KU Played Bad, OSU Played Worse; Predicted--KU +10, Actual--KU +10

  • Let me say it feels good to get my prediction mojo back for a second straight game. It feels especially good this game because Vegas was +7 1/2 and KENPOM was closer still.

    But I picked Oubre to be the Hawk to Rock and though he scored 14 and glassvacced 6, I predicted 20-30 tonight. NOT!

    Mason dominated this one with 16 points the hard way–shooting poorly inside and outside but going 9-11 at the charity stripe–and incredibly getting NINE REBOUNDS!!! Mason is ridiculously good at rebounding for a short point guard.

    Looking at the box score one sees pretty much what one saw looking at the game–two teams that muddied it up because neither could shoot worth a darned, two teams that stripped and blocked about the same, and one team–KU–that baked more poptarts (KU +4 TOs) but wiped their butts on the glass (KU +17 overall and +6 on the offensive glass).

    Perry played his increasingly usual bad game redeemed some by hustle and some by defense and some by rebounding.

    Selden played his increasingly usual uninspired game but for a defensive play or two on a transition. His line score was anemic and yet he was good glue and good defense. He plays increasingly like Brady Morningstar with the ability to get up for a block or two that Brady would not make. He even shoots 1-2 from trey Brady used to shoot. I liked Brady a lot. I like Wayne a lot. Wayne just passes the eye test and so we expect more from him. But I said screw the eye tests with Brady, so I say screw the eye tests with Wayne. Without his hops, he has turned into a solid glue man and this team needs every base covered it can.

    Traylor started and never got into his face to the basket mobile big man attack platform game. His line score was pitiful: 0 rebounds, 0 blocks, and 0 steals from our energy man.

    The bench saw solid play from Graham guarding Forte well, assisting well, and making timely baskets and FTs.

    The BRD, Cliff Alexander, was productive in low minutes, but 3 PFs ensured this would not be a break out game.

    Landen Lucas saw a lot of minutes the second half and didn’t do much, but he did grab four boards, guard the post well and did not turn it over. He did no harm.

    Bottom line KU played bad, OSU played worse, KU is 14-2, and ready to sneak off with an early conference lead.

    After being my most pessimistic ever about a Self team, my prediction is: KU wins the conference with two losses. Tying with three losses is another possibility, but I am sticking with two losses.

    I have no good reason.

    Just a hunch.

  • @jaybate-1.0 you are wrong on Mari!!

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    I will be gentle.

    You are in love with Mari and I am right. 🙂

  • @jaybate-1.0 check box score.

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    Oops, he got 4 points and 2 offensive reebs and ZERO defensive reebs! Do you have any idea how hard it is for a starting center to get zero defensive rebounds when an opposing team shoots 31%? (16 of 51 FGAs). Mari actually had to be holding his hands at his sides and running away from rebounds not to grab at least one random carom out of 35 possible caroms.

    But you are absolutely right. He got two offensive boards.

    But I forgot to mention his four PFs.

    It just was not a stellar game for Mari, but then it was not a stellar game for any of our guys.

    What they did is what they do best: win ugly against short teams.

  • Note to coach Ford: Thanks for finding another ineffective way to “not let us run our $#!t” . . .

  • @KU62 Oh we ran some $#!+ thats about all we ran

  • @cragarhawk

    I love your Jefferson quote!

  • @jaybate-1.0

    3/12 on threes…argh! Did OSU guard the three that well making us play through the post? Or did hcbs go back to his roots?

  • Devante looks GREAT! Kid can pass, play D, penetrate and shoot.

    Svi and Greene pine time. Lucas didn’t hurt us. Mickelson cryogenically re-frozen.

  • @jaybate-1.0 You are right on Jamari. @Crimsonorblue22 – tell us what exactly he did? Traylor has the myth around him, that he is a good rebounder. Miles Simon mentioned that with Cliff and Traylor in we’d get more rim protection and rebounding. The former, sure. The latter, uh, no. Traylor’s rebounds per minute have always been horrible. No escaping that fact. Traylor, though, is now better than Ellis on many nights. Tonight wasn’t one of them.

