Tomorrow and other topics
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BeddieKU23 a little confused, Cliff and oubre are over-rated cause they haven’t played, but Okafor and Johnson, who haven’t played either, are not? How can you be sure the new guys won’t be better than Ellis and Selden? I’m so excited to see what we have!! I’m expecting a lot better D!
Sorry for the confusion. Yes they are overrated because their ranking has nothing to do with what college ball they have played so far. Has everything to do with High School ranking and hype.
I didn’t clarify what I meant about Johnson and Okafor. Both those players are going to start from day 1. Both are going to be given big roles on their team and because of that they are the only 2 that I’m thinking will have a chance to live up to the ranking cbs has given them.
I don’t believe Kelly and Cliff will be in the situation to have to carry this team. They may have games where they do but overall I think Ellis and Selden will handle a bulk of the scoring. If they both avg 15 points a game or so, wouldn’t they be higher than 22 and 32 on the list?
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You never disappoint, @ralster ! Nice post.
I don’t think we should feel slimy for going after OADs. The relationship of OADs and slime is mostly the product of Calipari, especially a few years back when all he had to sell players was slime. You would think that his current prestige with OADs would mean he doesn’t have to sell so much slime these days, but he still is Calipari… so, once a used-car salesman, always a used-car salesman (I apologize to all the upstanding used-car salesmen reading this!). Today, Calipari is selling recruits with “star persuasion”… meaning… new recruits will get to meet Drake (for example). It has been sickening to watch Cal change as other college coaches catch up to his recruiting. He can no longer talk about how he is the only real choice for getting someone into the league (which was bs in the first place).
We don’t have to feel slimy because we will still do whatever we can to develop players, even if we only have them for one year. I do believe there is a learning curve involved here. I definitely don’t think we developed Wiggins well in his one year. Self was perhaps a bit too hungry just trying to satisfy Wiggins, when he should have been harder on him and he should have had a more focused effort on maximizing the skills he did have (and help him realize where he needed to develop for the next level), but instead the effort was put into Wiggins just being cut loose to the rim and always trying to make the next highlight clip. Wiggins should have focused on just a couple of areas of mid-range to score from, rep those moves in practice, and try most of the time to get his shot from those spots… same direction most NBA players take when developing (like Kobe).
“Slimy” should be related to the structure around college basketball. Everything from junior high to HS to AAU to NCAA to NBA… There are elements of slime in all of it, mostly because there is no way to really protect the interests of the young athletes. The biggest consideration (that is ALWAYS swept under the rug) should be to prevent the slime from starting when these kids are minors. And there really isn’t a way to protect them, except for the NCAA’s fascist reach into their lives before they play college basketball by putting down laws that have the same kind of controlling factor as a sweatshop in China. Fact is, these minors do not have control of their lives, it is being dictated to them.
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@drgnslayr times are changing, Self rolls w/it. Until the rule changes and I hope it does, we get the best guys we can. Can Cal develop guys subbing 5 for 5? I wouldn’t be happy w/that if I’m a highly ranked player looking to be developed. As for Wiggins development, I’m pretty sure he learned a lot about playing D. Wiggins said he couldn’t believe all he did not know. I think he grew as much as a kid can in a year. Wiggins and Embiid speak so highly of us, it will continue to benefit us.
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“Can Cal develop guys subbing 5 for 5?”
His recruiting conversation concerning development is one, singular message: “You will be playing against the top players in college every day in practice. What more could you ask for?”
His other recruiting conversation is: “Look how many great NBA players I’ve put into the league.”
Did HE get them in there, or did THEY do it themselves?
He totally sidetracks away from his lack of ability to coach development. He used to defend his inability to coach development by making excuses that having a player for just one or two years is not enough time to develop. I’m sure there are many competing coaches playing those interviews to current prospects to help recruit against him.
I don’t think Wiggins grew as much as he could in a year while playing at KU. I know his development will take time… many years… very much like Kobe’s development happened when a young Kobe entered the league. I don’t think his constant mishap attempts at finishing everything at the rim was a good way to spend his year, unless it is to teach him NOT what to do! He’s already pulling back completely from the style he played at KU and is learning what the word “pull up” means.
