I THOUGHT OUR GUYS COMPETED THEIR BUTTS OFF. I'M PROUD OF OUR GUYS. Bill Self
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@RockChalkinTexas good effort, still should have won! I expected to win!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Couple of missed bunnies by Lucas and Kelly and Kelly missed 3 free throws. I liked the grittiness and fight shown. Should have had someone back in the lane on that last possession by OU. Cannot knock the way they all played – except Wayne should never have been given so many minutes in the first half.
5 losses in a reay tough conference ths year, probably less than 5 points in each loss.
Have a good night.
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It was ugly, ugly, ugly and made me happy to be a Jayhawk fan. I too wanted a different ending, but, still proud. Greene might be left out of the next game.
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@RockChalkinTexas Coach said it was a mistake to play Wayne at all.
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Tough, gritty game. Bad Ball showed up again, and if they’d tossed in another trey or two, the Hawks would have a new recipe for success. Regardless, hard to feel bad about that one. Double-double by Lucas offsets Selden’s 0-for.
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Besides Oubre, - Graham, Lucas, Mick and Svi were all in the game with five minutes to go. All played great. This could have been the best thing to happen to this team before the Tournament. Coach and the bench have confidence, Coach in them and the players in themselves.
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My god Buddy Hield is ugly. And someone desperately needs to tell him to stop the Duke floor slapping crap.
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@wrwlumpy He at least got the floor length pass right to give us a chance.
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This is probably the LEAST disappointed I have ever felt regarding a Jayhawk loss. Bench players really rose to the occasion; got the chance to shed some rust and polish their games. Two weeks from now those reserve minutes might just echo resoundingly in key Tournament situations. Interesting, Bill Self’s admission that he probably should not have played Selden. Wayne’s 0-7 really cost us some possessions. He is as strong minded a warrior as Mason, so the coaching staff knew he would not back off, even with the injury. Am I wrong, or does Self possess a history of pushing players through ankle injuries? (I am not attempting to dog on Self. Just wondering if perhaps there is a slight flaw in his magnificent armor. I well know that he tends to ride with a starter for just about every spark remaining in that player’s engine.) (Esp. if not a freshman!)
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Look at the minutes and line for Lucas.
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@REHawk I’m sure Wayne wanted to go, not forced. Pregame Self didn’t think Wayne would go.
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Totally agree about lack of disappointment!
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Tough loss but they played with heart and toughness. Proud of their effort.
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It was like taking the ugly girl to the prom, and being happy as a lark!
Great game! Lots of fight. Tough defense.
Sprinkle in some offense in the future and lets see what happens!
RCJH!
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@REHawk as any old ball coach knows, there is a fine line between pain and injury. Coach Self, being a Man of Toughness surely toes that line very closely.
Edit: Judging by Devonte’s poor shooting of late, I am of the opinion his foot is bothering him.
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@drgnslayr eww, have u done that? Jk
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@FarSideHawk what does it say?
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@crimsonorblue22 I thought it was going to say “SQUID” (HEM’s nick for Oubre with his 7 footer arms), but I think it says “SQUAD.” Nice technique though.
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@DanR they are some sweet pics!!!
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Jamari… got to love that guy’s effort.
But he needs to be coached. Very low basketball IQ and it is killing his game. He has a lot to offer if someone will spend the time with him to play a smarter game. 26 minutes and 2 rebounds? I recall from the WVU away game how he didn’t know how to position for boards. He kept shooting in directly under the basket.
I was impressed with several of our guys and how they DID position for boards… primarily Landen, Kelly and Hunter. Those guys snagged 28 rebounds just amongst themselves. It was refreshing to see much of the game where they sealed off the low post on rebounds. It has been a while since we’ve seen this done as a team.
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@Blown “…there is a fine line between pain and injury.” I think I know what you are saying, though I was not a “ball coach.” Structural mishaps often become very difficult for all coaches to grade and handle appropriately. The degree of injury, pain tolerance of the individual athlete, competetive disposition of the athlete, professional medical advice, relative importance of the current contest: all are factors which a coach and athlete must weigh and appropriately deal with. Obviously, Bill Self is a Man of Toughness…
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@REHawk most players are tough too.
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It is tough to really complain about anything today, despite the loss. Shorthanded and on the road, against a pretty darn good team.
Some things from the box score that stood out:
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Frank Mason zero assists.
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Jamari Traylor two rebounds in 26 minutes.
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Landen Lucas 6-8 shooting, 12 rebounds.
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Wayne Selden 0-7 shooting.
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Devonte Graham 3-14 shooting.
Just real impressed with the performance of Landen Lucas.
Looking forward, the Big 12 tourney means nothing more than getting our ship pointed in the right direction. That means winning it. 3-3 in the last six games is clearly our worst stretch of the season. But a good three game run in the Big 12 tourney can make that irrelevant.
