Tomorrow and other topics

  • I see on our schedule we have an exhibition tomorrow night. Did anyone know? 🙂 What should we look for? I usually don’t get too excited about these matchups, although it sure is good to know that we can watch the boys in action.

    I will be very interested to see Svi in action. Wondering what kind of ‘mystery’ man we’ve got in him.

    Wiggins is struggling a bit. Saw some of the same things that drove us crazy, including several drives to the hoop, explosively, only to not finish.

    CBS has a top 100 list. Here’s KU on the list. Cliff 14, Kelly 21, Perry 22, Wayne 32. If Kelly is better than Wayne I’ll be tickled because like a lot of you I"m stoked to see Selden break out this year. The entire list is here:

    When the season finishes in April, it will be baseball season again! Hooray!

  • all the Freshman on the list are overrated, especially since none of them have even played a game. Okafor and Johnson are probably the only ones highly rated who will have a impact on their team where they might live up to that ranking. Selden and Ellis are better than Cliff and Kelly and I don’t think that will change all year.

    Tomm should be a pretty sloppy game. We will probably see some good things, but I expect to see lots of turnovers, bad defense, sloppy offense. It’s an exhibition game and usually we play better in the 2nd game. At least this year our starting point guard doesn’t have to sit like the past few years. I think Cliff will have a big game playing against smaller players and our expectations will grow for him. Self said he’s still a work in progress but obviously really likes where he could be in a few months from now.

  • I would say my attention will be focused on Mason. What does he do with the ball? Does he look to be a creator? How sure is his shot? Can he get to the rack and score when presented the opportunity? Does he run into brick walls and throw up crap? This could be the key to our season.

  • @BeddieKU23 a little confused, Cliff and oubre are over-rated cause they haven’t played, but Okafor and Johnson, who haven’t played either, are not? How can you be sure the new guys won’t be better than Ellis and Selden? I’m so excited to see what we have!! I’m expecting a lot better D!

  • The thing to consider about 6’7 Oubre, is his 7’2 wingspan, which is like freakin Cole Aldrich! He also has 2 things you cannot coach: a Chalmers-like defensive anticipation, and a “motor” that seems as relentless as TRob’s. That means hustle for rbds, for steals, and feeling chippy/aggressive on the offensive end. Dont want to make more of 1 play, but seeing Oubre trying to dunk a potential game winner over the top of 6’9 Cliff, in a big stage game tells me alot about Kelly Oubre. That and the fact his dad came out and said he is not necessarily a OAD, it all depends if his play is deserving or not. Oubre (&Wiggins) have what AW3 (&Frankamp) did not.

    Yes, as a long time KU fan/alum, this focus on OAD-level talent makes one feel Calipari-dirty. A little sleazy, as we jump in bed with the “next hottie” (top20 ranked player). But Self isnt shying away from it. Maybe thats our cue, but more importantly, thats the direction Self’s driving it, despite whatever sufferrings happen to Self’s playstyle as less experienced kids try to execute it.

    Does Self see this as a dilution of his product, or as a new professional challenge to integrate top talent & try to win? Its a $52mil question, as this is practice for NBA coaching, if he can do what Caliparisquid-turned-Kracken is doing at KY. You know all thru his midmajor days and into the Illini days that Self lusted after top ranked kids just like Gregg Marshall does…but Self worked hard at his pitch, & now lands top kids. He’s not backing away. Interesting paradigm shifting going on within KU basketball…is Self himSelf morphing in front of us?

  • Good post @ralster. If he is morphing into a OAD coach, which is kind of what you’re saying I’m not sure I like it. Kentucky is the notable exception in the last 10 years or so of OAD’s winning it all. I’m sad when guys leave after their four years on campus. I"m sad because we got to knew them in a way. When Wigs left, I shrugged, he used us to get very rich, I don’t blame him either, he had to use someone. But when someone like Travis Releford comes in or Perry Ellis and gives us years of blood sweat and tears I appreciate them much more, especially when the OAD doesn’t deliver title #4 which ours haven’t.