    But good gracious. If this effort, again, does not demonstrate to coach Self that we can’t be at our best playing inside-out, I have no idea what will. If this continues, this season has no hope. We can’t function this way. Blocked shot after blocked shot. Turnover after turnover. Missed shot after missed shot inside.

    And get this. On a night where Self’s game plan was to force feed the ball inside, and on a night where our team shot a whopping 46 free throws, guess how man free throw attempts came from our big men? An unreal 13. That 28% of the attempts. This is yet another indication of our interior incompetence.

    This is getting monotonous, but Ellis was 1-8 from the field.

    Self chose this game plan because, reasonably, one could think that we should be able to score on the interior against this team. I did. This was one night where I thought heading in that, hey, we can beat this team inside. Wrong. We got very little from our post game. We won it at the free throw line – from our perimeter guys getting to the line. Not our post guys.

    Tonight was yet further evidence of the “death of the post feed.”

    I really don’t know what Self has to be thinking right now. I would be, and I am, absolutely flummoxed with the complete lack of ability to score inside. Traylor has no post game. Lucas tries – and tries. Cliff is simply developing things he never had to do much before. And Ellis, is, well, Ellis. That’s all, folks.

    How long will Self keep banging his head against the wall?

    We only shot 12 threes. I still feel that this is malpractice with this team. We were 3/12 from three. Some might think that is good cause not to shoot more threes. But remember last game? 3/11 at half time. We ended the game 11/22. Gotta shoot them. Gotta shoot them some more. And then keep shooting. Miles Simon mentioned early that this was an excellent shooting team, and that Self said this is one of the best shooting teams that Self has had since he’s been here.

    So what do we do? Pound it inside, of course. With guys that can’t score inside.

    Self played our best assassin just 3 minutes (Brannen Greene). As mentioned above, I do think this was a game plan thing for OSU. At least I hope it was. Still, it makes no sense to give Greene only three minutes. See if the guy can get hot. First three point attempt and he’s out within seconds. Svi, of course, didn’t even play. Selden though played 26 minutes. 6 points. 2/7 shooting. 0 assists. 0 steals. 3 rebounds – which were 6 behind team leader Frank Mason. Now, Selden did guard Forte. But did little to stop him.

    Selden gets the free pass from Self.

    Thank the good Lord for Frank Mason. He is spectacular. We thought our one-two punch would be Ellis and Selden. But it’s Mason and Oubre. Embrace it, coach.

  • OSU did exactly what it planned to do, turn the game into a foul fest and kept sending player that don’t play much to wear out KU. At one point in the second half it had played 11 players and every single one of them had at least 2 fouls and KU was missing FTs. At least none had the ability to flop and draw fouls like Smart did. No flips (or flops) on the center court Jayhawk either.

  • @VailHawk

    This was a “roots” game if ever there were one.

    It is my belief that @HighEliteMajor is in an emergency room, or in some cardiac care facility at this very moment, recovering from Self’s return to inside out, which HEM sensibly predicted was finally on the ash heap of this season’s history, and which I concurred with him on.

    But never, never, never, never, never, never, EVER count inside out dead when there are teams remaining on the schedule as short as we are, or shorter.

    Bill has coached a lot of years and he “likes” inside out, just as he “dislikes” zone.

    Whenever he can see an opportunity to play inside out and still win, he will do it just because he likes it.

    Same with zone. Whenever he can win a game without playing zone, he will, because he “likes” M2M and “dislikes” zone. It is a very subjective aesthetic preference. It is like preferring Ermengildo Zegna suits over Ermengildo Zegna casual wear for a function where either would be permissible.

    The moment I looked at OSU’s roster, I suspected that Bill would stop the team from raining treys, but I confess I did expected him to continue to use the mobile big man attack platform (face to basket offense by KU bigs). I thought the MBMAP was aesthetically preferable to him. But I was wrong.

    Bill likes his bigs to play B2B and his perimeter players to only take kickout treys and less than 15 in a low possession game.

    He thinks it looks very smart, like one of his business suits he wears to games.

    He thinks it looks smart especially in grinder games.

    Why he thinks this is rooted in a deeply subjective sense of aesthetics, nothing more.