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@HighEliteMajor Not diggin’ it. Get back to ya later on my reasons.
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@wrwlumpy Loved the heart we showed in the game. I think we’re tournament ready. Just have to get in front of these drivers to the basket.
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@drgnslayr @HighEliteMajor You both touch upon what I think is a key issue with this team - rebounding. We are not a particularly good rebounding team, at least compared to other other Jayhawk teams. We especially give up a high rate of ORs. OU, which itself is small up front, had their highest number of ORs last night, almost all of them in the second half. Some of that is attributable to not being as big as years past, but a lot of it is attributable to poor fundamental.
And, while I also admire his energy, much of the blame for that is attributable to Jamari - not just last night, but all season long. Simply put, he doesn’t contribute much on the glass generally - and he is just terrible on the defensive end. He averages less than 2 DRs per game. Almost everyone else has a defensive rebound rate higher than he does - Oubre collects DRs at almost twice the rate. The more minutes Jamari plays, the more rebounds and points we will give up in the paint.
This may be where we miss Manning the most - coaching up the bigs on fundamentals. Jamari doesn’t defend well on the ball, he doesn’t rotate well, and he gets caught out of position. Cliff has had the same problems. Landon is much more sound fundamentally (as is Hunter) but doesn’t have the athleticism (and very weak hands).
Jamari gives us energy, and maybe a bit more optionality on the offensive end, but I’m not sure it’s enough to offset what we lose on the defensive end. If he’s playing 20-30 minutes (rather than 12-15), it’s going to be a problem on defense for us - especially against other teams that attack the glass.
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Right Great effort. Very short handed…essentially missing 3.5 guys guys (counting Wayne). Two things: Notice how excited OU players and fans were for beating us? The game meant 2nd place (and probably a higher seeding for them) but still…shows what beating us means to the other league members. That makes 2 “last 5 seconds of the game” plays where the other team gets pretty much a clear path to the basket. Geez…can’t we defend that better? And Heild splits 2 of our guys for the putback.
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It’s kind of funny. I, like most of you wasn’t expecting too much from our team. Mentally I was prepared to lose.
And then for the 2nd time in a few weeks we let a kid go coast to coast (I know Staten travelled) right to the hoop and we lose and I was upset by it.
@HighEliteMajor is right. Some say who cares if we lose in the conference tourney? We’re Kansas, we want to win, expect to win, should win any game we play. Maybe for a banged up team fewer games between now and the dance might give us time to heal up, but it might also lead to us stagnating.
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We run our regular stuff, get about the same production out of our 4/5 spot as if Cliff & Perry were in there. Hardly any plays run for 3pt shots. And we lose a tight game. This is pretty much what I’m afraid we’ll see in the second round of the tournament.
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@wrwlumpy Yep. Me too. They fought hard. They are a tough, tough bunch. Reminds me of the type that the '12 team had. Minus the experience.
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Belmont upset Murray St yesterday to get an automatic bid. Belmont will be a 14 or 15 seed depending on what we end up with…
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That’s right. Jamari isn’t pulling his weight on the glass. It isn’t like he doesn’t try, he just needs to be coached on the “how to.”
There is no reason we can’t be one of the BETTER REBOUNDING TEAMS from here on out, regardless what bigs we have available.
Rebounding has only a bit to do with height and girth. It is mostly about attitude and technique.
It is little wonder that a team like WVU is at the top of the nation in offensive rebounds. Huggy is a tough nut, and he teaches toughness to his guys. They go after the ball and they know how to do it. And they do it WITHOUT SIZE.
It really wouldn’t take much to have our guys compete just as hard.
All we really need is for the following guys to step up and learn a little technique and then start applying TOUGHNESS! And have one of the new identities of this team be REBOUNDING and TOUGHNESS! This should be a key in BAD BALL!
I’m talking about Jamari and Wayne. And it just so happens these guys have the best bodies to BATTLE FOR BOARDS! Funny, how both get so few rebounds. Both of these guys lack many other skills in the game, too… and the rebounding is actually one of the easier skills to learn and improve your stat line. This is especially important if you hope to play ball after KU.
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@drgnslayr Self preaches toughness too, and you’d think rebounding technique would be a point of emphasis for him from day 1. It’s odd that Jamari doesn’t have better technique. He seems to have the right attitude, and with his body type to go with it, he should be a rebounding machine. But he’s not. Self obviously favors him, but he isn’t the rebounder he should be. He’s been here long enough and should have gotten proper instruction. I really don’t get it.