  • IMHO Self would probably take 5 OADs and 5 TADs (recycled OADs) on a team in a heart beat and never look back. Call it a 5/5 team.

    IMHO Self would probably take 10 OADs, if he could get them. Call it a 10/0 team.


    Because I suspect he believes he can coach circles around Cal. He beat one of Cal’s apparent Nike Stacks in '08. Cal had Derek Rose for god’s sakes and KU beat them. It took some luck, but Self beat Cal. Turn the talent around and Self probably would have beaten Cal with Cal’s team. Next, Self gave Cal’s 2012 apparent Nike Stack a run for its money without any Mickey Ds, and he probably believes if he could sign up a 5/5 team he could probably clean Cal’s 5/5 team even up. And if Cal signed a 10-0 stack and Self had a 10-o stack Self probably figures he could take him 9 out of 10, or so it appears to me.

    Self’s problem is only Nike appears to have a big enough high school stable of OADs to stack a 5/5 or 10/0. adidas seems lucky to appear to stack 2-3 OADs on a team.

    Self appears comfortable with the ambiguity of the OAD. He appeared to compromise with Xavier, who appeared to protect the merchandize. He appeared to compromise with Wiggins, who appeared to protect the merchandize.

    Self appears to adapt year to year and situation to situation.

    Last year, he and the coaches were to soft on the players and the team did not play tough enough defense. I suspect it was because he perhaps guessed Wiggins would be playing to protect the merchandize.

    This year his OADs appear to be the kind that are willing to be TADs out of the block and appear not to be Number 1, or even Top 3 type choices, even if they play exceptionally well this season, so Self appears to be talking the hard approach again.

    If he could somehow sign Wiggins to play next season, I believe he would go soft again.

    The apparent extent of his flexibility can be unnerving.

    When he only had 6 players and Teahan in 2012, he appeared to sand bag almost every game and appeared to have his team play hard the last ten minutes of games. This season, because he has a bunch of middling talents, but no superstars and no rim protector, according to his assessment, he will probably have the team playing balls to the walls for 40 mpg most games.

    Self Ball appears to reflect whatever material he has to work with assuming only two things: m2m defense and high-low offense. And he appears willing to morph the high-low offense into so many different kinds of action depending on what he has to work with that in some ways high-low only means the players line up in the old Carolina passing offense formation that Larry reputedly cribbed from Henry Iba and gave to Dean, because they have to stand somewhere to start.

    Self reputedly recruits characters with athleticism, probably because Coach K, Roy, Pitino, and Ratso Izzo don’t like such quirky characters and probably don’t recruit many of them. Self appears to take what he is given in recruiting just as he appears to in other things.

    But trust me: I believe if he could be given 5 OADs and 5 TADS, he would take them in a minute. And he would probably find a way to win with them, just as he found a way to win playing apparently soft last year until Embiid went out with the back injury.

  • Beginning to feel more and more that Bill’s just kind of a dick. Would not be surprised at all to see some revelation surface in the next 3-4 years that will bring embarrassment on the university. And I mean something more serious than getting bounced out of the tournament by a middling school with no basketball tradition.

  • @KULA I just wish you would come out and say what’s really on your mind.

  • Starting Graham, Selden, Mason, Ellis and Traylor tonight, not that that means jack about the rest of the season.

    Feels like Christmas!

  • @DanR I am hoping this is the lineup for UK as well. I’m convinced playing small ball against them is the only way to win. Let’s just hope this group gives us enough of a threat from 3.

  • @nuleafjhawk Yeah why the mystery? LOL

  • @Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @BeddieKU23 a little confused, Cliff and oubre are over-rated cause they haven’t played, but Okafor and Johnson, who haven’t played either, are not? How can you be sure the new guys won’t be better than Ellis and Selden? I’m so excited to see what we have!! I’m expecting a lot better D!

    Sorry for the confusion. Yes they are overrated because their ranking has nothing to do with what college ball they have played so far. Has everything to do with High School ranking and hype.