    Bill knows they wouldn’t have a prayer playing inside out against a really good team with normal size for a D1 big. He has admitted it in his own indirect way.

    So what we watched was another nostalgia game. It was one those games that Bill knows he has the talent and size to win playing it the old way–the inside out way.

    And so he does it because he can, and because he thinks it looks smart, like his suits.

    The only problem with this indulgence is that it offers the team fewer reps playing the way they will have to play against good teams–outside in.

    I am a hand wringer by nature and so I worry about such things, but Bill clearly believes that you really don’t have to practice outside in much to be good at doing it.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    So glad you weighed in. I was worried you were in a cardiac care unit. See my post above that was being written apparently as you were posting yours. And yes I do believe you are right to interpret it yet again as “more death of inside out.”


  • @jaybate-1.0 It … just … won’t … die.

    I know, if I wish hard enough, it will happen. I wish, I wish, I wish we could score inside. Are we scoring inside yet? I’ll wish some more.

    Watching us wash, rinse, repeat inside is difficult to comprehend. Kind our “thank you sir, may I have another moment” that keeps repeating itself.

  • @HighEliteMajor said:

    This is getting monotonous, but Ellis was 1-8 from the field.

    Laughing so hard I am crying. 🙂

  • @HighEliteMajor said:

    I wish, I wish, I wish we could score inside. Are we scoring inside yet? I’ll wish some more.

    Actually doubled over in my fake aeron laughing so hard I cannot see through the tears.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    PHOF. Lmao!

  • @cragarhawk said:

    @KU62 Oh we ran some $#!+ thats about all we ran


  • @jaybate-1.0 said:

    Bill knows they wouldn’t have a prayer playing inside out against a really good team with normal size for a D1 big. He has admitted it in his own indirect way.

    So what we watched was another nostalgia game. It was one those games that Bill knows he has the talent and size to win playing it the old way–the inside out way.

    And so he does it because he can, and because he thinks it looks smart, like his suits.

    The only problem with this indulgence is that it offers the team fewer reps playing the way they will have to play against good teams–outside in.

    I am a hand wringer by nature and so I worry about such things, but Bill clearly believes that you really don’t have to practice outside in much to be good at doing it.


    I know it’s fool’s gold and all, but I guarantee you that Ellis could shoot 1-8 from half court. And we’d get one more point out of the deal, to boot.

    Free the three.

  • @HighEliteMajor said:

    Ellis could shoot 1-8 from half court. And we’d get one more point out of the deal, to boot.

    This is the essence of it. And he might have gotten fouled one of those half court shots and gotten three free throws on top of the 3 point make of one shot.

    The percentages are with the three point shot almost every possession with this team, because of how limited they are inside, unless they just get a wide open lob, or a wide open lane drive, and even then its only 2 points, not 3. So even the wide open looks should not be taken until the three point shooting has created some separation.

    One more thing: did you notice that in the second half when things got dicey, he did have the bigs start playing face to basket even when he was making them go down low. I am pretty sure he was experimenting to see if his guys maaaaaaaaybe could score inside if they faced the basket.

    Ah, but we are 14-2 and in first place and all of us are having a whale of a lot of fun with this season, so let us eat, drink and be merry, for some day we lose…

  • I have also been a long time proponent of changing our gameplay to cater to the terrific three point shooting we have on our team. I’ve been saying this since the UK game on that ‘other’ site. Anyway, really hoping the light goes on for Self soon and we unleash our sharpshooters and play to our strengths.

    Its pretty obvious to me that in games where its tightly called, the odds get heavier in KU’s favor. KU has more depth than almost anyone we’ll play this year and that becomes the difference. Games that aren’t called tightly KU will struggle more. The opposing team doesn’t have to go far into their bench and frankly, the team isn’t tough enough inside to consistently finish through contact. Luckily for KU this was a whistle heavy game tonight. Also, in a game called like this, it seems Self plays the guys that are more apt to get into the lane, draw that contact, etc. vs. the finesse guys that are typically spot-up and shoot guys (Greene, Svi). I don’t think its planned to play those two as little as he did but moreso a product of how the game is being called.

