be very tough to come back against. Playing a team with a point guard that is keeping up with your star player–a point guard.
Remember: Self calls the stretch 4 the toughest player to guard in college basketball.
Perry is a stretch 4 and he scored 17 and 9 playing with a recently elbow-smashed nose and some apparent possible fogginess.
Imagine what Perry might have scored and rebounded had he been able to breath freely through a nose without probable swelling and inflamation from a recent elbow smash so hard that he had to be lead to the locker room for treatment. Imagine what he might have done had he been able to act and react without any apparent possible fogginess, and had no recently bloodied nose to protect.
Imagine if instead of leaving the game injured, Perry had stayed in the game and KU had continued to pull away from WSU to say, 10 points, or even 15 points by half time, before WSU could get into half time and try to adjust.
That replay was something.
Perry appearing to be leaning back some, face completely unprotected.
Right, and then toward the nose with the elbow.
I sincerely want to believe, too, but…
It appeared a complicated context and moment IMHO, that I wonder if the refs saw clearly than the replay?
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@globaljaybird Much more detailed explanation of my superficial reference - and, spot on. I don’t think any of our guys have especially good positioning and footwork on D - good balance, lower the center of gravity, slide instead of crossing over to chase, cutting off passing lanes. Selden, Traylor and Greene are the worst with basic positioning and footwork. Mason is okay and as you note, Graham is very solid. I actually liked what I saw of Svi - he just needs to get stronger. Wigs was really good at keeping guys in front of him - and, of course, could go high to block if someone did beat him, rather than swiping down as every one else does. And, I also don’t understand why Self continues to give him 30 minutes a game - he sees something different than you and I do…
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@jaybate-1.0 Yes, the replay was something. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t a flagrant. It wasn’t nearly this bad, but it reminded me of Coach K’s goon, Gerald Henderson:
That one was called a flagrant. In our case it was an offensive player who did the thuggery, and that is the only possible excuse I can come up with as to why they didn’t call it a flagrant.
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@ralster gotta agree with you here, wholeheartedly. I think HCBS got out-coached by the oil man but I’m really not buying this turmoil in the locker room hypothesis. Coach Self is a tough but fair man and I do believe the guys all see this and know that when it comes to basketball and life in general, Bill knows best. He’s an intelligent, charismatic guy and I believe he cares about all of them like crazy and I think the guys reflect that in the post-game interviews and through their demeanor even after a crushing loss such as the one to WSU. He’s the leader and to read into his remarks during a heated timeout is to me absurd. Leaders lead, he’s the coach and they’re the young men that play for him. He is not in the throws of a meltdown because he questions his guy’s performance in the moments of a game. Notice his demeanor when he knows these guys are rattled; he smiles and tells them to relax and get it together. He’s not perfect on the sidelines, but I think he’s a great influence on them on and off the court.
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@jaybate-1.0 Its interesting to see what our fellow jhawks here think of that wry smile from Self, late in the game. Personally, I took it as him trying to calm the team (as opposed to the red-face MasterHawk)–> because he knew they were 3-4 ways broke, & had lost their poise. Maybe he’s seen enough ball & knows his guys well enough to know its over? Just a possibility.
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I may post this quote repeatedly. Here is the first time. Tom Izzo, on Friday -
“I don’t know if it’s validation,” Izzo added. “It’s just you do what you have to do. There’s a lot of different ways to win. I think a lot of coaches have done it different ways. One of the biggest ways is you’d better adjust to the talent you have and play somewhat within your own system because you don’t want to change everything.”
This seems like the perfect balance.
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Lets face the reality that college basketball is changing in leaps and bounds. It was not uncommon for the game to change a little here and a little there. A new rule change, a new offense scheme. A new rising coach. Yet there was always a balance, a snap back to the old tried and true of how the game was recruited, coached, and played. Yet Everything has changed.
With the NBA’s hunger and willingness to gamble and throw large amounts of money at unproven players for the mere upside of their potential. Young boys or men have no choice but to forgo an education and take the money that is being forced in to their wallets and bank accounts. Yes the game has changed and is still changing.
In this regard I feel sad for the game and our beloved HCBS. You see the game has changed so much that system schools and system coaches are falling by the wayside. They are becoming casualties of the new area. One of the hardest things to do in one’s life is to change something that has made them who they are. When a person has had mega success it’s a hard pill to swallow and accept it’s time to change.