    I didn’t clarify what I meant about Johnson and Okafor. Both those players are going to start from day 1. Both are going to be given big roles on their team and because of that they are the only 2 that I’m thinking will have a chance to live up to the ranking cbs has given them.

    I don’t believe Kelly and Cliff will be in the situation to have to carry this team. They may have games where they do but overall I think Ellis and Selden will handle a bulk of the scoring. If they both avg 15 points a game or so, wouldn’t they be higher than 22 and 32 on the list?

  • @ralster

    You never disappoint, @ralster ! Nice post.

    I don’t think we should feel slimy for going after OADs. The relationship of OADs and slime is mostly the product of Calipari, especially a few years back when all he had to sell players was slime. You would think that his current prestige with OADs would mean he doesn’t have to sell so much slime these days, but he still is Calipari… so, once a used-car salesman, always a used-car salesman (I apologize to all the upstanding used-car salesmen reading this!). Today, Calipari is selling recruits with “star persuasion”… meaning… new recruits will get to meet Drake (for example). It has been sickening to watch Cal change as other college coaches catch up to his recruiting. He can no longer talk about how he is the only real choice for getting someone into the league (which was bs in the first place).

    We don’t have to feel slimy because we will still do whatever we can to develop players, even if we only have them for one year. I do believe there is a learning curve involved here. I definitely don’t think we developed Wiggins well in his one year. Self was perhaps a bit too hungry just trying to satisfy Wiggins, when he should have been harder on him and he should have had a more focused effort on maximizing the skills he did have (and help him realize where he needed to develop for the next level), but instead the effort was put into Wiggins just being cut loose to the rim and always trying to make the next highlight clip. Wiggins should have focused on just a couple of areas of mid-range to score from, rep those moves in practice, and try most of the time to get his shot from those spots… same direction most NBA players take when developing (like Kobe).

    “Slimy” should be related to the structure around college basketball. Everything from junior high to HS to AAU to NCAA to NBA… There are elements of slime in all of it, mostly because there is no way to really protect the interests of the young athletes. The biggest consideration (that is ALWAYS swept under the rug) should be to prevent the slime from starting when these kids are minors. And there really isn’t a way to protect them, except for the NCAA’s fascist reach into their lives before they play college basketball by putting down laws that have the same kind of controlling factor as a sweatshop in China. Fact is, these minors do not have control of their lives, it is being dictated to them.

  • @drgnslayr times are changing, Self rolls w/it. Until the rule changes and I hope it does, we get the best guys we can. Can Cal develop guys subbing 5 for 5? I wouldn’t be happy w/that if I’m a highly ranked player looking to be developed. As for Wiggins development, I’m pretty sure he learned a lot about playing D. Wiggins said he couldn’t believe all he did not know. I think he grew as much as a kid can in a year. Wiggins and Embiid speak so highly of us, it will continue to benefit us.

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    “Can Cal develop guys subbing 5 for 5?”

    His recruiting conversation concerning development is one, singular message: “You will be playing against the top players in college every day in practice. What more could you ask for?”

    His other recruiting conversation is: “Look how many great NBA players I’ve put into the league.”

    Did HE get them in there, or did THEY do it themselves?

    He totally sidetracks away from his lack of ability to coach development. He used to defend his inability to coach development by making excuses that having a player for just one or two years is not enough time to develop. I’m sure there are many competing coaches playing those interviews to current prospects to help recruit against him.

    I don’t think Wiggins grew as much as he could in a year while playing at KU. I know his development will take time… many years… very much like Kobe’s development happened when a young Kobe entered the league. I don’t think his constant mishap attempts at finishing everything at the rim was a good way to spend his year, unless it is to teach him NOT what to do! He’s already pulling back completely from the style he played at KU and is learning what the word “pull up” means.

    All he really needs to do is watch old clips of Kobe to see the right approach for a guy like him. He should avoid most of the Jordan tape because Jordan had freakish abilities to finish that Wigs or Kobe will never have.

    I’m sure Wiggins learned a lot at Kansas, but those undisciplined forces at the rim was nothing he needed to take to the league with him, unless he wants to just get smoked and hurt.