  • @RockkChalkk

    Very much agree. I would only add that I believe the light has gone on for Bill at least since the Temple game. Every game recently where it was obvious we couldn’t win it inside, he has very quickly moved to outside in, as some of us are calling shooting treys first to loosen it up inside second.

    But whenever he finds a team that is short enough to play inside out, and hold down the number of treys to <15, he plays inside out. Part of it is that he keeps trying to give his short bigs chances against guys their size to learn to play basic back to the basket post basketball. I suspect he keeps trying because he is hoping to find a game where the light goes on for one or two of the short bigs. It would help their self respect and confidence a lot of there was at least someone they could score inside on sometimes; that I suspect is what he believes.

    And then @HighEliteMajor and I have been somewhat irreverently, and playfully, but with some seriousness too been explaining Self’s fitful migration from inside out to outside in in terms of psychodynamics. @HighEliteMajor tends to see Bill as some one who can be rather stubborn and inflexible about change. I seem to view Self slightly differently. Where as HEM sees Self as desperately trying to make his team able to play the old inside out game, so he does not have to change, I see him as conceding he has to change, but simply preferring the old way for subjective, stylistic reasons. Bill gets nostalgic for the way he loves to see the game played, and so when he gets a chance to play the old way, well, he does it because he can.

    I am kind of playful and I suspect HEM is a bit practical by nature than me, and so I if I had to bet I would say his interpretation may be close to the probability of what gives with Self. But my rather more playful take on Self is still a possibility.

    I think what you add substantially to this discourse about Self’s adapting to three point shooting is the idea that things like the way the games are called feeds into his tendency to go back to the old ways, or to carry on with the new ways and new experiments. I think that makes a lot of sense and I will be watching for it.

    Rock Chalk and welcome back aboard, if you haven’t been visiting us much lately.

  • Ick nasty muddy grimey game. Our missed free throws were putting the screws to the KU fans. Every miss in the second half was like another ratchet on the rack. Each miss another lash. Especially after the first 10 minutes of this game put us in the mood to stomp OSU. All the whistles killed the flow. There seemed to be a collective release and relief with the applause and crowd murmur when Graham’s free throw at 3:24 bounced way up off the back of the iron then dropped through the net.

    Lucas had good night off the bench to help build his confidence. He was called upon late to be the big when Self went small. Which is more perplexing this year: figuring the minutes/rotation for the front court or the back court?

    Impressed with Graham’s play considering he is a Freshman point, he sat for several weeks, and he is contributing solid minutes early in conference play. Graham’s fresh out of the boot and Greene is riding pine along with Svi. I noticed Graham sitting right next to the coaches most of the time while he was out on the DL.

  • @HighEliteMajor Do you feel that Selden still has a viable shot at making it to the L? What about Ellis? Traylor? When Selden first got here, I thought he was almost a can’t miss. Same with Ellis. And Traylor maybe in pro ball somewhere. But it seems that they have been regressing. If so, is it Self’s fault?

  • For the 2nd time already I’m chalking this game up to “A win is a win”.

    37% shooting and we will win by 10. +17 in boards, 14 missed FT’s, 16 Turnovers. Usually that’s going to be a loss but at Allen Fieldhouse its a win.

    What I thought was the game could have easily been +10 in their favor. A lot of missed shots from O. State. We lose this game in Stillwater if we play the same way. They won’t miss 35 shots at home.

    Selden & Ellis shot a combined 3-15. What the frick is that??? Mason, Oubre, & Graham making 21 FT’s was huge for this win.

    We continue to see just how important Graham is to this team. Can handle the ball so it saves Mason’s wheels. Can bench Greene to send a message without losing any high level play. His importance as the 1st or 2nd guard off the bench is noticeable. I’m honestly surprised how well he’s played but maybe we shouldn’t be, he was a supposed to be a College Freshman last year so maturity wise he’s got an edge.

    Now let’s get ready for Saturday. Will need much better shooting to pull it off.

  • @Wigs2

    Pre-season hype has outweighed the true facts. Selden was expected to be the leader of this team as a top 15 All American. He has been inconsistent scoring the ball. His stock has gone down the drain. He will be back in a KU Jersey and will continue to work on his game.