A system can be a great thing, yet like most things it can and does hinder your growth, and ability to change when it’s need is apparent. The last two years have shown that the need for change is apparent in KU land. How the game is played is different, the types of players that are recruited has changed, how the game is coached has changed. This is just a reality. I just hope HCBS can make the changes. He needs to break away from the tried and true and reinvent himself.
Two points to prove why HCBS needs to change.
Last years team. Remember it? Oozed with mega talent. HCBS made a big mistake. In so many ways but not all. HCBS had the players to run is tried and true patented High/Low. KU finally had a true guard that could take over a game in Wiggins. Yet what had HCBS licking his chops was Embiid. Having a big that can run, jump, block, dunk, fly, and just about everything else is a high/low dream. That was the downfall. Even HCBS said himself I was waiting and hoping he would come back when Embiid went down. The reality is HCBS found is dream big for his system and he pounded him into the ground. Not only hurting Embiid but also stunting the growth of the rest of the team. As the offense play was go inside boys.
This years team had no real big that could make the High/low work. No not even Ellis. Think about Ellis under the Mayor at Iowa St? Are you starting to see my point? HCBS stayed true to himself, and tried to make Ellis the focus of his high/low offense. Ignoring even his own revelation that this years team was the best shooting team he has ever had. The results? Ellis like Embiid got pounded into the ground, and finished the season injured. The worst part is the rest of team’s overall growth was stunted again.
Bottom line is if you’re going to play a system, then you recruit to that system and understand you will get beat by pure talent. Yet if you going to play this new game and recruit the OAD’s then you have to develop a system to play to your strengths. Even if it means reinventing the wheel ever year.
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@DoubleDD I have to agree with much of what you said. Especially the part of about recruiting to your system. I do not agree that last years team oozed with mega talent. It oozed with mega potential. Wigs was an outstanding athlete and he brought very good one on one defensive skills unknown to most freshmen. How much time was spent discussing how he could not finish? He was also not dissimilar to Kelly this year. Great one minute and Caspars ghost the next. His takeover game was at the end of the year. Would we have been better to give him the ball at the start of the season and say “go getem”?
Selden was supposed to drive to the basket and be an excellent defender. I remember how the same crowd on the other site were giddy with anticipation about what he would do to Marcus Smart. Hasn’t worked quite like that. Part of the problem may be HCBS, but a good part has to do with the grass and the other side of the fence.
Other than UK and Duke, what other teams have had OADs take them to the promised land? Generally what you see are coaches that run their systems whatever they are. If things go really bad in a game they may hand the ball to whomever their best player is and try to ride him. That usually ends in defeat. How have coach K, Izzo, Pitino, Ryan, etc. changed their games? Other than a tweak here of there I don’t see it.
A few years ago everyone here saw Shaka Smart was the next great coach to turn the game around. Since his teams are good but not great.
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@DoubleDD Absolutely agree with you that if you are going to stick to a system, then it is better to recruit to fit the system. However, I disagree that the system schools and coaches are falling by the wayside. Izzo is definitely a system coach, who has made relatively minor concessions to allow some additional freedom to his better guards, and just made his umpteenth E8. Pitino consistently wins without elite talent. Ryan is a system coach and has had continued success. I would also partially disagree with the statement that if you play a system you will get beat by pure talent. Capable, veteran teams (with emphasis on team) routinely beat teams with more talent. An overwhelming talent advantage, however, is likely to prevail much more often than not - certainly the case with UK this year, and Duke and Arizona also have multiple elite players. Interesting that you have 3 schools in the E8 that are all in on chasing OADs and 3 that classic “system” coaches/teams.
It appears that Self is trying to play it both ways, and we’ve seen how that has played out the past couple of years…
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I’m not saying that a system school or coach can’t make some noise, but as I’ve heard all year it’s all about the tournament. Yes these system schools can make some noise, but be honest do you see either Duke, UK, or AZ not winning this thing? That’s point.
If HCBS wants to play his system, then I’m on board. Yet lets get out of this OAD recruiting nightmare we are in, and recruit to the system. Losing sucks but it sucks even worse when you know you’re the better team. It’s like you left something on the table. Not a good feeling.