  • @drgnslayr

    Jordan was unique, and it’s a long shot but I wonder, Wiggins is still a kid-19 years old right now. Wigs testosterone levels could be jacking up right now and I have to believe he will be adding weight-all muscle at that. 18 to 19 mean big physical changes to some-even more from 19 to 21. If everything falls into place we may see some Jordanesque comparisons in years to come.

  • @ralster I finally found someone as jazzed as me about Oubre. Chalmers with height…love it!!!

  • This post is deleted!

  • @KUSTEVE Really? This whole chat board is made up of nothing but speculation. I thought that was the whole point–to express views.

  • @KULA not trying to be rude, but wondered why you think that! Does it have to do w/CF leaving?

  • @KULA

    Yes, we get it, we all basically speculate here based on whatever information is available at the time. However, you have to admit that when several members, including me, question your post, there would appear that there is more than speculation on your part.

    Perhaps you did not word what you meant correctly, but to an impartial observer, it appears that your are trying to say that you know something unbecoming about Coach Self and obviously, we all would like to know what that is. It’s that simple.

  • @Crimsonorblue22 his treatment of players that get swept aside. You court the heck out of a kid to get him to come to KU and then show 'em the door when someone you perceive to be better (or someone who you think can further your own personal success) comes along. We read tons of reporting 2 years ago about Conner coming to KU and what a great shooter he is and tons of speculation about how he would impact the Jayhawks. Now it turns out that he doesn’t fit in to Bill’s scheme anymore, thanks for playing, here’s some lovely parting gifts.

    I know it’s a business and business is business, but it’s just an unsavory business. Especially when you see it exposed in something you would like to think of as clean and pure, like amateur college athletics. Call me an idealist. And it probably goes on at all big college programs but we don’t hear about it as much because we don’t follow those programs as closely as we follow this one. But we see it a lot here. And when you live in that water, I wonder if it begins to mold your character, hence the “kind of a dick” statement.

  • @KULA Maybe its because I follow KU closer the last few years than ever before, but it does seem like we have more players come and go than we did in the past-say five years ago and before that.

  • @JayHawkFanToo No, I don’t have any inside info on Bill or his program. I don’t know any more (and probably less) about it than most posters here. I’m not trying to start rumors on this board. Strictly personal opinion here.

  • @KULA : I take CF leaving as a sign of CF and the CF family seeing that he wouldn’t and/or wasn’t going to beat out the guys ahead of him this year or the next. Are you blaming coach Self for recruiting better players?? I want Self (and we all should) to fill his 13 scholarships with the best players he can get. Are some of those guys going to come here with a high ranking thinking they’re a big dog only to find out that what they did in high school just doesn’t cut it anymore. You bet your ass. And are those same guys going to tighten their shoelaces and bust their ass to beat out the guy ahead of them or are they going to go somewhere else so they can be “the man” and beat out a lesser player for their time?? Which player would you rather have wearing a Kansas uniform??

    You should really go read the latest article about Cliff if you haven’t already. Cliff dominated high school because he was a big body and he knows it. And now he knows he can’t rely on just out muscling the other guys. He’s got to learn the skills that will help him pay the bills. This year he’s going to go against some of the best and most athletic big men in the country. He can’t just use his size against Turner or UK. He got to work on his post moves if he wants to score on them!

    As for CF, I do not think Self showed him the door. I do think Self was honest with him about his minutes. Just like he was honest with AW3. And Royce. And… ect. And it’s not like Self is playing Tyler over CF. He’s playing guys that Self sees as a better combo for the kids he has. I get it that CF had great numbers against guys in high school that weren’t D1 defenders. But now he’s playing against D1 guys everyday in practice and in games and he seemed rattled. His shot was off most of last year. Could it be the quick jerk or the length or both??

    Now I understand CF leaving to go do his own thing. Would I rather he stuck around? Yes, just like I hope (almost) all of our players stick around to become big time players in their senior years. But CF got to do what CF has to do. He knows he’s only going to be a KU 6’0" so he has to weigh those options of sitting and partially contributing or going somewhere else that suits him and fits his style and size.