    Ellis doesn’t have a position in the league. With average athleticism and a finesse game he’'s destined to play in Europe without the consistency in his game.

    The good thing is we will have a deep experienced team next year with legit title hopes.

  • @JayHawkFanToo Bingo. Hack a Hawk.

  • @HighEliteMajor Look at it this way - if Self wasn’t trying to occasionally pound it inside, we don’t have that highlight reel posterization dunk by Cliff on Anthony Allen. Puts a smile on my face every time 🙂

  • @jaybate-1.0 Nostradamus call on the game. If we had run the offense that works, we would’ve won by 20. Maybe this is a three dimensional chess strategery aimed at throwing off the Mayor- maybe it was a knee-jerk reaction to Napoleon Jr’s “hack a Hawk” game plan …maybe he simply forgot to try what works…

    My predicted Big 12 standings:

    1- KU 14-4

    2-WVU 12-6

    2-Clones 12-6

    4-UT 11-7

    4-OU 11-7

    6=Faylor 10-8

    6-OSU 10-8

    8-Grapes 8-10

    9- TCU 6-12

    10-TTU 1-17

  • Lucas might not have had a TO in the box score, but he muffed a pass from Graham that was an easy dunk. Fumbled it right out of bounds. You know, the same thing Perry does every time he has the ball in traffic. I’ll bet if you shake Perry’s hand, it is one of the weakest, limp-wristed handshakes ever. Grab ahold of it tight Perry! Frustrating!

  • @ZIG stat HUDY immediately!

  • So much for Devonte’s return spelling rest for Mason. Cannot believe a word Self says!! His tendencies override him.

    I thought last nights game was going to be a good indicator of how the rest of conference will play out. They won by 10, but the PHOG brings 10 so I call last nights game a wash. I’m predicting 5 losses for this group in conference play, but that will still be enough to win or tie it.

  • @jaybate-1.0 said:

    Perry played his increasingly usual bad game

    I cannot count how many times I yelled at the tv after Perry gave OSU the ball… over and over and over. I know it was at least 13 (5 official turnovers and 7 out of 8 missed shots) but there were unofficial ones too. Every. Single. Time he touched the ball I said “here it comes” and unfortunately I was right waaayyy too often. It was painful.

    Coach even kept running plays especially designed to give him a shot late in the game! ACK! I get the whole confidence building thing for a player we’ve relied so heavily on earlier in the year. But if insanity is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for different results… well, if HCBS isn’t a little crazy for continuing the Perry lovefest when the guy is obviously having a rough night, he sure is driving me nuts.

    Notice how Ford gave practically his whole bench minutes in a high pressure game (11 guys with two or more fouls!!)? There were various reasons for that (foul trouble, winded, etc) but I sure wouldn’t have minded seeing a few more of our guys see some real action so they won’t be so rusty come March.

    But hey, we won another hard fought game.

    And almost as good as that… did you see the Misery Kensucky score? 86-37, 1-18 from 3. I wish there was a way for both of them to lose, but since someone had to, it’s gotta be the Kittens. All in all, not a bad night 🙂

  • We did play some defense.

  • We beat the crap out of Forte. That poor boy is counting his bruises and limping to advanced basketball theory class right now.

  • Brannen Greene all of three minutes played.

  • @wissoxfan83 We certainly did play some D. They scored 57 points. That is pretty abysmal. Too bad we only scored 67.

  • Two different KU technicals. Two men from Chicago. I think a lot of us would like to see some of this attitude in the Validictorian from Witchita. Jamari is very high strung and filled with explosiveness. Self’s job is to constantly calm him down., something he doesn’t have to do with Perry.


  • @wrwlumpy I’m from Chicago and I even got a technical once at a KU intramural game. My teammate came into the game without checking in. He got T-d and I slammed the ball on the ground for his stupidity and I got T-d up too.

    In all seriousness I hated the T against Cliff because it was bogus. He did nothing wrong except flex his muscles. He knew he was going sportscenter with that throwdown. He’s a freshman. Let him show some emotion!

    I hated Jamari’s T. I hated Oubre’s bushleague move for starting that whole stupid episode. I work in an environment like that that kids start fighting over the exact same thing. He bumped me, he said something to me, etc. etc. The difference is I teach kids, not grown men.