However if HCBS is going to chase and recruit these OAD’s, then he needs to reinvent himself, and not be so stubborn and loyal to what got him here. Believe me I want HCBS to be the next legend of KU basketball. I really do.
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@DoubleDD said:
Bottom line is if you’re going to play a system, then you recruit to that system and understand you will get beat by pure talent. Yet if you going to play this new game and recruit the OAD’s then you have to develop a system to play to your strengths. Even if it means reinventing the wheel ever year.
This is brilliant.
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@HighEliteMajor Why is “recruit to that system and understand you will get beat by pure talent” brilliant when when it is blatantly wrong? We have gone over and over that the best team does not always win the NC (and that’s all that counts). By the way, talent means more than dunks and threes. Sometimes it even involves defense. Now if a team is the most talented it does have a very good chance of winning.
AZ just got toasted by a system team. When did Duke drop from the ranks of a system team. They run basically the same offense and defense that Coach K has always run. Now that system involves shooting many more threes than does KU but who really thinks that he rolls the ball on the court and has everybody do their own thing. You may want KU to use the Duke system but that’s a different story.
Even UK hasn’t done much with only OADs. They have had more experience in 2012 and this year then they did last year.
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@sfbahawk You are right. I perhaps misinterpreted that first sentence. Change “will” to “may” and I’m good with that. How about the rest of it being brilliant?
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I wouldn’t try to defend my comment as brilliant in anyway fashion or form. However you opened up a whole different can of worms. As Duke seems to be your line of defense. Lets break it down. Shall we?
Coach K is a brilliant coach and I would agree that he runs a system of offense. Yet he doesn’t and isn’t so boneheaded to run every thing through the bigs. His offense scheme actually values the three and has set plays to shoot the three. Hence why he has tied the Wizard for the most Final 4 appearances. I have had the chance to watch Duke play and Coach K coach his teams over the years. As much as I hate Duke and Coach K I’m always amazed how he can change is form of attack in the middle of the game. He doesn’t just stick to the tried and true. He understands what isn’t working and what is, Then he makes adjustments.
Ask yourself this question? Why does Coach K always get considered for NBA jobs and HCBS never does? Now thats not me just trying to prove a point. HCBS himself has said he would be interested in the NBA game, but really never has any offers. So why is it that? I’m guessing it’s because he’s a system coach. In the NBA a teams roster can be changed or altered from year to year, and HC needs to adapt to the talent he has. Every notice when an NBA team talks about rebuilding they never talk about learning a system? Nope it’s about stock piling talent.
Maybe I’m being a bit extreme when I say pure talent will always beat a system, but man I’m not far off. The proof is in the pudding ask yourself this question? How many times has KU lost to a system coached team? Not very many. It usually some player with pure talent going off, or taking over the game
One last thing I’m not against a system run team. Hey bring it on. HCBS has done pretty well, but don’t go after OAD talent and then just have them pound the ball inside all day. It’s a waste of talent, and it drives me nuts.
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@DoubleDD I keep telling myself not to do this but I always do. So Duke doesn’t run its offense through the bigs and because of this Coach K is not a bonehead. The implication is that since Self does run most of his offense inside/out he is a bonehead. KU has a boneheaded coach. Why do you want KU to have a bonehead for a coach? By the way, Self has actually beaten Coach K. How could that possibly happen? How did Duke lose to Mercer last year? Coach K must have been unable to adjust to what Mercer threw at them.
Why do the color analysts always talk about having to work the ball inside/out. They are obviously boneheads too. My God the world is filled with boneheads.
Name 2 successful college coaches that have moved to the NBA and have been successful. I ask for 2 because I can’t think of 1 but then my memory isn’t what it used to be and I may have forgotten the 1. What was the last NBA job that Coach K was considered for? In fact, since he is always considered how about only 3. Coaching in college and in the NBA are a lot different. College coaches work within programs where the talent turns over constantly as people graduate and/or turn pro. Continuity is worth a lot in those cases. In the NBA there aren’t any coaches who make more money then their best players. The game is faster and everyone who is there has been through a filter which discards all but the very best. Not even UK has that. Coaching in the NBA is not an Xs and Os game. It is mainly one of managing egos. Most NBA coaches are former players or assistants who have had no college coaching experience.