    Finally, CF is going to go somewhere else and steal playing time from some other player that went to a school because he thought he was going to get to play. Does that make CF a dick for stealing his future teammates minutes??? I mean that kid did go to said school to play and when that kid signed his LOI CF wasn’t there…

  • @JayhawkRock78 : We’ve always had transfers. Appleton, Q Thomas, Micah Downs, D. Padgett, CJ Giles, Alex Galindo. I think it’s becoming more common everywhere though. I read a report on it last season about the number of players that sign with one school as a freshmen and actually graduate from that school. Numbers were staggering.

  • @Kip_McSmithers I’ve never heard of so many transferring after graduating, fb and basketball.

  • My “slimyness” comment was more a tongue-in-cheek comment about fan perception. By even being in the same arena as Calipari, are we and Self now equated w/Calipari? Sort of a weird guilt by assoc…? And as pointed out by another jhawk below my post, maybe even Cal doesnt have to be as slimy as he once was…but even now, 6yrs after Rose’s chromed out 300c, and the WWWes, and the shadow testtakers, and Enes Kanter-gate…whats the perception now of Cal? It didnt help that he cleaned out his roster a couple of yrs ago with the “playing time” axe, but then, maybe post-NIT fail he had good reason to clean house. But throwing your players under the bus, and then throwing them out of the program (essentially, by drastic mpg cut)…can still feel slimy, as its clearly cutthroat? Thats my perception. Granted, I’ll concede Cal’s system has proven it can get a NC W, but its peaks/valleys are one helluva rollercoaster. Even KY fans were lamenting not getting to know their players longer than the 5mos season, & missed rooting their guys for 3-4 yrs…I can respect that sentiment.

  • @KULA Conner was not promised the moon. He was an early commit to KU and Like all Kansans, we wished he would make the team. Creighton was the only other team that was truly pursuing him. Seldon and Wiggins fell into the mix later. No one was pleased with the point guard situation last year and as much as I was encouraged by the Stanford game, I’m not at practice everyday. If you feel that Bill is a Dick, that’s fine, but speculating an embarrassment in the future, should include in that paragraph what that event might be. I’ve read all your post and you are not a Homer, more of a glass half empty is what I perceive. No one has a better winning percentage than coach. If you were the AD, would you call him into your office and tell him he’s a Dick and that you are worried about a future embarrassment without giving him a reason?

  • @Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @Kip_McSmithers I’ve never heard of so many transferring after graduating, fb and basketball.

    I don’t think I follow. Are you referring to kids like Tarik?? Or did I not make a clear point?? If it’s the later I put the blame on daylight savings… Here’s the link: Tracking transfer in Division I men’s basketball

    And another… Transferring in college sports can’t become free-agency

  • I for one, was not talking about kids who graduate.

  • @JayhawkRock78 : I knew you weren’t. And all the guys I mentioned left well before graduation.

  • @Kip_McSmithers

    Thanks for the link-40% of high school players going directly to Div 1 bball transfer by the end of sophomore year. Staggering.

  • @JayhawkRock78

    “If everything falls into place we may see some Jordanesque comparisons in years to come.”

    I think the league is too risky today for guys to make too many wild finishes at the rim. Wiggins will save his body (and career) by staying more selective on when he finishes at the rim. Personally, I’d rather see him save his body. He’ll still give us endless highlight tape by using his athleticism away from the basket.

  • @ralster

    “maybe even Cal doesnt have to be as slimy as he once was”

    I believe that to be true. He has way too much to risk these days by putting Kentucky under the microscope of the NCAA and have them disqualify seasons and tourneys.

    But I still consider it slimy when he recruits players through “star persuasion.” That takes advantage of kids thinking like kids. What should matter is how coming to Kentucky will help a young player advance his game… not getting an intro with Drake. I find that to be very slimy.

  • @KULA That was rude of me. I apologize for reacting.

  • @Kip_McSmithers I just meant in addition to the underclass men, I didn’t know so many graduates transferred too.

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