  • I was surprised to see 38 minutes for Mason as well, however, he got to spend a lot of that time off the ball and he rarely had to be the one chasing Forte all over the floor. I think that alone is a saving grace for our star point guard. I’m really starting to see why Frankamp transferred. No way does he beat out Frank or Devonte this year. Sure he could have earned some minutes with Graham’s injury but there was no predicting that.

    As for Greene’s 3 measly minutes, he had to come out. A: he could not guard their tiny little quick guards B: he clearly tried to make that game about him with that 3 attempt. It was a moment that he tried to take over and that just isn’t what we need from him right now. He could have gotten that shot at any time over Forte. That was a play where he was trying to show the other team up. It was not about the team and he deserved to be set. I’m sure he heard about it which led to the pouting (which I didn’t see) which led to more sitting.

  • @benshawks08 you are exactly right about BG. I hate it too. Somebody said he didn’t hustle after a rebound either. After the game Self talked about us being selfish and not playing team ball.

  • @benshawks08 Thanks for the Greene explanation. I came home from a game and had to watch the KU game on semi fast forward before bed time. Didn’t really allow me to fully grasp what was going on.

  • @wissoxfan83 I hated that entire scenario too. I guess the problem is these are not grown men. They are certainly not kids but they are not men either. They are 18-20 year olds who are still at a point in their life where bad decisions come quite frequently. That said, Kevin Garnett is a grown man and he head butts Dwight Howard and then punches his hand while staring at him. Perhaps some of these guys never mature.

  • @joeloveshawks Well, Garnett is from the same neighborhood in Chicago as Cliff and near to Jamari!

  • @benshawks08

    The high minutes were a direct result of the importance to Self of winning a home game. It was a must win. Lose that game and the chance for another title would have been hugely jeopardized. The formula for winning the conference is win at home at any cost, and try to steal road wins when and where you can grab a little edge. Any time we are pushed at home, you are going to see the starters minutes on this team spike, if their performance level that night will permit it. In a close game, you raise your chances of winning the most by playing your best players the most. Mason is currently our best player and he had to play the most he possibly could to ensure that ten point separation survived. Self did NOT want a close game against a team with a guy like Forte. This time I totally agreed with Coach Self’s decision to play players huge minutes. The next game is not till the week end and its a Saturday Monday situation, so we’ll lengthen our bench then.

  • @joeloveshawks

    Neural nets not grown in.

    Still unlearning aggressive territorial habits from childhood.

    Keep close tabs in a hotly contested game against an agent provocateur like Travis Ford.

  • @jaybate-1.0

    Totally agree. I wasn’t disagreeing with the decision. It really seems to me that Frank is just a beast and will play nearly every minute of every game this year. He is so important to the offense of this team it is very difficult to sit him. It is nice having Devonte back to get him some in game rest as mentioned above. I am guessing we will see much more “resting” of Mason in this way throughout this tough Big 12 slate. We simply can’t afford to have him out.

    I have noticed these last couple of games some similarities developing between Devonte and Frank. Every once and a while I find myself wondering, “did Frank teach you that?” And they are a Freshman and Sophomore! Is it bad that I don’t miss Conner at all? Like seriously, zero!

  • I know Self was pretty pissed with how we played. I thought for the most part we showed great energy and aggressiveness which he’s always preaching. Of course he found plenty of other things to get on them about but that’s coach being coach. The game was muddied with fouls, those same fouls 2 games ago in Waco don’t get called. It shows you just how different Ref’s are from game to game. There was zero rhythm to the game and it dragged on forever because of it.

    I was disappointed in the 2 called Tech’s on us. We did nothing to get either. Oklahoma St. is still proving they are a bunch of punks that try to come to Allen and show us out. The same situation with Mari happened last year. Cliff had a freshman moment and the refs picked on him for it. Now they will use that situation to fuel their fire when we return the visit in a few weeks.

  • @wissoxfan83 I live in Chicago. Somehow I can keep from physically threatening people. But hey, we can’t all be cool and calm.

    I like Mari and Cliff for their emotions and drive. Just need to point that aggression in the right direction!

Log in to reply