All he really needs to do is watch old clips of Kobe to see the right approach for a guy like him. He should avoid most of the Jordan tape because Jordan had freakish abilities to finish that Wigs or Kobe will never have.
I’m sure Wiggins learned a lot at Kansas, but those undisciplined forces at the rim was nothing he needed to take to the league with him, unless he wants to just get smoked and hurt.
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Jordan was unique, and it’s a long shot but I wonder, Wiggins is still a kid-19 years old right now. Wigs testosterone levels could be jacking up right now and I have to believe he will be adding weight-all muscle at that. 18 to 19 mean big physical changes to some-even more from 19 to 21. If everything falls into place we may see some Jordanesque comparisons in years to come.
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@ralster I finally found someone as jazzed as me about Oubre. Chalmers with height…love it!!!
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This post is deleted!
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@KUSTEVE Really? This whole chat board is made up of nothing but speculation. I thought that was the whole point–to express views.
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@KULA not trying to be rude, but wondered why you think that! Does it have to do w/CF leaving?
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Yes, we get it, we all basically speculate here based on whatever information is available at the time. However, you have to admit that when several members, including me, question your post, there would appear that there is more than speculation on your part.
Perhaps you did not word what you meant correctly, but to an impartial observer, it appears that your are trying to say that you know something unbecoming about Coach Self and obviously, we all would like to know what that is. It’s that simple.
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@Crimsonorblue22 his treatment of players that get swept aside. You court the heck out of a kid to get him to come to KU and then show 'em the door when someone you perceive to be better (or someone who you think can further your own personal success) comes along. We read tons of reporting 2 years ago about Conner coming to KU and what a great shooter he is and tons of speculation about how he would impact the Jayhawks. Now it turns out that he doesn’t fit in to Bill’s scheme anymore, thanks for playing, here’s some lovely parting gifts.
I know it’s a business and business is business, but it’s just an unsavory business. Especially when you see it exposed in something you would like to think of as clean and pure, like amateur college athletics. Call me an idealist. And it probably goes on at all big college programs but we don’t hear about it as much because we don’t follow those programs as closely as we follow this one. But we see it a lot here. And when you live in that water, I wonder if it begins to mold your character, hence the “kind of a dick” statement.
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@KULA Maybe its because I follow KU closer the last few years than ever before, but it does seem like we have more players come and go than we did in the past-say five years ago and before that.
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@JayHawkFanToo No, I don’t have any inside info on Bill or his program. I don’t know any more (and probably less) about it than most posters here. I’m not trying to start rumors on this board. Strictly personal opinion here.
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@KULA : I take CF leaving as a sign of CF and the CF family seeing that he wouldn’t and/or wasn’t going to beat out the guys ahead of him this year or the next. Are you blaming coach Self for recruiting better players?? I want Self (and we all should) to fill his 13 scholarships with the best players he can get. Are some of those guys going to come here with a high ranking thinking they’re a big dog only to find out that what they did in high school just doesn’t cut it anymore. You bet your ass. And are those same guys going to tighten their shoelaces and bust their ass to beat out the guy ahead of them or are they going to go somewhere else so they can be “the man” and beat out a lesser player for their time?? Which player would you rather have wearing a Kansas uniform??
You should really go read the latest article about Cliff if you haven’t already. Cliff dominated high school because he was a big body and he knows it. And now he knows he can’t rely on just out muscling the other guys. He’s got to learn the skills that will help him pay the bills. This year he’s going to go against some of the best and most athletic big men in the country. He can’t just use his size against Turner or UK. He got to work on his post moves if he wants to score on them!
As for CF, I do not think Self showed him the door. I do think Self was honest with him about his minutes. Just like he was honest with AW3. And Royce. And… ect. And it’s not like Self is playing Tyler over CF. He’s playing guys that Self sees as a better combo for the kids he has. I get it that CF had great numbers against guys in high school that weren’t D1 defenders. But now he’s playing against D1 guys everyday in practice and in games and he seemed rattled. His shot was off most of last year. Could it be the quick jerk or the length or both??