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I’ve been very negative on our assistant coaches lately. This is a job for an assistant coach. I’d like to know what each one of these guys bring to the table. The lack of very basic skills has really hurt this team. It also hurts each one of these guys as they seek to extend to a professional career in basketball later. We have plenty of athleticism… but you can’t make it in ball with just that, or with just one or two refined skills. Brannen is a good example there. He is a spot on shooter ONLY! If he moves his feet or has to dribble his shooting percentage drops almost to zero! That is amazing. He has spent a lifetime of drilling in only “catch and shoot.” Real life game requires a lot more. Players have to create their own offense. Shooters have to create their own shot. I believe this is part of why Self calls our perimeter game “fool’s gold.” Brannen is easy to neutralize. And in March, even if we work on perimeter set offense, won’t his shots be contested? The brief period of him receiving the ball on a golden pillow is done.
I’m not counting on seeing lots of improvements on the basics from now through March… but I’ve been very happy with this team stepping up and playing tough. That is one thing Self (himself) can teach this team.
I say that but then I have to give a thumbs up for many of our guys boxing out yesterday on the boards. And there were a couple of good shot fakes used in this game that really paid off! Jamari, of all people, had a great shot fake in the paint that allowed him to shoot directly over someone and score. If I’m not mistaken… didn’t he even get an “and-1” out of it?
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@drgnslayr Jamari has certainly stepped up his offense the last 2 days, which has been wonderful to see. Scored double-figures in both games, following 15 games with single digits (including 5 goose eggs). But boxing out isn’t something he seems to have figured out, although as you said many others certainly have.
Your point about our assistant coaches is interesting. The strength of our coaching staff was routinely praised a few years ago. Now Roberts and Howard have replaced Manning and Dooley and you don’t hear the same sorts of things. I haven’t heard anything negative either, but both Manning and Dooley used to receive high praise from many circles for their instruction and savvy.
But again, players are learning. Embiid’s progress last year was beautiful to watch, to see fundamental mistakes early in the season that would disappear and never return after a single game. It was remarkable how quickly he picked things up. Same coaching staff. Maybe it IS just differences between players?
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@tundrahok I think a lot of it is the programs they come from, bb IQ to hard work. Cliff was in a boot this past summer too.
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True…
But was that because of our coaches that Embiid improved? Or that fact that he spent most of his extra hours studying post players like Olajuwon? No offense to Snacks or Roberts… what does these guys know about play of a 5? Especially at the level of an Embiid? I think most of Embiid’s improvements were self-taught. JoJo is an intelligent man who has a high-degree of survival instincts. He’s capable of learning quite a bit on his own. And news came out constantly about him studying other great 5s.
I’m not going to credit our assistant coaches, just like I’m not going to credit Calipari’s assistant coaches for teaching the unibrow.
Jamari is a guy who didn’t grow up with basketball. He is a late bloomer and in many ways the game doesn’t come naturally for him. He has had to fight for every inch of his real estate. BTW… I really respect that about him and know that is why he is definitely one of Self’s all-time favorite players. Self will shed tears when BamBam graduates… I have no doubt about that.
But he has been around Jayhawk basketball for many years now, and he still doesn’t know the basics on rebounding! That is just astonishing! Very much unacceptable! He is a big, strong piece of clay just waiting to learn. Someone should teach him! There is no excuse!
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@drgnslayr I agree, Embiid was a savant. He should get most of the credit for his progress. But you’re right, this Jamari’s 4th year at KU. Regardless of his late start in basketball, something isn’t right that he hasn’t picked up rebounding by now.
Cliff’s progress has also been disappointing @Crimsonorblue22 but I’ll give him a break because he’s a freshman. Maybe a slow freshman, or a distracted freshman, but pretty young nonetheless.
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I think the issue with Cliff is that too many people overestimated his skill level coming in. Talk about a piece of clay! He is just reaching the level of clay that can be molded. He arrived in Lawrence as a clod! No offense to Cliff… I like the big guy. But facts are facts.
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@drgnslayr I fully respect the jobs our coaches do, Embiid didn’t just improve by watching tape. Who sets that up for him and then goes over it w/him? Didn’t coach t win the best asst last year or before? Cliff is also a young player, didn’t he start in 8 th grade? I know Mari’s faults, but if all players play w/his heart we would win more games! Yell at me now! I don’t care. Coaches love guys that give up their bodies for the team.
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@drgnslayr Cliff has had opportunities though, and has shown flashes of his potential. But too often he stands around and seems clueless. His clay seems to be taking awhile to cure (does clay cure? I probably screwed up the metaphor, but you get the point!). But I like him too, and he is young and has plenty of time to figure it out (if his family hasn’t screwed up his opportunity).
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@Crimsonorblue22 Sure coaches love him. I do too. I just wish they would teach him how to rebound
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@tundrahok I hope so too!