Speaking of the lack of system in the NBA. Other than winning all of those championships what is Phil Jackson known for? I guess the answer can’t be the triangle offense because that would be a system and no successful NBA coach runs one. The real answer must be zen.
I have nothing against shooting threes. I have nothing against scheming to shoot threes. What I do have a problem with is the statement that Self does not like threes, doesn’t have plays to get them and is unable to adjust. What Self does not like, along with most other coaches, is bad threes. Self has stated that he doesn’t think that a three is bad because the shooter misses. His statement is that a three is good or bad the second it leaves the shooter’s hand. He does pull people who take threes when they should not. One of the boneheaded color analysts said yesterday that making a stupid play will get players a seat on the bench and that being pulled makes an impression on players because they want to be on the court.
How was Bill Self able to acquire his rather gaudy record at 4 schools with his total inability to make adjustments? That must be because the ranks of college coaches are populated by people even more boneheaded than he. Or not.
The fact that KU has lost to teams where some player goes off proves absolutely nothing. When that happens it is usually because said player shoots waaaay over his average. Most of the time that was done within a system with the coach deciding to ride the hot hand.
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Whoa I didn’t mean to upset you. Not my intentions.
Um Coach K has been considered for many NBA HC jobs. After all he does coach the Olympic team. He just has no desire. Why be a great in the NBA when you can be a legend at Duke after all the money is about the same?
The triangle offense? So you think Phil Jackson won all those championships because of the Triangle offense? It had nothing to do with Jordan or Kobe the two best players in the game over the last 20 years? I’m sorry I just don’t buy that one at all. No Bulls fan or Lakers fans that I’ve ever ran across said hey we won those championships because of the triangle offense. However again I think you missed my point I’m not against a system of offense. Not sure why you think I believe KU should just come down and chuck threes? The thing is you’re kind of proving my point. the triangle offense is mostly about getting the ball in your best players hands. Hence the most talented players. Am I wrong?
I’m sorry I offended you when I called HCBS a bonehead. I personally love the guy and hope for the best. However KU makes big money off it’s fans. This isn’t like fifty years ago when it wasn’t necessarily about winning but playing the game right. You force me as a fan to buy special packages just to watch KU then I’m going to speak my mind if I think things are going a wry. Wrong or right I will speak my mind. After all I’m picking up part of the bill just to watch.
Hey upsets happen as you said once before the tournament can be a crap shoot. However it seems to me KU has been exiting the tournament a little to early under HCBS’s watch. How many times has KU been a 1 or 2 seed and does nothing in the tournament? Look I get the love for HCBS I really do but at some point you have say hey what’s going on here.
My biggest beef with HCBS is he can’t make up his mind. Maybe he doesn’t have a choice? However he wants to play his system no matter what then recruit the types of players that can play the system. Yet he recruits all these great players and doesn’t even really scheme to use their talent. It’s all about pounding the ball inside. To me that’s a waste. You play to your strengths or you go home in the tournament.
It seems KU has been going home a lot here lately.
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1 - Larry Brown 2 - X
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BTW we recruited all 3 of Duke’s star freshman all the way to the end. Winslow was high on KU, even wore a KU jersey or shirt one day?Watching his game, elite defender and aggressive driving to the hoop, he would have been great in a KU uniform as well.
Jones & Okafor we were runner-ups to… We got Kelly & Cliff, 1 of 2 worked out. Devonte & Svi will really help us this year which depending how you look at it could benefit us more because all 3 likely to leave Duke this year.
Can’t fault Self’s recruiting, he recruited and got 2 top 15 kids maybe just not the right one’s this year. What can ya do?
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@BeddieKU23 said:
What can ya do?
Win some games in March.
That’s why kids choose Duke/Kentucky - whomever over us. They want a legit chance to go to the Final Four and to play for the National Championship.
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Just a couple years back though we had all the March Success. A bitter Sweet 16 loss, and 2 even bitter 2nd round losses really make us forget how good we had it. UK was in the NIT 2 years ago, last year needed a miracle turnaround to get where they got.
The pressure will be on next year to win in March that’s for sure but we are certainly due for some luck to come our way real soon.