Now I understand CF leaving to go do his own thing. Would I rather he stuck around? Yes, just like I hope (almost) all of our players stick around to become big time players in their senior years. But CF got to do what CF has to do. He knows he’s only going to be a KU 6’0" so he has to weigh those options of sitting and partially contributing or going somewhere else that suits him and fits his style and size.
Finally, CF is going to go somewhere else and steal playing time from some other player that went to a school because he thought he was going to get to play. Does that make CF a dick for stealing his future teammates minutes??? I mean that kid did go to said school to play and when that kid signed his LOI CF wasn’t there…
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@JayhawkRock78 : We’ve always had transfers. Appleton, Q Thomas, Micah Downs, D. Padgett, CJ Giles, Alex Galindo. I think it’s becoming more common everywhere though. I read a report on it last season about the number of players that sign with one school as a freshmen and actually graduate from that school. Numbers were staggering.
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@Kip_McSmithers I’ve never heard of so many transferring after graduating, fb and basketball.
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My “slimyness” comment was more a tongue-in-cheek comment about fan perception. By even being in the same arena as Calipari, are we and Self now equated w/Calipari? Sort of a weird guilt by assoc…? And as pointed out by another jhawk below my post, maybe even Cal doesnt have to be as slimy as he once was…but even now, 6yrs after Rose’s chromed out 300c, and the WWWes, and the shadow testtakers, and Enes Kanter-gate…whats the perception now of Cal? It didnt help that he cleaned out his roster a couple of yrs ago with the “playing time” axe, but then, maybe post-NIT fail he had good reason to clean house. But throwing your players under the bus, and then throwing them out of the program (essentially, by drastic mpg cut)…can still feel slimy, as its clearly cutthroat? Thats my perception. Granted, I’ll concede Cal’s system has proven it can get a NC W, but its peaks/valleys are one helluva rollercoaster. Even KY fans were lamenting not getting to know their players longer than the 5mos season, & missed rooting their guys for 3-4 yrs…I can respect that sentiment.
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@KULA Conner was not promised the moon. He was an early commit to KU and Like all Kansans, we wished he would make the team. Creighton was the only other team that was truly pursuing him. Seldon and Wiggins fell into the mix later. No one was pleased with the point guard situation last year and as much as I was encouraged by the Stanford game, I’m not at practice everyday. If you feel that Bill is a Dick, that’s fine, but speculating an embarrassment in the future, should include in that paragraph what that event might be. I’ve read all your post and you are not a Homer, more of a glass half empty is what I perceive. No one has a better winning percentage than coach. If you were the AD, would you call him into your office and tell him he’s a Dick and that you are worried about a future embarrassment without giving him a reason?
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
@Kip_McSmithers I’ve never heard of so many transferring after graduating, fb and basketball.
I don’t think I follow. Are you referring to kids like Tarik?? Or did I not make a clear point?? If it’s the later I put the blame on daylight savings… Here’s the link: Tracking transfer in Division I men’s basketball
And another… Transferring in college sports can’t become free-agency
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I for one, was not talking about kids who graduate.
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@JayhawkRock78 : I knew you weren’t. And all the guys I mentioned left well before graduation.
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Thanks for the link-40% of high school players going directly to Div 1 bball transfer by the end of sophomore year. Staggering.
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“If everything falls into place we may see some Jordanesque comparisons in years to come.”
I think the league is too risky today for guys to make too many wild finishes at the rim. Wiggins will save his body (and career) by staying more selective on when he finishes at the rim. Personally, I’d rather see him save his body. He’ll still give us endless highlight tape by using his athleticism away from the basket.
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“maybe even Cal doesnt have to be as slimy as he once was”
I believe that to be true. He has way too much to risk these days by putting Kentucky under the microscope of the NCAA and have them disqualify seasons and tourneys.
But I still consider it slimy when he recruits players through “star persuasion.” That takes advantage of kids thinking like kids. What should matter is how coming to Kentucky will help a young player advance his game… not getting an intro with Drake. I find that to be very slimy.
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@KULA That was rude of me. I apologize for reacting.
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@Kip_McSmithers I just meant in addition to the underclass men, I didn’t know so many graduates transferred too.