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@drgnslayr Why are you bashing Jamari? He could have easily gotten credit for 3 more rebounds. Instead of grabbing a rebounding he slapped the ball forward to Svi. He had another rebound in his hand, but the OU player was laying half in and out of bounds causing the ref to blow the whistle. He also grabbed a rebound at the same time as Mason III and released the ball to the point guard. That’s 3 boards right there, and this all happened in the first 7 minutes of the game. You say he needs to be coached up? Really? What I saw yesterday when I watched the game, and then I watched it a second time based on your comments, was a player that played his heart out and has plenty of “Basketball IQ”. Jamari is often called on to set screens at the foul line for the guards. He is also called upon to fall back when the guards penetrate to the basket to prevent the opponent from getting a run out. When he is on the boards he attacks and gives maximum effort. He posted 12 points, 2 boards, 2 blocks, and a steal yesterday. He also fouled out attempting to block a shot. He guarded OU’s big man Tyshawn Thomas and held him to 13 points and 6 rebounds. He did a phenomenal job keeping him off the glass. Thomas is 6’8" 240 and Jamari Traylor is 6’8" 220. He was given the assignment of guarding their big man and not Lucas or Mickelson. You are one of my favorite posters, but I have to disagree with you on this one.
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@KansasComet great stuff!! Eye test!!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks. Sometimes the game can be more than the box score. Speaking of box score he was also 5-6 from the field and 2-2 from the free throw line. Traylor balled!!!
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I’m not bashing Jamari. Simply stating he needs help on his fundamentals. Go back to the WVU game and the post from Jesse. This clarifies my post here. Jesse posted clips showing Jamari over-running the rim on rebounds… a true CRIME in fundamentals!
Jamari is easily one of my favorite players, mostly because he hustles. But there is no way he comes close to getting the results he should have with the energy level he expends in a game. That is a crime! And it should be pointed out… more for his sake. Maybe you want to credit him with 3 more rebounds… fine… that still doesn’t show him leading this team in rebounds when he clearly hustles more than anyone else on our team!
It does a disservice to players to not point out the help they need. This is crucial for him to maximize results for the effort he puts into the game, not only for Kansas basketball, but so this kid can build a resume for when he leaves Kansas.
I’ll state it again… Jamari needs help with fundamentals. His basketball IQ is lacking! Here is another example of that… yesterday… his team needed him and he committed his 3rd and 4th foul without a second running off the clock! I’m not bashing Jamari for that, just pointing to the obvious where he needs work. His rebounding needs work, too. That is an easy area for him to master. He can become every bit the rebounder TRob was if he is coached properly. He has the motor and the will… just needs to add the skill!
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Here is the ultimate stat concerning Jamari’s rebounding.
He is an “energy guy.” So was Kevin Young… a guy 30 lbs of muscle lighter than Jamari. Plus… Kevin had to fight for his rebounds much harder against his own teammates… like when we had a real 5… Jeff Withey… 8.5 RPG.
Kevin Young… RPG: 7.8
Jamari Traylor… RPG: 3.7
I’m guessing they played about the same minutes per game… around 20.
Jamari is not getting the stats he deserves. With his hustle and muscle he should be getting every bit the stats KY got.
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@KansasComet @drgnslayr Maybe we can split the difference on this one. Jamari plays with a lot of heart and he is a bit undersized compared to some of the guys he has to guard. Yesterday, he was a major contributor on offense in the second half. But I respectfully disagree with @KansasComet on the defensive end. While he “held” Thomas to 13 and 6, Thomas actually averages 11 and 6. And, he got beat badly by Thomas a couple times. I don’t know about not getting credit for 3 RBs, but he was officially credited with just 2. More importantly, in the context of yesterday’s game, Oklahoma had their season high in ORs - 18. 13 of those were in the 2nd half, when Jamari was on the floor for a few more minutes than in the first half. We dominated the boards, esp. the defensive glass in the first half when we had an unusual line-up - Hunter and Landon playing together for multiple minutes.
The fact is that Jamari averages just 2 DRs per game (actually a tad under that) - on a per minute basis, his rebounding rate exceeds only that of Wayne and Devonte - he is well behind the other bigs and wings - half the rate of Kelly, and even behind Graham. To your point @KansasComet, it’s not lack of effort. But the facts are the facts. His production on the glass is consistently less than one would expect - or needs out of a front court position. I agree here with @drgnslayr that it’s a fundamental skill that he hasn’t been coached-up on. Not really putting the blame on him. This is where we miss Manning.
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@DCHawker I get your point. My point is this. There is no way he can dominate on the boards, if he is nowhere near the basket. Jamari spends the majority of his time away from the basket. He is setting screens and boxing out defenders. His role on the team does not allow him to hang around the basket and collect rebounds.
